The New York Times has an article today about gender and dining-out. They interviewed Steve Dublanica, author of “Waiter Rant,” and he had some unpleasant things to say about how groups of female diners are treated at restaurants.
Because men can generally put away more food and alcohol, “men spend more, women spend less,” said Steve Dublanica, author of the recent best seller “Waiter Rant.” In addition, he said: “Men eat and leave. Women eat and stick around.” So a server attending to women may have to wait longer “to turn the table over, get another group, get more tips.”
“On a Saturday night,” he continued, “you get these two ladies who walk in and say, ‘We haven’t seen each other in ages, we’re going to talk and talk and talk,’ and they’ll sit for four hours. Women are more verbal than men. That’s a scientific fact. And I’m like, ‘Ladies, I have reservations for these tables. You’ve got to go.’ ”
As a consequence, Mr. Dublanica explained, “Waiters are guilty of treating female diners as second-class citizens.”
The article also explored the reluctance of waiters to let women order wine — and their habit of delivering the bottle to the man at the table, regardless of who ordered it.
Have you been treated this way at fancy restaurants? At not-so-fancy ones?
Old Gender Roles With Your Dinner? [NYT]
(Photo: Groovnick )
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I tip well, which means at least 15%. I never go under unless the service is just absolutely the most atrocious service in the world, and even when I did get that, I tipped 10%. I always tip, and that goes to restaurants and salons. Whenever I get a pedicure, I never assume that these people (generally women) do this because they just love filing down someone’s dirty and nasty feet, or they are there because it’s supposed to be what they’re doing. Tip well, go often enough to be noticed, and you’ll form a relationship that will establish the possibility of freebies later on.
For instance, two or three weeks ago I went to the salon. The person I usually saw was on vacation, so I had to book with someone else, someone I didn’t have previous experience with. This person was recommended to me by a staff member, and let’s just say my experience wasn’t to the level I normally expect. It wasn’t terrible, but for the money I was paying, I expected better. Tonight I call to set up another appointment, since my regular person was back from vacation, and I happened to offhandedly mention that my previous experience was bad. The person I was speaking too immediately comped my next visit. I was impressed, and will be telling friends about my experience there.
The best part about it was that I wasn’t even calling to complain. I just wanted to set up an appointment, and she went above and beyond on the matter to retain me as a customer. I’m actually currently telling two people.
@IHaveAFreezeRay: In some parts of the country , 15% isn’t “tipping well.” I just read in Bon Appetite (for what it’s worth…their word isn’t always gold) that in some areas of the country, anything less than 20% is considered cheaping out even if the service is bad, 20% is standard, and 25%+ is for “better” service.
I disagree with BA that 20% is a server’s “right,” especially if the service is terrible–not just “bad,” but downright awful. It might be good to know, though, what the general tipping customs in your area are so that you know if you really are “tipping well.”
And, lets face it, in the current state of the economy, fewer and fewer people are going to have the financial comfort to dine out, so servers are going to be making less as a result. Is that my fault or your fault? No, but it might be a nice time to throw an extra buck or two their way if we can, and if the service was good.
Another former server here – first at a breakfast diner, then at a small, expensive Italian place.
Really just wanted to add to the anecdotes. Groups of women stay long & demand far more attention. The older they are, the worse they tip. Good news is, you can give them just reasonable service. Anything extraordinary typically isn’t rewarded with more tip.
But old people are the worst, bar none. I remember one incredibly friendly couple, I think they were in their 70s. They ran a $60 tab, & I chatted them up, we had a great time, laughing & all that. As they were getting ready to leave, we were still talking & I noticed the woman taking the bill, scribbling out a number & putting it back.
The original tip they gave me for a $60 meal was $6.00. She had scribbled a tiny circle under the first zero, so now I was getting $6.80. How nice of them! 30% at this place was not uncommon for me, so experiences like these were a bit humbling.
@GeoffinAround: If I were her, I would’ve put just scribbled the entire thing out and put a new number down. But then again, I’m in my 20s and I tip fairly, if not well. I hardly have the extra money to be tipping 30% but I’ll tip fairly.
I don’t like cheap people, and I understand that for old people, cheap is just how they are sometimes. The concept of money and cost of living is how you lived when you were probably 50, so once you’re past that age, whatever seems too much from your decade is too much for you to pay, and I suppose to most of the elderly, service comes with a smile but it’s okay for service to leave with an empty wallet.
So from the waiter’s POV, the ideal customer walks in, spends a lot of money on food and drink immediately, and leaves as soon as possible after leaving a big tip.
