A 65-year-old urologist, born in India but living in the United States for 38 years now, was flying from his home in Missouri to a medical convention in Las Vegas on June 26th, 2008. Did you notice that “born in India” detail? Apparently his attempts to go to the bathroom angered and frightened a flight attendant, who wouldn’t tell Dr. Sivaprasad Madduri why he couldn’t use the lavatory (the pilot was using it) and who wouldn’t listen to Dr. Madduri’s explanation that he was taking a medicine that acts as a diuretic. When the plane landed he was arrested, spent the night in jail, and was told the next day to plead guilty and pay $2500 if he wanted a quick resolution.
Southwest has since told Dr. Madduri, “We don’t want this experience to affect your feelings about flying with us in the future,” and they’ve offered him a $100 voucher. It turns out the “apology” was meant for the other passengers, and was in fact about Dr. Madduri.
Ironically, even before he filed his complaint with the Southwest Airlines officials, he got a letter from Frederick Taylor Jr, senior manager at the airline’s customer service communications, offering a $100 voucher for a future flight.
“Sometimes, an explanation for the reason why things happen is not always possible, and the bizarre behaviour of the individual during your June 26 flight to Las Vegas supports this point,” Taylor said in a letter accompanying the voucher. “While I am unable to explain the circumstances surrounding the disruption, I think it is important to offer my heartfelt apologies for any concerns you may have had as a result of this event”.
“Naturally, we don’t want this experience to affect your feelings about flying with us in the future, or for it to be your last recollection of traveling with our company. In fact we would consider it a privilege if you gave us another opportunity to provide you with better memories.”
Here’s Dr. Madduri’s story in his own words:
[I am] a physician from India who immigrated to the United States 38 years ago and [has] been in private practice in South East Missouri for more than a quarter century.
On June 26, 2008, I traveled from St Louis to Las Vegas to attend AAPI annual convention by Southwest flight 1226. Two hours into the flight, I tried to go to the bathroom ( I take a blood pressure medicine with diuretic that makes one ‘go’ more often). As I was sitting in row six, I walked to the front lavatory. The flight attendant, named Lora Lee Minton, abruptly stopped me and essentially shouted at me, “Go back! This bath room is occupied, and you cannot stand here.”
Shocked and dumbfounded at this unfriendly behavior, I went back and sat in my seat. Two minutes later, I saw the lavatory door opening and I got up and walked towards the bath room again. The same flight attendant (Lora Lee Minton) screamed at me, “I told you not to go to that bathroom,” and started pushing me into my seat. I was totally confused at this erratic behavior, and told her that I had been taking medicine and I had to go to the toilet. I even tried to walk past Ms.Minton as I was very uncomfortable.
“I told you not to go,” she pushed me into my seat! I was lost. I flew many times but had never experienced a rude and unfriendly behavior like this. Confused and not knowing what to do, I went back and sat in my seat. I saw the pilot came out of the lavatory, walked into the cockpit and closed the door behind him. Later I could use the bathroom.
The sequence of events that followed were more frightening and beyond the scope of any one’s imagination. As the plane landed in Las Vegas , I was escorted by two police officers and was handed over to the FBI. The FBI interrogated me at length and for the first time, I was told that the flight attendant, Ms.Lora Lee Minton, reported that I was causing ‘disturbance’ during the flight. I was also told that when the pilot is out of the cockpit, no one is supposed get up from their seat, till the pilot goes back to his seat. This apparently is a federal law being enforced since 9/11 and no one ever told me, nor was it announced during the flight.
That night I was taken through federal centers for further investigation. I was hand-cuffed, finger printed and was ‘processed’ as a common criminal. I was told repeatedly that my background was checked and I had no criminal record. Even after checking my back ground and even after confirming it by calling my family members (Our two children that live in St Louis and Houston, Texas ) and my professional partner (urologist from Poplar Bluff, Missouri ), I still had to go through the harassment. I was dragged through Federal court buildings that night with hand and ankle cuffs, left in cells for hours before I was interrogated and was threatened repeatedly with abusive language: ‘Shut up,’ ‘I am going to kick your ass,’ to name a few. Finally I was taken to a federal detention center in Las Vegas and was ushered into a large jail cell! I spent the night in jail with 43 prisoners – most of them drug dealers and picked up at street fights!
The next day I went through processing in a federal court building and presented in front of a Federal Judge. The public defender told me that my ‘case’ was decided and I would be released if I pleaded guilty and paid a fine of $2,500. He also told me that I could refuse to plead guilty, contest the judgment and even could win, but could be taking a long time, cost more and might result in multiple trips to Las Vegas.
Exhausted, depressed and completely deflated, I agreed to what ever the public defender suggested and got out after 24 hours of ‘living hell’.
I endured the most horrifying and traumatic 24-hours of my life for a crime I sincerely believe I did not commit. A simple statement by the flight attendant (Lora Lee Minton) in normal tone of voice that I was not supposed to wait in front of the toilet when it was occupied by the pilot, would have saved the ghastly ordeal.
I was told repeatedly by the prison guards, some of the FBI officials (not all of them were rude), the prison inmates who heard my story that the reason I was targeted was because of my skin color (brown) and ethnic background (South Asian, Indian).
When I returned home, I did not feel like lying flat and take the abuse, more so the incident involved not only me but an entire race and ethnic group. I sent my story to local, state and national news papers including all the major Indian news publications. The response was overwhelming: the news papers were very receptive; I received numerous e-mails, letters, phone-calls, sympathy and supportive cards; every one wanted me to ‘fight-it-out’ and ‘not to keep quite and do nothing.’
