It's his boss's uncle, not his. Just sayin'...

Now I heard that in some apartment buildings you DO need a cable box to get the new digital signal, even if you have a cable-ready TV. In fact, in our apartment building, where the cable is free, Comcast came and installed digital boxes in all the apartments (we already had one) and our cable comes through a preinstalled cable in the wall. Is it possible that this guy was incorrect?

@morganlh85: The new digital signal has nothing to do with cable.

@mgy: This sounds like it has something to do with it to me. I could be reading it wrong.

"However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost."

I'm reading that to mean that if Cablevision uses all-digital delivery, you would need their cable box to use their services.

@dddoistutter: @morganlh85: Obviously not, since Cablevision agreed to do it after he talked to a supervisor.

The point of the letter is that Cablevision tried to force upsell him to a more expensive services.

If he is just looking to get his local channels why not get a converter box and skip paying cablevision anything?

Cablevision has dropped all analog channels from their system in some areas, so you do need a box. Other cable companies carry both analog and digital channels, so you don't need a box to get the analog channels. Cablevision only carries digital channels, which frees up bandwidth for HD channels. Much in the same way you would need a converter box for satellite, you will need one for Cablevision. It may work without a box if you have a tv with a built in digital tuner. Comcast is doing this in some markets as well. Eventually all cable systems will go this route. See this article. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/18/AR2008121802613.html

You have seen the scuzzy ads Cablevision has been running featuring a former WNBC reporter (who was in one of those fake newscast financial infomercials):

@mgy: Your wrong or rather your not understanding the discussion.

In order to get digital cable, which many apartments ONLY provide through a contract with their cable company, you need a cable box (this is how Cable managed to get around the legal requirement not to force you to need a cable box.)

Just like on air tv there are now two flavors of cable, digital, and analog.

Is it possible that Cablevision simply doesn't offer any analog services any more?

"However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost."

OK, there are sleazy salespeople out there. Fact. Been a fact for longer than recorded history. Does that require such a whine? Folks, this ceased to be news about three weeks after the internet came into fashion as a public utility. We've heard all the stories, and this is just a mote of dust on the pile of crap that goes on in the world. I certainly hope we haven't raised a generation of people who go through life blind to this, and who are shocked when it finally does happen to them. Life sucks, it isn't fair, everyone is out for himself, and you have to watch out for yourself at every turn. So?

My problem with cable companies is that they tend to ignore the existence of commercially available QAM tuners. For example, the cable TV provider in my area provides about 80 channels on their expanded basic analog service. However, I only receive about 20 unencrypted QAM channels (which has the same channels as the $10/month basic only package). As an added bonus, most of the channels do not have a virtual channel information, leaving stations like "TBS" to be assigned to channel "110#4" (which is usually channel 7 on the rented digital converter box). I really wish that the FCC would step in and require that their unencrypted QAM service provide equivalent service to the expanded basic digital package (complete with real channel metadata like callsign and channel).

@valen: QAM tends to be digital channels which means (a little) higher quality stuff.... FCC only mandates they give out local news channels for free.... its their business plan to earn more money, to get u to subscribe to their digital service....

I understand that constant readers of the Consumerist are knowledgeable about these facts, but I am very unhappy with the way this forum is going. So far everyone has something negative to say about this report. This story is no different than any other story on the Consumerist.

As a CableVision prisoner for all my life, I completely understand this guy's frustrations with trying to get something so simple hooked up. I go through this once a year when I have to change the billing name from mine to my wife, then a year later change it back so we can always get the over priced (and least expensive) Triple Play.

CableVision is as bad if not worse than AT&T, BestBuy, Sprint, and well EVERY large conglomerate out there that is imposing its will were its not needed or wanted.

People complain when they have no idea what they are talking about. Get a converter box so you dont need to pay monthly for those same channels and its done.

what kind of installer are you?

@milrtime83: Yeah, I don't get that. Why pay even $15 a month when for about $15 (after the coupon discount)you can get a converter and never pay anything else.

Also, I can't imagine how bad a company would have to be for the OP to recommend Verizon Customer Service over them, but the discussion he recounts here certainly doesn't describe it. This complaint sounds like a CSR who has been told he has to meet a marketing quota (or his supervisor has) and to meet that quota, sell a box and free HBO trial to EVERY new customer.

I also wonder if they end up charging this guy a sizable installation fee for hooking up basic cable that would have been waived had he gotten the box and free trial.

@CyrusOpeth: This is a good article to reinforce the ongoing problems with Cablevision and acts as further evidence to weigh for anyone who might be considering getting their service. If the article helps one extra person avoid being scammed at Cablevision, then it has done its job.

morganlh85
Asked:
"Is it possible that Cablevision simply doesn't offer any analog services any more?"

Under the FCC "must carry" rule, they might have dropped all the analog fluff channels one might get with basic cable, but they have to carry, un-encrypted in analog, the available local channels. As cable companies try to remain competitive with HD, on-demand, phone and internet, their systems are full (bandwidth-wise) and going to all-digital gains them space for services. Additionally, all-digital systems requiring a box reduce pirating and multi-view splits.

