Ex-TV Service Installer Explains It All, Tells You How to Fight Back
Consumerist TaterTom explains the process behind Television Service Installation, and gives us a few great ways to make sure your dollar is going somewhere well deserved. You rock, Tatertom. His in-depth letter after the jump.
Hi guys,
I've seen an increasing number of people hopping on the "let's jerk around the Satellite/Cable providers" bandwagon on your site, and others, and I don't believe the subject is shown in a correct light much of the time. Specifically, here, I'm talking about your recent article, http://consumerist.com/5119510/directtvs-free-professional-installation-neither-professional-nor-free#c ,You can see some of my comments, [I'm tatertom] posted as replies to other's. Don't take this to mean I am endorsing providers' behavior such as hanging up on customers, rudeness of any sort, or charging for installed systems that don't work correctly. Those are exactly the types of things that should be frowned upon, and one of many reasons I enjoy your site. Bash that stuff until no end, please.
I have over five years in low-voltage electrical installs, including previous employment by ATT Broadband, MediaOne, Comcast [this was actually one job, but that's not helping my case here], as well as a contracting company for Dish Network AND DirecTV. As I visit friends houses, and even my own personal customers' homes [for a different purpose], I notice bad installations all over the place. There is no excuse for this type of behavior. I'm talking about wires ran over carpet. Wires through external walls with no sealant to keep bugs and water outside. Wires not secured neatly anywhere inside or outside, with the exception of behind the TV set and/or modem and/or telephone. The worst thing ever, and unfortunately the most prevalent, is when an installer doesn't crimp/compress/physically attach the fittings on the end of the wire. It's just plain absurd. I speculate this is usually a satellite installer, whom buys his own tools and supplies, and either purchases or steals equipment he doesn't have the capacity to install. This could use expansion:
There are two basic types of fitting for coax cabling intended for television signal, crimp [old] and compression/snap'n'seal.
Crimped connectors are exactly what they sound like. The installer strips the wire the same way as with any other fitting, even using the same tool to do so. The fitting is slid on the end of the cable, and secured there by means of pressing the outer shell of the wire-side of the fitting inward from all directions, resulting in a hexagonal shape. Easy, right? I think so, and don't understand how they're rarely done right.
The not-so-recent solution is the compression or snap'n'seal type fitting, these are subtly different, but work the same way, often with the same tool [different tool than the crimp type].
The installer strips the wire the same way, with the same tool as he would a crimp fitting, and slides the fitting on the same exact way, but the fitting itself doesn't collapse the same way. Instead, the wire-side metal or plastic ring is slid over a plastic bushing [usually black] that squeezes into the cable jacket, also making this type of connector water-tight. I won't mention the devices you can build with previously-emptied cables and thrown out splitters and such.Back to the article. It was stated that the installer told the customer there was to be a charge of $250. This seems rather high, indeed, but this is NEGOTIABLE. Here's some inside info from a former contractor:
The 'free pro install' gives you a great deal of free stuff, and the installer must almost always offer a way to install it for free. That in no way means that it will be aesthetically pleasing. If you live in an apartment, you can almost always thank the apartment complexes' own regulations for additional charges. They don't want external holes drilled. They don't want people in the attic/crawlspace. They don't want you to interfere with their pricey cable tv pre-install. Let's be clear. Apartments are a royal pain in the ass for a satellite installer. Sometimes, even if given permission by the complex, offered extra money for equipment/labor, and bribed with pizza, beer, and something to put in your illicit, yet inventive device fashioned out of old cable parts, it just can't happen. That tree, the building itself, raw distance involved, and other factors make it flat-out annoying, because no install = no money for the installer.