I did send my story to ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) of Missouri and Nevada , yet I haven’t heard from them yet, though I was told that my experience had merit. I contacted attorneys locally as well as in St Louis and was told that they were looking for proper attorneys that specialize in civil liberties cases; I was told by some that I should not have pleaded guilty and should find eye-witnesses that would testify in my favor.
During 30 years of my stay in America , I never felt so threatened nor my rights so violated as I did that fateful night. ‘You are not guilty until proven otherwise’, the anthem we are made to believe all the time was turned out to be not true; I was guilty until prove my self innocent. I was treated like a guilty person and was never given a chance even to tell my side of the story. Even after the incidence, I am finding it difficult to prove my innocence. I want Southwest Air Lines to realize their mistake and drop charges against me. I did contact Southwest airlines and was informed that they were standing by their stewardess and the issue had no racial profile or bias.
(Thanks to Ashish!)
(Photo: Cubbie_n_Vegas)
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He can probably get out of the guilty plea because of the way he was threatened and abused.
@BeeBoo: Is that your legal opinion? Police are given a wide degree of lattitude in what they can say and do to someone in custody (withint the bounds of the law). Pleading guilty is something an innocent person should NEVER do!
@BeeBoo: @keith4298: Mistake or not, a confession under duress is not valid.
@aikoto: Pleading guilty b/c you want to go home is not considered the legal definition of “duress”.
@BeeBoo: Larry Craig couldn’t get out of his guilty plea. I think this guy will have some trouble with it, too!
I hope he gets a good lawyer that can expunge the guilty plea and get him a good settlement from SWA.
@Fist-o: The problem is that they give the benefit of the doubt to the flight attendant as if he or she is a police officer. And that the flight attendant is forced to do nothing extra to get someone in trouble. They need to force a flight attendant to give a sworn testimony before charges can be filed. That way when it’s proven to be a lie, the attendant actually faces a punishment.
@Corporate_guy: They need to force a flight attendant to give a sworn testimony before charges can be filed. That way when it’s proven to be a lie, the attendant actually faces a punishment.
Hear hear!!
Lora Lee is a bitch…or c*&t if you prefer as I do.
@Mfalconieri: Lora Lee is a bitch…or c*&t if you prefer as I do.
John McCain prefers also it when referring to his wife.
I find it amazing in this day and age that people can’t tell the difference between South Asian and Arab people just by looking at them, or at least by talking; I can tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani accents, and I’m certainly no expert. If someone is going to start racial profiling, they should at least note differences other than brown skin.
And don’t the stewardesses have flight manifests of the passengers on board? If the bimbo had read the man’s name on paper she would know right away that he’s of Indian descent and a US citizen…unless, of course, she’s a typically uneducated moron who doesn’t know anything outside her own borders, which should be shameful considering her job.
@P_Smith: OK, so first of all, you sound like you’re suggesting that the behavior would have been vaguely appropriate if the victim were Arabic instead of South Indian? Hello, bigoted much?
I don’t care whether the passenger just came over from Iraq or Iran yesterday, he deserved to be treated with respect. The first response should have been “Please stay in your seat for just a few minutes as a security precaution” or some other polite non-explanation (not revealing that the pilot is out of the cockpit), spoken in a polite tone.
Second of all, I would suggest not throwing around accusations of being an uneducated moron (you know, glass houses and all) if you think that the only terrorist threats are people from the Middle East. Most Muslims — including a similar proportion of extremists — live outside of the Middle East. Indonesia (south east Asia) has the largest Muslim population in any country. Remember the Bali bombings?
While we’re at it, if it’s ok to profile people based on prior terrorist attacks, shouldn’t I be terrified and react irrationally toward white American ex-military guys? Remember Tim McVey?
Frankly, I’m more terrified of Christian extremists than of Muslim extremists… After all, nutty Christian extremists have committed far more terrorist attacks on US soil than Muslims have (remember that spate of abortion clinic bombings, what, 10 years ago or so?).
@P_Smith: You’re kidding me right? People can’t tell the difference between multi-racial, Mexican, Indian, Arab, El Salvadorian, Pakistani, Hawaiian, and Italian.
@Mfalconieri: No. No, I do not prefer the ‘c’ word. It’s rude, vulgar, and reduces women to our genitals. There are millions of other words in this language to express your displeasure with another person, why do people insist on using this one?
If you’re stuck, here’s a starting point:
[www.pangloss.com]
Under Duress, as well a a Lawsuit towards the Airline and Attendant, as well as a Hate Crime would suffice to say the least.
in before “Privatize the profits, socialize the losses”?
what a horrible story.
It often seems that many of these airline fiascos involve some flight attendant that acts poorly. This would appear to be the case here as well.
Was he read his rights? Including the right to an attorney? He should have had an attorney before pleading guilty to anything. And the public defender did not seem to be working in his best interests, this alone could overturn the conviction.
@chiieddy: Doesn’t the patriot act allow law enforcement to hold anyone as long as they want to without making any formal charges or reading them rights?
24 hours, I think.
@chiieddy: He did have an attorney, a public “defender” who told him the easiest thing to do was to plead guilty.
Along with Lora Lee Minton, That PD needs a swift kick in the behind. After that, the same justice can be applied to the prosecutor.
It sounds to me like he did brake the law. I see no racially motivating connection at all.
