Doctor Caught Faking 21 Drug Studies, Including Vioxx And Celebrex

The Wall Street Journal Health Blog has some “eye-popping” news — a doctor has been caught fabricating 21 drug studies, some of which were favorable to drugs that have since been pulled from the market — Merck’s Vioxx and Pfizer’s Bextra.

Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, Mass., has asked several anesthesiology journals to retract the studies, which appeared between 1996 and 2008, the WSJ reports. The hospital says its former chief of acute pain, Scott S. Reuben, faked data used in the studies.

The studies had nice things to say about other drugs as well, including Pfizer’s pain drugs Lyrica, Celebrex and Wyeth’s antidepressant Effexor XR.

When the WSJ called the doctor for comment, his lawyer said that Dr. Reuben “deeply regrets that this happened.”

Pfizer also issued a statement:”It is very disappointing to learn about Dr. Scott Reuben’s alleged actions,” Pfizer said in a statement to WSJ. “When we decided to support Dr. Reuben’s research, he worked for a credible academic medical center and appeared to be a reputable investigator.”

A New Low in Drug Research: 21 Fabricated Studies [WSJ Health Blog]
(Photo:Brooks Elliott)

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  1. Jim Topoleski says:

    but just like the financial markets people want the drug markets deregulated more as well.

    Can we now SEE why regulation can be a good thing?

  2. Gokuhouse says:

    What makes me wonder is how accurate are the studies that promote vaccines for children? Are these finally going to be questioned? Probably not.

    • Oranges w/ Cheese says:

      @Gokuhouse: What does that have anything to do with this? Or are you one of the ones that immediately jumps on the vaccines -> autism or other disability bandwagon?

      • Gokuhouse says:

        @Oranges w/ Cheese: @Tmoney02:

        LOL You are blind ignorant fools if you take everything you hear to be true. This story just stated that a doctor faked 21 drug studies, and he probably did this for money or gifts. Tell me honestly what makes you both trust every other study out there? Are you saying that these 21 studies are the only ones to ever be faked? You trust the scientific community and this doctor was the only one of them faking studies. He was trusted by many people to not lie about those drugs. What did he do though? He lied to many people about their safety. He is putting people at risk for his own benefit.

        I have educated myself on these matters probably more than you have. Unlike you though I’m not blind to people’s own greed and I don’t take everything I hear or read to be true. I question what people say and I do this for just about everything.

        • Tmoney02 says:

          @Gokuhouse: Just as I suspected, you refuse to accept any answer or evidence other than those that support your “theory”. Do you also belong to the Tin foil Hat society and World is flat association out of curiosity.

          Yes 1 man faked many drug studies.

          Vaccines were studied by at least 12 different people (most likely teams of people since we are only talking large studies) at 12 different institutions and all came up with the same answer. There is no link and Vaccines are perfectly safe.

          If you can’t see the difference (which I doubt you will) then there is no point in you ever bringing it up again or for anyone to engage you further.

        • Tmoney02 says:

          @Gokuhouse: Also it is interesting that you accuse so many of fraud and yet the only person in the vaccine “debate” that has faked a study regarding vaccinations and Autism is the doctor that started the Autism scare about vaccinations.

          THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism”

          Please see Hank Scorpio’s comment made at 10:23AM for the link.

          • Brontide says:

            @Tmoney02: Give up, these people will never listen. Somehow people can believe this tripe that vaccines are more harm than good, but still go to the dr or “alternative medicine” specialist every time they have a sniffle and can’t see the contradiction.

            The studies of both vaccine use and non-vaccine use are well know. Thanks to this vaccine scare mongering the US now has outbreaks of diseases that were though to be eradicated such as measles and polio in Nigeria where they distrust “western medicine” and thousands have been paralyzed and many more have become ill because of bad information spread by people who do not understand.

            Nobody will claim that vaccines can not and have not harmed individuals over the years, but only that their good for society dwarfs, by many order of magnitude, any harm they have on an individual. Getting you kids vaccinated is many times safer than the car ride to the pediatricians office to get the shots. Oh, and they don’t cause autism.

            • SteelersAreGo says:

              @snowmoon: The worst part is, this moron puts our children at risk with his blind paranoia.

