Meanwhile my shares in F linger in the abyss. The GOP is always screwing me one way or another.

has anyone pointed out that these hilljack senate republicans are bankrolled by foreign car companies who operate transplants in their respective states?

@cubejockey: Are those foreign owned plants the ones that are making products that people want (not to mention money enough to pay their employees without resorting to begging for welfare)?

@cubejockey: Not true. The local paper (Birmingham) did an article on it about a week ago...our in-state manufacturers DO compete with the big three, but they also share a supplier base. They're neutral on the whole thing.

@cubejockey:
There was an article yesterday (can't recall where) that said that BMW and Mercedes (Dailmer) would NOT benefit from the fall of one (or more) of the Big 3. They would actually be harmed by a failure. Whether Toyota/Honda/etc. would benefit is another story.

@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: And by that, I mean they don't lobby against the bailout.

@cubejockey: Everyone has a conspiracy theory. The bottom line is that if it passes, it'll help retain jobs for Americans, if it doesn't, someone will work harder and fill the void left by the loss of the big three.

I feel that if they can't make cars that are desired by the public, then they should fail and go out of business.

It seems to me that we're much more likely to see a return on the bailout of the auto companies than we are from the bailout of the big banks.

The auto companies are asking for 34 billion, getting 14 billion. How much did we give to AIG? Are any of us really naive enough to believe we're going to see the money from AIG ever again? And that completely ignores all of the other banks / financial institutions. Those jagoffs are good at one thing...making and keeping money. I guess that's actually two things.

While in principal I vehemently oppose government intervention in private business (bailout/regulation/etc.), I think the fallout from a Big-3 failure would cripple the US economy. The jobs lost in the middle class (who represent a lot of US spending) would domino into all other industries and classes, as businesses cease to be profitable and cut spending on labor, advertising, capital expenditures (office upgrades), general R&D investment, etc. It's already happening now to a small degree, but the devastation that would follow GM/Ford/Chrysler going under would be the straw that broke the camels back.
I think the bailout is a bad idea, but it's necessary. I'm not defending GM/Chrysler/Ford here. I think that this whole situation is almost nothing but their own doing. They let the Unions get the upperhand, and now have hugely inflated labor costs (pay, benefits, pension) and no flexibility to easily cut costs. They can't just shut down a plant for a month, because they still have to pay the workers over 75% (90% in some cases) of their salary to sit idle. Their designs are crap (Relative to European/Japanese cars) and their management is stubborn and out of touch. So long as the bailout has some very big strings attached (management changes, etc.), I think it needs to be passed.

i just got the following email i wonder if its true.

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.
What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a PhD.

Then there's the "Job Bank"
When a D3 (Detroit 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.

Here's a typical story....
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.

Now the D3 wants Joe Taxpayer to pick up this tab in a $25 Billion bailout package - soon to be increased to $45 Billion if Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton have their way.
The "Big 3" want this money - not to build better autos. No. They want it to pay the tab for Medical and Retirement benefits for RETIRED auto workers. Not ONE PENNY would be used to make them more competitive, or to improve the quality of their cars.
We ALL have problems paying for our Medical Insurance - but the Democrat leaders in Congress now want us to pay the Medical Insurance premiums of folks who have RETIRED from Ford, GM and Chrysler.
Not a good deal for us.
How about Chapter 11 - and getting rid of these ridiculous union contracts?

And once again they have added the pork, according to Fox the bill also give a nice pay raise to Federal judges. Let them fail, does anyone really think they will making money anytime soon? This is just a bandage bill.

It's obvious that Senators outside of the Midwest, well, hate the Midwest and can't wait for us to collectively hit double-digit unemployment.

Sure, blame the GOP for trying to NOT throw good money after bad. Where is all this money coming from? Why are 1/2 the corporations in America failing? Debt! So we go further into debt to solve the problem? Get real people - we're just kicking the can down the road and all this deficit spending is going to make the crash all the harder. I'm sorry these people are going to lose their jobs, but taking the rest of us down with them isn't going to help anyone.

@JohnDeere:
The "compensation" numbers aren't entirely accurate. The $70+ per hour figure includes actual base pay (cash compensation), benefits, pension and the cost to pay benefits for retirees. (See yesterday's NY Times article). The figures to which you compare are probably just actual salary (cash compensation). That said, it's still pretty absurd that it costs GM/Ford/Chrysler $150k per year for an average employee, or even $100k. A lot of these people are unskilled assembly line workers. The Unions really are a huge problem, and they have, over time, crippled GM. That said, the Union's aren't their ONLY problem.

@JohnDeere: The $70/hr wage argument has already been crushed by multiple sources, as far as I know.

@AngrySicilian: The GOP? Ok, you're an idiot. The unions are screwing you over.

