Tribute Band Scammed By Fake Check
Joe's tribute band was booked by a man named Rodrigues Collin for a gig in San Francisco, but it turned out to be an advance fee fraud. Joe says he discovered that Collin made contact with dozens of tribute bands at the same time, so he's contacting them himself to warn them. Here's how it happened to him.
Rodrigues Collin contacted me about hiring my band, Hollywood U2, for a party in San Francisco at the Flood Mansion (a Sacred Heart school that rents out it's ballroom for parties) on Jan 31st. I book primarily over the internet. He called me on my cell, many times, and we negotiated a rate of $6500 for two performances and I sent him a contract and asked for a standard deposit of 20% plus enough to book plane tickets and hotels for the band.
He sent a cashier's check to me for $4500. This is typically how booking a tribute band works - either bank wire or cashier's check. I deposited the check in my business account at WAMU on Vine street here in Los Angeles.
The check cleared. The guy called a day or two later and said he had bills to cover on his end and demanded to book the flights, hotel, equipment, etc. from Spain. He demanded I send the money back to him right away via Western Union, an office in Madrid. I did so but only sent him $3200, telling him I had to keep the other $1300 as this was the 20% deposit for the band. Western Union accepted the money but Rodrigues called me several times to tell me he couldn't get the money and that I had go back to Western Union to get the money back and go somewhere else.
I called Western Union and they said they had to verify why I was sending such a large amount and put me through to the fraud division. I did not understand why I was being questioned and was frankly extremely agitated by the whole transaction thus far, so I told Western Union why I was sending $3200 to this guy and what my band did and they were extremely difficult and I had to talk to a supervisor. All the while this Rodrigues fellow was emailing and calling non-stop.
Western Union released the money to him finally and he still continued to e-mail and call telling me his wife was now diagnosed with cancer and he needed the remaining $1300 to pay a doctor in Nigeria. At this point I started to become very suspicious and after a few more semi-threatening e-mails from him I stopped all further communication.
It is now January 16th. Yesterday, the 15th, I noticed that there was -$4100 in my bank account. Obviously the $4500 check was somehow "uncleared" after a week, and an additional 400 dollars have now been eaten up out of my account.
I am curious as to how the check would have cleared in the first place and why now, one week later, it is being reversed. However, I am obviously a vicitim of a fraudulent cashier's check scheme. I have all documentation, western union receipts, his cell phone number and email, as well as the list of other tribute bands he originally e-mailed, as on the original e-mail he cc'd many many bands...this was clearly a mistake on his part. I have sent an e-mail to all of them warning them. One styx tribute band in sacramento responded to my email and was in the process of doing the exact same transaction and actually just yesterday was sending Rodrigues $3000 via western union. The styx tribute band was able to stop the transaction in time, thanks to my call and luckily for him.
I am quite upset however that my bank was able to clear this fraudulent check in the first place, and now hold me responsible. I feel that as a business owner there must be some sort of protection in place for me.
[contact info of the man who scammed Joe:]
Rodrigues Collin
916-765-6838
rodco2008@yahoo.com
By law, the depositor is the one responsible for any deposits he makes, so unfortunately you're stuck with the bill. The law doesn't really protect you from this type of scam, because there's no requirement that banks take responsibility for authorizing and clearing a fake check. Your best strategy—and sadly, in this instance it's all preventative because it won't get you your money back—is to change your policies for accepting payment, and especially for giving refunds. FakeChecks.org goes as far as suggesting you only accepts checks from family members and friends. Restricting deposit payments to credit cards might cause you some booking problems, but it will protect you from scammers like Collin in the future.
At the very least, any time a potential customer asks for immediate cash back on a deposit, consider it a red flag that something might be wrong with the scenario. You can then talk to your bank and tell them you suspect fraud and ask them to investigate. There is really no acceptable scenario where someone should give you a check and them immediately ask for the money back.
Remember that as this article states, there is a difference between when funds are available and when a check is considered good. You can also check out this BankersOnline Alerts & Counterfeits table for banking institutions that are experiencing fraudulent activity of some sort.
Joe, you might also want to file a complaint with the National Consumers League's National Fraud Information Center at fraud.org.
(Photo: cambodia4kidsorg)
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Comments:
Wow, that is just horrible.
