I've heard a lot of people recently talking about how virtuous they're being by shopping at a local business while forcing the local business to match an on-line price or a superstore price. We're free to do that as consumers, but we should realize that we're not actually helping to keep the local business alive that way. If we want our money to stay in our community, if we want our local businesses to stay open, if we want them to pay their taxes and pay a living wage and provide a decent work environment, we have to accept paying a bit more in exchange. A higher price isn't always good, but it's worth thinking about how you're spending your money.

People don't want to pay a penny more than they have to for something at walmart but get upset when jobs move overseas. Can't have your cake and eat it too

...if local retailers sold things I needed, I'd shop at them. Two things in the past few weeks I haven't found in local stores (yes, I even tried the specialty stores for each item): Stapleless staplers and windshield washer jets.

The municipalities have to actually provide services before there is something to erode.
Ironically one of the biggest complainers about online sales not being taxed has been coming from a do nothing state legislator who happens to own a clothing boutique.

I don't mind really, since my city has one of the oldest horse racing tracks and one of the larger shopping malls in a very large area.

Plus, it's not that I don't like to shop at local stores, it's just that places like Amazon always offer a lower price, even before taxes are applied. Plus theres free shipping, and I save gas from making multiple shopping trips.

NO! NOT THE PONIES!

MY GOD WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE PONIES! D:

It's not clear to me why we still don't pay taxes for purchases made online. Exceptionalism made sense at the inception of e-commerce, but now, it's plenty healthy. Seems like an unfair advantage; one that accrues to the more affluent.

-They don't carry the products I want.
-Their service sucks.
-Their prices are too high.

The last one is a mute point because the article speaks to the issue of prices, but the first two is why most people differ to the internet. Stores have no incentive, except to do more business. They have been more concerned with not having better sales associates who demand more money, which leads to higher pay, and trucking in more goods, which they pay taxes on themselves.

This is the world.

This is actually an interesting point because "shopping local" carries two meanings, and it is much more important to consider shopping at a locally-owned business. Case in point: I live in a borough that shares a very large shopping district, including a mall, the big box stores, Wal-Mart, Target, and all the stores and chain restaurants in between. Our volunteer fire department hit crisis level last year with lack of donations, and it became a very interesting story. Local news contacted the big box stores asking if they would donate, and their answer was simply that their company cannot donate to our city because then they would be obligated to donate elsewhere, too.

I would prefer to pay a premium to shop at a locally-owned business that pays local taxes and retains local commitments than one that considers their buildings, employees, and products to be disposable, locationless commodities.

Local stores are just a middleman. If they can't survive, then they'll do something else that contributes to the community.

Really, that's that rational answer.

But when I *do* shop local, it's not "really" local. It's the regional chain grocer (okay, Michigan based, so that's cool), the national chain gas station, national chain clothing store, etc. Yeah, the provide jobs, but on subsistence jobs.

I do buy locally engineered cars, which (despite what people think), don't suck unless it has a Chrysler logo on it somewhere.

Does it count if your state does not have sales tax?

Yes, yes, I know: I try to shop locally for several other reasons--keeping cashflow local, jobs, local products from local store take fewer fossil fuels to get to me, and so on--but for me (in Portland), sales tax does not enter into the equation when comparing online to local.

@Chris H:

In most states you're supposed to. I think every state has a "use tax" that applies to goods bought out of state where the sales tax was not paid.

However, this tax is paid on your state income tax return rather than at the point of sale, so your state government really has no clue how much you owe. Its generally the honor system.

I'd be more than happy to buy locally if any of the stores ever carried anything I wanted. Seriously. I much rather walk into a bricks-and-mortar establishment where I can see a product or return it if it's defective.

I don't even mind paying a little bit more...a little bit...but not 50% more. Keep all your pushy salesman and fancy displays..but...give me the product I want at a reasonable price.

@bostonmike: There is something to be said about that, but it's better that they get some money even if their profit margin is quite a bit lower then not having your business to begin with. And to me your exchanging sales tax for s/h so that's not much of a factor to me.

I think the bigger problem is wal-mart has destroyed alot of local businesses.

However, luckily for me I live in a town that has a wonderful downtown area, We have a Doggie Bakery(excellent treats for my dog), 100 different restaurants ranging in styles like; seafood, Thai, Indian, Italian, Japanese, Cuban and so on. We have 2 furniture stores(local owned), a Comic book shop that just renovated(locally owned), a hobbie train store, and many many more.