            • MikeGrenade says:

              Even worse in this whole stupid controversy is the fact that even if they were right–even if vaccines did cause autism–the rate of occurrence is still infinitesimal compared to the number of people who would be sickened without the vaccine. It’s basically like saying you’d take polio outbreaks over a 0.1% chance of getting autism, which is a pretty good sign you’re fucking insane.

              • Brontide says:

                @MikeGrenade: Next thing they will be telling you is that the problems from polio are overblown, who needs to be vaccinated.

                Here in the US we no longer receive polio as a standard vaccine because the disease has been eliminated on this continent. We no longer need to be vaccinated en-masse for that virus and they have phased it out. If these people actually vaccinated their children maybe their children would not need to be!

      • Feminist Whore says:

        @Oranges w/ Cheese: Well, there’s the HPV vaccine, which was studied for about 3 years and approved for girls over a certain age, but it’s being given to girls as young as 8,9 years old. It was never tested on girls that young.

        Along with the ma$$ive lobbying that the producers of the vaccine are doing to have the vaccine mandated as a prerequisite to registering for school. Parents can opt-out, but the producer still gets a big fat pay day thanks to the other 99.9% of families who get the vaccine.

        On top of all that, the vaccine only treats a couple of specific strains of HPV, strains which in the developed world are routinely caught and treated long before any risk of cancer developes. A surprising number of my friends say their gynos told them not to bother getting the vaccine, since the yearly pelvic will catch it anyway.

        And then there is the occasional story about some woman dying because of some sort of bad reaction to it…

        also … you’re not one of those who jumps on the “they must be talking about autism” bandwagon evertime you hear a criticism of vaccines are you?

        • redkamel says:

          @♥♥♥: HPV vaccine is not approved for girls aged 8 and 9. Minimum age is 11. HPV is not mandated for schools, lobbying is irrelevant to vaccine efficacy. The vaccine treats the strains that cause 70% of cancers; that is clearly stated and there has never been a claim otherwise. These strains ARE routinely caught, if women go to regular checkups. They also cause cervical tissue to be burned off (painful) and hysterectomies. How old are your friends? Older than 12? if they are sexually active they probably already have HPV, in which case there really is no point in getting the vaccine.

          Thank you, I will be here all week!

      • RedwoodFlyer says:

        @Oranges w/ Cheese: What do you have against kids with easels?

    • Tmoney02 says:

      @Gokuhouse: why ask for studies when you don’t believe the huge list of ones already completed that found vaccines to be safe.(assuming you actually researched the issue and didn’t just take MTV VJ Jenny McCarthy’s word for it)

      If you don’t trust the scientific community the court system in three different federal cases agreed that there wasn’t a shred of evidence that vaccines pose a danger.

      [www.tampabay.com]

      Also you should educate yourself and check this out this NPR audio story/article:

      [www.npr.org]

      It has Paul Offit, the chief of infectious diseases at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia explaining why vaccines are important and how there has been “More than a dozen large scientific studies, however, have found no connection between vaccines and autism.”

      I hope that you will drop this, otherwise your just refusing to accept any answer other than what you want, which is bad science and the reason all this bunk got started.

      • oneandone says:

        @Tmoney02: Well-put – though I wasn’t a fan of the Offit interview on NPR. He actually perpetuated the exact problem that I think is exacerbating this vaccine fear craziness: the medical community’s tendency to be patronizing and get easily frustrated with people who don’t use scientific reasoning.

        It might not be fair, but they have to be a lot more patient and go to much greater lengths to win a lot of people’s trust on this, and doctors – and other scientists – are just not good at dealing with people they see as irrational, misinformed, or stupid.

        I think vaccines are great, but I can see why people are distrustful of the medical community. And news like this doesn’t help.

    • edwardso says:

      @Gokuhouse: There might be a slight chance vaccines cause disabilities, but smallpox, polio etc. DEFINITELY cause them. I’ll take my chances

  3. N.RobertMoses says:

    The overwhelming majority of these studies are out to prove something. If they don’t prove what the backers want, they never see th light of day.

  4. Hank Scorpio says:

    Yeah, he “deeply regrets that this happened.”

    He deeply regrets he got caught!

  5. Rhayader says:

    Still no reply fix I see.

    @N.RobertMoses: This is exactly right. There is always a desired result in these things, which immediately removes them from the realm of legitimate science. What Reuben did was despicable, but easily predictable given the atmosphere in which these kinds of studies are performed.