Then again, nothing good EVER comes out of anything that involves Western Union. I wish they'd just follow Circuit City and die.
Wire transfer only. Most banks are more than happy to tell you the process and at what point it is 100% clear. You also can't reverse a wire transfer, impossible to fake it as far as I know too.
@eightfifteen: You win the Internet! I'll let you decide whether "win" is really the appropriate term to use there.
They found a new group of people who don't know about the "fake cashier's check" scam.
Thanks to Joe, that loophole will close...
I concur. A wire transfer is the electronic equivalent of delivering a briefcase full of unmarked $100's. Once delivered it's yours.
I used to work in the brokerage biz and would on occasion have clients as to have large sums wired out. I was always extremely careful to make sure the instructions were perfect. In the brokerage world, all errors are the brokers and that means your paycheck gets a ding.
This is not the greatest scam in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Yeah, anytime "Nigeria" is mentioned while in the midst of a financial transaction, FRAUD should immediately come to mind. Too bad that you got taken in like that, especially since cashiers check are part of your normal business transactions.
It won't get your money back, but one thing you might do is contact the 419eaters guys with your original E-mail. They take great pleasure in giving these guys the a good run-around.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for a U2 cover band, I think we've all had just about enough of the real Bono...
@SacraBos: I wondered about that, because it didn't seem like the scammer needed to bring Nigeria into it, and I would imagine it would be a red flag to some targets. But I do feel sorry for actual honest people in Nigeria--can you imagine trying to start a legit international business from there?
It'd be nice in this age of technological whiz-bangery that a bank could process a check faster than 10 business days. Y'know, faster than it would take for some dirtbag overseas to con you into sending him a boatload of cash from the fraudulent check he just passed to you.
However, in some cases, even though this scam is OLD. People's greed sometimes over-rides good sense.
It sounds like Western Union tried to convince this guy it was a fraud, but he wouldn't listen to them.
While I can understand his frustration these banking rules that essentially extend you credit under the guise of letting you withdraw money you think you have, my sympathy for this guy is decreased by the fact that he fought his way through a well intentioned and persistent effort by Western Union to protect him.
I'd like to know more about what Western Union told him. Sounds like they were doing more to look out for him than his own bank.
please pull the guy's phone number/email down off this post, I think he's been through enough?
At the least, the warnings from Western Union should have been a big red flag.
But I'm assuming he'd never read Consumerist until AFTER this happened, when someone must have suggested he drop the tip... I can't imagine even a casual reader would fall for this sort of scam.
Just because the bank gives you ACCESS to the money in your available balance does in no way make the check cleared.
I have worked in banking, this is standard procedure to give you access to your money prior to it actually being cleared. You are given a booklet when you open your account explaining all of these things...read them people!
As a former teller, there is no way for me to tell if your check is legit as long as it has all the things a check needs: pay to the order of, a drawee bank, drawee signature, current date and the micr encoding along the bottom that looks like an actual account number. I am going to take it for deposit.
As for how long it takes things to process, actual check processing is slow. First, the check goes through the bank it was deposited at. Depending on the time of day you make your deposit, your check may not be sent out until the next day for initial processing or even 3 days later (deposit Friday after 3 is going to wait until Monday). Once the depositing bank does an initial posting to your account, it is then sent to the fed for sorting, then mailing to the local bank it was drawn on and finally that bank has to determine if it is in fact a real check...if it is indeed a fake...the process now follows the same procedure going backwards. So yes, 14 days is not uncommon. A pain in the butt...but not uncommon.
@bohemian:
Absolutely correct. This is the safest method of accepting payment. Better than ACH transfers, even.
I was all, "Western union has a FRAUD DEPARTMENT??!" I always assumed that since they profit so much off of fraud, the only fraud department they might have would be a "Fraud-encouragement" department.
@David Markland: @JustThatGuy3: @Chris Miller: I, too, was struck with annoyance at how bravely he fought off Western Union's surprising efforts to not deliver his money to the scammer.
@laker: To avoid more confusion, I've added a note clarifying that that's the scammer's contact info.
@bohemian: I agree. We see rich people and evil people doing it all the time in movies so it always made me wonder why us normal folk dont use it.
@JustThatGuy3: Yea im with you there. Just because they are nagging you about fraud doesnt mean they think you are the one committing said fraud.
