First off, as part of the Fair Debt Collection Act, you may request that all contact with you (or in this case your mother) be in the form of US mail. Specifically state that they are not to call you. (Even better if you state to forward all communications with a lawyer, but that might get expensive). I would send them a Certified letter asking for proof of the debt, what it is for, when your mother opened an account with AMEX, when and how your father closed his, and to only contact you by certified mail. Then at a minimum, you have them saying in writing that they committed fraud. Their is lots of good info out there about the FDCA, read it, it has allowed me to really, really help out friends and family.

it sounds like identity theft, where someone takes your credentials and opens a credit card in your name. Except instead of buying a huge tv, they transferred all the debt they had over to the new credit card.

@QuantumRiff: ... and by having them continue the fraud through the mail it would become Mail Fraud... isn't there something special and interesting about mail fraud in the US?

This is written somewhat confusingly, I'm not at all clear on what exactly happened and what the timeline of events was. Is it possible to post the original letter sent in by the OP?

It would be interesting to have them produce an application form for the card with her as the primary cardholder...

@GreatWhiteNorth: Also get a note from the man's doctor certifying he was indeed in a coma when he supposedly closed the card.

Oh and get a good lawyer too.

@formergr:

Step 1: Step-father enters a coma.

Step 2: Step-father dies.

Step 3: Amex closes account with $15,000 in debt without authorization. The account was in the step-father's name and had the mother as an authorized user. Amex claims the account was closed personally by the step-father... while he was in a coma.

Step 4: Amex then opens the same account in the mother's name to seemingly avoid the Alabama state law which considers authorized users to not be responsible for an account.

Step 5: Credit report douchbaggery ensues. Amex begins collections calls against mother.

Step 6: ?????

Step 7: Profit!

i'd tell them to go ahead and sue me. if the story is true, they won't be able to prove their case, they'll lose, and it will be settled once and for all.

I am shocked and amazed. Is this crappy economy turning Amex into Capital One?!?

that looks like the AmEx Titanium in the photo, no?

WRITE a letter to AMEX AND all three credit companies. Request AMEX to support their claim that you owe them a debt (i.e. a copy of the signed credit card application, etc). Tell the three credit card companies to remove what AMEX has reported as it is untrue. 30 days for both AMEX and the three credit companies should be sufficient enough for them to give you prove and for them to take the reporting off of your credit report. If they do not take it off of your credit report, sue them--take them to small claims.

The sad thing is by the time she stops their bs her credit could be ruined. RUN not walk to a lawyer ASAP.
It is eaiser to stop bs from occuring then fix it after the fact.

Can anyone say AMEX=Epic Fail?

Not only would I have the entire matter cleared up IMMEDIATELY, but I would then turn around and sue AMEX for fraud AND extortion. If Alabama state law says the she is not responsible for the debt, and AMEX opened an account without her permission and transferred the debt to that account, that's fraud. Once they make the first phone call to collect, that becomes extortion. From the Wikipedia page on extortion...

"Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense, which occurs, when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence or a lawsuit which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence or lawsuit is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force, additionally, exact in its formal definition means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or to make somebody endure something unpleasant."

I would hire a lawyer right away, do not pass go, do not collect $200...RIGHT NOW.

Well, just because you die doesn't mean that your debt goes away. Otherwise I could take out a million dollar loan, give the money to my children, and then die and my family would never have to pay the money back - they would be set for life.

So, I think that their family should be liable for the debt and the credit card company has every right to try to go after them to collect. Re-issuing the account in her name and saying the dead guy did it isn't going to hold up but I think they have that family for the debt regardless of this fact.

@fisherstudios: Of course the debt is valid. The post states several times that it appear AmEx just didn't want to go through the proper channels and get the money owed to them through the estate. No one is saying the debt isn't valid...

