Not true. You need a bona-fide business relationship. It may be that they do this, but I'd be surprised if it ever held up.

The simplest solution I can think of is to make sure the secretary asks "what information" and doesn't take vague answers to be acceptable. Then the spam company would either have to purposefully lie or give up.

Any thoughts on this idea? Would it work?

Train the receptionist to get more information regarding fax number inqueries. "What is this fax regarding?" "What number will the faxes be coming from?" "What is your name, company and callback information?" "Is Tom expecting this fax?" "Will this information ever be used for marketing purposes?"

They probably aren't very keen on giving out information. Also, it is probably worth noting that some places have laws against pretexting now.

As someone who worked in an administrative position when I started at my current company, I can tell you that this behavior definitely happens. I don't know what the law says, but it would not surprise me if that "verbal approval" is all that's needed. These telemarketers can be outright mean, too, bullying receptionists into providing the information. They will say anything: claiming friendship or a family status with the person in question, and they are extremely evasive about providing any specific information about where they're calling from. Also, the numbers are usually impossible to block because they'll use those fake lines that make it appear that they are calling from a local number.

Another crazy scam that I dealt with at work before involved copy toner. Apparently, someone calls, says they deal with your toner supply, and need your copy machine serial number. If you give it to them, they can somehow draft an expensive invoice for supplies, and bill you for them. It's a bear to get rid of it.

The way to stop them cold is to simply ask they are an official rep for the copy machine's manufacturer. They'll hang up before the question is finished.

I got one of these calls today. But they don't even try anymore, once you say "Why do you want the fax number?" they hang up. Fax spammers are almost as annoying as the car warranty calls and the "can I have the model number on your printer?" calls.

@enriquez the water bottle: Ha, jinx on the toner scam. I HATE those guys because no matter how fast I yell "STOP CALLING I KNOW THIS IS A SCAM!" they always hang up before I'm done.

@BlondeGrlz: What's great about my current job is that we don't even have a copier, just an all-in-one printer. Someone calls for that, we just say we don't HAVE a copy machine, and again, click.

Nice ideas, but as someone who answers the phone at my place of work, extensive questions won't work. The receptionist/secretary doesn't have the time to do 20 questions on everyone wanting a fax number, and if they do it once to someone who's legit, and they complain...well, let's just say crap flows downhill.

Mind you, I work for a public entity, and we're even more limited. My name? Sure. My number? Of course. I cannot refuse lightly. Fax number? Right here...

@enriquez the water bottle: What a coincidence, I just got one of those yesterday. Here's how it went down:

Me: "Hello, can I help you?"
Toner-Scam Telemarketer (TST): "Hi, I'm from the copier supply company, I just need to verify your copier's serial number for your toner order."
Me: "Which copier would that be?"
TST (mumbles): "The Canon-Xerox copier."
Me: "Can you be more specific? We have four copiers here."
TST: "It's the big one. The number's right on the front next to the logo."
Me: "Where are you calling from?"
TST: "The copier company."
Me: "Which one would that be?"
TST (mumbles): "Vista."
Me: "And we get our toner through you."
TST: "That's right."
Me: "That's funny, because we order every single toner cartridge through Staples and I have to approve them before the order goes out. Nice try though."
TST: "Can I speak to [business owner's name]"
Me: "Hell no. He has better things to do than deal with pissant little copier-supply scam artists like you."

He taunted me for a bit, and then hung up. Granted, I knew in an instant that it was a scam, that out legitimate suppliers *never* have a need to call us to verify anything, but I do so enjoy effing with these weasels.

Please give me a name and call back information and I will have someone call to give you the fax number.

My wife's buisiness has some e-fax thing that just emails them all the faxes anyway. I'm sure this would make it easier to just ignore the spam.

On a side note, eFaxes are ripe for abuse, because you know you're not wasting paper. It's quite amusing to draw stick figure pirate scenes and fax them to her.

@Zimorodok: I'd sometimes like to mess with them, but usually I'd get too annoyed. I just tell them we're not interested while I'm hanging up the receiver.

@haoshufu: I've had similar conversations with these people before. I usually repeat, "Who do you work for?" and when they respond with "The place where you get your toner", I repeat, "Who do you work for?"

Eventually they get frustrated and hang up. On guy responded with a "Thbbbbbbbt!" before hanging up.

Good times.

I'm amazed someone hasn't commented on the fact that the above would not work in states that require two party consent to record telephone calls.

@valarmorghulis:

Since I have been a receptionist before I know that I never had enough time to ask so many questions before I give out the fax number..and what happens if it a friend of the CFO who is calling and gets mad at me?? But we also receive all faxes via email so if it is spam I just delete.