The difference between my town and others is our tax dollars go into keeping the town nice. They have many days in which you can have sidewalk sales and get things cheaper. They even have a computer shop and office supply store. This is all possible because we buy from our local vender's and keep them in business.

Even though less than 1 mile away is Staples, best buy, a large 3 story mall..

I buy things online too because it is cheaper, but by going out to eat and going to the various shops there and dry cleaners for example you can keep them alive.

You know another thing.. what the hell does sales tax have to do with municipalities? they get their money from property taxes.... sales tax in NJ goes to the pockets of our horrible unions, not townships.

@formatc: So, does that mean that since they didn't donate out of fear of obligation, the fire department shouldn't put out a fire at said big box stores for fear of obligation?

People helping people... what an original and refreshing concept....

The bitter irony of online shopping is that cities have been so desperate for jobs/development that they encourage big box stores to come in, which run the mom and pop/family retailers right out of dodge. Nowadays, I shop largely on Amazon.com, pay sales tax (I live in NY State), and find it a more rewarding shopping experience ironically for the customer service. I've had nothing but good times with Amazon's customer service, whereas I was literally standing in a Circuit City for 30 minutes waving cash over my head trying to get an employee to help me buy a DVD player for my in-laws.

The prices are a smidge better online, but most local stores are usually (though not always) staffed with unhelpful or inexperienced staff and stocked with a poor selection of lower quality goods. I don't think blaming the shopper is the way out of this one - both the physical-store-presence retail sector and the towns/cities that encourage plazas and big stores to be built need to consider if these venues will actually offer what people want, in an environment that will earn their loyalty and make them come back time and time again.

sales tax is for suckers.

OR...If they abolished sales tax, much of the incentive for shopping online will be eroded. Local businesses will get more business and provide more jobs back to the community. Higher taxes inhibit growth. Higher taxes inhibit growth. Do I need to say it again?

Who buys things online to avoid sales tax? I do it because I'm lazy and I can find the cheapest price and get it delivered to my door in less time than it takes me to actually drive to the store/mall.

Shop online. Save money.

Business doesn't survive on "please" and "thank you." You have to stay competitive to stay alive. When that rule is abolished... we don't speak of that around here.

Federal and state taxes are taken from my paychecks. I pay property taxes. I pay sales tax on everyday items, like food/drink.

I think it's ok to treat myself once in a while to some high ticket items, tax free from Amazon and other e-tailers out of state.

So screw you, ICSC.

Taxes and price are only half the battle most of the time. Selection and dealing with a indifferent to hostile staff at the local store is a big part of it too. Online I can search dozens of places in a few minutes to find what I want. Try calling around local via phone to check inventory. It takes forever to find a place that has anything.

@ Chris H - regarding why all people don't pay their local taxes when ordering online.

It's a much more complicated issue than you might first see as a consumer.

Admittedly, as a small online retailer, I have a dog in this fight and personal experience with this. I've had to file taxes in three different states since the beginning of the decade.

Expecting all businesses to collect local / state taxes from all customers not only screw small businesses that are entirely online, but also the many small brick and mortar stores that derive some of their income from the internet, but not so much that they can really justify hiring a full-time internet tax specialist.

Just paying taxes on the orders that come within your *own* state can be really onerous. While I can use my local rate as a base, that's really only a guesstimate. When it comes to filing time, I have to learn which city and county every one of my customers lives in, to compute the correct rate. Here's just a sample of the letter "L" in the state of California - [www.boe.ca.gov]

You must in some cases calculate whether your county, or your customer's county, takes jurisdiction -- for instance, there's a difference between an item that is ordered online and then picked up at your store location, and one that you ship directly to them, and one that you ship from a second warehouse in another county.

In Washington state, there is an entire section of their tax instruction classes (free for business owners) covering this "jurisdiction" issue, because it's such a huge issue for the Portland/Vancouver, WA area.

Then you also may have to factor in other taxing entities, such as special tax districts, that might for example, add on additional "metropolitan transit fees". For instance, when I go to my local mall, I have to pay 8.25% tax, rather than the 7.75% that prevails across the street. Some people have the misfortune of living inside such tax districts, but you won't know that until you count their order in a tax form.