When a member of the airplane’s crew tells you to do something you have to do it. End of story. In his description he states that he disregarded the crew’s instructions and tried to push past them. Clearly he broke the law.
@the Goat:
You don’t see race playing a role here? Really?
@the Goat: I know, they should have totally shot him, execution-style, on the tarmac. That would have been what criminals like him deserve.
@the Goat: The Goat or “The Sheep” because people like you seem to be all too content to blindly follow the “rules,” regardless of their merit.
@the Goat:
Yes, that’s right. Let’s all be good little sheep and do as we’re told. Free thought, questioning those in charge, and social disobedience are all very bad things.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to go sit in the corner quietly while my rights are stripped from me and our government spends our great grandchildren into debt.
@the Goat: The flight attendant said, “This bath room is occupied, and you cannot stand here.” She did not say, “All passengers must remain seated while the pilot is not in the cockpit.”
“This bath room is occupied” does not in any way imply that you can’t stand up again when you can see that the person in there is leaving.
@the Goat: I tend to agree that it doesn’t seem racially motivated, but I would have to review the law to see what it says about pilots; that’s not something I’m familiar with. I do agree that she definately needed to explain herself better to the doctor.
In almost every penal code system, “Ignorance of Law” or “Mistake of Fact” are not an affirmative defense to prosecution. Every licensed driver is expected to obey every traffic law or risk citation. If you start reading your state’s transportation code, you’d be suprised for the little things you can be ticketed for (i.e.: a burnt out high-beam indicator light on the cluster panel). Most parents are still unsure of their rights regarding punishment of their children even though it is covered in most state’s family or juvenile codes.
Also, he didn’t state what he was being charged with? I’d be interested to see what they convicted him for. It also seems like he should have had his own lawyer there and not have been assigned a public defender who looks like was trying to get the case over with quickly with little regard to who he was representing.
It seems like he may not have been fully aware of his rights, but, again, that isn’t necessiarly a defense to prosecution, especially if he stated, verbally or in written form, that he knew his rights. The Miranda Warning does not have to be read to you until you are formally questioned by law enforcement regarding the case, unless exigent circumstances are present.
Of course, this is federal law, so things are somewhat different than I have been used to.
@Daemonstar: if you think a high-beam indicator light is a little thing, you obviously haven’t been blinded by idiots at night on their cells, in SUVs, driving slowly through busy roads with their high beams on. Happens to me at least once a week, and it’s always an SUV, and almost always a hand-held cell phone up to their ear as they drive by. That indicator light would add one more thing they should have done differently if a wreck were caused. Thank DoT for those reflective center markers!
For the topic at hand, I think we don’t have enough info. I’d bet, though, that he did the criminal equivalent of cashing a 10% refund check.
@Daemonstar: Even if he had known that he shouldn’t be standing when the pilot is out of cockpit, he would have to know that the pilot is out of the cockpit in order to comply. If they didn’t make an announcement, how is he supposed to know?
@the Goat: @ You do know that stewardesses aren’t law enforcement agents, right? This man was reported to proper authorities by a flight attendant who most likely described the situation as “a foreigner acting up on the airplane” and the rest was history. I don’t think every case like this has a racist element to it; I do think this one does. My take is that the flight attendant overreacted to both this man’s ethnicity and actions, and got him charged for crimes he didn’t commit because of it.
@What The Geek:
Your assumptions are just that, assumptions. You don’t know how the flight attendant “described the situation”.
@captainpicard: You’re absolutely right – and in the world in which we live, I think they’re (sadly) probably pretty accurate assumptions.
Flying while brown is the new driving while black.
Full disclaimer, I’m white, and my avatar is a black puppet. Go diversity!
@Franklin Comes Alive!: Not just any black puppet, but Franklin!
I know the circumstances are different, but Larry Craig isn’t having much luck getting out of his guilty plea….
Having said that – this is federal law, not Missouri state law. Federal law allows for the withdrawal of a guilty plea in four differen ways. The first part probably won’t apply, but that last one might.
Source:
Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11(d) Withdrawing a Guilty or Nolo Contendere Plea.
A defendant may withdraw a plea of guilty or nolo contendere:
(1) before the court accepts the plea, for any reason or no reason; or
(2) after the court accepts the plea, but before it imposes sentence if:
(A) the court rejects a plea agreement under Rule 11(c)(5); or
(B) the defendant can show a fair and just reason for requesting the withdrawal.
These are fairly amiguous terms though, and I don’t have time to check for case law.
Hope the guy is able to reverse his plea. I wonder, though, what the rest of the terms of the agreement were. Does he now have a criminal record? Was he given a withheld judgment? Anyone know?
@Flame: It seems to me if the charges turned out to be false or unfounded he could get the guilty plea overturned fairly easily. You can’t be guilty of something that didn’t happen, even if you claim you are. That letter from Frederick Taylor Jr calling the flight attendent’s behaviour “bizarre” should be exhibit A in his new court case.
@BlondeGrlz: True. Like I said, I hope it works.
The Courts don’t seem to be taking much chance with national security though.
I agree that the flight attendant could have handled it MUCH better than she did.
Personally, I don’t fly, so I didn’t even know about the rule that you can’t get up while the pilot is out of the cockpit.
The problem that I see is that he did plead guilty. You should never ever plead guilty. As expensive as it is to have to hire an attorney, at least you know that your rights will be protected. And his public defender should be smacked upside the head for telling him to plead to it.