Regarding the printer cartridge scam - they call all the time..but we have a contract with a company who brings them in and never calls for information. As soon as they ask for the model number I would say no thank you and hang up.. Also - at back up phone people would know about this problem as well so they would not give any information!

So glad I have moved up the chain and do not have to work as a receptionist!

Aside from stopping spam, staff in general need to learn to protect data better.

These same techniques are used for arious things including much more malicious things then sending spam faxes.

For instance, If I call and gather info about heads of various departments, say their names, emails and phone nubers (very easy to get) I then call back and get the IT department. Then I call the IT department and say im the head of department x, my username is blahblah (99 percent of the time its the same as the email address or a variation of) and need a password reset. Id say about 20 percent of the time, I could get it changed on that alone. If not, id get a receptionists name and say they told me to talk to you blah in IT as he would be able to assist me. The person refrence makes it even more likely to get info.

Reset the password, I can now remotely connect and access data (its usually fairly simple to find remote access servers for companies)

Now i have much more than the ability to spam people.

@emilymarion333: I cant think of a single friend of mine who doesnt have my personal phone number.

Anyone claiming to be a "friend of blah blah blah" is dropping names and usually isnt a friend. If he was, you wouldnt be talking to him/her they would call the person directly for any info they needed. I worked as customer support and IT support on the phone for years, and every single time I heard "well blah blah blah is my friend and he wouldnt appreciate this" nothing ever came of it, ever, and im an asshole. My usual response was "well if you are good friends with him, please give him a call and have him give me the ok to do randomthingthatIshoudlntdo" and whenever one of the bosses friends needed help (this did happen) the boss would come by and ask me to call them, that way there was no confusion.

I've been an executive assistant for large Fortune 100 companies for many years. Not going to catch me on much, I'm afraid. I give out NO information to anyone, ever, unless I personally know them. I learned my lesson about 20 yrs. ago when when I was young & naive - I got caught in the "we're your copy paper supplier, I just need your authorization to send you your shipment" scam. I was quite embarrassed and it taught me a lesson I didn't soon forget. And by the way, what company is going to give any business to a serial faxer anyway? They're just wasting paper and pissing everyone off. I don't get why they would even bother.

I used to have to answer the phone when the front office staff was at lunch or take calls for management if the boss was out. These kind of scam calls really start to eat into productivity.

@Sarcastikate: But you can take a 6 day 7 night vacation in Cancun for only $399!!! And healthcare for your entire family for only $12/month! And a free cruise!! And also, you've been chosen as one of the very special selectees for this year's Who's Who directory!!!!!!!

They can't be legally recording the calls in every state, unless they notify the secretary that they're recording the calls. You know the deal, some states are cool as long as one party is aware of the recording, in other states both parties need to be informed. If they record them illegally, they certainly won't be able to use them in court.

Wait, I thought even in states where only one party needs to know of the recording, consumers still can't secretly record their conversations with CSRs for court purposes. What gives?

@m4ximusprim3: I wish I had a fax number, as we never have any stick figure pirate drawings where I work.

Eh the way to do with serial number scammers is say oh, yeah just a sec, put them on hold, and make a sandwich. If they are still on the line when you get done, pick up, ask a dumb question ("where is the serial number again") make another sandwich, repeat with ever more insane questions (Yeah the serial number is X-E-R-O-X, right?), all it takes up is an incoming line, and far less of your time than the scammer's.

And yes scammers will wait 15 minutes on hold multiple times.

A few years back I was the administrator of a fax server that mysteriously started getting spammed before it was completely rolled out or numbers even published. I can only assume that someone was cold-faxing and hit upon our block of 300 DID's. It was like playing fax spam whack-a-mole with these idiots, once I tracked them down and got our numbers removed, it would start up again in a couple of weeks. The sad part was that I would usually get a very frazzled secretary who had spent their day getting yelled at by people like myself. In one case she just went and unplugged the machine that was doing the broadcast.

I don't miss that part of the job...

As a legal secretary, I deal with these types all the time. Just yesterday, I was hung up on by some yahoo who wanted my printer model number and apparently didn't take kindly to my curiosity as to who exactly he was. But the worst is the stock brokers and recruiters who call for my lawyers all day, every day. I'm now so good at pinpointing them that they barely get two syllables out before I'm saying "no thanks, and take us off your list." I actually had one of them blurt "Don't you know who I am?!" Maybe that would have made me think twice, but for the fact that he had asked for my boss by a name NO ONE who knows him would ever call him.