Does this sound like the ideal fine dining experience? Maybe it’s just me, but if I’m in a hurry to eat and run, I don’t go to an expensive establishment. I get that the problem is the way the system is set up, but I’m floored at the comments suggesting that the problem is the customers for failing to get their asses out of your way fast enough.
Gee, I think I see another reason some people don’t get tipped.
@mythago: Absolutely! I used to wait tables in high school/college, so I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of the challenges and frustrations associated with being a server. I tip well, even for less than stellar service, because I realize that it’s a difficult and sometimes thankless job. But I’ve never understood the resentment aimed at a party that lingers for too long.
I’m eating in a public establishment. Nowhere does it say that I’m only allowed to stay for a specific amount of time after I’m done eating. I’ll tip you for it accordingly, but I have every right to be there.
Every job has its frustrations. Just because I run into certain roadblocks at work, doesn’t mean that it’s OK to do my job any worse or any shoddier.
The best tippers? Former waitstaff – male or female. I frequently dine with a group of women, some of whom are struggling financially and work HARD for their money. All of us have waited tables at one time or another. We do tie up a table for long periods of time, but only in restaurants that are not waiting to seat other diners, and we tip BIG!
@ZoeSchizzel: I had a professor who would tip her students upwards of 30% when they went out to eat. She said it was because she could spot her students and whenever they were waited on by one of them, she knew how hard they were working to study, do well in school, and make ends meet, and she said it was her way of helping them out.
She was one of the greatest professors I’ve ever had, truly an inspiration to those who desire to help other people.
I guess you go where the money is. When I used to work at Pizzaria Uno we would turn the A/C up pretty high in the summer so that people would not just sit around. If you want to make any money, you have to turn tables…a group of people sitting chatting does not make money.
@baristabrawl: Actually, the scholar that SkokieGuy was alluding to on the previous page (whose page I linked to) notes that that’s not universally true. If the restaurant is packed, waitstaff make money from turning tables, but if it’s not, waitstaff make money from upselling. Except at full times, you’d have made more money from pushing dessert than from pushing people outside.
No offense intended, but I wonder if fat people get even better service, given their reputation for having healthy appetites (and a greater tolerance for alcohol)?
I’m a waitress and I am never sexist about who gets the bill/orders the wine. I am guilty of rolling my eyes when I am sat a table full of women. It’s not that they tend to sit there all night and hold up my table, rather they don’t tip for $hi* and they are usually rude. I can’t even introduce myself (company policy) without someone blurting out their drink order or interrupting me with a question. Keep in mind all customers do this, but the no tipping is usually done by women (sorry to say!) and of course this does not apply to everyone so please don’t get offended.
@courtneywoah: The women aren’t hoping that if they’re nice to you and tip well, you’ll sleep with them.
I have to say I have been guilty of this as a waiter and it is a true stereotype. Waiters dread getting sat with groups of women, as they sit and talk for long periods of time and generally don’t tip as well as men. Example: 2 weeks ago I had a group of 3 women sit at a table and drink and talk for about 3 hours, ran up a bill of around $125, mainly on drinks, and barely left me 15% after splitting the check 2 ways. The same day I had a group men (4) ring up roughly $100 worth of food, were there for barely 45 minutes, and left me $25. I treated both of these parties the same, yet the end result was much different.
I used to wait tables. The worst tippers: Old ladies, black ladies, lunch ladies and frat boys. So the story is correct, they yak too much and don’t tip very well or at all. That is why waiting tables sucks.
That’s not a reason to be rude.
Actually, I think there isn’t a single reason to be rude at a customer. No matter what.
Stop being so bitter and materialistic. What’s the problem if some people don’t give tips? Sometimes a good chat with a customer is worth more than money.
@fonfa: Forgot to say that I worked as a waiter and partially enjoyed it. Loved dealing with customers and hated dealing with boss.
Oh Good. Another article that mentions tipping. That means that we get to hear from the hardcore 30% or so that have closets full of Warsaw Pact-era Bulgarian panties from fatwallet ($1.99 a dozen, lol) and think that a server should supplicate themselves entirely for (ideally) no tip at all.
Or maybe it’s not shaping up that way? Right.
@zibby: fonfa, my post was not specifically in response to you. I hit something wrong.
Women: Much much more picky about what they get, causing more time to be spent on them. “Ugh…I ordered this slightly medium rare, and it is obviously medium rare…send it back!”