@dorastandpipe: Indeed. And in fact, the bank is REQUIRED (by federal regulations) to make the funds available to you the following business day if you deposit a cashier's check for $5000.00 or less. Obviously there's no way your bank can verify the check that quickly, so the lesson here is, NEVER assume a check has "cleared" just because the funds show available in your account.
@dorastandpipe: True but shouldnt a cashiers check be able to be verified faster since its drawing off the bank itself and not a customer account?
You would think checks would be sent digitally in this day and age, or at the very least the moment you try to desposit the check it would run the account and attempt to remove the money.
Either way checks are slow, stupid, unsecure and..stupid. I never use them because I dont trust them.
@parad0x360: It can be expensive, but pretty much only for the sender. I've used it a few times to send money to one-off audio manufacturers.
Quite simple really. And fun to say you're doing/did it to boot!
Once again, follow my advice: FOR ANY cheque from a person or company you are not familiar with, ALWAYS write "confirm cheque before depositing" (or "check") and really if you're in doubt, rip the cheque slightly where the account # is and bend it over so that it can't be machine read. It will be flagged for confirmation.
Does this tribute band happen to play UNDER ROCKS???
@mariospants: "Once again, follow my advice: FOR ANY cheque from a person or company you are not familiar with, ALWAYS write "confirm cheque before depositing" (or "check") and really if you're in doubt, rip the cheque slightly where the account # is and bend it over so that it can't be machine read. It will be flagged for confirmation. "
Is this SERIOUSLY going to prevent check fraud? I'm sure I may be missing something in the banking world, but it means even less than putting "check ID!" on my credit card.
The advance fee folks are getting more creative all the time. I know a student at an ivy league college who responded to an ad on the school's online job-posting board for a tutoring job. She was told she'd be tutoring a Filipino girl who was moving to join family in the US. The student I know ended up getting duped into cashing a big check and wiring most of the money back to the girl's supposed parents (without ever having met anybody). She was out something like $8,000. It really, really sucks.
@MrEvil: it doesn't take 10 days to process a check. most process in less than 2 days now.
here's the problem. let's say someone gets your bank account number & routing number & starts writing fraudulent checks on your account. & you don't notice for a week. you have the power to march down to your bank (within 60 days) & say, "this is not mine. it's fraudulent."
so, who picks up the tab? rightfully so, the person who deposited your fraudulent check, whenever possible.
see, no one knows it's a fake check until someone notices the money is missing. THAT'S why it sometimes takes 10 days. sometimes 2 weeks. no lie, i dealt with a case where it was 6 weeks later.
that's what makes these scams so horrible. often times there's not one, but TWO victims & unfortunately for this fellow, the person who had their account info compromised is covered under the law & he gets to come up with $4000.
knowledge is power. arm yourself.
I believe it is up to 30 days that the bank can return a check that has previously "cleared" for whatever reason they want. My ex and I made the mistake of not both signing a check that we received as a gift - it was addressed to "Mr and Mrs" and only one of us signed it. The bank cleared it and then a month later we got it sent back with a refused item fee.
@dorastandpipe: it must've been a little while since you worked in banking. you're right to a point, but check 21 has made everything much faster. items no longer need to be sent for processing - even local institutions are using "branch item capture" now, where they basically send batches thru the scanner at the branch level 1 or more times daily.
most checks are "cleared" within 48 hours now, but as you state, that "clear" simply means that the item is presented against a good account with funds available, has not had payment stopped & is not known to be fraudulent. even if an item clears, there are certain exceptions built into the system that allow a fraudulent item to be sent back thru the system for as long as 2 months (although once you get past a a couple weeks, the collection procedure starts to resemble a game of hot potato).
i'm sure there are still a few banks that use the old paper route, in which case your timeline is spot on, but increases in processing charges & courier fees, as well as a consolidation of clearing houses throughout the country has pushed a lot more institutions into item capture.
@parad0x360: you can usually verify a cashier's check by phone, but banks are not required to verify anything over the phone (most do it as a courtesy). also, cashier's checks can be forged also.
a word to the wise: don't ever verify a check with the phone number on the check or correspondence that came with it. google the bank the account is drawn on & verify the check from that number. some fraudsters have gotten wise & replaced contact info on the checks as an added layer of security. "go ahead & verify it...the number's right there" - in reality, you're calling some pre-paid in ontario.
