I hope people can now stop complaining about how horrible the US Automakers are because they don't know how to make cars people want. They were not in trouble because of their vehicles, they were in trouble because of the economy. Toyota is in better shape because their government is willing to help them without all of the drama.

@azzy: It's simple - Market Saturation.

With the economy taking a shit, people finally realized they don't need a new car every 2 years. And then when gas exploded, they bought fuel-efficient models and now, they're set till the car dies.

My folks recently purchased a new car from Toyota, getting almost $4k off in cash back/rebates on a car that hardly ever has them. Great time to buy a car, domestic or otherwise.

@squatchie44: Perhaps I should start saving for one.

People don't want to buy cars with expensive, complicated fuel-saving technologies when the price of gas is below $2/gallon.

I hope Congress takes this into account when they set the conditions for the US automaker bailout. Otherwise they may force those companies to build cars no one will want to buy.

@azzy: Where do you get your information from that Toyota gets help from the Japanese governmant? And what proof do you have the the big 3 don't suck?

In fact Toyota posted its first loss in 70+ years.(first since it has been an auto manufacturer)

The big three have been posting losses for the past decade, even while our economy was booming they had difficulty turning a profit.

The assumption that you are a Detroit/UAW affiliate is a safe one by your lack of insight as to what the hell is actually happening in the auto industry.

@David Brodbeck: You HONESTLY think it will stay that way?

It's already back up to $2/gallon.

@azzy: American cars are still pieces of crap no matter how you cut it. Furthermore Toyota isn't begging the US government for bailout money because they run inefficient businesses with unionzied overpaid blue collar workers.

@David Brodbeck: They seem even less inclined to buy other kinds of cars.

Damn $700/hr autoworker union workers destroying... Oh. Wait.

Hey Wall Street: thanks for destroying the global auto industry as well!

@smythe:

Toyota gets help from the Japanese government through their universal health care system. Same goes with the European automakers.

American automakers pay for the health care of their workers and retired workers.

If American business wants to compete on the international stage, we need to get universal healthcare as well.

@David Brodbeck: they may force those companies to build cars no one will want to buy.

Heh, why would anyone need to use force to get GM to do that?

@XopherMV: Or they could do away with the unions that add $2,000 dollars onto the price of every GM car.

Once, a systems efficiency engineer walked into a GM plant, and the Union intercepted him, saying, "If our plants are more efficient, you'll cut jobs." So not only are the workers overpaid, there is a great deal of job redundancy.

@Sean Tapscott: Current union autoworkers make roughly what current non-union autoworkers do. GM's problem is legacy costs. Doing away with the unions won't lower GM's costs unless they also cut off the pensions for all of the current retirees.

@Oranges w/ Cheese: How long it stays that way depends on how long the U.S. economy stays down. It's lack of demand that's caused the price to drop.

@LandruBek: Well, I don't know about GM, but the Ford F-series pickup is the #2 best-selling vehicle of all time. So it's hard to argue American auto companies don't make anything people want to buy.

@XopherMV: So you're saying that the US workers at the Toyota plants in Huntsville, Alabama; Georgetown, Kentucky; Princeton, Indiana; San Antonio, Texas; and Buffalo, West Virginia get Universal health-care and retirement from Japan?

The Big 3's problem - cancerous unions - was exacerbated by the current economic situation. Unions drove up the cost of production and killed the Big 3's ability to be competitive. Toyota was growing as it did because it made cars that were a good value e.g. high quality and low price. Even with the Big 3 catching up quality-wise, they couldn't offer lower prices, support the unions, and make a profit.

@smythe, @RurouniX: No doubt the big 3 have had management issues, but the thing that is causing them to be in the trouble they are in right now is the economy. Other countries see the value of keeping manufacturing industries in their country and support those companies, we say that our American employees are making too much money so we should just fire them all and ship their jobs overseas. How does that help the economy, or the country?

Oh, and I'm not involved in this situation. I own a Toyota and was anti-union until a few years ago when I started taking a look at the issue and wised up. My next car will be American, if they still exist.

@Sean Tapscott: Jobs are not an issue, the extra costs come from pensions and healthcare. If we had a functioning health care and social security system for our seniors we would not be in this situation.

But I guess we could just complain about paying a bit more and throw the retired out on the street.

@Xerloq: Sorry, but no. The problem is not current union agreements. The problem is the retirement benefits the Big 3 agreed to provide to their workers back when they were bigger companies. They now have to provide pensions and health care for thousands of retirees, a burden Toyota doesn't face.

You could argue that it's the union's fault for demanding those retirement benefits, I suppose, but these commitments were made decades ago when the companies were prosperous.

@RurouniX: Toyota gets plenty of money from state governments in the form of tax subsidies, though. It's not as if their hands are clean when it comes to taking taxpayer money.

There is a lot of misinformation and many half truths about the way Toyota (and other Japanese companies) do business in Japan in these comments. First of all, Toyota also has to cover retirement benefits for employees. Most big companies provide retirement packages because the social security system in Japan is abysmal. The government gives people 60,000 yen a month as part of the social security program. To put that in perspective, in Tokyo, you'd be extremely hard-pressed to survive on 150,000 yen a month.