Different companies differ in how they pay their contractors/employees, but for me, installing both satellite systems, the deal was simple:
$25 for the dish [it's perceived as $50 for the first receiver, zero for the dish sometimes]
$25 for each receiver
you negotiate 'custom' work with the customer, and keep every penny of it.Cable companies often work completely different. An employee is paid hourly. A contractor is paid per piece, incremented right down to putting a new fitting on. We're focusing on the cable contractor here, which I've also been. There are things the customer pays for, and things they don't. For instance, running the line from street to house is almost always free for the customer, yet the installer makes money on that, and any additional work necessary to perform that run, usually to where your power hooks up. Once inside the house, there is usually a one-time $20 or so fee for each additional line installed. This includes an outlet on the inside of an exterior-facing wall, and the wire running through the wall to the outside, down first [to let water drip away from the hole, which should be sealed in all instances] then up to the eve of the house, and around to the ground block [main junction, again, usually near power]. That is unsightly. The alternative is to use additional professional skills to run the wires through the attic or crawlspace, and 'fishing' the wall. The price for this type of install usually STARTS at $25. If ever I had to fish two walls to run one line, I have always charged two wallfishes. You can see the installation charges starting to run high. Apartments usually encounter $10 and up carpet fishes, overpriced flat-lines [designed poorly to install in a window or door jamb where drilling is not allowed or not an option], and even a barrage of filters, diplexors, combiners, amplifiers, the list goes on.
This stuff just isn't that darn simple, that's why the pros are paid and TRAINED to install this stuff. Generally speaking, you just don't know what it involves, or how to do most of it properly. That in no way means that the particular installer that comes to your home has the same level of proficiency as I do. If you've read this admittedly long email from the start, I completely understand the state of many installers' skills, and they are not satisfactory. There's good ones and bad ones, and you'll never know without letting the man/woman work, unfortunately.Fortunately, there are steps that can be taken to cover yourself:
1. Don't let a door-to-door salesman sell you these services. You can get the same deal by taking the flyer and calling the local install or provider's company.
2. When the installer arrives, get all their info. This includes their first and last name, their tech id number, YOUR information, including name, phone, address, and services ordered, and what company pays them. If they are reluctant to give you any of that information, close the door in their face. You do have the right to be rude to someone who is being shady, but wants you to let them in your house.
3. Have your friendly handyman acquaintance present to inspect their work before you sign anything.
4. Read everything you sign
5. Follow up with a call to the provider. Ask them specifically to walk you through how to check that you are receiving your full package by viewing a channel from each package ordered, and if it's satellite, a portion of each transponder [it pretty much just means each satellite you need to receive signal from]. You can usually ask for a different technician to come inspect the prior's work, at no cost, and any reputable provider or contracting company will send a manager or supervisor of some sort out for such an inspection at your request.
6. If these steps didn't work to your satisfaction, there are always consumerist's suggested methods, like my favorite, the EECB.Now, here's how you can check your service, one provider at a time, starting with cable.
Look at all [analog, aka old style] channels numbered 13 and down. If you see any 'ghost' images, 'herringbone' patterns, fuzziness/graininess, or bars in the screen. The clarity is a little subjective, and you can't be too critical if you own a 1000" tv here. But the other interferences are always a problem that can be fixed. Wait, I lied. Your vcr or tv may actually just be that cheap. The described interferences [with the exception of fuzziness or a HORIZONTAL bar] usually come from what's called ingress. This means the local tv stations broadcasting over the air do so at the same frequencies as these certain channels, and if it's bad enough, you will see the locally broadcasted channel better than the cable one that's supposed to be there. Sometimes simply skipping the vcr will correct this. If you live in a place where there are local stations nearby, the problem may not be correctable by the provider, as it is happening in your equipment that you purchased elsewhere. Usually, the service tech can show you this with a portable tv they carry in their vehicle, which is better shielded. If this doesn't apply to you, or all the tv's do the same interference on the same channels, THEY likely can fix the problem. Usually the service techs are more advanced than the installers, but there are always exceptions.Now, to test satellite. Navigate through the menus of the receiver until you find a section labeled 'signal strength' usually under installation. Refer to the manual you should have been provided. The two most common transponders are 110 and 119, depending on if you have HD, there may be more, or they may be completely different. Their signal strength can be determined good, if it says 'good' or the bar is green. Anything else, consult the manual to be sure. On the same screen as the test [usually], there is also an option something like 'check switch.' This tests that the little knobby thing[s] on the arm of the dish is working properly. You should also be able to consult the manual for a description of the results.