There's a related scam involving directories. You'll get someone who calls in and says "I'm calling to update our Certified Business Directory. Can I ask you to verify contact information?" The secretary/staff member says "Yes" and then proceeds to provide names/phone number/email information. 8 weeks later we get an invoice for Certified Business Directory (or what ever the name is that week). As the librarian who gets all these invoices, I call up the company to verify what this is, and they play me back a recording of the staff member saying "yes" to their question of purchasing a volume of said directory. Then comes the fun part of returning the book certified mail with a letter saying "we did not order this, please cancel, please never contact us again."

If someone calls you and wants you to fill out directory information over the phone, ask them to mail you a hard copy of the form. All legitimate directories will do this. All scams will say "That's not possible."

see this for more info. [www.ftc.gov]

Re: 1 and 2 party recording

There are generally 3 possible requirements for recording, to be able to use that recording in a court of law.

1. One party consent: ONE party to the conversation must be aware that it is recording. Federal and some states.

2. 50% or more consent: Half or more of the parties must be aware that it is recording. So if 3 people are on the line, 2 must know it is recording. If 2 are on the line, one must know. Some states.

2. 100% consent: All parties must be aware that it is recording. Some states.

Note that this is for private recording. If you have a warrant, you can record with 0 party consent under the conditions of the warrant.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

A company cannot refuse to give out a fax number -- it would restrict useful business information to be received. However, having the receptionist ask before giving the fax number, "Is this for an unsolicited offer, or spam?", would remove the spammer's legal protection as noted from any recording.

A fax spammer doesn't need to cover their asses because they pretty much have perfect anonymity. Even the smallest call center with a T1 connection can easily fake the caller ID data or render it "out of area". I wouldn't be surprised if fax spam is being sent internationally, either. US law has no jurisdiction in Brazil.

I'm a receptionist and I've gotten the toner call before. And I don't know about the fax thing since we get fax spam ALL the time and it was coming before I worked there. Most of them have numbers at the bottom to refax saying you want off their list but they keep coming.

Actually I use that as my notebook for scratch paper, I just binder clip a the faxes or other paper not needed together and work of that, then recycle it. If I get it to go away it would be great.

There was one that really amused me, it was for some firm that will do cold calls to "help your business leads" (we don't sell anything) and it was going on about how they could help you get around those "uncoopeartive secretaries" I was thinking "yeah like the ones that deal with the faxes". A couple weeks later we got it again but without the line about uncooperative secretaries. Guess someone figured out who was dealing with the faxes.

Easy solution - hire a receptionist intelligent enough to see through this crap, and then treat her with respect and pay her enough to make her stick around.

@henrygates: It wouldn't be for "court purposes". It would be for "customer service quality assurance" or "training purposes"... And if it just happens to be useful in court, that's a nice bonus!

I let them go on with their sales leads.
AT&T I tell them everytime how wonderful their offer sounds, except, after being burned by SBC which stands for Same Bullshit Company, and seeing since the only thing changed was the name, not management, and not the board of directors, until the service is completely free for 24 months on our 20 lines of service. We will not under any circumstances ever consider going to AT&T until that offer is placed on the table.

Toner ones. I reply that it is my job to order the supplies, give me your information, and should your quote come out much lower than the company we currently use. We'll consider switching.

Hot business opportunities for the owner come all the time. I've finally started telling them that the owner is a raging alcoholic who's investment plan for the future of this company involves powerball.

If they don't fall into the above mentioned catagory of fun I've already come up with. I simply do my love dr. impression. Act interested, then ask them out. Great when I have other men on the phone! They freak and hang up. Normally the call ends with. "If you're not going to sleep with me, then never call me again at work, as I am the only receptionist, I have 14 years with the company and ain't going anywhere because I can abuse you guys right back"

I did a lot of receptionist work in high school and college, and I was totally the gatekeeper extraordinaire. No sleazy telemarketer could get an ounce of information out of me.
You have to refuse to give them any info, and you should badger them for THEIR info, which they are always reticent to give. Many business-focused telemarketers get really flustered (some downright angry) when you demand their name, company, and phone number.

When I was an admin assistant, I once actually had a young woman (just my age or even younger) show up at the office. She explained that she was from X company and we hadn't ordered paper from them in a while, so she wanted to see how we were doing.

I'd only been there about a month, so I explained that we were actually ordering our paper from someone else right now, but we could take information from her if her prices were better. Anyway, my boss got curious and came out of her office (it was a VERY slow office, 2 visitors a day or less, we administrated properties). After reiterating what I'd said, she showed the girl out and asked her not to visit any other offices in the building (which we owned). Girl seemed a little confused.

Later she told me that in the 5 years she'd been there, they'd never bought paper from that company. I thought it was an interesting sales technique---trying to convince the secretary that you had a previous business relationship.