@BlondeGrlz: There are quite a few people in state and federal prison, where the only evidence used to convict them was their confession. Some of them are on death row. Many have been executed in the past based solely on a signed confession that they claimed was presented to them by police to be some other sort of document.
The legal system is built on the assumption that no innocent person would ever plead guilty, that police and prosecutors would NEVER value case closure stats over putting the person who is truly guilty away. But neither of these assumptions is true in the present day, if they ever were true. But the assumptions remain throughout the criminal court system.
@Difdi: sadly, last time I had jury duty, there were folks in the voir dire that thought a defendant exercising his 5th amendment rights also implied his guilt.
@MrEvil: Like Mark McGwire?
How could this be a law, unless passengers are notified when the captain is away from the cockpit? This law seems a little too easy to break – simply standing up could break this law, with no way for the passenger to know where the pilot is?
@JackAshley:
I had never flown before 9/11 but have flown several times domestically and internationally since then. I have never heard of this law in the media or from an airline employee. For all I know, I’ve broken the law several times and gotten away with it.
Welcome to the New Amerika. Papers please.
@nicemarmot617: The Dude abides.
@Rhayader: “I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.”
It seems to me that if a urologist, of all people, tells you that he needs to pee, you should get out of the way. This without his saying in an authoritative way, “Clear the aisles – I’m a professional!”
@Trai_Dep:
You win the thread.
@Trai_Dep: Your post is full of win.
@Trai_Dep: Yes, you know, because he might get uromysitisis poisining and die.
Did he break the law? How can one break a secret law that he didn’t know about?
It seemed like he calmly explained the situation to the stewardess, who didn’t want to hear excuses, she just wanted him to do what he said without question.
“Power corrupts…”. This woman, and many more people like her, have been given power and responsibility that they cannot handle.
Also, these cretins may have power, but you can still have power and be nice.
Politeness goes a long way, even for people with power. Needless to say, this whole situation could have been avoided if she had been trained properly and was polite to the victim here.
@ThinkerTDM: Oh, these days it’s pretty easy to break the secret laws we don’t know about.
It’s even easier to break the secret regulations. Those are easier to create.
@Antediluvian: Double Top Secret Probation!
Have you ever heard the announcement at the beginning of EVERY flight “obey the crew members instructions”? That is the law that you know if you would put down your book or turn off your ipod and listen. That is the law he violated.
It sounds as though the “public defender” here wasn’t doing their job too well. Words like “ineffective counsel” come to mind here.
Telling someone “sign this and you can go home” after they are put through 24 hours of misery sounds rather predatory to me.
@dmuth:
As someone who has worked in Public Defense (Federally and Local), there are rules regarding communicating offers to client. Basically, unless your client has told you otherwise (i.e. accept nothing less than 5 years), a defense attorney is obligated to communicate all offers from the prosecutor to the client.
Seeing as interfering with a flight crew can get you ridiculous amounts of time in Federal PMITA Prison, a night in jail and $2,500 doesn’t sound half bad. In fact, a night in jail and $2,500 is pretty damn good for Federal offenses (something as simple as being a deported alien found in the US usually gets requires $30,000 just for bail!. Ultimately, it is the client’s decision whether to accept a plea or not.
Heh, biggest mistake there was to plead guilty. Even if he may be able to get out of it, the effort to get out of it now is going to be significantly harder.
In my opinion, never plead guilty unless you are guilty – or it is impossible to prove you are not guilty
@maztec: In all fairness to him, if you were in his situation and put into 24 hours of absurdity, I’m guessing that 8-9 out of 10 readers here would take the guilty plea, get the f— outta there, and then raise hell with the consumerist.
I hope SWA gives this guy a golden ticket for his trouble. That probably is the least they can do for him.
Seems to me this should be an opportunity for the airlines to improve their staff training. If Lora Lee had the training to say “I’m sorry Sir, the lavatory at the front of the plane is off limits to passengers at the moment. When it becomes available I will try and let you know. Until then please stay in your seat. I am sorry for any discomfort this may cause you.” Or if the passenger is allowed to get out of his seat add this “You can use the lavatory at the rear of the plane.”
But no, Lora Lee, by the accounts here, decides she is going to be the bitch in this situation and everything spirals out of control both for the paying passenger and the airline.
Lesson here? Yes! All workers in service industries need suitable training to deal with customers, clients, the general public in a way that maintains a professional and appropriate relationship. Those that can and do maintain this professional relationship need to be rewarded. Those that fail to maintain this professional relationship need to be fired.
If I were that doctor, I would be tempted to pursue this through all avenues, the courts, the press, and the Consumerist and not stop until I had Lora Lee’s head on a platter.
…or take the train…
I would hope that everyone could get together and just agree to:
a) Withdraw the guilty plea and clear his record
b) Issue a public and written apology from the Airline and the employee that sounded the false alarm.
c) Refund the man (or anyone else that paid for that ticket), giving a voucher here is insulting.
d) The flight attendant should be fired.
e) If there are any new rules and regulations, or laws, that state you cannot be up from your seat when the pilot is out of the cockpit please direct everyone to them before the flight and during the pre-flight announcements.
Sadly it still sound like a more pleasant trip than one would receive on United Airways.