    The government is also highly involved in manipulation like this. For example, any studies attempting to define the medicinal benefits of marijuana are denied funding and, in effect, not allowed by the government. That is why all of the scientific research indicating legitimate medical uses for the drug is done abroad.

  6. edwardso says:

    @Rhayader: That is why I am conducting my own research…

  7. Blueskylaw says:

    This doctor didn’t work for YELP did he?

  8. Xay says:

    @Gokuhouse

    The studies on vaccine for children have been a lot more rigorous and are more replicable than the studies that have been cited as proving that vaccination causes autism.

    Speaking of faking studies: [www.timesonline.co.uk]

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @xay: What makes you believe vaccines for children are more rigorously tested? Where is your proof of this? And don’t show me a study by a doctor please.

      • SteelersAreGo says:

        @Gokuhouse: Who would you like to see a study by? God? Your mind’s made up. It’s exceptionally wrong, but clearly nothing in the scientific community exists to change your view.

      • floraposte says:

        @Gokuhouse: Why not? The nature of the study and the rigor of its review should be what matters. If somebody simply refuses to believe material because of the profession of the researcher, that’s an indication of a prejudice that overwhelms judgment.

      • RedwoodFlyer says:

        @Gokuhouse: OMG! COTYear! “Show me proof…..but not by anyone who would actually have knowledge about the subject matter”

        This is why I don’t trust commenters w/a Pokemon in their name.

  9. crashedpc says:

    I’ll just say that if I become evil dictator of the world, I will title myself Chief of Acute Pain.

  10. goodpete says:

    The fact is that drug studies are done pretty much the same way that financial instruments are rated. The company pays for a few different studies (or ratings) and cherry picks the ones that come out favorably, and quashes the others with NDAs.

    Of course, this turned out REALLY WELL for those mortgage backed securities and didn’t end up harming ANYONE.

    What happened with the financial instrument rating system was that the rating agencies were given incentive to provide positive ratings, because it meant more business in the future. That’s obviously the case with these drug studies and their associated doctors. I mean, who can blame the guy for nudging the results a little if it meant a lifetime of comfortable living with the assurance he’ll be called back many times to do studies by these drug companies?

  11. Hank Scorpio says:

    @Gokuhouse

    If you’re referring to that “vaccines cause Autism” BS, the “research” that originally suggest that has been shown to be flawed, possibly even faked.

    I suggest you read this:

    [www.timesonline.co.uk]

    Also, anyone who thinks that should know that signs of Autism tend to manifest around the same age that children typically get vaccines. There is no causation relationship there.

    It’s actually pretty sad that parents aren’t getting their kids vaccinated against these diseases because of a bogus study.

    • oneandone says:

      @Hank Scorpio: There’s more to it than just the bogus study – its “findings” resonated with people who were already distrustful of doctors & medicine in general. A lot of that is for good reason: most people have had to deal with unpleasant side effects, poor outcomes, or expensive and unpleasant procedures & drugs that they don’t see any benefit from. Things aren’t explained well (and especially not in terms scientifically illiterate people can understand) and a lot of doctors don’t deal well with any questions about their decisions. Most also don’t have time to explain things in depth to their patients & allay what the patient sees as legitimate fears or concerns.

      There was a strong context of distrust and dislike for the medical community in general, and the vaccines=autism stuff hit a nerve with people who were ready to believe the worst about the medical community. Better communication with lay people & realizing that their ‘irrational’ concerns need to be addressed would have done a lot to prevent this kind of thing.

  12. bohemian says:

    If you look at the drugs in question all are fairly new expensive drugs that all had some scary side effects once they showed up on the market. Vioxx and Celebrex were found to be causing heart issues and killed some people. Lyrica has a laundry list of side effect that are worse than what it claims to be curing. Lyrica also had an increased risk of sending people into suicidal tail spins. Effexor has some crazy side effects too. Supposedly if you quit taking it, not only do people start having horrible withdrawl symptoms many end up hospitalized.

    This is just the tip of the iceberg. The FDA has been populated with drug company insiders for far too long. I quit taking anything that isn’t old enough to be generic after a long list of new and improved (and expensive) drugs either damn near killed me or had intolerable side effects. All were either asthma or arthritis drugs, not where you expect to find high risks.