@West Coast Secessionist: the gov't's starting to get a little pissed off at WU. plan on hearing a lot more about their fraud department in the future. they've implemented a number of voluntary measures to reduce the transfer of funds to criminals abroad (scammers, drug dealers, money launderers, terrorists, etc.) in leiu of legislation that will really impact their ability to do business & affect their profitability.
Paypal dude, they at least have buyer protection and stuff.
@themicah: i've heard of a student loan scam going around lately also. there are a couple variations that i've seen so far, but they follow the same structure. they are somewhat more advanced though b/c they require the mark to apply for the scam.
I've gone through this with my daughter who accepted fake postal money orders. I learned there are no safe ways to accept payment:
1) Cash can be counterfeit
2) Checks and money orders can be fake
3) Wire transfers can be backed out by the paying bank.
Banks have up to 60 days to back out a payment! You are left with the responsibility even though you don't have the resources to determine a fake or bad payment.
In short, the bank wins, you always lose. Thank the financial lobby and your representitives who cater to the bankers and not to you. Sorry.
As much as I hate what happened to this guy, I find it particularly funnny that he mentions how agrivated he was at the hassels Western Union Fraud department were putting him through.
Perhaps that should have rung a bell?
As a general rule, most companies arent going to hassel a person when they are trying to give them money (which is what you are doing) They hassel you when you are trying to take money.
Yes you should have listened to Western Union. I have a friend that fell for the Russian wife scam and when he went to WU to drop off that 3G the dude at the counter warned him that alot of these are fake. Needless to say my friend didn't listen and was out the money and waited at the airport for like 2 hours then comes home to an email asking for more $$$.
sigh :(
@mac-phisto: I'm surprised they allowed him to make the transaction. My bf tried to WU me around $425 once when I broke down in another state. He used his debit/credit card online to send the money for the repairs, got a money transfer #, and then got a call asking him verification questions. He answered them all, and then they told him they were canceling the transaction for security reasons. They told him if he took cash to a local WU, it'd go out with no problem. The kicker is, they had already put a hold on the several hundred dollars from the original transaction, which was almost all the money he had. The hold wasn't removed for four days.
I think I would've gotten suspicious when the Rodrigues dude asked for his money back in the first place...sorry, but why send money when you can't afford it?
Anywho, I also agree with everyone else saying the OP should've been even more wary about the whole situation when WU was being "extremely difficult"
@MrEvil: People's greed overriding common sense? Up until the request for a refund, this looked like a normal business transaction for the OP. How was he greedy? This isn't a "pigeon drop" story.
A wire transfer can be recalled wtihin the first 72 hours. :) There's always a loophole.
@mac-phisto: Yes and no.
Your bank is required to make money available within a certain time frame -- usually a day or two after you deposit a check. This time is not tied to the check actually clearing: it is a regulatory requirement.
On the few occasions when a legitimate local customer of my small business has written me a bad check, it took up to a week for the funds to be pulled... and 3 to 5 more days for the notification to show up in the snail mail. It can take several more days for a check drawn on a far-off bank to bounce, and for that notification to reach your bank, and for them to pull the money back out of your account.
This is the basis of the "forged check" scam: the time lag is the necessary factor that makes it work. The only way to fight it, other than insisting on wire transfers only, it to automatically wait two to four weeks before drawing on the funds from any suspect check.
This is the correct response to a questionable check:
[0. Turn it over to the FBI without trying to collect on it. Stop being greedy & gullible. If you can't do that...]
1. Deposit it.
2. Steadfastly refuse to withdraw the money for several weeks.
3. When it bounces, you're out the "bad deposit item fee" only ($8 at my bank).
@scoobydoo: This is not Western Union's fault. I think it's customary (even the law?) that certified checks get cleared within 24 hours, even if it takes longer for the check to bounce around in the system. It's the window between the initial clearing and the final confirmation that the scammers play in.
Western Union picked up on it and tried to add extra stops into the transaction, but the OP dealt with their questions and Western Union had no choice but to let the transaction through.
I think the moral of the story is that if you're ever advanced money in the form of a cashier's check, go ahead and deposit it, and if the person who send it to you needs to get a portion of it back, tell them to sue you for it.
It wasn't a fake check. It was a TRIBUTE check.