The flight attendant’s behavior was unacceptable. All she had to do was explain that Federal regulations prohibit standing at the front of the plane. Most airlines tell you if you have to use the front lavatory, check the occupancy sign to make sure it is unoccupied. I dislike traveling with Southwest.
this is depressing. this is our america today. our rights are being trampled & the best we can do is plead guilty & pay the extortionist so we can just go home.
it’s unfortunate that dr. madduri chose the path of least resistance, but i don’t blame him. “go home tonite or face a protracted federal court battle 1500 miles from your home”. lord knows if they would’ve even released him – he’s a terrorist! he’s a flight risk!
the only consolation (if you can call it that) is that this is now happening to good, mainstream, law-abiding americans. only when the tyranny begins to affect the average joe does he begin to care enough to get off the couch & do something about it.
These are the same people who wouldn’t let me board a flight because I wasn’t wearing my shoes (I had to run through security because their 25-minute connection put me in another terminal). I missed that flight and got nothing but threats of arrest and prosecution for not wearing shoes.
Couldn’t a simple “pilot’s in the bathroom, come back one he’s in the cockpit again” or “a VIP is in the bathroom, I’ll come get you when it’s your turn” do the trick?
I hate all these racist, fearmongering people out there who think anybody that’s not white is out to kill them! (Full transparency: I’m a white Texan, 21yo.)
I try my best to point out whenever people are being illogical, paranoid, delusional, racist, fearmongering, etc… but damn I’m only one person.
This story itself is EXACTLY why I hate most people. Why do I HATE them? (“Wah, hate is a strong word, *whine whine*.”) Because they cause massive damages in society by their stupidity, illogical behavior, fearmongering tactics, paranoid conclusions, and delusional fantasies.
Please, people. Educate your children WELL. Encourage positive changes to public education that DO NOT involve brainwashing but instead rely on LOGIC. Vote for more politicians who who do the same (good education, good rationale, etc). This country is going downhill economically and intellectually as we continue to let these things happen. If in 5-10 years NOTHING changes to stop this slipperly slope, I’m out of here!
Yeah – once again, a situation that could have been avoided by the flight attendant doing exactly the same thing but in a “nicer” way. “I’m sorry sir, the pilots using that bathroom and we have to keep the area clear. I’ll let you know when he is done.” How do these people work in customer service and not know the simple rule of “be nice”.
@masonreloaded:
While I’m totally in agreement that the flight attendant could have been nicer, I don’t want to hear that the pilot is in the john, especially in earshot of other passengers.
People might get ideas.
Cheers!
Couldn’t he have used the bathroom at the back of the plane? Why didn’t the flight attendant tell him to do that?
This should never have happened, based on what I’ve read. Southwest is clearly in the “wrong”. The flight attendant should have explained why he couldn’t use that bathroom at that time. Although I don’t know why he wasn’t allowed to use it after the pilot had gone back to the cockpit. It really does sound like racial profiling.
@ObtuseGoose: reread the article… he did use the bathroom after the pilot had used it :-/
To those who think the public defender was wrong, re-read what he explained to the guy. He said “you can fight it and win, but it will take a lot of time and you’ll have to come back to vegas a few times. Or, you can pay $2500 and go home. No jail time, just a fine.” I fail to see how that was wrong. I’m not saying that the OP was wrong in accepting it, but he had his options explained and chose to just go home. Don’t push the blame off on the Public Defender because he explained the options to his client.
@Pylon83: If you had the terrifying experience this guy just had, would you be quick to engage in a (likely) protracted legal battle, or would you just like to to be over? Yes, he had his options explained to him, but I can see how he might have felt like he didn’t have much of a choice…
You guys have to understand a few things.
1.) Who on that plane knew this mans story? Nobody i could claim to be the pope on the plane doesn’t mean squat.
2.) Why would you tell people the captain is out of the cock pit using the bathroom? That’s an invitation to disaster if there was somebody on board that wanted to cause trouble.
3.) yes our imprisoning of people without bail or legal rights is horrible, but you people keep electing these politicians so stop complaining and start acting, Dem’s and Repub’s are all the same and until you guys understand that and start either running yourself or voting thrid party people in you’re gonna keep having stupid laws like these.
Do i feel bad for this guy? sure, he didn’t deserve all that, but he did break the law, and he did disobey the flight attendant.
Say what you will but flying is different now in the US. She made a judgment call and she knew the laws no body is to be up when the captain is going to the bathroom, it’s not like they’re gonna announce this rule at the beginning of every flight and scare people.
@Skankingmike:
Why would you tell people the captain is out of the cock pit using the bathroom? That’s an invitation to disaster if there was somebody on board that wanted to cause trouble
If they are going to make it an enforceable law, then they need to make the public aware of it. Especially if the punishment is a night in jail and a $2,500 fine. This man is a doctor. He can afford the fine more than most people. The average person in MO (per-capita income in 2006, $32,793) would find it more difficult to come up with $2,500 to cover a fine for a law that they did not know they broke. In addition, he now has a criminal record that is going to bite him in the ass every time he boards a plane. All of this because he and the pilot both had to pee.
he did break the law, and he did disobey the flight attendant.
If my options are disobey the flight attendant or piss my pants, she can take a seat.
it’s not like they’re gonna announce this rule at the beginning of every flight and scare people.
I fail to see how this would scare people. Telling people that it is illegal to tamper with the pilot’s pacemaker, I can see how that would scare people. Not telling people to sit down when the pilot has a twosie on deck.
@badhatharry:
Ignorance of the law does not excuse or Ignorantia juris non excusat. Don’t like it? move.
If you take something that you know makes you pee, just don’t take it, this isn’t’ a life or death pill i know people who take this and sometimes skip taking it a day or so.
People scare easy, that’s why. Same reason you can’t say bomb on the plane or in a crowd of people.