    • Jonbo298 says:

      @bohemian: I was on Effexor XR for a few years. Once I had to come off for financial reasons (switching jobs and insuranced increased cost 10x, not lying). The withdrawal side effects were HORRIBLE to say the least, but once I got past it (Took a few weeks), I was a better man.

      The med did a good job though because I could tell if I missed a dosage that I would slip back hard into depression. The withdrawal was just insane.

      • stacye says:

        @Jonbo298: You were lucky. My husband went through the brain buzzes and sweats for 2 months. I’ve read some people have the brain buzzes for years after coming off of it.

        I’m really surprised that drug is still on the market.

        • bohemian says:

          @stacye: What really scared the hell out of me was someone who was in on the Lyrica trials dropped out because it was giving her suicidal urges. Another trial participant hung themselves in an exam room while she was there.

          I had a CNP insist repeatedly that I start taking Lyrica. She did this to the point of refusing to fill my other prescriptions (all old generic drugs). One doctor misdiagnosed a degenerative problem in my back as Fibro and this CNP made it her mission to get me to take that crap (Lyrica). Never mind that about a month later another specialist found what was causing the pain and properly addressed the actual physical problem. This CNP was heavily invested in what the drug reps were offering. I am assuming she would get a significant kickback for prescribing certain drugs.

  13. edwardso says:

    I really hope any gyno who says that HPV will be caught and treated with a yearly pelvic exam isn’t so flip about condom use. I know plenty of women who don;t make it in yearly for an exam. HPV is a serious problem and very, common. While it may be treated before it becomes cancer there are other issues it can cause, like infertility

    • floraposte says:

      @edwardso: It can also affect areas that don’t get examined by an OB/GYN, and some of us actually would rather we not get bits of our innards removed if we can avoid it with a simple vaccine series.

      I’m outside the official recommended age for the vaccine but I decided that the benefits still outweighed the risks for me.

  14. pollyannacowgirl says:

    This is why I don’t take any presciption drugs. I’ll only take something that has an established set of side effects and efficacy, like aspirin or guafenesin (sp). That’s it.

  15. mythago says:

    Yes, but are they taking it seriously?!

  16. Subsound says:

    They need an independent panel to do the testing and certifications, rather then a panel to just review their “published results” that the company wants them to see.

    Not that this is an autism debate, but people are much more likely (a doc giving a talk about it said almost 100x) to die of the diseases vaccines will prevent then get autism. Add into that that non vaccinated kids can infect kids pretty rapidly that are too young to get it.

  17. edwardso says:

    @pollyannacowgirl: That’s great, but it doesn’t work for everyone. I take natural remedies whenever I can but sometimes I need perscriptions

  18. Rhayader says:

    @edwardso: Yeah me too. Unfortunately I don’t think my findings will be published or approved by the FDA. Doesn’t mean I’ll stop any time soon though.

  19. Rhayader says:

    (Was referring to the medicinal marijuana, not the scrips).

    In other news, DAMN THIS REPLY CRAP!

  20. nakedscience says:

    “natural remedies” have been studdied about as well as this 1 doctor studied. There are no checks and balances for “natural remdidies” — someone says they work, and you take their word for it. No clinical studies, nothing.

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @nakedscience: You have no idea of how “natural remedies” are stifled here in the U.S. You should do a little research on FDA raids before commenting on them.

      Check out this article from years ago. If you think the FDA has gotten any better you’re blind. FDA Raids

      • redkamel says:

        man, I tho@Gokuhouse: boy, I thought you were going to write “you have no idea how natural remedies are MADE in the US” since thats actually true. You can totally go buy natural remedies at health stores. FDA raids are because companies dont, and have no requirement to, make sure ingredients are consistent. Also they make outlandish claims, and have no proof they even work. Further, they often rely on “exotic” sounding roots etc to get people to buy them. While many natural remedies do work, and I would believe you if you said you know a lot about them, I am extremely wary of any one who likes natural remedies but has no idea they are unregulated or what any of the ingredients do/where they come from/how long they have been in use, or believes they are far better. Truly educated natural medicine people know this, and usually just buy the raw material or pure extracts rather than the hodgepodge pills usually sold, and dont hesitate to use western medicine when something goes beyond teas and poweders and into the “I need a designed chemical”

  21. nakedscience says:

    “remedies” — I promise I can spell.

  22. Brontide says:

    One of the tricks by drug manufacturers that I find extremely distasteful is the shotgun study approach. They commission 20 studies and then cherry pick the ones that have the best results ( for their bottom line ).