I want to reiterate that there are both good and bad techs working for all of these companies. When it comes to your services, especially digital and HD services, your mileage should NOT vary [much]. If you have the same specs on your tv as your friend, and the same channel from the same provider looks better on one of the tv's, the other's installation is likely to blame. Keep in mind, however long this message is, there are STILL other factors that can affect your service quality.
Knowledge is power. Not to mention, if I can help a dissatisfied friend [i.e. fellow consumerist reader] save some face with some simple information that I posses, than I will do so ASAP. If there are any proper, honest, knowledgeable technicians reading posts like the one I am referring to, they are cringing at the thought of meeting under-knowledged customers throwing fits about portions of a job done properly, such as negotiating for custom work. If I were to negotiate a price to sell you my technical writing services for this very message, I would undoubtedly start higher than I believe it is worth. That's how negotiating works.
Happy consumering,
tatertom
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Comments:
Wow. Just Wow. Give that man a star!
That picture is of 66 blocks used for telecom (voice and data) , not TV... Just sayin' ;-)
It's interesting to see how much this guy has jumped around
Wow, lots of that I knew, some it didn't but put together in one place is pretty cool. Thanks for the insight!!!
@Darrone:
Hey I have a VCR, they are pretty outdated but I can bet you a lot more people still have them then you would think.
When it comes to anything at all tech based or any electronic equipment you will always have a large minority of people either using it wrong or have it hooked up wrong. Or have figured it out themselves and are doing something stupid like having an unsecured wireless network.
When we had cable their idiot wore out all three of his drill bits and discharged his drill trying to make a whole in my stucco wall (the real stuff from the '30s not that shite they pawn off as stucco today). So we were both happy hwne I just said leave me a pile opf cable and connectors and go away.
When we switched to Dish they were cool enough to upfront say they'd just take the $99 off my bill and let me do the free install myself.
@Darrone: I think he was just using a VCR as just one example, plenty of devices can interfere with the signal.
@Darrone:
I think you underestimate the number of old people and mom/dads out there. There still seems to be a huge market for VHS (dont ask me why).
@Darrone: As a former installer for DirecTV and ATT Uverse I can assure you many many people still have VCRs. VCRs are for the most part very poorly made and provide any number of problems in a broadband television install. VCRs are almost always the weakest link (not to say that cheap RCA isn't as well).
And if there are better ways to "eyeball" analog SD channels, I'd like to know what they are. I always had a Sony monitor in my truck that was far better shielded so I didn't have to "eyeball" anything.
If I were to negotiate a price to sell you my technical writing services for this very message, I would undoubtedly start higher than I believe it is worth. That's how negotiating works.
"No, no, no, no. It's not worth ten. You're supposed to argue, 'Ten for that? You must be mad!' "
A few years ago, I struck a deal with Directv to upgrade to HD. I had been a Directv customer for over 10 years and very happy with their product. The agreement included FREE install. The installer arrives and informs me that there is a tree blocking the HD satellite, requiring the dish to be placed in the yard for an extra fee. That was not the agreement, and I am no longer a Directv customer.
The installer is NOT my contractor, he is the satellite/cable companies contractor. I DON'T CARE about what and how is paid. When a signal provider represents free installation, it had better be FREE. Period. If the install is going to take longer or be more involved than the average install, then that is the provider's problem.
I don't blame the installer, but neither will I be jerked around. Free means free.
I love how he mentions the improv devices that can be made from cable filters and parts. I thought about this, when I was removing my cable filter so I could receive free non-basic cable, but then I realized I was probably already going to hell fast enough.
I lived in an apartment in Mississippi in '95 when Direct Tv first started. I paid $1100 for a dish and 2 receivers. We could not put it on the outside of the complex so we mounted it on a wooden box inside the apartment, facing where it would have been outside. I still got a 93 signal strength. Might be an option in some cases.