They talk 3x longer then men, whereas men want to eat then gtfo. Women are much harder to appease, and if anything isn’t to their liking, they will leave a lower tip. Not to mention they order lighter fair, like salad and water, which also lowers the tip over say, a man taht orders a 16 oz steak and 3 beers. Just do the math…$8 salad vs $25 worth of food at 15% tip.
Anyone that has seen “Waiting” and has worked in a restaurant knows that movie is on the money.
It annoys me to no end that when my ex and I would go out, or even when we go out now, servers will always give him the bill even if I asked for it. I will even say to bring ME the bill, not US to be very specific about who is paying. They will always bring the bill to him. Then if I pay with a credit card, they’ll bring it back for him to sign. If I pay with cash, they’ll try to give him my change. It’s insulting that the server either thinks I cannot afford to eat there or that I wouldn’t tip well.
When I go out with my female friends, we do tend to get crappier service. It’s really silly on the server’s behalf because we all tip very well, don’t ask for separate bills, don’t linger too long, etc. Most of my friends were servers in college and some still bartend or serve. We know how annoying customers can be, so we don’t do that stuff. Most of the paces we gotoanymore are places that we know we’ll get good service at. These places are more than happy to have us there and servers have told us that they like when we come in.
Who the hell wants to sit around in a restaurant and talk for ages after they are done eating? Doesn’t that feel…odd?
Go to a nice bar/lounge or something.
I have a habit of letting the waiter/waitress know how long we intend on being around. If its breakfast, I subtley hint to them we won’t be long. If its Friday night dinner with a few of my friends, I let them know we’ll probably be in there at least 2 hours. When I know its going to be that long, I give them a 5 to let them know I’ll tip well. This also almost insures that I’ll get great service, and by the end of the night, we usually drop 20 or 30 for tip depending on just how long we’ve stayed.
Wow, I love how some of the women are bitching about not getting the check/bill. Guess what women, you really don’t have anyone to blame but yourselves. Seriously, when you go out on a date with a guy, truly, how many of you are expecting to pay for the meal? I know I’m going to get bombarded with messages saying “I can pay for myself!” but that is not my point. Many women out there are more then willing and even expecting for the men to pay on a date. True, this is not to say that all women do this, but the majority will. This isn’t true for the couples in a long term relationship, but for first couple of dates, it is.
Now for people stating that women make less then men, yeah it’s true, but look at it as a surcharge; like when people are on a sinking ship, it’s always women and children first. Hostage situation? Release the women first. etc, etc, etc.
@dveight: The problem isn’t about who actually pays the bill, it’s that the waiter makes an assumption about who pays the bill. There should not be an assumption made about who controls the money, or how finances are spent.
@dveight:
If I ask someone out, I pay.
It’s ridiculous that women are always judged by the stereotype, because by now that’s exactly what it is. No longer does the majority have men pay for their date.
I don’t know any girl that lets a man pay for dinner. Maybe it’s because I’m in Europe or something, but seriously it’s so outdated.
This is how that sterotyping works:
[xkcd.com]
@Madjia:
When I was dating, if the woman paid for her share it was a sign that she wasn’t interested in a follow-up date. That sounds like a European thing because if the man doesn’t at least assume that they will pay for the first date, none of our female friends would go out with them again because the guy is demonstrating a cheapskate behavior. Same with bad tipping.
I will say that I do still feel guilty about one girl that paid for her share on the first date and I assumed that she was uninterested because I ran into her about a month later and I could tell that she would have wanted to go out again. In general, it is a good rule of thumb though, but I point out this counter example to indicate that I understand that none of those stereotypes are universal.
@dveight:
I don’t care about not getting the bill the first time… but if the waiter takes the credit card from me, with an obviously feminine name on it, why return it to him (or my change, etc)? At that point they’ve guaranteed that they’re wrong – the first bill is a guess, and it makes sense to guess the male, or just leave it centered on the table.
I’m a single woman and I eat out by myself frequently. I usually get offered the worst possible table (in the flow of traffic, near the kitchen, behind a post) and I usually ask for a better one. I drink wine (usually two or three glasses) and I don’t linger (what for?). I tip well (at least 20% for average service).
The trouble is that these stereotypes about women diners allow waitstaff to get away with treating me poorly. They don’t expect a good tip from me so they don’t make an effort. Then when their tip reflects the poor service I got, they assume it’s because I’m a woman and not because of their poor service.
I’ve taken to writing notes on the check: “I normally tip more but you gave me poor service.” I’ll add specific details, such as “You got my order wrong, you didn’t bring me flatware, you ignored me, etc.” If it’s really bad, I’ll go home and write an email to the restaurant.