@fisherstudios: As the article notes, his estate is liable for the debt. That's not being denied. However, there are rules about precedence and probate in receiving money from an estate, and Amex is trying to subvert them in order to get their money faster. It would be fine and ironic if this ended up meaning they don't get their money at all.

@fisherstudios: They are not saying that the debt does not have to be paid, it should be paid from the estate, should there be one. AMEX appears to be trying to avoid dealing with the estate to reclaim the money by transferring the debt to an authorised user by closing the original account and opening up in the authorised users's name.

@blackmage439: Lol nice South park reference there!

I'd be sooo pissed off if this would happen to me. Makes me happy I don't live in the US.

@fisherstudios: Apparently Alabama state law thinks otherwise. There is a specific law in place to protect people in this case, and AMEX are using some extremely underhanded techniques to avoid the law. Nobody's claiming that AMEX are not entitled to try and recover the card balance, not that the family should have no liability. But, to commit this kind of fraud to avoid dealing the the estate lawyer is extremely low.

It's simple. If the account balance is recoverable by claiming against the dead guy's estate, then do that. If not, then state law says they can't claim against the additional card holder.

@fisherstudios:
What you think and what the law thinks are different things, and I'm more inclined to care what the law has to say.

If AMEX goes through the estate process as they are supposed to, it will be settled there.

When an individual has a debt and dies, the debt passes to the estate of the individual. All properties of that individuals estate are used to settle outstanding obligations, generally starting with secured debt (mortgages) and moving down the list. Credit cards are just about last as I recall.

Everyone in the family is NOT liable for the debt, only the debt holder's estate. Now if the debt is jointly owned (she was a primary on the credit card) then she is liable for the debt.

From the first pass at this - I would file a report with the AG, run to the estate lawyer and have them take care of it. (optional additional thing - hire a nice shark lawyer and counter claim for emotional damages for fraudulant debt collection)

fisherstudios ... the ESTATE is on the hook for the debt, not the family.

When you settle and estate, you pay off all debts and taxes first, even if it means you have to sell everything to do it. If the estate doesn't have the money to repay, then the credit issuer is SOL. Estates can be bankrupt. and it means none of the family gets anything.

Fraud is of course excluded in this, and your million dollar example would never work.

If you read the OP, it looks like AMEX pulled this stunt to avoid having to go through the process. Unfortunately, laywering up sounds like the only way to get this resolved.

@blackmage439: Now the question is... who profits?

I put my wife as an authorized user on my credit cards, and now those cards are showing up on her credit report, opened when I opened them years before I even knew her. I wasn't really sure what to think about this, and the accounts were never closed and re-opened unless they did so and never told me (or did tell me in one of those phone-book-sized mailers I get sent every so often).

I don't know if this is legal or not, but that's what's happened.

(new user, I love the username the site selected for me)

@fisherstudios: You are wrong. Family members are not, and should not be responsible for a relatives debt. This is a basic foundation of contracts, that third-parties can not be bound to a contract that they did not sign. The estate is liable, but that is all.

@chrylis: AMEX. Or at least they are trying. I can see the wife making a nice sum against them for this crap.

@zentex:

That is the AmEx Centurion. You must be touched by the hands of God to get one.

On a side AmEx note, I received a letter from AmEx yesterday stating that they will be discontinuing the domestic airline partner program that they had for platinum cards.

A few years ago I had to deal with Amex to settle the estate of my wife. They were by far the most aggressive creditor I had to deal with. They immediately transferred the debt to a somewhat separate collections agency who became the only creditor who actually wrote and called me trying to get payment. They weren't belligerent but they did everything they could to make sure they got paid back as much as possible. Luckily my name was never on the account, and we were separated at the time, and I had all the estate paperwork going through a lawyer. So they never tried to exceed their legal boundaries.