As mentioned above, it's at least possible that Cablevision in Brooklyn has ceased analog service, thus generally necessitating a digital box. A regular "cable-ready" TV won't cut it (though TV's with ATSC tuners may pickup some of the digital channels, they may not appear properly, etc.). The know-it-all OP didn't bother to inquire as to why the box was required, he simply stated that the rep was wrong. As a former Cable company CSR (not Cablevision), I generally HATED talking to people who worked as "theater installers". They always think they know better than you do and usually won't listen. While in this instance it appears (for the moment) that the OP was indeed correct, that doesn't really excuse his arrogance and failure to inquire as to why the box might be required. Had he inquired as to why the box was required, and was met with a "it just is" response, I'd have more sympathy. But as reported, he just immediately refuted the CSR's position based solely on his personal knowledge.

@Klay: They also have to carry the local digital channels unencrypted.

@Pylon83: Digital Cable isn't in the ATSC format, it is QAM. Alot of newer TV's have QAM tuners as well as ATSC. But unless you have a cable card, the channels don't get mapped to the correct channel.

@CyrusOpeth:

Young people who are growing up and moving out probably never had to deal with their cable company before.

This is a good lesson for them to learn and remember, and it should help them question other business practices and avoid or detect incompetent/pushy/lying salespeople.

@Klay:
That's actually not true. Someone above posted some information (while not properly cited) that is from the accurate re: cable companies going all digital. If a cable company chooses to go ALL digital, they no longer have to broadcast the must-carry stations in Analog. So long as they make boxes available to all customers (in order to ensure those customers can still get the must-carry stations), they can completely cease analog service. Further, they can charge for the boxes. For now, all I can cite to is the DTV.gov site, which is where the passage above comes from, but I know I've read it in an FCC opinion recently which I'll try to dig up.

Cablevision boxes have those funny little chip-cards inserted into them (see the far right of the post image). Any cable box will do on your line, as long as it has YOUR card inserted into it (I used to be a customer at one point in Brooklyn).

There's a good chance the box ISN'T required, but that the little card/authentication dongle is, and therefore a box or ANY card reader would be required?

Insofar as I know, this card is not a Cablecard. It's just a small plastic card with a smart chip on it that inserts into the front of the Scientific Atlanta boxes. They never told me what the card was for, but the one time I pulled it out, the cable shut off.

@CharlieInSeattle:
That's true. I made a broad generalization that many TV's with ATSC tuners also have QAM tuners. That generalization, like most generalizations, isn't 100% accurate, but most higher-end TVs have both. I should have been more clear.

They might have dropped unencrypted cable due to high cable theft in the area. Anyone could splice and get a piece of the action. Encrypted cable needs a "box" that houses a cable card that then decrypts the data. This isn't really a converter box but something that decrypts the data.

But from the sound of the call it seems the salesman just wanted to up sell.

can you buy the same model from ebay or craigslist, and avoid the rental fee? Am I am wrong, but cable companies are required to allow you to bring your own box (assuming it is compatible), correct?

I used to work in a cable call center. I somehow survived without hanging myself by the phone cord.... Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, this may not be the rep or supervisors fault. This may be a training or communication issue within the company.

As someone pointed out, their (full) basic service may require a box now, but due to must carry regulations, you should still get the local channels on a box free plan. Usually amounted by about 14 channels or so on that plan with my company.

Now it may be like my center, servicing so many areas with so many conflicting rules and packages. They simply may not have -known- that they should be offering the local channel only basic.

Of course it's also true, and probably more likely, that the company leans on the supervisors and the supervisors lean on the agents, and so the agents lean on the customers like this. I hate it, but it does happen.

I used to work for Cablevision, in their tech support for internet and voip. They tried to get us to do the upselling for services as well, but that flopped.

Did you know that 2 years ago, their tech support department got a new director? he was from t-Mobile. The first thing he said to the techs was "You're not tech support reps. You're customer service reps who do a little technical work on the side."

Yeah, half the building quit that day, they were so insulted. To my knowledge, he never said it again.

@Plates: I honestly didn't see anything deceptive in that ad. They stated truthfully that people who get their TV over an antenna could lose their reception, and cable is an alternative. What's the problem?

Granted, they don't discuss other alternatives (such as a converter box), but I also don't expect a commercial for a gym to say, "Alternatively, you can jog in your neighborhood and use resistance bands at home."

@attackgypsy:

My call center wasn't CableVision, but had almost the exact thing happen. I worked in tech, but was expected to upsell upsell upsell. It's one of the reasons I'm not there anymore. I'm not a sales guy, I'm a tech guy. I'm better at fixing stuff than selling it.

Don't know if he got the same warm reception as your guy did or not, it happened just before I joined, but it wouldn't surprise me to find it did.

What does "Digital Cable Ready" (or "DCR") mean?

Today, a television designated "Digital Cable Ready" (or "DCR") is able, when used in conjunction with a separate CableCARD™ module, to receive one-way digital cable signals - with full image quality - without the need for a traditional cable set-top box.

If the TV was Digital Cable Ready (which I'm guessing is the case) then he needs -no- set top box, regardless of whether the signal is digital or analog.