I don't believe that this guy is a pro, or knows what he's talking about. "The two most common transponders are 110 and 119"
110 and 119 are the longitude where some satellites are located. Each of those satellites contain dozens of individual transponders.
It may seem like not a big deal, but anyone working with satellite tech who hears that would think this guy's an idiot.
@GTI2.0:
when I saw that picture it reminds me of the audio wall @ work. Its where we have patch panel(s) to audio router cross connects. I should take a pic of it and post it..
@weakdome:
Well alot of those improv devices are usually for the analog side of cable. But then again, it's been 10 years plus since I was in the residential install business.
@everclear75: I don't think the devices he was talking about had any use for anything related to cable, or television.
think: drugs
Hi Tatertom,
I have a question that I hope you might be able to give me some direction on. I see you mentioned how to enter the house from the demarc without taking a drill to the foundation wall, is there a website you could point me to that might have some more info on how to do this more clearly?
I am constructing my own house, and would appreciate some expert advice.
@mbd:
Exactly. And that part about the free install not being aesthetically pleasing is BS. They say "free PROFESSIONAL installation." No person I know that considers themself a professional would want to sign their name to the hack jobs that are "standard" installation.
To me, free PROFESSIONAL installation includes wall fishing and wall jacks. Anything less is simply unacceptable.
@mbd: Agreed 100 percent. If this article has taught me anything, it's to stay the hell away from Direct TV. At least with Comcast I just pay a flat rate for installation and that's the end of it.
Nice to read all that and very informative. I was pretty happy with my DirecTV installation, but then I didn't have any special circumstances and they just used the coax lines left behind by my old cable installation.
@khiltd:
hmmm, because I'd stupidly added that to my dictionary for some reason. thx
PS, isn't this a thrilling thread indeed
@Darrone:
You'd be surprised how many people out there still have VCR's in the setup. It's one of those things they just never bother to change.
I was helping my Mom with her TV not having any sound and found the cable box routed through the VCR still. Once I removed that everything was fine.
I find a lot of people still have them setup out of habit.
@MauriceVintersorg: I also like how he calls the LNB a switch.
I just had a very professional free install from DirecTV, same installer that upgraded my service to HD last summer and also retweeked my dish. I'm glad it wasn't the guy who wrote this article.
@Darrone: Like others have said, VCRs are still very relevant today for most homes. Look at the market penetration of DVRs and it is still extremely low for the overall mainstream TV viewing audience.
Why do you think Costco still sells blank VCR tapes? They only sell stuff that moves large volumes...
@MauriceVintersorg: You are correct, however if you read the text as a whole, the author dumbed down the "tech" for clarity by the layman reader.
If you were to look at a Dish or DirectTV converter box the screen for signal strength does in fact use the term "Transponder" on it and the numbers 110 and 119 are found there.
All in all the article was well written for the layman to understand, which I think was the authors intent?
Not trying to argue, just to clarify my friend. ;-)
@Shadowman615: I've never had a good experience with a Comcast installer, either. They make you take a whole day off work because they can't give you an estimate that's less than six hours wide. And then half the time they don't even show up. Or they show up, do the install, then forget to file the paperwork, so the company thinks you're stealing cable and disconnects it again. (Actually happened to me.)
@Darrone: We decommissioned our VCR only two days ago.
On ingress . . . a former friend of mine who lived (and maybe still does) near the broadcast towers in the Rochester, NY area used to have to combine a pair of rabbit ears and a coaxial switch into his TV setup. If he was watching channel 8, 10 or 13 (the VHF OTA channels), he had to throw the switch into the rabbit-ears position to get a good signal. All other channels (including the ones broadcast on UHF) worked fine via cable, as may be expected.
This should be resolved with DTV, but new problems may take its place (i.e. interference may remain a problem, but will look different).