Things are obviously a lot messier here because of Amex transferring the account into her name, and I'm not sure you can fix that by talking to the collections people. Lawyers could get expensive though - unless you find one who can write up a quick letter to scare Amex into quitting. You might start with writing to them yourself - get the names of some managers or executives - with documentation of how Amex appears to have fraudulently made her as the owner of the account, and strongly explain that you have no intention of paying this fraudulent debt and that if they don't cease you will hire an attorney and see them in court.

@fisherstudios: The estate is responsible for the debt. If the estate is being handled by an attorney, AMEX should have gone to the attorney, not the widow. However, depending on state law, once the estate is drained, the widow is only responsible for certain debt. When my step-father died, my mother got harassing calls from a collector from his credit card. They all said "I see he has an estate" and mentioned a checking account he had. These accounts were only in his name, not my mother's. The checking account had a whopping balance of $5. My mother had worked with an attorney who told her she's only responsible for any debt due to purchase of necessities. Since he racked up the debt on non-essentials, she wasn't responsible. Eventually, they stopped calling her, realizing they lost their money.

@GreatWhiteNorth:

They don't need an application since the process of taking over an account is handled over the phone. There isn't a paper application or any signatures involved. There are, however, disclosures that are read and every call is recorded, so the family better be really sure that they didn't initiate this change before they persue a powerful bank like American Express.

@rawsteak: and just happened to spend what the dad owed?

I think my first stop would be with the state's attorney general to see if they'd like to look into the matter. If Amex has done something against the law there might be something that they can do.

See, this is why all credit cards are the spawn of Satan! Debt free for 4 yeas and loving it!

*years@nightsky: *years* dumbass

I don't think we have all the details here. It sounds to me like they contacted American Express at some point and went through the process of making her the primary on the account. American Express wouldn't have known the card member was in a coma. They have millions and millions of card members and they aren't targeting people like that. What probably happened is that the spouse called to add herself onto his account since he was ill and wasn't able to use it. Whatever the conversation was, she was switched to the basic instead of being the additional. That would have required very specific disclosures that are read and those calls are all recorded. American Express is not the sort of company that would just switch someone on an account without authorization. It sounds to me like typical avoidance of responsibility if you ask me.

@crouton976: Dude, I love wikipedia... but using it to shore up a legal case? That's askin' for a dismissal. ;)

What in the wide, wide world of sports is a-goin' on here? I know times are tough right now, but Amex used to be the gold standard of customer service, even through recessions. Did they hire some methadone addicted freak to the C-Suite handling customer service?

@nightsky: I agree. Well, just another reason they're evil. Sure, you might have smooth sailing for years, even if you "always keep a zero balance, and screw THEM over by getting rewards points, while improving my credit score". The times when they truly suck are when an anomoly happens, somebody falls through the cracks, and the evil slimy tentacles reach up and wrap themselves around the victim's legs and start to pull.... "But I've always been a good customerrrrr...." *gulp*

@chrylis: No one would profit. Amex is already out the 15 grand.

His estate would be responsible to pay the debt.

She may have been listed as an authorized user but she is also his wife - does that allow Amex more leeway? I'm not familiar enough with the law dealing with credit and spouses.

(The following comment does not reflect on the person in the story as they look as if they do want to repay the account through the proper channels)

The part that bothers me about many of the posts is the "Stick it to the Man!" style comments.

In a marriage there is no such thing (really) as his debt and her debt.

Long story short, when a spouse dies owing money you can throw the "estate" word around as a shield lot but the money has been spent, is still owed and not repaying is STEALING plain and simple.

It most likely that they sent the wife a new credit card under her name not knowing that the ownership of the account was transferred to her. She then validated the account and used it. But that's just an assumption. Either way, it was a little tricky for AMEX to do such a thing.

@SaparnaSilkworm: ummm....It's a "nice shark lawyer" a contradiction in terms? I agree though, that she should go the estate lawyer. They are likely to have the information necessary to get AMEX to knock it off. However, I would also wonder if there actually is an estate. If this guy died without any significant assets, or a Will, then there wouldn't necessarily be an estate to apply to. Which means that this could be the only way that AMEX would be likely to see any money.

