Comcast: "The Patriot Act" Mandates We Need Your SSN
Ryan wanted to order new Comcast service but balked at their request for a Social Security number. When he asked why they needed it, the Comcast chat rep said "The Patriot Act" required it. That doesn't sound right to us, or to Ryan. His story and full screenshot of the chat, inside...
UPDATE 1:How To Get Utilities And Phone Service Without Giving Up Your SSN
UPDATE 2: Comcast Admits Error In Requiring SSN Under "Patriot Act"
Ryan writes:
After completing the order procedure on their website I was directed to a live chat window. After waiting about twenty minuets a Analyst joined the chat. She immediately requested I provide my Social security number in order to open a new account. I refused to provide my SSN and asked for details as to why it was required. Her answer is that the Patriot Act requires them to get my Social Security number.As you can see in the transcript I attached, she referred me to their legal department. I actually asked for the phone number five to ten seconds before she closed the chat. But when I viewed the chat transcript it says the chat was closed before I asked. That is a neat trick.
Can what she told me actually be true? ...I don't believe [the Patriot Act] requires me to provide my SSN just to get Internet service.
I think the Comcast rep somehow thinks that Comcast falls under the "Know Your Customer" clause of the Patriot Act. As far as I understand it, that only applies to financial companies or financial intermediaries, neither of which I believe Comcast qualifies as.
RELATED: Know Your Customer - Patriot Act [Wikipedia]
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Comments:
I will defer to the Social Security Administration on this one. This is taken directly from their website:
[ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov]
When am I legally required to provide my Social Security number?
Question
Must I provide a Social Security number (SSN) to any business or government agency that asks?
Answer
The Social Security number was originally devised to keep an accurate record of each individual's earnings, and to subsequently monitor benefits paid under the Social Security program. However, use of the number as a general identifier has grown to the point where it is the most commonly used and convenient identifier for all types of record-keeping systems in the United States.
Specific laws require a person to provide his/her number for certain purposes. While we cannot give you a comprehensive list of all situations where a number might be required or requested, a Social Security number is required/requested by:
* Internal Revenue Service for tax returns and federal loans;
* Employers for wage and tax reporting purposes;
* States for the school lunch program;
* Banks for monetary transactions;
* Veterans Administration as a hospital admission number;
* Department of Labor for workers' compensation;
* Department of Education for Student Loans;
* States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;
* States for child support enforcement;
* States for commercial drivers' licenses;
* States for Food Stamps;
* States for Medicaid;
* States for Unemployment Compensation;
* States for Temporary Assistance to Needy Families; or
* U.S. Treasury for U.S. Savings Bonds
The Privacy Act regulates the use of Social Security numbers by government agencies. When a federal, state, or local government agency asks an individual to disclose his or her Social Security number, the Privacy Act requires the agency to inform the person of the following: the statutory or other authority for requesting the information; whether disclosure is mandatory or voluntary; what uses will be made of the information; and the consequences, if any, of failure to provide the information.
If a business or other enterprise asks you for your number, you can refuse to give it. However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested. For example, utility companies and other services ask for a Social Security number, but do not need it; they can do a credit check or identify the person in their records by alternative means.
Giving your number is voluntary, even when you are asked for the number directly. If requested, you should ask why your number is needed, how your number will be used, what law requires you to give your number and what the consequences are if you refuse. The answers to these questions can help you decide if you want to give your Social Security number. The decision is yours.
For more detailed information, we recommend the publication Your Social Security Number And Card .
yeah, i don't think the SSN is required for compliance w/ patriot, HOWEVER, it is a necessary component for pulling your credit report (which is generally what most of these companies do before implementing service).
Verizon dsl account, created in 2005. No ssn required.
Some states have laws which prohibit businesses from requiring a SSN. I know that NM is one of them. I would suggest checking your state law.
After 9/11, we need to make sure Terrorists can't get to watch fine cable programming such as "Corey In The House" and "Drawn Together". That'd be downright un-American.
That's one shady rep. I would not be doing business with Comcast trying to pull this crap off.