If I’m treated well, I note it on the check and tip generously.
@whitecat: I like how this actually does sort of work because the receipt has to be cataloged and counted at the end of the night, and it’ll be the managers who do this, and who will see the messages..if they catch on that there are a number of complaints, there’s nothing the waiter can do about it other than avoid tables which have female patrons.
What annoys me is when my husband and I go out and the waitstaff blaitently ignores me, in favor of chatting him up and refilling his glass X number of times, meanwhile my water is dwindling and I’m getting annoyed that they’re taking up the time chatting with him when he should be chatting with me, as we are out to dinner together for a reason!
When this happens I tell him to tip less, regardless of the service he received, I received crappy service and we tip accordingly.
After reading through all the comments I can see the situation from both sides, but I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for those who treat parties differently based on perceived future tip.
I know waiting tables is difficult and thankless work, but every industry has its downsides. For my job I frequently have to run Sunday startup plant trials, which means that I lose half a Sunday traveling to the plant so I can be there from 11 at night to 9 the next morning. It stinks and it’s usually dirty, frustrating work. Some people work on packaging lines, where they sit for eight hours and pack fresh donuts into a box…over and over and over. Some people clean toilets for a living.
Every job has its crappy aspects, but it’s not an excuse to do your job worse. If I decided to do a crappy job on a project because I thought it was thankless and wouldn’t go anywhere, I’d get fired.
I am a (female) server. From my experience:
Groups of men are not necessarily going to tip you well. Many times with my groups of men, they are on a conference and cheap as hell. Some are nicer.
I will be honest- if I get sat 5 women, my heart sinks. Here is the order about 80% of the time with groups (usually 5 or more) women:
Waters, no appetizers, split dinners, and no dessert. Hogging the table for an hour and a half or more, and tipping minimum. Don’t know how many times I have gotten the check, cleared it, got my crappy tip and they were still there talking. That’s when I go around them and remove *everything* off the table that doesn’t need to be there. Every fork, napkin, etc. Get the hell out if you tip poorly.
It’s not that the men are better tippers. It’s that you can get men in and out (generally) and they do tend to drink more, and you can at least keep feeding them drinks because most of the time if they are staying and chatting, they’ll be drinking as well.
Mixed gendered tables tend to tip better. Also, one thing- if someone is loud about paying for someone else’s dinner, as in “oh no, let ME get that”, they aren’t good tippers, generally. Don’t know how many times I’ve had some guy congratulate himself and try to impress his friends and then screw me over.
Take care of your staff people and they’ll treat you well.
I don’t think it’s treating women as “second class citizens” if it’s a place that takes reservations. If a group of men were sucking up time on a table with a reservation, I’m guessing they would get the boot too.
Just for the record, I’m a woman, and the second I’m finished dining I want my check!
But older women are awful sometimes…my husband and I went to our local Applebees late at night, and we were seated right next to the only other occupied table in the house. I didn’t mind at first, because they were paying and I assumed they were getting ready to leave. But then they started up a conversation about ‘the healing powers of crystals and turquoise’ and our waitress decided to get in on the conversation…
She didn’t even bother to get our food, the cook brought it out and literally slammed the plates on the table (he looked pretty ticked off). Our food was cold and awful, and there was no condiments or silverware. We turned to ask our waitress for cutlery, and she literally held up her finger in the ‘just a second’ fashion and waited until she had finished talking to the ladies before she went to get some. Then she went right on back to talking to them…through our whole meal. Not once did she ask us how everything was.
I was so tempted to just get up and walk out in the middle of our meal, but my husband and I are weird about stuff like that and knew we’d feel guilty about not paying, even if the food and service were both low-quality…but we did get back at her! After dinner we were going to go to the bank because my husband had discovered that he had a huge jar of change in the closet. Since the waitress was STILL talking to the elderly ladies in the other booth and we were waiting for our check, we decided it would be fitting to pay the waitress entirely in 10¢, 5¢, and 1¢ coins. It took awhile, but boy was it worth it to see the look on the waitresses face as she counted it all out!
I am female and me and my girlfriends can eat and drink with the best of them. We always tip 20% or more…..but I have found discrimination on several occasions, which of course reflects in the servers tips
( myself a former server )The other day a friend and I were at a bar watching the game, we were the only women at the bar. The bartender (female) brought out complimentary pizzas to all the men at the bar and completely overlooked us! When I questioned her on it she brought us a pizza, but she pretty much threw it at us.