well, that was anti-climactic... a link to a story headline and bi-line, but no stories? WTH dude?

@SexCpotatoes: Click the plus sign to advance the story.

I have Liberty Dollars made of silver. There was no fraud involved at all, since the certificates were all backed by physical precious metal holdings that the LD people actually had. The only fraud was when the government swept in and stole the precious metal.

There are no laws against establishing an alternate currency, provided nobody is getting ripped off. It doesn't make the government very comfortable, though, so for the good of the Federal Reserve Bank the Liberty Dollar had to be made an example of.

@speedwell: Hrm... shut down a real precious-metals-backed currency but then give $1T to the crooks peddling CDOs and pixie dust. Fraud what?

I am interested: does there exist out there, anywhere, a reputable issuer of gold or silver certificates, or other handily tradeable commodity-based certificates?

@opsomath:

If it works like stocks, you can actually purchase them yourself from a broker, and request the actual certificates.

My friend actually has a piece of paper microsoft stock framed on his wall that he got from his dad a long time ago... too bad it's sunk so low in real money now...

@opsomath: There does exist real gold and silver, which you can purchase for US Dollars.

Check out [www.kitco.com] for the going rates, conveniently provided in your currency.

I bought a $10 Liberty Dollar from this guy a few years ago.

There's nothing wrong with Liberty Dollars, but his marketing is kind of shady. I've seen videos where he offers the Liberty to people ("the drop") and they'll gladly take it instead of a greenback. But I'm pretty sure they think it's legal tender, not just a silver piece. That's where the problem is.

@zigziggityzoo: Yes, I second Kitco as one of the best out there. I also do some business with Monex (for people interested in buying and holding physical metal) and they have been good to me even though I am quite a small investor.

Well, why didn't the federal government raid Disneyland and Disneyworld for selling and trading Disney Dollars?

Wow, that's really hard to read.

The article points out that the site is booming based on the huge slide of the US Dollar.

Since that slide is ancient history, and the US dollar is trading at record highs against the Euro, Pound and Swiss Franc, how's that working out for them now? Just curious, because any one who would buy an "alternative currency" today when the regular currency markets are the only market producing profits, eh... I dunno, doesn't make sense.

@youbastid: Disney doesn't make any claims about the their 'currency' being usable outside the parks. This form of arbitrage is no more or less legal than department store gift cars. Liberty Dollars encouraged people to 'barter' with their silver coins in place of greenbacks. Unlike a VISA card though, there is no way for merchants to participate in the arbitrage of precious metal coins, and as such the coins face value of is useless as a determinant of value. Just like if you try use foreign currency to make a purchase, the merchant would have to call around to determine the value of weight of precious metal present and there would be no equitable way to make change.

Vin Suprynowicz inspired me to start attending church again.

Since Liberty Dollars were made from REAL gold and silver, they ARE REAL money, no matter what the DOJ says or what the coins say on them. They are just trying to cover up the fact that our paper money is just paper with fictional value. What the DOJ did is a CRIME.

@Ben Popken: That has to be one of the worst designed, hard to read, and annoying websites ever.

I bought some of this guy's coins a few years ago. I would much rather have an ounce of silver in my pocket that is actually worth around ten bucks than a piece of paper that our government just prints when they need more. Oh, 200 billion dollar bailout? We better get those printing presses moving!

@humphrmi: Wait what? US Dollar at record highs against the Euro? in October 2000 the dollar hit a high against the Euro: 1 US Dollar bought 1.62 Euros.
Today 1 US Dollar buys 0.8 Euros.
The US Dollar is barely off a record low of 0.6 Euros set in July.

@opsomath: This is actually a bad time to invest in gold or silver. The collapsed economy has dramatically increased demand, so prices are very high.

The Liberty Dollar is a product designed to mislead the consumer. The "dollars" are not worth the amounts labelled on their sides, and von NotHaus promotes a multilevel marketing scheme to propagate the dollars while doing everything possible to make them resemble U.S. currency. At best it is just barely legal.

[shii.org]

@speedwell:

Well you got to remember the "Fed" is not federal and it has no reserves. It is a *privately* owned bank.