Then again, I'd never do business with Comcast anyway. I'd rather castrate myself than be stuck doing business with them.
@johnnya2:
Giving your number is voluntary, even when you are asked for the number directly.
i always found this line to pretty much be bulldookey. while applying to state or federal government positions, you always get this line: you are not required to provide your social security number to complete an application, however we cannot process the application without your social security number.
hooray doublespeak!
Comcast asked me when all I wanted to do was cancel service at one address and add it to a new address. They claimed it was because I was changing my service level at the same time so it was as if I was signing up for a new contract. Which to me was bull because I was STILL AN ACTIVE CUSTOMER!
I'm an AT&T customer (hi there, NSA, how're ya doin?) and they've never asked for my SSN. Then again, I've been a customer for years, so it's possible they asked for it a long time ago and I forgot.
Still, that "Patriot Act" business is bullshit. I'd sooner believe they need it to run a credit check. I'm sure as shit not providing it in a (probably unencrypted) customer service chat room, either.
That conversation looks shady to me. I wouldn't have given my SSN either. They don't need it.
I remember going over the Patriot Act briefly when I worked as a personal banker, because the company was trying to stress that we needed all info properly documented for new accounts. Once had a guy with a totally fake number (all zeros or something) try to open a new account, and had a 10 minute debate with him over the fact that I couldn't open a new account if he didn't give me a real number. He ended up giving me one, but he could have just made it up. Patriot Act is a joke in my opinion.
@Juliekins: And I just spotted the little padlock, so it's probably encrypted unless there are other circumstances (fake/expired cert, etc). Still, I wouldn't give my SSN over chat.
@Applekid: Haha! Yeah, that sort of information can be dangerous in the hands of someone trying to destroy our wonderful heritage of mad-lib style TV writing and constant commercials.
@Juliekins: I'm also an AT&T customer (Hey, NSA, up yours) and, while I was not required to give my SSN at signup, 3 months later they locked my account down for fraud until I gave them information confirming that I was myself. That information HAD TO include, (I had no choice in the matter), my SSN.
Up yours AT&T, you and the NSA and go and...
I'm sure you can figure this one out between the two of you, hell, I'd bet you even had pratice.
They will try and get your SSN but you are not required to give it. The real reason for this is to check to see if you have any previous accounts that owe them money. If you don't feel like giving your SSN, which you shouldn't- a phone number or some other identifier can be used for the field to create a new account. They should know this and if not their supervisor should. They also can't refuse to give you service without it either unless they have reason to believe you owe them money.
~G
@acknight: Seriously. These poor folks are getting paid about $10/hr (at least in our area), who's to say what they'll do with your SSN once they've got it? Even if their chat client is secure or whatever...
A few months ago I was asked to provide an SSN for new Comcast service, but was told up front it was for a credit check. This was via telephone; I was ordering two lines of service (Cable TV and Internet).
I had a Comcast collections account on my credit report from years ago and a shitty roommate. I assume it's on my credit report because they had my social security number but I don't remember giving it to them.
I agree that their explanation for requiring an SSN is bull. However, they can require one for credit check purposes and to ensure you don't have previous accounts that are still delinquient. You are totally within your rights to refuse to provide your SSN, but understand that Comcast/ATT/Sprint/(insert any other company that does business on a credit basis) can (generally) refuse to do business with you. They are well within their rights to insist on a credit check before staring service and (possibly) handing you a $500 HD-DVR or $100 cable modem. I can understand not wanting to give your SSN over a chat, but to simply refuse to provide it altogether is pretty unreasonable, unless of course you have bad credit or do owe them money. Welcome to 2008 folks, companies aren't that trusting anymore.
@mac-phisto: What it comes down to is that giving your number is voluntary, but if you choose not to provide the number they can choose not to do business with you.
I recall reading in a previous thread that a credit report could be pulled with just address and full name. I don't recall a source for this though. Can anyone verify this?
THAT explains why I saw the local Comcast installer taking a cable modem, DVR, and waterboard into my neighbor's house the other day.