Now. For a second. Try to imagine having to do this for all fifty states, as often as four times a year. The state of Florida alone has FORTY-SEVEN counties and hundreds of localities.

To do this kind of diligence would involve hiring a tax person in a full time position. A lot of online businesses are just a handful of people; same with many small brick and mortars who also sell online. Forcing us to all collect taxes from all fifty states would kill us.

No one's made miracle software that can quickly calculate the tax rate for every location in the U.S. and knows every nook and cranny of franchise taxes, sales taxes, etc. state by state.

Meanwhile, a lot of state and local governments have been very foolish with their purse-strings, and with so much of their wealth tied to things like plummeting property taxes, they want to make money from the sales that have moved online.

Enter the streamlined sales tax project (SSTP), a joint project created by state governments in order to collect more income from their citizens who order things online. (Hey, it's not like, you know, these people are already paying for things like, well, "postage".)

And yes, the geniuses behind the SSTP have no planned grandfather clause for users of eBay, etsy, etc., who will have to force their buyers to pay local taxes on garage sale knicknacks and handmade toys made from socks.

Frankly, I don't see B&Ms (brick and mortars) and online businesses as being mutually exclusive. I try to patronize my fellow independents both on and offline. I pay taxes to businesses in my own state, and in my own town. But to ask me to pay the state of Texas 8.25% on my online order from L.L. Bean is as crazy as asking me to pay Maine sales tax.

Well, maybe the Maine sales tax is less crazy, since Maine could be providing benefits to the employees and owners of L.L. Bean that enable it to be a better business and pass the savings and good items onto me, the consumer. Sort of the way that Michigan gave the Big Three these tasty tax breaks that would help them stay firm and keep jobs in the U.S. ... except...

Truthfully, the big online retailers like Amazon are already so nervous about the SSTP that several of them are already collecting local sales tax from you and transmitting it to your jurisdiction. I'm hoping that we get a flat sales tax nationally (though not as crappy as Canada's GST) because I don't hold out much hope for the miracle software.

@metsarethe...:

But if I've got that cake just sitting there I can't help but eat it. Say, could you tell me why I'm so fat?

@shepd:

Hey, I can't find washer nozzles either (at least not stupid LED lit ones), and I even checked at the fucking dealer.

@anonymousryan: Where do you live that you can get packages shipped in less time than it takes to get to a store?

Is there a postal sorting center at the North Pole or something?

@Geekybiker:

I can't think of many times I've seen hostile store staff (just the owner of the old, long-defunct Atari shop in Fairbanks, AK). But I suppose aggressive, lying commissioned salespeople amount to the same thing.

I don't shop online because I don't have to pay sales taxes, I shop online because it's *so* much more convenient. I don't have to find parking; I can hop between sites to compare products with ease; things show up on my doorstep with minimal work; I can find more interesting and unusual products from smaller niche websites (who I'd rather support than Amazon.com, honestly); etc. Honestly, sales tax is near the bottom of my reasons.

If I had anything other than chain and big box stores around here, I would definitely shop more 'local,' but until I get some classy independent boutiques instead of Toys R Us, Target, Walmart, and Best Buy, I'll be staying online.

@verdantpine:

Canada's GST is crappy... I know cause I live here.

It sucks when you want to buy something, and it's hillarious the amount of tax we have to pay. I would just go to the US, buy what I wanted, and then declare nothing at customs.... tax free! That's when the dollar was 1:1 now it's not worth it, ugh.

@bostonmike: sometimes you don't even have to pay more. i was trying to explain to someone yesterday that shopping online isn't always that great of a deal. once you add in shipping cost (absent of free shipping deals), sometimes the price difference is only a few dollars. i'm always willing to pay a little more to get something today rather than in a week.

however, i have a separate problem altogether. my "local merchants" include a frame shop, a bridal boutique, 2 unfinished furniture stores, a pool table retailer & a designer dress store. i can't think of a single thing i'd want to buy in any of those stores.

there is an awesome army/navy store down the road, though. LOVE that place!

@ottawa_guy:

Wait, I would have to pay the state tax anyways, shit!
Guess it's lose or super-lose.... i'll take the lose.

@neko613: do you live in Arcadia? (Santa Anita racetrack, Arcadia mall)?