On another note, don't sign until you've inspected it, and don't pass it if you can't see it. My mother-in-law signed for an installation that was finished up after dark, and when she looked at the outside of the house and saw what she had signed for, she went thermonuclear. I got the company to fix it, though, by threatening to post the photos I'd taken on line and telling my story to the Consumerist. They found a loophole in their procedures and policies that then allowed them to send out a tech for free to fix the mess. They filed it as a damage claim in order to make it happen.
@Saboth: I'm 38 and I don't have kids. I use my VCR pretty regularly -- no DVR, and a bunch of stuff I can't or don't want to replace with DVD.
@mbd: I think this is kind of the crux of the whole issue: what they mean by "free" may not be what the customer understands "free" to mean. Although this post is very useful and provides a lot of insight into the whole installation process, I still tend to side with the original customer - if the company promises "free, professional" installation, it had better be completely free and completely professional, including parts and labor, and taking aesthetics into consideration within reason. If that is not what they're actually offering, the company needs to make it clear from the beginning that certain exclusions may apply.
@TheFuzz53: I don't understand why wall fishing gets a markup. My ex crawled into our crossbase and split one of our cable lines, and fished it into my bedroom. It took about a half-hour, total, from start to finish. *shrugs*
I had a problem for a long time with Directv and they couldnt figure out what was wrong until when they came out for the 5th time they decided to go on the roof and look at the dish and it turns out the dish was loose and not properly aligned, they should have done that the first time.
This guy knows very little about satellite installs. Sat 110 and 119 are for Dish network and you want to look at the transponders 11 and 12 on both to make sure you have a good signal a signal in the mid 70 or so is fine due to the new meter in the receivers. Some Dish Network subscribers will have 61.5 or 129 if they have HD On direct TV it on sat 101 usually but sometimes there are others. Snap_n_Seal is a brand name fitting not a style. I also know that on the back of the Dish network work orders it also states a standard install is free and consists of up to 200' of RG-6 cable penetration through one wall and floor, all connections, grounding equipment, weather sealant Mounting of hardware on a eave, chimney, tripod,or pole with up to 50' of trenching. It also says anything else is a extra fee. So if Dish promises you a free install and you want it 150'from the house I will do it but I hope you enjoy trenching the other 100'
Here was my thing with DirecTV:
February 2008: a breaker in my house blew and DirecTV signal went out. No service for nine days. I did receive a credit on my account.
(Forget date): DirecTV technician from a subcontractor of theirs (the one that installed it originally) came out and found junction port in outside box shorted out. He was mystified, but he fixed it.
March 30: I went to Circuit City and bought a new digital TV and surround sound system. The CC installers tried to put a surge suppressor on my equipment (I was later informed by DirecTV's CSR that I couldn't do that, as it would violate my Protection Plan) but it kept tripping, so I told them just to forget the surge suppressor and hook it up the way my old TV was. When they tried to hook it up to the satellite box, the TV EXPLODED. Circuit City replaced the TV. No satellite service because we were all afraid to touch it.
April 7: DirecTV technician from the same subcontractor came out. He told me the electrical outlet wasn't grounded and the DirecTV box was required to be plugged into a grounded outlet. Original installer said NOTHING about this, and installed the box into the outlet anyway. I had no way of knowing this until the TV exploded. He told me to call them back when I had a grounded outlet. I called an electrician and he installed a brand new grounded outlet with its own dedicated breaker. The DirecTV box was fried, so Customer Service shipped me another. I missed a whole day of work because of this. Boss not happy.
April 9: New box arrived. Brigid (CSR in Oregon) worked above and beyond the call of duty to help me set it up over the phone. The primary cable appeared not to be working. Secondary cable hookup worked, but box kept resetting itself as if it was having seizures. Brigid sent me another box. She scheduled another service call, but it was again a week before they could come out.
I had called the subcontractor, and the best they could give me (twice) was that "I can put you on a priority list" which, as we all know, doesn't exist. Finally I called them and asked to speak to the manager. The CSR asked me if she could know why, and in my most polite voice, I said, "You certainly may!" and told her. She put me on a conference call with the supervisor. I explained everything to him. He said the original tech who had installed DTV in the first place was no longer working there. From his tone, I didn't ask why!