I wonder if they would let you give your driver's license number? I changed mine from my SSN to something innocuous, and use that instead.
yeah! i actually just opened an account with comcast last week, and a similar live chat CSR asked me repeatedly for my social security number. i gave her my last four, and she promptly told me that it would be impossible to setup an account without my whole ssn... and didn't give me any answers when i asked her why they needed it. i gave it to her, but was suspicious afterwards. but after reading this i guess it wasn't just me.
I'd say EECB this one, some jerk of a rep needs to be cooked off, sent to the moon where he/she/it can be king of the world.
Or so they think...
The reason they want it isn't even the credit check - they want it so that if you take off on your bill, they can track you down much easier and put it on your credit report.
Of course what's to stop you from going "My Social Security number? Um. . . sure. It's 867-53-09" Dont want to give it up? Make something up! Easy peasy!
@Guges: "They also can't refuse to give you service without it either unless they have reason to believe you owe them money."
I believe they can refuse to give you service if they can't conduct their search on you. There's nothing that says they have to give you service. The only reason they would HAVE to give you service is if the basis of the refusal is because they're discriminating against you in violation of Federal or State law (race, religion, etc.)
Yeah that is a load of crap. I signed up for Comcast recently and I was able to give them enough information for a credit check with just my driver's license.
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:08:37 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
Your order requires credit verification. May I have your Social Security Number please?
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:09:07 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
This is done for your protection to prevent service from being placed in your name without your authorization. I can assure you that our chat is secure and that your information will not be retained.
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:10:10 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
Did you receive my last message?
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:10:48 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I would think you could obtain my credit information with my Full Name.
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:31 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I build these sort of applications for a living and I can assure you that you can not assure me that my information is safe. Between you and me the connection is wide up to anyone who cares to listen.
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:31 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
May I use your Driver's License Number as a means of identification instead?
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:54 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
yes you may
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:49 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I do understand your concern, Stephen.
I'm glad I saved the whole conversation, it was quite a funny experience. Took a whole hour to get her to schedule an installation.
"It's required for the PATRIOT Act."
>blind compliance<
"Alright, what I have to do now is run a short credit check with our credit bureau..."
As other commenters have point out, it's to run a credit check on you and run you to ground if you try to skip on a bill. Quite fascinated by Comcast running their sign-ups through web chats now. Is it somehow cheaper than a call center?
That's a load of crap, I was able to sign up for Comcast using my driver's license,
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:08:37 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
Your order requires credit verification. May I have your Social Security Number please?
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:09:07 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
This is done for your protection to prevent service from being placed in your name without your authorization. I can assure you that our chat is secure and that your information will not be retained.
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:10:10 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
Did you receive my last message?
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:10:48 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I would think you could obtain my credit information with my Full Name.
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:31 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I build these sort of applications for a living and I can assure you that you can not assure me that my information is safe. Between you and me the connection is wide up to anyone who cares to listen.
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:31 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
May I use your Driver's License Number as a means of identification instead?
Stephen_(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:54 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
yes you may
Zhenaida.24715(Tue Jun 10 2008 15:11:49 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time))>
I do understand your concern, Stephen.
Check your state law, but escalate this at Comcast for the "Patriot Act" lie.
Uh, what if you don't have a SSN? If you're here on a student visa you're not allowed to get cable?
@esd2020: You're already getting an education, what more do you want? :) Besides, you should be studying, not watching TV. It'll rot your brain.
@Applekid: Hell, we'll be damned if we allow the terrorists to *shudder* promote competition against Comcast and TW cable companies! We'll need your first born along with your SSN too.
My gripe with companies is that they wouldn't need your SSN and wouldn't need the expense of running a credit check if they simply offered their services on a pre-pay basis. No payment received? Just shut off the service. No need to report bad credit to the "agencies".
Sure, you could argue that a refusal to pay is the only leverage a consumer has when Comcast or Verizon or some other company doesn't provide the contracted service. But these companies all demand payment and report you to the agencies even when they're the ones at fault for not providing you with the contracted services! Their ability to extort payments by the implied threat to your credit score is a big risk.