They currently have a monopoly on fraud (creating and printing money out of nothing) so essentially they are a criminal racket and they will enforce that monopoly with blood. Such a thing as this doesn't surprise me.

@Avery: I don't see anything misleading here. You are a fool to think that actual gold and actual silver are worthless compared with US Dollars.
When the economy truly crashes, the people holding something tangible like gold and silver will be the only people not begging in the streets.

"The silver in a coin is never worth as much as the amount printed on it"

That's a direct quote from the article. Now let's assume a couple of things. Let's assume that the worth (not an dollar amount, but the intrinsic worth) of gold and silver is constant. By trading in certificated tied to gold or silver, you would be trading in constant currency. That would mean inflation would not be a factor at all in imports or exports. Now say today you go and buy a liberty coin with whatever other currency you choose. On the coin it says, "hey, look at me, i'm worth x oz. of silver." BUT! In reality, the silver in the coin is some amount less than x oz. Now, the whole premise of the liberty dollar / bill is that your can take your coin or bill and get actual gold or silver from it that's of the amount described on the note or coin. But if the actual silver in the coin is less than the amount described on the coin, how do you get the full worth of your liberty coin?

Sounds like a fairly elaborate way to get people to pay for silver coins at a price higher than they're actually worth.

@AgentTuttle: That is false. Backing your currency in a physical commodity doesn't give it any intrinsic value. Money is a legal and social construct that only holds value because we believe it does.

@elephantattack: Gold and silver are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Plus, should the economy 'truly' crash, perhaps having edible things is more prudent.

Hmm...Liberty Eggs...

@Avery:

Not only that, but it's generally thought of that a currency needs to be universally accepted in a country. This obviously is not. This is a step back to the bad old days where each bank had its own note and some people would accept some notes and not others. Hence why the government made a universal note.

Plus, what do we have, besides his word, that he doesn't oversell his gold and silver supply? This is the problem with all backed currencies. Plus, a rush on the currency will very quickly make one devoid of the backing material and crash the currency. This is one reason I'd rather have our "faith and credit" backed dollars.

@speedwell: there is a law against establishing an alternative currency. it's called the constitution.

article 1, section 8:

The Congress shall have power...To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

article 1, section 10:

No State shall...coin Money;

then, the 10th amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

@B: Everything I've read says that gold and other precious metals are the only game in town, right now. That could just be chatter, because they said the same thing about oil and gold two years ago.

The biggest difference between investing in gold and investing in other hard commodities is that gold has inherent value that is stable and reclaimable. When the economy is crappy, when the stock market and banks are not trusted, when other forms of investment (bonds, real estate, etc.) are not desirable (thanks Fed!), or when war is looming, these are the times to invest in gold and other precious metals.

Now, once/if it starts looking like Obama is turning the country around towards liquidity and financial responsibility, then you can stop buying gold and pull out.

@mac-phisto: Um, what?

By your own quote, the people ARE allowed to coin money. The first quote says that congress can coin money, not that they're they ONLY entity that can coin money. The second says the state can't do it, and the third says that if it's not specifically prohibited by the state or country, the people can do it.

Coining your own money is illegal now, but it didn't used to be when this country began.

@etherealclarity: no, see the 10th amendment is an exclusionary clause. article 1 delegates the power of coining to congress & not to the states. the 10th amendment makes that power exclusive. the people don't have the right to coin money b/c that right has already been delegated.

Watch Money Masters!
You can see it online free here:
[video.google.com]

Or pay $30 for the DVD here:
[www.themoneymasters.com]

Or download it from a torrent. It will open your eyes to the entire concept of money and how corrupt our system is.

@mewyn dyner: Oh yeah, I'd much rather have money that's printed out at the government's convenience than money that's actually backed. And you'd rather have "'faith and credit' backed dollars"? What the hell is wrong with you? Backed money is definitely worth it and if I can find these Liberty Dollars anywhere, I will absolutely buy them, illegal or not.

Seems too much in the realm of tin foil hats and aliens to me.

@Telekinesis123: I'm not sure where the Internet got this notion that the fed is a private bank, but it's a gross misstatement to say that it's privately owned.