Could it be possible that the amex agreement states that if the primary cardholder dies, then the additional cardholder is made the primary by default, and then responsible for the bill?

Either way, yes, it seems a little shady and a round-about way to get paid, but if the husband had a $15,000 credit card bill (or even a $15 credit card bill) the wife should pay it and move on.

@ocdetails: Reread the entire post. Of course Amex didn't know the father was in a coma, that is why we know they are full of it.
1. Amex claims that the FATHER closed the account while he was in the coma.
2. The mother was obviously an authorized user already, she was his spouse after all.
3. American Express IS the sort of company that would just switch someone on an account without authorization.

Amex really are the scumbags of the CC industry. I was an authorized user on a Business account and when the business went belly up they went after me. I have tried to deal with them and the scummy collection agencies they keep sending (up to 10!). Me and a few other ex-employees have finally filed.... we will see where that gets us. I am honestly not surprised at this, as it is what I have been dealing with.

@ocdetails: You have a point, but it's not like they couldn't back date the information. Like they did with when her account was "opened" on her credit report...

@rushevents: Re: stick it to the man

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of scumbags (American Express).

No, in fact I don't subscribe to a code of ethics where even scumbags deserve to get paid back. Thus, I get to laugh when they get screwed.

This is "Dan." These are the facts I have available:

1. The account was opened prior to the marriage.
2. After marriage, both the wife and son were added as "authorized users" and this is reflected on the credit report of both. You are either an "Authorized User" or an "Individual Responsible."
3. Father-in-law went into a coma late August.
4. Father-in-law died early September
5. Mother-in-law started receiving collection calls mid-September.
6. Mother-in-law told the creditors that he had died, mailed copies of death certificate, and told them to close the accounts.
7. She is told throughout the process she is an 'authorized user' and cannot have information on the accounts. They will go through the estate lawyer (like they are supposed to).
8. At this point, AMEX shows on her credit report as running her credit twice. 9/12/2008 and 10/3/2008, first for an account review, the second as American Express Co. These are the only credit requests this year outside of when she requested her credit report.
9. Both accounts on which she is listed as "authorized user" are now listed as "closed at grantors request 9/08."
10. A new account is listed as "Open/Never Late 12/1982" (which is prior to their marriage) - however Reported Since, Date of Status, and Last Reported are all 09/2008. In addition - balance history is assigned back to 2007.

She has requested documentation only to be told "we don't keep that" and she has repeatedly asked for something with her signature which they refused to give before threatening her credit and demanding she pay the balance.

They are sure to mention "You are the only one on this account" and one collector/AMEX employee demanded to know who "X" was because "he is on the account also" - X being the son who was also an authorized user on the previous card.

Steps I am taking:
1. Reported to Estate Laywer
2. Filing AG reports in both Alabama and Florida
3. Filing BBB reports on AMEX
4. Spreading the news (on sites like this).

She has absolutely no problem paying what 'she' owes, and as the estate process proceeds there is a procedure that creditors can go to in order to get their money or a pro-rated portion of it.

She is 60 years old and doesn't use any credit cards outside of one that she pays off every month. She didn't even know she was listed as an authorized user on many of the accounts we've been informed of.

Much of the spending on these accounts was done without her knowledge regardless, and just because a husband runs himself into debt doesn't make it a joint debt Regardless, the card was opened prior to the marriage and AMEX looks extremely stupid listing it on her credit report with an open date prior to the marriage.

@humphrmi: AMEX is no longer the good guy. I've posted what they did to me too many times, so let's just suffice it to say that while I used to consider them cool, hip, and customer-friendly, now it's obvious that they're just garden-variety credit sharks.

Their ridiculous annual fees are the most hilarious part. As though I couldn't get all the "benefits" they offer with a REAL credit card accepted pretty much everywhere (V/MC), and which I can still pay off every month and incur no interest OR annual fees.