    This is why I fully support “registered” studies for FDA use. Drug manufacturers would be required to pre-register any studies for a product or compound so that the FDA can review all findings before making a decision.

    While this can not stop outright fraud as in the above, it would make known any other contradictory studies that the manufacturer buried and did not use for FDA certification because it didn’t have the right outcome.

    • RedwoodFlyer says:

      @snowmoon: A voice of reason! I certainly agree…..no need to socialize med. development, but it’s dumb not to have more oversight for the trials!

  23. nakedscience says:

    lol Gokuhouse owned.

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @nakedscience: I’m not sure how I was “owned”. Please clarify where this happened. Did I back down somewhere and say I was beaten? I’m sorry if I’m not checking this post enough for your satisfaction and replying to everyone soon enough for you.

  24. Rhayader says:

    @nakedscience: If you are referring to marijuana when you say “natural remedies”, that is not exactly true. In the US, legitimate research has been prohibited by the government, so yeah nothing noteworthy is done here.

    However, in other countries there is truly scientific research being done. For example, there are a large number of studies being done in Israel with controlled dosages, double-blinds, and other common scientific techniques.

  25. gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy says:

    You can pry my Celebrex out of my cold, arthritic hands. Dare ya.

  26. grapedog says:

    I’m sorry, all these vaccinations do is serve to weaken children today. My parents didn’t need tons of vaccinations. I didn’t receive tons of vaccinations. My kids will not receive a ton of vaccinations either. To each his own, but I’m not going to handicap my child with a weakened immune system…

  27. Applekid ┬──┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ) says:

    “Eye-popping” news? Is that a new drug side effect?

  28. bohemian says:

    NPR had a bit on the news this morning regarding the FDA. The Obama admin is considering a few people for the head of this agency. All have extensive knowledge of pharmaceuticals but are extremely outspoken and skeptical about the corruption in the pharma industry.

  29. nakedscience says:

    Rhayader, I was actually not refering to Marijuana, which is a wonderful plant that I believe should be 100% legalized, but especially for medical reasons! A friend of mine has severe pain and the only thing that really helps him is marijuana — anything else makes it impossible for him to live, but marijuana takes care of the pain, or at least takes the edge off, AND he can still live a normal life without being drugged up constantly.

    I was talking about those natural remedies that are sold on tv and in the drug store that you piss out about 4 hours after you take them.

  30. Stream Of Consciousness says:

    No….I would never have imagined somebody would do this. Screw pharmies!!

  31. Rhayader says:

    Oh haha ok cool. Yeah there is a lot of “herbal remedy” crap out there that does nothing but encourage false hope.

    Marijuana, on the other hand, has a long history of successful medicinal use which our government refuses to acknowledge.

  32. ElizabethD says:

    OT! I have a consumerist complaint about Consumerist.com’s reply comment function. Should I launch an EECB?

    JK, but seriously this is annoying.

  33. nakedscience says:

    Gokuhouse, don’t show a study by a doctor? Does that leave out scientists, too? WHO ELSE IS SUPPOSED TO DO THE STUDIES? What the hell, man. You are a freak.

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @nakedscience: Yes because this article is showing how doctors lie. I would like you to show me a study about how much tougher the testing is on drugs and vaccines for children by an independent company. A company that has no financial gain by posting good results that show how everyone is trying to take care of the children. You won’t find one because people treat children like they do adults. Their bodies are much weaker than ours in many ways, including their immune systems. They cannot withstand the barrage of drugs they are given at such a young age.

      • floraposte says:

        @Gokuhouse: They withstand it considerably better than the barrage of diseases they used to get, as evidenced by their exponentially improved survival rate.

        And that’s the point that vaccinephobes seem not to get. They object to the fact that cures and inoculations themselves carry risks, but they fail to grasp that 1) everything efficacious carries some risk and 2) there’s a massive, crushing scale difference between the tremendous risk of doing nothing and the modest to infinitesimal risk of disease prevention. Stasis may feel safe, but it’s often one of the riskiest things around.

        • RedwoodFlyer says:

          @floraposte: Nice!

          I contracted Malaria because a family I stayed with when touring India was very anti-modern medicine. Thank god I was able to GTFO and seek help from modern medicine. I don’t care if a malaria preventative gives me a sore arm…sure beats dying!