It is a government institution with private components. Some of the officials that run the fed are appointed by the government others are appointed by the member banks. These member banks do own stock, but it's not traditional stock that can be bought, sold, or used as collateral. The stock used to create the capital that the bank needs, but it does not give ownership like a traditional stock.

Honestly, it's a complicated system, but look at Americas place in the global economy, even during this downturn, and you can't say that the system doesn't work.

@humphrmi: Actually there's no other asset based currency around in the world anymore. So there's no proper way to compare it. You could compare it to gold and silver currently. Sadly you have to look on ebay for the actual price of gold or silver, as in the last 6 months or so it's been manipulated very heavily. Currently on Ebay gold is trading around 1000 dollars for one Oz. Any asset based currency would be beating the pants off of the fiat currencies still.

Part of this is very basic basic economics. If you have any currency that depreciates (it can be inflated), there is incentive to not save. (After all just by keeping it around it will evaporate.) There is also more incentive to borrow money (again what you have to pay back will be worth less, so why not?)

Capitalism is based on "capital" (savings). You need it to invest, or loan to others, or use to keep you afloat when times are tough.

If people have only debt they have no wealth. (Other people technically own everything you've purchased.)

A system that promotes this is inherently flawed. I don't care what reason you cite for it being this way, aliens, space lasers or greedy bankers. It has to change before people can be prosperous.

@billbobbins: You pretty much contradicted yourself there. You'd rather have silver than dollars, but yet you value silver because it's worth dollars. Heh.

@speedwell: @Meshuggina: Sure it works, just not well.

One obvious clue that the whole thing was at best a tongue-in-cheek satire: The guy is calling himself Bernard "von NotHaus" (nut-house). Whatever it was, it definitely wasn't a serious attempt to establish an alternate currency.

@etherealclarity: Well, you're either ignoring or not understanding this modifier in the 10th amendment (emphasis added): "The powers not delegated to the United States..."

The power to coin money is delegated to congress in Article I Section 8, hence it is a delegated power. And therefore off limits to everyone save the US government.

I'd be a little less skeptical of his monkey business if, upon quitting the Liberty dollar business, von NotHaus founded something like "The Free-Thinkers Association for Sound Monetary Policy", and not the "Free Marijuana Church".

...screw the Liberty dollar.......I just want to know when they have communion at The Free Marijuana Church..

One one hand, mandatory Economics 101 courses would extinguish many crackpot's dreams of seminar success and the cries of needing only monetary policy to adjust the economy would land on deaf ears.
On the other hand, the comments on Consumerist economics topics would be drop by a quarter. So I guess ignorance of basic economics is a mixed blessing?

Seeing as how the Liberty dollar wasn't created by The Federal Reserve (central bank) the bankers have no control because the LD has actual value. Our currency (the U.S. dollar) isn't actually backed by anything other than more money. It's just paper with a pretty design which is there to fool you into believing that it's worth something. I support anyone who wants to rid themselves of the slavery inducing debt of the U.S. Dollar. It's all a bunch of bullshit if you ask me. They're just trying to keep the little guy down by not allowing us to grow economically smarter.

I had some dollars backed by tin, until everyone started using them to make hats.

Why would you buy money from someone whose name sounds so close to 'nut-house'?

If this guy thinks his currency is so much better than US dollars, why does he sell them for... US dollars?

Yeah, the article shows pictures of him throwing his currency up in the air. Great photo. I bet the dollars he's received for his coins are tightly locked up in a safe.

@AgentTuttle: How, other then being shiny, is gold and more valuable than paper?

@GC: i thought developing competing currencies was encouraged on the state level, as in, each state *should* be printing its own currency, but must not call it "money" as to avoid confusion.
i think the confusion here is when people read it as "noone but the gov't can print MONEY" as to mean "noone can make anything resembling a currency but the gov't".
This all seems ironic, since the fed is an illegally established monopoly and not part of the government, as it acts independantly forcing the gov't to issue bonds to make the currency more solvent.

@Lars: You are very wrong Lars, "backing a currency in a physical commodity" is EXACTLY what establishes it's intrinsic value.
Our USA Dollars are a fiat money, which is, money backed by nothing.

You have that part backwards.

The rest of what you said is right on though.