There are a lot of online retailers where you still pay sales tax. If you buy anything from someone who has a "brick and mortar" store in your state, you still pays sales tax. Walmart, Target, Sears, Etc. The only time you normally don't pay sales tax is businesses that are online only.

@formatc: That's the exact opposite of my experience asking for donations. Usually, the national chains will donate, but the local ones won't even donate a paperclip.

I don't usually shop locally for two reasons: First is that I don't have a car. Second is that I can find things quicker online than I can walking around a store. If I can save an hour of my time and 50% off the purchase price, why would I ever think about going to the store?

I'd love to shop local, but frankly I can't get away with it. I work and my wife's home with the kids, so I can't sneak out to shop for her (unless I make up a lie, and I suck at lying). I have to do it online and have the stuff delivered here to me at work. I do try to buy from companies that have brick and mortar in our region for easier and funner returns and exchanges.

Sometimes it's even possible to buy from locally-owned mom-and-pops online, or at least over the phone. I got her a pedicure certificate from the place she gets her hair done, they were very helpful and nice (one of the reasons she goes there in the first place).

@warf0x0r: They want me to shop locally so I can pay more taxes on my purchases? Sure, I'll get right on that! I love paying extra!

@ottawa_guy: Most border states have lower rates (NY average is around 7.5-8%, depends on the county)

@TechnoDestructo: No where in the post does he/she state that they get packages shipped in less time than it takes to go and buy them.

Seriously the post is only 3 sentences long, the least you could do is read it before posting.

First is that I don't have a car.

@unpolloloco: WORD

For me the problem is the bus route and schedule. The buses only run once an hour and I usually have to take two buses to get anywhere I can do shopping at. I don't like losing half a day on the bus and I really hate rushing through my shopping so I'm not stuck waiting another hour for the next bus.

@Shadowman615: especially taxes!

@anonymousryan: I agree. I shop online because with a full time job and a full time household to take care of, who has 2 hours to go to stores and browse. Plus - I don't have the extra $ and can find way cheaper prices usually online.

@Chris H: Having to do point of sale sales tax for 50 states would be an insane burden on smaller online retailers. Some state revenue departments are notorious for being petty, aggressive and prone to mistakes.

I had a state dept or revenue call and threaten to come arrest me over a mistake they made when they switched computer systems. They are good at finding other ways to waster your time. I can't imagine having that hassle x50.

Our state claimed they were going to start enforcing use tax for everything you bought out of state. Don't ask me how they were going to do this. I can't imagine the man hours wasted obtaining and auditing bank records to extract maybe less than $10 in use tax out of a citizen is a cost effective revenue strategy. Our state dept of revenue actually expected people to print, fill out and mail a use tax form within 30 days every time you bought anything out of state. Seeing that three other states are less than 30 minutes of driving this is just insane.

@mac-phisto: Truth be told. I've found on more than one occasion that my local Best Buy and other electronics outlets especially, have lower prices than anything found online. All of my "shopping" for an LCD this holiday season was done online, but my purchases were done in-store.

I also have yet to try any of those online grocery sites like Peapod, so that's a good $150-$200 per month that Jewel and Aldi receives from me.

Give me the price and wide selection, of things I can buy online, locally and I might consider it. But its not to avoid sales tax. I shop on line to avoid stupid people in malls, lines at check out counters and walking around trying to find something for an hour then not finding it. why would I deal with all that crap? When with a few key strokes and google I can find exactly what I want in under a minute. I finished all my christmas shopping in an hour, and never even left my chair.

@bohemian: yeah, no kidding state tax depts like wasting peoples' time. i just spent 6 months trying to prove to the state that our payroll taxes were NOT late - that they were on-time & in fact, directly deposited into the general fund. the response? 'yeah, well prove it!'

anyway, that's a little o/t - the thing about use tax is that virtually no one reports, which makes virtually everyone guilty, which provides an easy means to extract extra tax revenue during an audit. once a state gets serious about use tax, they are pretty much saying that if your lucky number gets drawn for an audit, be prepared to dole out some cash. they don't have to audit everybody for it to be profitable - they just penalize everybody they audit.

@elisa: I was going to guess Arlington Heights IL (Arlington Park race track, Woodfield mall)

this reminds me of the Lexus commercial where the girl got a pony when she was a kid. Not only did she get an actual pony but her favorite part about having the pony was that she got to rub it in her friend's face.

I would not like to be her husband *Needy!*