I can't yet find the actual FCC order/opinion, but here is an article that outlines the current must-carry rules, particularly with regard to dual-carriage. Essentially, if the cable operator still transmits ANYTHING in analog, they have to transmit all of the must-carry stations in analog. However, if they choose to go all-digital, they are excepted from the dual-carriage requirement provided they ensure that every subscriber is provided with a box. However, there is no requirement that the box be provided at no charge. I think the essence of that requirement is to ensure the operators have sufficient boxes on-hand to service all of their customers.

"Last September, the FCC said hybrid analog-digital cable operators had to carry must carry stations in analog and digital until 2012. All-digital cable systems were exempt from any dual-carriage obligation, however."

[www.multichannel.com]

@Wombatish: Especially since he just wanted channels 2-12, this is probably the best set up for a 90 year old man. He will be able to change the channel with the TV's remote, just like with the rabbit ears.

No extra remote, no on screen channel guide, no PPV, no DVR.

Just simple, basic, service.

@milrtime83:
This certainly seems like a better solution and less expensive. One time investment, and no cable company involved.

@Wombatish:
While your right about the CableCARD issues, I think your making quite a leap in logic in assuming the subscriber involved here has a "DCR". He's 95 and has been using over-the-air. I think it's unlikely that he has a fairly new, fairly expensive CableCARD ready TV. More likely, he's got an older TV that is simply "Cable" ready (in the analog sense).

@milrtime83: I have my box and new antenna, and my digital reception is lousy (I have no idea what I'm going to do when the full conversion takes place).

People have been putting too much blame on the recipients for their supposed unpreparedness, but the landscape for many of us is just not built for digital signals.

Time Warner (my neighborhood monopoly) supposedly offers a basic service, but actually obtaining this requires traveling through the desert, into the cave, and slaying the dragon at the third right turn.

@milrtime83: Maybe because he can't pick up everything (or anything) with an antenna?

When the problem is with ONE agent like this (and not even the supervisor), it's safer to assume that the agent is an idiot and/or misinformed (probably the latter; how often does someone call in asking for basic-basic service?), then to assume that this is some conspiracy on the part of the company.

@jdsmn:
Most, but not all, of the boxes on Craiglist or eBay are stolen. Motorola and Scientific Atlantic, the companies that make those boxes, don't generally sell them to the public. A lot of times the boxes on Craigslist and eBay have come from customers who get their service shut off for non-payment, never turn it back on and never return the box. You're really taking a gamble that the box you are buying wasn't "stolen" from your provider, because if it was they'll never activate it for you. Further, not all cable boxes work with all head-end systems. If you're insistent on buying your own, find out what models your cable company uses first and look for one of those.

@lihtox:
Very true. The agents probably/usually get commission on the boxes and have a financial incentive to push them on people.

@Garbanzo: It is overtly scuzzy, especially for older folks who may not fully understand the new procedure (their target demographic, judging by the spokesperson and set). The message basically states that many people will lose their signal, but if you get their craptastic package, you won't be one of them.

This is just one step away from simply displaying a giant set of boobs along with the message, "switch to Cablevision!"

Comcast does this exact same thing. I had to wait in a long line and they told approx 10 customers this, whom in turn got the cable box. F them. I even told the one customer, and they were mad.

Comcast says oh our basic service is $40(ish) and I said uhm no I want the basic service on the website for $20. The rep responded "But that's just broadcast channels you don't want that!"

Why would I want basic cable when everything I watch is on broadcast stations??

well, you're actually reading it wrong.

"This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box."
if the TV is digital cable ready, it means it is NOT an analog tv. AKA, not needing one of the company's "cable boxes".

Pretty simple.

@Ryan Theriault:
The OP's letter doesn't indicate that the TV is "digital cable ready", it just indicates the TV is "Cable-ready". As I stated above, it's quite a leap in logic to assume that a 95 year old man, who has been watching only OTA TV would have a new, fairly expensive Digital Cable Ready TV. Not that it's impossible, but I think the safer assumption is that he has an older, analog "cable ready" TV.

It's entirely possible that Cablevision may have done something like what Shaw is piloting up here in Canada: The building in question may have been "upgraded" to be digital-only, as a measure to prevent cable theft. If that's the case, then a cable box would be required, to decode the digital stream into something the TV can use. Without the box, the TV can't decode the encrypted signal that cable companies tend to use.

@SilverStar95:
In the US, they can't do it building-by-building. Dual-carriage must-carry rules apply if the cable operator in question transmits ANY analog signals over the system. If the entire system in the area is all-digital, they can require boxes for ALL channels, but if it's not 100% digital-only, what Shaw is doing in Canada would not be tolerated by the FCC.

This isn't specific to Cablevision. I have TiVos with cablecards and my bill EVERY month has the rental fee for that cards (no problem) PLUS an HD cable box *I DON'T HAVE*. When I have hours of free time to argue, I occasionally call them and complain and they will not budge from the "fact" that to get HD service you MUST have a cable box (completely ignoring the fact that cablecard+TiVo Series 3 IS the cable box in my house) and they will not remove the charge.

It's extremely frustrating.