          Don’t worry though, most vaccinephobes should Darwin themselves out of the genepool soon enough (unless, of course, they’re condomphobes)

  34. nakedscience says:

    Uh, Gokuhouse? I have done research. And I’m not a moronic anti-vaccine nut, nor do I listen to mornic anti-vaccine nuts, but good try.

    Your body canNOT feasibly process all those pills. YOU END UP PISSING THEM ALL OUT. And most of those “natural remedies” are basically just empty ingrediants. So, go ahead and waste your money on psuedoscience, I don’t care.

  35. nakedscience says:

    ONE doctor liked, Gokuhouse.

    Oh, that same doctor? Yeah, he lied about vaccines being unsafe. LOL.

    You’re kind of dense.

  36. nakedscience says:

    “Gokuhouse: If you vaccinate your children as a good little sheep then you won’t have any problem…I mean vaccines are 100% effective…… “

    OH COME ON, stop being an idiot. Do you know what HERD IMMUNITY is? Something tells me you don’t.

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @nakedscience: Are you trying to be ironic?

      The difference between me and you is I care about human freedoms and you would rather force your views upon me by laws. I would rather everyone have the choice between drugging their families and you believe that it is not a human right. I actually care about other people, you only care about yourself. All I want is for it to not be required to vaccinate and drug my children. You seem to believe that it’s better to force people into practices they don’t believe. You need to re-evaluate your views on human freedoms.

      What country are you from? China? Russia? Cuba? At least you carry their views.

      • RedwoodFlyer says:

        @Dumbass:

        Attn: Dumbass…. The reason that “the man” forces you to get certain vaccines is that it would be in poor taste to incinerate idiots alive. There are 2 or 3 vials of smallpox in the world, and that’s enough to scare bio terror-experts shitless.

        My point? Since it would only take one or two idiots to reinfect everyone else, it’s important that we eradicate certain conditions.

        I really hope that you have some sort of opposition to vehicular braking systems the next time you’re driving on a pier.

  37. nakedscience says:

    “I actually care about other people, you only care about yourself.”

    Uh, really? You do realize that if you don’t vaccinate your children, OTHER CHILDREN AND ADULTS WILL DIE, right?

    Therei s a REASON that polio is not around anymore: VACCINATIONS.

    There is a REASON why there have been many measles outbreaks lately: PEOPLE NOT VACCINATING THEIR CHILDREN.

    Not vaccinating your children is child abuse, and abuse towards humans as well. Shame on you.

    • Gokuhouse says:

      @nakedscience: You obviously would rather have zero freedoms and be healthy. You have made your mind up. You do not want your children or your grandchildren to have any rights about their own bodies. It will be nice one day when we’re required to be sterilized because of over population, or we are forced to kill our unborn babies because we can’t have anymore boys or anymore girls.

      • Hank Scorpio says:

        @Gokuhouse:
        Wow. You’re the master of the slippery slope! You’re also the only person here who doesn’t realize how big of a fool you’ve made yourself look with this thread. Good job.

        • Gokuhouse says:

          @Hank Scorpio: I am simply stating my beliefs. Everyone pushed me down the slope. I didn’t willfully go down it. My first comment was very small and straight forward. I am an advocate of personal freedoms. It seems most people in the USA are turning toward socialism or communism or some mixed form of both of these. It will get to that point some day, especially when we have citizens running in that direction. I really like having the ability to choose what I do each day, and I like that my boys will have that same choice when they are old enough to choose for themselves.

          The biggest issue we have here is about what freedoms should people still have. Some (nearly all) of the posters here act as if we should have less freedoms now then we did a few years back. How many people in this country think this way also? Probably a similar proportion. If we keep giving our freedoms away to the point where we don’t have any left we’ll never be able to get them back. The more freedom we have the easier it is to attain more freedom. The more freedom we have the more power we as citizens will have in this nation. But if we let them slip away as we have been for many years now we will not have any basic(what the constitution gives us) freedoms left.

          • Hank Scorpio says:

            @Gokuhouse:
            And you think saying things like “most people in the USA are turning toward socialism or communism” is going to make you look like less of a fool? Or the fact that you somehow equate major public health issues with losing all of our personal freedoms? How, exactly, is being a responsible citizen and getting your kids immunized against dangerous diseases the same thing as “giving our freedoms away”?