@Skankingmike: I’m not taking issue with ignorance of the law excusing it, I’m taking issue with your opinion that the law needs to remain a secret. I have flown A LOT since 9/11, and was never aware of this law. If they’re going to enforce the law to such an extent, then they need to let people know when they are about to break the law.
@badhatharry: I’m sure there are lots of laws you don’t’ know about. That’s what governments do. There’s so many laws out there that are obscure. But they claim its in the announcements at the beginning of the flight. It’s not their fault they zone out during this.
@Skankingmike: I too am sure that there are many laws I don’t know about, but those laws are ones that I am in no danger of breaking. Your original post said that the “no getting up while the pilot is off the flight deck” law should remain secret. It should not. Why do you keep arguing that my point is that ignorance of the law excuses breaking the law when I am arguing your point that the law should be enforceable, and secret?
@badhatharry: No i said they shouldn’t announce when the captain is leaving the cock pit, not the law shouldn’t be announced. They did in fact state that the law was announced before that flight, and all others.
Unless somebody who was a passenger on that flight speaks up, all we have is a he said she said, in which case neither party is ever telling 100% truth. Bottom line he broke a law whether he was aware of this law or not, he did in deed break it.
@Skankingmike: That’s like saying there’s a speed limit, not stating what the limit is, and then busting people for speeding. If something as pedestrian as getting up to use the restroom at a certain time is a Federal crime, then the passengers need to be made aware of when they would break that law. Even if the law was announced before the flight (once again, I have flown well over a hundred times since 9/11 and have never heard this law announced, just that it is a crime to tamper with the flight officers or flight deck, and that hardly is the case here), announcements need to be made when that law is in danger of being broken.
I’m not getting into whether or not the OP is correct (I don’t understand why a Urologist would bother with a PD), I am simply going on the hypothetical that a man was refused access to the restroom without explanation, was assualted by crew (pushed), and detained and charged with a crime. Even if he was in the wrong, he shouldn’t be charged because he was a dick on the plane.
@Skankingmike: Actually, it could be a life or death pill depending on the reason you’re taking it. I take massive doses of diuretic because I have kidney failure. If I miss one dose, my system goes on fluid overload and my eyelids, face, ankles, feet, fingers, and abdomen swell up with fluid. If my belly gets filled enough, it becomes difficult to breathe. He was taking the pill for his blood pressure. You should NEVER skip your blood pressure medicine – elevated blood pressure can cause stroke, breakage of blood vessels in the eyes and nose, and other problems that you would NOT want to have on a plane.
Why should someone have to stop their life-sustaining medication because a flight attendant is on a power trip or because there is some law no one seems to know about?
@Skankingmike: Yep…flying is different now. I have flown since 9/11–not much, but enough to know that, at NO time on ANY flight was I informed that it’s a violation of federal(?) law to be out of my seat when the captain is not at his post. Just for fun, I’m going to ask my brother about his experiences. He flies 4x per week, every week, so he’ll have some more recent experiences than I will.
So the question, for me, really becomes: can you break a law that you didn’t know existed, and were never notified that you were violating, even at the time of the infraction? I know the technical answer to my question is “yes, a law is a law whether or not you know about it.” It seems, though, that we have the right to know the laws so that we can either choose to abide, or choose to not abide. Hell…even when people get CAUGHT breaking KNOWN laws (i.e. speeding), there is some leeway to excuse first-time offenders or unusual circumstances. It seems really shady to drag this guy through the federal system for something that amounts to lack of notification and piss-poor customer service.
@Skankingmike:
People like Skankingmike, who very briskly dismiss other people’s misfortune, are always the first to go apoplectic when it happens to them.
Every. Single. Time.
This happen to you Mike, you’d be suing for $50,000,000,000,000.
Of course, I know what the next thing you’d say, too. “Oh, this would never happen to me…”
Which is why people like you go apoplectic when it happens. You secretly think that anyone arrested must be guilty of something and don’t quite get that is very often not the case.
@Skankingmike: What are the guys that are dressed in civilian clothes but are basically police in the air called? Air Martials? Sky Martials? Something like that.
Either way, she made a HORRIBLE judgment call. She sucks at customer service, and she fails to say why the guy cant use the dang toilet. She shoved the guy (which she is not allowed to do). She could have said “oh, there’s a VIP in the bathroom, I’ll let you know when it’s your turn.” But NO! Instead she decided to be racist, rude, illogical, etc and look what happened.
That woman should be fired. That guy’s record should be expunged. And employees need to be trained that not all Indians are terrorists, and not everybody that has to pee wants to kill somebody.
Also, I hate the 2-party system as well. But you’re still wrong about the law/flight attendant/too-bad BS.
@Ein2015: The woman shouldn’t be fired for doing her job.
His record should be reduced he still violated a law regardless of how many people know this exists or not, a Law is a Law if you think it’s unconstitutional then run for office or lobby them to change it.
I don’t know any Indians ever since maybe during WWII that might be considered Terrorists. I’m sure she didn’t know the difference. Which is horrible, but common we’re talking Red states here not exactly the smartest people in the world.
Racist? No profiling is a nessesary evil, and it’s not just brown and blacks that are, if you’re an irish person flying around you’re probably gonna get asked a few questions (i mean real Irish).
Same if you are or look like a gypsy, they have a horrible reputation and most cops pretty much pigeon hold them. Sucks but it’s life. Hippies want you to think everybody is equal and life is special, guess what it’s not. We all have something bigoted about us the sooner you realize that the sooner you can be at peace with this.
see previous about ignorance of law.