Second, Japanese businesses supplement national health insurance payments for salaried employees. That means they pay 50% of the premiums. It may or may not end up being less than companies pay in the U.S. The maximum amount of fees per year is something like 540,000 yen, so a company can be forking over up to at least 270,000 yen (about $2,908) per year, per employee for health insurance. Some companies cover more than 50%.

Third, and most importantly, many Japanese companies are top heavy with unproductive workers with high salaries. This is a form of socialized employment that keeps people working at the expense of the company's profits so that there is a more stable society (particularly keeping crime low and consumption high). This situation would never be tolerated in Western business and it's just as wasteful (if not more so) than any union agreement.

Japan's employment situation is just as complex and full of problems as America's. The problems are different, but they are there. It may be difficult to resist using it as a springboard to air grudges against various issues in America, but it's important not to view it so simplistically or to substitute assumptions that Japan has more effective way of doing business for the truth.

@David Brodbeck: "Toyota gets plenty of money from state governments in the form of tax subsidies, though. It's not as if their hands are clean when it comes to taking taxpayer money."

EVERY company that builds a plant these days gets tax credits from the local government, getting a tax credit and paying a reduced amount of taxes is FAR different than the government handing them a check when they have no plan to become solvent. So Toyota doesn't actually GET anything neither do other companies building plants.

Toyota does far more than other companies to ensure their employees and local communities are taken car of. Heres an article you wont see in the Detroit free press,
[www.djournal.com]

And the UAW is a large part of the problem with the big 3. There IS a difference between union pay and non-union pay, that is precisely why one of the stipulations of the bail out was to get compensation inline with the rest of the industry. Now I do not agree with cutting the benefits of the retired UAW workers, it is simply not just to do so. They were promised a certain lifestyle after retirement, they no longer have a vote in the UAW decisions, and are to old to have a chance to make a large difference in their income.

Redundancies in the jobs and inefficiencies are a huge cost that can and should be cut. I worked in a union plant where I would have to call a scheduler, he/she would schedule a person, that person would come over and pick the parts up that I needed and then walk then to my desk less than 200ft away. The whole process took on average 1.5 hours but up to 4, I could have done the same in less than a minute but then I would have been taking somebodies job and would be written up if caught doing so.

I applaud you for wanting to buy American, just ask around I'm sure you will find tons of evidence why you should not.

Ah, yes, one very important point about Japanese car companies. The government assists them by making it financially imprudent in the extreme to have an old car. The fees associated with an old car make it as or more expensive than getting a new one every few years. The older the car, the higher the fees. These regulations ensure that no one ever keeps a car for long and that those who have one are essentially on a treadmill of upgrades.

While strictly not a government "subsidy", these regulations coerce car owners financially into buying new cars all the time. You never see people driving old clunkers in Japan because of this.

@smythe: There's a difference between union and non-union pay, but it's small; the bulk of the difference in what GM pays in compensation versus what Toyota pays has to do with retirement benefits. It's not as if the UAW hasn't made concessions, either. They've even agreed to take over most of GM's retiree health care costs in a couple of years, in exchange for a lump-sum payment.

I'm tired of how every financial crisis this time around is being blamed on the poor and the middle class. No one asked how much the white-collar pencil-pushers at AIG were making, but when a blue-collar autoworker is making a living wage it's somehow a crime against nature.

@Sean Tapscott: "@XopherMV: Or they could do away with the unions that add $2,000 dollars onto the price of every GM car."

So in other words you didn't listen to a thing he said. With health care taken into account, the US Automaker salaries are on par with Japanese/Euros.

"Once, a systems efficiency engineer walked into a GM plant, and the Union intercepted him, saying, "If our plants are more efficient, you'll cut jobs." So not only are the workers overpaid, there is a great deal of job redundancy."

Making up stories that a friend of a friend told his sister doesn't help your cause, only make you look insincere and uninformed.

Gee I don't see too many of the "Let Big 3 die" people posting on this thread...

@TheSpatulaOfLove: They're too busy over at the other article about why GM will fail.

@David Brodbeck: Do you really beleive that having the UAW take over pension plans is a good idea? The UAW doesn't exactly have the best track record with investments, In fact the suck pretty hard.

See Here: [michellemalkin.com]

Again the UAW is going to screw the retired people, but I guess thats OK. It's not like they don't have a vote or anything... OH, Wait, they don't!

@TheSpatulaOfLove: I don't want the big 3 to die, but I do want a structured bankruptcy. That is the only way they will be able to effectively renegotiate their current debt obligations and labor contracts.

If any othe the big 3 go under it will be a huge mess for the the industry as a whole, many small parts suppliers will go under causing huge problems to all other OEM's.

So I do not want the Big 3 to die... I want them to CHANGE!!!

@ShariC: So is this why, for example, used Japanese cars are so abundant in countries that allow importation of such vehicles? Because it's better value to sell after three years than to do the MOT test required every year after that?

@smythe: The problem is, the second that the general public hears the word "Bankruptcy", they won't buy from the company that files for it. It'll be the official Game Over.