Much less nefarious than the toner scam, though. Never ran into that one. Or gave out the fax #, though we got plenty of fax spam.

@Zimorodok: Oooh, ooh! Next time, can you tell them you need to go over to the machine to get the number and then put them on hold? Then see how long they stay on the line until they hang up! You could have some kind of contest to see who hangs on the longest.

I love these calls! Seriously! And we get them at any number in the office, not just the front desk.

Varmint: "Do you have the serial number of your copier?"
Novaload: "No, but I have Prince Albert in a can! Ha ha! Ha!"

Varmint: "Hi, is Larry around?" (Larry=senior scientist, MD etc.)
Novaload: "I'll check. Who is this?"

Varmint: "Can I speak to the person who handles your long distance?"
Novaload: "No." (click)
or
"Sure." Musical hold.

Varmint: "May I speak with your office manager?"
Novaload: "Are you a telemarketer? Wow, I bet that "do not call" stuff really hurt your job prospects. Is this your only job? Does it pay well?"

For the recorded ones, which really used to annoy me, I now listen to the spiel and press the correct button and then politely ask to be removed from the call list. So far this has worked much better than screaming "Die in a fire!!!" to a machine.

My name is Employee #1414 and I am tasked with screening telephone calls because the "fill-in-the-blank" is a very important and busy person and you are not. Let me complete my form and determine if you are worthy of talking to "fill-in-the-blank".

I'll second the fact that to get rid of the con artists on the phone quickly just ask them for detailed information. That gets rid of about 75% of them. The others will stop hassling you when you require them to send you paperwork.

(A side note: that paper scam/toner scam goes back a long way. Had a mailroom manager once tell me about dealing with the scam back in the early 60's. Back then it was paper and typewriter ribbons. They called to get the invoicing to look right.)

One time our receptionist didn't catch on and we were sent a toner cartridge we didn't want.

Looking at the return address on the shipping container, we didn't recognize the supplier so we told the UPS driver to mark it "delivery refused" and take it back. That way, the scam company still gets stuck with the shipping charge!!

I can't believe any good sized company would really spend a lot of time worrying about this. Okay, we gave our fax number to a spammer. The number is on all our directories and business cards and it's not worth someone's time and effort to chase down a scammer. Use the electronic fax option and make most of them go away.

@Zimorodok: This sounds similar to my conversation with those "you're vehicle warranty is about to expire"

Me: Which car are you talking about?
Them: Any car you own between 1991 and 2005
Me: That doesn't help, I have three. Which car are you talking about?
Them: Well if you can give me your name, phone number, and VIN numbers I'll transfer you to a warranty specialist.
Me: You called me, you should know my name and phone number.
Them: Your dealership forwarded your information to us about the car, but not your other information.
Me: Then you should be able to tell me which car you are referring to.
Them: Do you want to extend your warranty or not?
Me: AARRGGHH

Of course they call me 5 more times after that.

@xtc46: Heh. I used to work in my university's admissions office, and parents were always calling to try to get kids' status before announcement. Every once in a while we'd get one asking for the head of admissions, claiming to be a friend of hers. Nice try, we'd say, but if you were really a friend, you'd know that Gale is a man. Wait for the letter like everyone else.

Pretexting is all around...

Wow! I *litterally* just got that call this week! (I'm not the secratary though). They asked for the VP and I laughed at them. They asked for the "I.T. manager" next. Knowing it was someone fishing for some contact info I said "sure, hold on" and put them on hold and left them there. I think they eventually hung up.

California, FYI, is a two-party recording state. You can google your state, probably under something like "privacy" and "recording."

@Zimorodok:

Our office manager was duped into "ordering" toner for the copy machine believing that the caller was from the outside copy machine vendor we leased machines from. Two weeks later toner arrived with an invoice attached for somewhere around $400. We paid it.

Two weeks later another package arrived with two toner cartridges, $800. Alright, fine, eventually we'll use the toner. We didn't realize the toner actually retails online for $75.

But then we got another package of two toner rolls the following week. That's when I went on google and realized this was just a scam whereby they sent packages of toner, and hoped no one noticed you were grossly overpaying and had an excess number of toner cartridges sitting around. We just stopped paying the invoices.

Eventually, after we had about a dozen toner rolls, someone from their billing department called trying to collect. I explained to them we never ordered toner, and that I knew they were a scam, and we were never paying them anymore money. The billing department was insistent that we pay. I told them they could have the toner back, and they offered to send a UPS label to have it picked up, which never came. The billing department kept calling until I suggested that I would call the State's Attorney General. We haven't gotten a call about payment or a package of toner since.

I get calls like these and those from head hunters every couple of weeks. What I do is I simply tell them to call the operator and hang-up.