            Either you’re extremely paranoid (to the point where you should seek professional help), or watch a little too much FOX “news” and listen to a little too much Rush Limbaugh. Or, most likely, both of those things are true.

          • henneko says:

            @Gokuhouse: So it’s communism, eh? I take it that you are accepting the fiscal risk that your unvaccinated child (or yourself, or whoever else) may contract whatever disease, and pay for your own choice out of your own pocket? And should your choice cause damage to another person or their child through infection from yours, you shall pay to remedy their damages as well?

            Or do you think everyone else should pay should your choices end in poor outcomes? If so, then you’ve got a long career ahead of you in the banking industry.

      • RedwoodFlyer says:

        @Gokuhouse: One Southwest flight out of Orlando is all one needs in order to be pro-sterilization/abortion. Or they can just read your comments and realize that we’re doomed.

  38. Rhayader says:

    Interesting debate between Gokuhouse and nakedscience. While I understand the public health concerns leading toward a policy of mandating immunizations, Gokuhouse makes important points regarding civil liberties as defined by our Constitution.

    I think, though, that ultimately the question boils down to whether, by avoiding immunization, one is harming others or is just harming oneself. I think it’s a rational conclusion to say that a person infected with small pox or polio poses a significant risk to other people. So, that person should either be immunized to reduce that risk, or be quarantined and kept away from the public at large.

    Of course, it is worth noting that we have many laws on the books that do not exist simply to prevent violations of the Constitutional “live and let live” policy. Our drug laws are probably the most dramatic and egregious example. Sill though, I believe that ultimately these laws are in the wrong, not the Constitution. The test of illegality should be the infringement on one’s rights or well-being by another, and I think that walking through downtown NYC without the proper vaccinations could easily pass this test.

    • edwardso says:

      @Rhayader: well put

    • redkamel says:

      @Rhayader: I’d also like to add its about how far gov’t will allow people to go to put themselves at risk due to no education or misinformation.

      Whats the difference between riding a motorcycle without a helmet, missing immunizations, and drug abuse? all put yourself at risk for disease, except only one is illegal. And the risk to harm ratio is probably about the same.

      You have to keep in mind though, that anti-vaccine people arent really talking about “their right to make a decision”, they are talking about “their right to make a decision for someone who can’t”. Its not the parents that get sick, its the kids. How many of those parents do you think wish they, or their parents, had never gotten vaccinated? I’d be interested to know.

      On a side note since I am ranting now, my ex-professor used to ask people at animal-research rallies to sign a form essentially saying “if I or my loved ones ever get sick, I will not accept or agree to any medications or surgery derived from animal testing”. Not one ever signed.

  39. HogwartsAlum says:

    I’m surprised there isn’t peanut butter spilling out of the capsules in the picture.

    • RedwoodFlyer says:

      @HogwartsAlum:

      Don’t you realize that salmonella is a natural inhibitor of autism? The big medical lobby wants solmonella removed from our food (what’s next…asking us to remove vitamins and minerals?) since more autism = more $$$ for the doctors to buy yachts with. This is PROVEN by the fact that a single doctor lied!

      Show me ONE study by someone who’s not a doctor, scientist, nose-breather, or graduate that proves otherwise!

  40. ageshin says:

    It just goes to prove that the FDA must be given the money to do it’s own studies independent of comercil intrests. The FDA hast to be made truly independent and objective.

  41. Rhayader says:

    @redkamel: Well I think there is a difference between avoiding immunization, and something like using a drug or riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Avoiding an immunization has a high potential for harming other people. The other two really only have the potential to harm the person making the decision. I suppose we could argue the drug issue if we wanted, but you’ll have a very hard time getting me to admit that one individual’s private use of drugs represents a demonstrable encroachment upon the rights or well-being of others.

    And one more thing. You say this is the case of the government “allowing people to put themselves at risk”. I would say that the Constitution gives the government absolutely no grounds on which to justify protecting people from harming themselves; they are obliged to “allow” people to hurt themselves. The essential function of our government should simply be keeping people from violating each other’s rights or causing each other harm. It absolutely should not be protecting us from ourselves.

  42. banmojo says:

    this d-bag should lose his licence, have to pay a BIG fine (over and above what he made from the drug companies when doing these bogus studies, which was a LOT I promise you), then have to do 10,000 hours community service to boot.