I'm so glad to receive cable internet from my town instead of from one of the big ISPs. No, it's not pre-paid, but neither have I ever heard a complaint about their service or their management of customer information.
In order to comply with the FISA revisions made in the Patriot act, Comcast needs to know if you are a foreign national or not. Providing an SSN that can be verified to prove you are not a foreign national -*restricts*- the kinds of surveillance that Comcast can conduct. If you do not provide an SSN, or the SSN you provide can not be verified, Comcast can conduct -*more*- surveillance under the FISA Act, as modified by the Patriot Act, and it's subsequent revisions.
That's why there is a mention of the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act doesn't require Comcast to request your SSN, or verify it, but if Comcast can prove you are a US citizen, the government has a higher burden of proof to conduct surveillance. Under FISA, if you are a foreign national, the bar is very low. Even before the Patriot Act.
The Patriot Act is a utter lie. However, I will go on to say this. Giving out your social isn't as scary as it used to be. At first I was very apprehensive to it, then I eventually saw the usefulness of it. My local cable provider and local phone provider gave me good reporting marks for my credit history when I needed a car loan. I check it every few months like any good consumer should that way no one has it and pulled something out in my name, but so far I'm good.
But yeah, that crap about the patriot act is a lie. Most places make you put down a deposit of some sort or ask that you come in to verify your ID.
@GriffonJames: That would be a great idea if only people would actually pay their bills on time. Otherwise, you'd have a lot of people calling in asking why their account was shut off. You'd be surprised how many people pay late
Considering the only use of the Patriot Act so far was to catch Spitzer whoring, I expect the govt. now wants to see what kind of porn certain stubborn politicians are viewing. Based on the telecom immunity bill, the govt is now monitoring all communications and needs to tie every IP address to a SSN.
@linoth: I would assume that it's cheaper to use web chats since the CSRs can have multiple chats going at once.
@esd2020: If you read the story, the CSR said you could go to a local service center and sign up in person with a valid picture ID.
Well then I guess it's time to found (or find) a religion with merciful and benevolent God who wants us to enjoy the autonomy granted by privacy.
This comment was inspired by L. Ron Hubbard!
The cable company for our household is SuddenLink, the bill is in my roommates name and since I'm the most technical one when it comes to computers, I'm the one that calls them when we have service issues. I got the runaround before with them several times for the same issue: they refused assistance when I couldn't provide them with my roommates SSN. So I asked him for his SSN and now I just pretend to be him when I call, it's not like they know any better and I have his consent to do so.
It still makes me feel weird having to do this though, just to get service from a company we are paying for. That fact that I am doing this defeats and semblance of security they claim the SSN requirement is for.
42 USC 408 (a) (8) states:
(a) In general
Whoever-
(8) discloses, uses, or compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States;
shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
I say the OP hold Comcast accountable for trying to compel the disclosure of a Social Security Number under the color of law and in violation of the Privacy Act.
@Lucky225:
Also I don't know where you are Ryan, but in California it is also against the law to make the SSN mandatory.
So you could contact the PUC
@El_Fez:
Providing a false SSN as your own is a federal crime, just so you know. However TimeWarner made one up when I refused so I guess it's up to them to prove who put it on the account
We fought with Verizon Wireless and ended up not giving them our numbers for a family plan, but broke down w/ AT&T to sign up for an iPhone (because of the online registration).
It's a lot easier to get around the SSN requirement on the phone or in person than via a web form or chat which probably has validation checks on the fields to ensure they're filled in properly.
And the other concern is the web chat server itself. The SSN is not merely "stored" in the single server that Comcast "owns" (as if that somehow makes it secure).
It's also going to be in the chat server, in the cache of the database client that the CSR uses to examine or create your account, and in any number of other places, all of which have questionable security.
That is, if I didn't install it and secure it myself, I question it.
I don't think an public webchat (even if over https) with an *analyst* is exactly a smart place to give that out, anyways.