Ah yes, that’s right, “an invitation to cause trouble”. Bcause, as we all know, terrorism happens all the time.
Unfortunatly, the terrorism that happens is by the governemnt, and the media (just read the definition of terrorism in the the Federal Code). Terrorism from the government is the only kind that the US citizens have ever really faced.
Call me back when you have bombs going off every week or two, or rocket/sniper attacks. , you know like we had in the UK in the 90s, from those nice (mostly American funded) Irish terrorists.
Why would ACTUAL terrorists have to attack? their job is done for them, by people like this stewardess, and by Glenn Beck, Obama, Leiberman, Bush, Pelosi, et al.
“until you guys understand that and start either running yourself or voting thrid party people in you’re gonna keep having stupid laws like these.”
Do you actually know what it’s like to set up a 3rd party, or run in most states? I have been trying to set up a Us party in ANY state for 3 years. Now, bear in mind I speak english, a bit of French, and some spanish&italian. In the past 12 months I’ve managed to help form parties in Serbia, Poland, Russia, Italy, the Czech republic, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, Chili Brazil, and Peru. Ireland, Switzerland and the Ukraine. And Argentina. All those countries, which include several former soviet countries, are MORE DEMOCRATIC than the US. Easier to deal with them in their language, than with the myriad of Secretaries of State/Lt Governors (depending on state) in English. Arkansas for instance, needs 10,000 voter signatures collected within a 60 day period. Oklahoma’s so bad, most of the ’3rd parties’ have banded together- http://www.okvoterchoice.org/ (was the only state without a libertarian presidential candidate in 04)
@ the Goat:
You should call yourself “the Sheep”, because you have clearly shown yourself to be one by stating essentially that he should blindly follow instructions.
Also, learn how to spell. The word is break, not brake. Brakes are on cars.
I wish he wouldn’t have plead the case…now he will probably have trouble flying for the rest of his life.
The $100 voucher for future air travel has to be the “out of touch with reality” capper to this story. I’m sure Dr. Madduri will be quick to take SW up on the valuable offer.
Perhaps Frederick Taylor Jr moonlights as a flight-attendant trainer? Senior manager my foot.
Mommy, will the nightmares end soon?
This story is ridiculous and that stewardess deserves to be fired and charged. She didn’t explain the problem or issue at all. She said someone was in the bathroom, and when the good doctor saw someone exit another lavatory tried to go. How was he to know about a) the pilot and b) the new 9/11 rule. I’ve flown dozens of times since then and have never heard of this rule, nor have I heard a flight attendant try to stop someone from going to the bathroom.
I urge you to send the story to your local news. Southwest played nice after the news media got hold of the skimpy-dress story. Here is more Southwest acting ridiculously. Contact your newspapers, local and national tv stations, and editors.
I don’t understand why he just didn’t use the bathrooms in the rear of the airplane. He clearly “needed to go.” I agree that what the flight attendant did was not right, but it seems to be that it could have been avoided by using the other restrooms.
Pro Tip for future flights: If you have a medical issue, inform the flight crew in advance so that they can accommodate your special needs.
@cmdrsass: Yeah, I’ll be sure to notify the flight crew that yes, I do use the bathroom. Can’t take too many chances.
Or maybe I’ll wear diapers.
There is no mention of what the charges were and what he plead guilty to.
to all those saying ‘he broke the law’… how many of us posting here knew that this law existed in the first place? has anyone seen it listed on their boarding passes, posted at the gates, on the headrest infront of you, or even announced in the safety instructions?
and why did’nt she tell him of this law on the aircraft? why did he only hear of it at his arrest?
has anyone looked this law up as yet?
@KhaiJB:
Laws don’t have to be posted, nor do you have to be aware of them in order to be charged with breaking them. That said, I question whether such a law truly does exist, however there are usually enough “Catch all” laws that can encompass something like this.
@KhaiJB: I think the law that was allegedly broken was interference with a flight crew. They seem to use that an awful lot lately to cover these kinds of instances, and no, they’re under no legal obligation to stage a reading of all applicable laws and statutes prior to the plane taking off.
On recent flights with JetBlue, I noticed two things: the flight attendants always dragged the drink cart across the front bulkhead wall opening and stood behind it with their arms crossed, whenever a member of the crew came out for call of nature or coffee; and that the cockpit crew always used the bathroom one right after the other, that is, the co-pilot and the pilot always used the bathroom in sequence, so that the aisle only had to be blocked once. I think this is probably who the first user of the bathroom was in this case, the co-pilot, and then he was followed by the pilot who was named as such by the flight attendant.
Last time I was on Southwest, and the pilot went to the restroom, all of the flight attendants went to the front of the plane and barricade the front with the food service carts. If you were in the first row, you couldn’t get out of your row, and anyone behind that couldn’t get past that first row.
@cmdrsass: Yes, and they’ll just throw that person off the plane.
@KhaiJB: Exactly. I had no idea this existed. If I was told of this, I would’ve complied – Lora Lee’s false assumption was that everyone knew the new rule and when that didn’t turn out to be the case, Dr. Madduri’s “disruption” turned into Lora Lee treating him like dirt.
I am completely ashamed of Southwest, this stewardess, and America. What have we come too?
I hope this Doctor sues the pants off all involved.
I hope this guy OWNS Southwest Airlines after this… actually, that would probably be a bad investment.