Do you know that toyota and GM sold the same amount of cars last year? Toyota posted billions in profit, GM posted billions in losses. Who caused that? The union workers who cost 10x as much.

But go ahead and hate the GOP. God forbid you wise up.

I hope we can have an educated discussion about this and try to keep this in perspective. It's crucial to understand what caused the auto industry to fold, and to understand what it could do to our economy if it did fold.

This isn't abortion, gay rights, or anything of the nature, and so I hope we can keep party politics out of it as much as possible. The GOP is doing what they think is right. So are the democrats.

I understand a lot of people here are against the bailouts. And it probably scares you to be on the side of the GOP. But this time the GOP is on your side, not the side of the corporations. It's okay to agree with the GOP. It doesn't make you a republican.

I don't want this bill to pass. I think my kids' kids have to pay enough for CEOs' greed.

@blackmage439: Yep, many many times:

[www.portfolio.com]

@Bladefist: I guess my question is this: why give the CEOs on Wall Street $750 BILLION for their Christmas parties and "secret retreats" and million dollar bonuses, but not a fraction of that to save millions of blue collar jobs?

I don't like it. Yahoo just had layoffs and the tech industry is suffering. Are they getting government bailout money? You wouldn't see the government bail out Wal-Mart or Starbucks right? I didn't spend money and time getting a degree, years of experience, and tons of my free time to gain knowledge in programming only to be told that I would have to pay for some low level production line guy to keep his job when it was hard enough for me just to find a job.

I don't care about them. I've been laid off twice from tech jobs and the government didn't help me out. If they lose 2 million jobs, oh well. The government said I didn't even quality for aid or unemployment. Maybe they should go get real jobs that pay real wages that actually reflect what they deserve. No one gave me a handout when I lost my job because the company I worked for wasn't doing so well.

Both of these bailouts just prove that the government thinks we should all suffer equally for the bad decisions of a few people.

By the way, does anyone else smell bacon?

Fast forward to 2009, headlines will read..

* Bailout plan not working, Big 3 file for bankruptcy. CEO's step down, with huge compensation package.

* Honda opens another plant. Employing thousands of American workers, stimulating local economy.

I'm surprised at how many people think that if this bill doesn't pass, all of the car companies will cease to exist. This simply is not true. If the bailout doesn't pass, you will see bankruptcy, restructuring of organizations, renegotiation of contracts (especially with unions), some layoffs (not everyone), and the companies (if they are smart) will use it as an opportunity to become more competitive.

Why do you think the foreign car manufacturers are doing way better than the US manufacturers? Higher profit margins due to lower operating costs. They are simply better at competing.

I'm always trying to figure out why democrats and left-leaning people blame all of the big problems in the world on large corporations, yet they want to spend TAX PAYER money to bail these "problem makers".

Its not like these CEOs will say "Well, we didn't get any bail out money, everybody go home. We'll just shut all of our doors and never do business again."

I'm telling you, an organized bankruptcy is a MUCH better option for these companies than a bailout will ever be.

@Bladefist: Don't call me an idiot blade, I've seen enough of your posts on consumerist to point out plenty of your stupid remarks.

You're reading into my comment without taking a moment to think that I'm talking about F, the ticker symbol. I am losing money because the GOP is making it hard to pass this bill.

I don't give a shit about anything but myself in this instance.

And phuck off with this wise up business, seriously.

@Bladefist: Do you have any proof that Toyota pays 1/10 what GM does for their workers wages?

@AdvocatesDevil: I'm against the whole package. It won't work. And the money they are asking for will only sustain them temporarily. The CEOs are not a big concern of mine.

Did you know they top 3 Autos spend more money on health care then steel? The problem lies somewhere else.

@Bladefist: and by the way, since you are attacking unions and complaining about auto loans to the big 3... how about those tax breaks that your redneck bible thumping senators gave to attract the Japanese makers in the "right to work" states. Union contracts are negotiated, they are not unilateral (unlike your buddy Bush's approach to the world).

/rant

@AngrySicilian: I am losing money because the GOP is making it hard to pass this bill.

That assumes the stock will rebound when the bill passes. Still to be determined...I'm not convinced that will happen.

@AngrySicilian: Your losing money because you didn't diversify.

And if you work for one of them, or a vendor of theirs the bailout will only stimulate them for a few months. Then its bankruptcy time.

And it's obvious your only thinking about yourself. And, ya, you still need to wise up.

@Bladefist: I'm for the American worker. If the loan is what is needed to allow these companies to stay in business, so be it. We gave lots of money to the financial companies where there were white collar workers on the line, let's show some compassion for the the blue collars. Yeah make them shape up, but don't screw them over.

@Canino: Why would it? Does this bailout have anything to do with people going out and buying cars? Isn't there still a credit issue when buying cars? The stock will do nothing.