Finally, I told them that every day I was out, I didn't have to pay. DTV wasn't getting any money from me. Two days later, I had someone out and it was fixed.
I was polite, and explained what I wanted and it worked. I did write a letter, but I never had to send it.
P.S. - I'm still a DTV customer. They even tried to raise the price on me and I protested and it went back down. Whee!
I built a house a few years ago. The easiest way to handle cabling is to plan ahead so that drilling isn't necessary. However, this takes a bit more planning than waiting to have it installed by an installer. (And will probably cost more, and require that you understand a little more about what you are doing.)
I went overboard in building my house, and put blue flexible conduit from a central structured wiring panel out to each location I wanted a network jack, phone jack, or coax. This ends up being a bit tricky because you have to get the builder to let you do it. (I made it a condition of the contract that they would give me a week to do it. They complained about it, but when you are spending the kind of money you spend to build a house, it is a small thing for the builder. It just slows them down. In this building economy, they should just be happy you are building with them!)
I started with a drawing of the floor plan of my house. It doesn't need to be full blueprints, just something basic such as the marketing material most builders use. I then sat down with my wife, and pondered where we might possibly have various pieces of equipment, and what equipment might go there. The trick here is to be creative and REALLY forward thinking if you intend to stay in the house any length of time. (If you don't, then just make sure the installer seals the holes they drill.)
If you want to use conduit, go ahead and run it to those locations, if not, just run the cable to those locations. All of the hardware to run the cables (along with the cable itself) can be purchased a some place like Home Depot.
For the outside installations, put a box outside and bring a cable to it. (Check with your builder. You may need to use a metal box. Also it is a good idea to tell them where they are so they don't cover them over with brick, stucco, or whatever the outside of your house is made of.) Once the outside of your house is complete, terminate the cable, and put a water proof box on the side of your house. The boxes usually look like plasic bubbles, and have knock outs in the bottom to run cable in.
It is usually a good idea to install more cable outside than you could possibly use. My first DirecTV dish needed a single coax. But now I have a Dish Network dish that needs 2. It also makes sense to think about where you would want to install a dish if you were to get one. (Even if you don't think you ever will. You never know.)
If you install these things outside, then when the installers come over, if you did it right, they should be able to leave their drills in the car. (But, be prepared for the installers to look at you funny and ask you if your builder did it. ;)
As I hinted at earlier, this could be expensive depending on how much you do. The conduit ran me nearly $1000 for the amount I used. The cable was a few hundred. All of the structured wiring pieces I put in to tie everything together had an MSRP of around $10k. (But, you can get it WAAAY cheaper if you look around. And if you don't go crazy like I did.)
If you aren't going to do conduit through your whole house, you may want to think about at least doing it from a central location out to the side of your house. That way as technology advances, you can easily replace the connections that come in.
I guess I'm the only one who had a smooth and professional DirecTV installation. Also have been very happy with the service. Of course I watched the installer like a hawk to make sure he didn't do anything stupid.
In my neighborhood, which has underground wiring, Comcast is famous for, when hooking up a new house, leaving the new cable running across the sidewalk to the home, waiting 6-12 weeks before the digging crew buries the cable.
And during the next big rain, watching to see how many comcast cables float to the surface, or get slashed by someone's lawnmower.
We've been considering switching from Time Warner to DirectTV, but I'm really nervous about them comming to my house and drilling holes or mounting anything. I also want Free installation, and don't want to be jerked around. I think I'm just gonna pass on the whole thing entirely.
There's absolutely no reason that it should cost extra. Fishing a wire is in the electrician 101 class. It is the simplest thing an electrician can do.
@Adam Holcomb: Is this bad?
(I was totally waiting for somebody to say the accidently bit. THANK YOU! :D :D)
Mostly good advice, but the checking of the cable channels advice is second rate. There are much better methods than eyeballing SD channels, and even the mention of a VCR (seriously?) puts that a bit out of date.