Also, the fact that Southwest contacted him first says they know what they did was wrong. Why else bother to contact him other than to buy him off with a worthless voucher?
been looking on the FAA and TSA websites… and I’m not finding any law that states you must sit when the pilot is sh… ok we’ll avoid that joke..
anyone else found it yet?
@KhaiJB: nope, ran a search here:
[ecfr.gpoaccess.gov] which i was linked to from the FAA website
looking through about 4500 search results involving the word passenger, but the only thing i can find is [as someone else said above] ‘interfering with flight crew’
or being out of his seat when the fasten seat belt sign was on, IF that is the case [which the OP didn't refer to at all, so we don't know what the situation there was]
I really hope he sues Southwest and the flight attendant.
Should have just pissed on the seat. Refusing basics such as sanitary conditions (which includes a bathroom) is a violation of civil rights in most cases. Even teachers can’t really refuse to let a student use the bathroom (though you likely won’t learn that until college that it was just a bluff).
What a poor, poor guy. He’s living in the country providing medical attention to the citizens of it, and he gets f**cked over by the same country. Sadly, with the paranoia of the US about anyone not even remotely white, the best thing he could actually do, is move to another country. Or at the very least refuse to fly in a country where a sizable percentage of the people who are racist, biggoted, arrogant and ignorant of anyone who doesn’t look like them. It’s a sad state of affairs, but the media have talked the more ignorant of the US citizens into thinking everyone with even a hint of brown to their skin is a terrorist. And I think most people would be shocked how many US citizens probably actually feel that way, especially on an aircraft. And the people likely to defend against that statement, are exactly the type of people who feel that way. A good deal of people in US don’t leave their own country and learn mostly about the wider world from the Media and the media act like everyone from the Middle East hates the US and they’re all terrorists. Let’s hope the new President to come, if he happens to be an African American (Or whatever the current PC term is) can change that mentality and everyone can relax a little.
wtf all this and Southwest had the gall to offer him a measly $100?
1- Lora Milton should be fired.
2- Southwest should make an actual apology. Go visit the guy in person (you can afford it, you run an airline!) and apologize in person. Offer him free flights for a year. This is a huge PR disaster and will only get worse if Southwest continues to offer $100 “we’re so sorry and we take this seriously” apologies.
3- Ensure that this does not happen again by instructing cabin stewards to tell the passengers why they can’t go to the bathroom. Make this part of the “here’s how to buckle your seatbelt” spiel.
@howie_in_az:
In SWA’s defense, they probably didn’t know the full details of what happened to the doctor after the flight landed. They were probably just trying to apologize for their insane stewardess.
1. Fired? Head on a pike in front of SWA’s headquarters as a warning to all employees that they take this sort of thing “very seriously”.
2. What honestly makes you think this guy is EVER going to want to fly in the US – let alone on SWA – ever again? What about the $2500 he paid for bail after being arrested for this mess?
3. Bah, do you honestly think there is such a rule? The guy tried to go to the bathroom when no one was in there, and was yelled at and physically pushed back into his seat by the stewardess.
From looking at the article, our good doctor should be looking at filing assault and battery charges against the stewardess, a lawsuit for his pain and suffering against SWA, not to mention possible lawsuits against the Las Vegas police department for false arrest, any number of civil rights violations. It doesn’t sound to me that he was actually charged with anything, and even when they couldn’t find anything suspicious in his background, they still didn’t let him go.
Next time he’ll know better. He should have just dropped his pants, and urinated on the stewardess right there. As they say, if you’re going to do the time, might as well do the crime.
As someone who has accepted guilty pleas from people as part of plea bargains (which is what this sounds like), it is incredibly hard to appeal. When you plead guilty as part of a bargain, you sign away your right to appeal and acknowledge it in open court (with a few exceptions that are hard to prove- and being scared of staying in jail are not one of them).
Having plead guilty also pretty much ruins his right to sue the Feds for wrongful arrest (since the arrest lead to a valid conviction). I suppose he could try suing Southwest and the flight attendant (who I doubt has much money), but it will be very hard to have a jury find that the airline acted improperly when the Doctor ended up pleading guilty after the FA did her thing.
“break the law” not brake.
He sounds very rude and pushy and I am not sure we are getting the whole story.
First, I would image the “fasten your seatbelts” sign was illuminated. And, secondly, is there no rear bathroom? Why is he trying to push past the stewardess instead of calmly explaining his situation and asking for alternatives to the front bathroom.
Besides, the attendant told him he couldn’t use the front restroom and he ignored her completely and acted in a menacing way towards her. I would guess she was rightfully scared seeing that the pilot was in the toilet and this man is refusing her request to wait and attempting to push by her to get to the pilot while he was in the bathroom. If I acted in the manner this man did, I would expect to be detained and possibly arrested.
@james: Congratulations, you are officially Part Of The Problem.
Southwest’s response was just another slap in the face…a $100 voucher??? At the very least they should offer to reimburse him for the $2,500 fine and pay the legal fees to clear his name.
It also states in the article that there was a line to use the bathroom at the rear of the plane. I’ve been on a few flights were people seem to be unaware that there are bathrooms in multiple locations, the rear of the plane always seems to queue up more than anywhere else.
Was there another bathroom in the back of the plane that he could have used? I’m not trying to blame the victim, it’s really an honest question.
If there was a bathroom in the back of the plane, the sensible thing for the flight attendant to do would be to tell him that that particular restroom was unavailable and direct him to the one in the back.