@karlrove: I actively lobby my senators to vote against any pro-midwest legislation.

None of the automakers will fail. Bankrupty means restructuring, not closing up shop.

@AngrySicilian: "And phuck off with this wise up business, seriously. "

You should take the advice. You could use it.

@AngrySicilian: Whatever it takes to bring non-union companies to the US. Unions are unamerican :)

@AngrySicilian: The companies will stay in business regardless, through bankruptcy. The question is, do we blow billions of tax dollars before we realize bankruptcy is happening anyway.

@Bladefist: Boys.. i have been investing for longer than some of you have been shaving. I don't need a lesson on diversification. This is a separate venture and yes, I'm rolling the dice. Christ, you people take all the fun out of life.

@Bladefist: Funny... union workers literally built this country.

@AngrySicilian:

The first bailout has worked how? So its OK with you to give The Big 3 money so they can prolong their bankruptcy from 3 to 6 months?

GM sold as many cars worldwide as Toyota yet GM continues to lose money while Toyota makes money.

You can sit around and blame the GOP all day long if it makes you feel better. This is exactly what both political parties want. Half the people blaming the other party. You are part of the problem as you buy into one parties bullshit over the other, as if your party is any better.

The sooner you wake up and realize that you will get screwed either way, maybe then you can start making wise financial decisions. Or do you just prefer to be screwed by someone with a (D) in front of their name?

@Bladefist: Bailout does not equal loan...

@AngrySicilian: I don't care how old you are, maybe you have a memory loss problem. I've been following this stuff to a finite detail. I come here prepared for debate, and I end up arguing with people who are running totally off emotions with not a clue of what is actually going on here.

Not saying that is you, but so far I haven't been impressed with your knowledge of this. And no offense, but investing in Ford was not a good way to show you know whats going on. This has been compounding for someday. Ford didn't wake up after a booze filled weekend and realize they were in big doo doo.

@AngrySicilian: I know its a loan.

@Canino:

Oh don't worry, look at the financial markets that received a bailout! They are doing great. Credit if flowing like cheap Russian vodka. Companies are hiring everybody and their dog and paying them major $$$!

So of course giving $$$ to the Big 3 will make all of the little guys run out and buy probably 3 Chevy Tahoe's for each and every member of their family.

You sir, need to stop drinking from the negative-nelly bottle! Everything will be just fine!

@AxleGrease:
The concern with Bankruptcy is whether people will buy new cars from a bankrupt company. This is why they claim it won't work. While I'm skeptical, I can at least see the logic in it.

@AngrySicilian: It's not the workers I hate, its the unions. If the big 3 didnt have unions, it's possible they would have a lot more job security right now.

@Trick: If you knew what I did for a living you might be laughing about that buying into one parties bullshit line.. but anyhow. No, Trick, I realize that it all boils down to money and everyone is full of shit. When I posted that first comment, I was JUST talking about the affect of what the GOP was doing on Ford's share prices. Everyone else read into it (especially Blade).

I have to get back to real work now... so everyone feel free to flame me as much as you like, without retort.

@Bladefist: You gotta watch out for calling others "idiots", since anyone that does so immediately brings people to think, "pot, meet kettle".

Questions:
* What % of an auto's mfg cost is labor-related?
* Once legacy costs of retired US employees are stripped, what is cost differential btn US-based US & Japanese automakers?
* If a workers negotiate a deal that execs sign off on, why is it the worker's fault? Don't you believe in accountability?
* Have you been asleep the past two years, when the Big Three ran all their Employee Pricing, 0% APR deals? Selling crappy, oversized cars at a loss doesn't work well. Your point that Toyota made billions? Proves the point
* * Which provides more ammo to the claim that it's the exec's stoopid decisions that have destroyed the US auto industry, not their workers.
* Toyota sells cars people want at a profit. The Big Three do the opposite. Who has a more viable business model? How would screwing retired workers - now of all times - help this core problem?

And yeah, if Republicans are tossing out misinformed data-points, confident that the Freepers will gobble them up and propagate them, solely to rape workers while avoiding fixing the core problems (created by the execs), then yeah, the GOP is screwing us over (or trying to (yet again)).
And, what does it say about the gullibility and intelligence of people who do use these misguiding data-points? Intelligent or idiotic?

@LatherRinseRepeat:

The "we will fail" extortion racket worked so well for the banking industry, why wouldn't it work for the big 3. Either way they are going down.

But the "smart" people prefer they go down in three to six months than now...

@Bladefist: I've made a 49% return so far on F over a three week period. I'm doing just fine, but thanks for your concern. I have literally 589 dollars left in the stock, playing with the houses money. If It goes down to 1 penny I'll still be making over 48% of a return. Like I said, you read way into what I was expressing and I'm sorry that it blew up into this big ideological masturbatory session.