How Do You Get Out Of An EBay Auction? Say Killer Bees Attacked The Vehicle
Pat won an auction for an RV on eBay last week. He bid a little over $15,000 for a vehicle that was listed for sale by the RV company for $29,999 on other sites. Pat was worried that Nelson's RV might try to find a loophole to cancel the auction since he'd scored such a great deal, so he immediately sent his required $250 deposit to them and asked for someone at Nelson's RV to contact him. Eventually, after some run around, he got the following email—with one of the ballsiest excuses we've ever seen.
We are devastated with our discovery this morning of a swarm of Africanized killer bees in the 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel that you have a deposit on. We have used multiple poisons in an attempt eradicate them. We have vacuumed up the bees that covered the floors, cabinets, and furniture. We tried to clean the traces of honey on the countertops and cabinet tops as completely as possible. This is one of the terrible acts of Mother Nature we have in Arizona. As best we can determine, the bees entered from the door that had been left opened yesterday morning. The interior of this trailer does have a strong chemical odor from the poison and is TOXIC. Our insurance regulations prohibit us from selling this 5th wheel at this time.
Due to these circumstances beyond our control, we are unable to proceed with the sale of this 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel. This vehicle is unsafe for occupancy or use. We are therefore refunding your deposit at this time. We have attached several photos. Watch EBay for other close-outs we will be posting soon.
Pat examined the photos, but they are very small (we're posting them exactly as he sent them to us) so it's kind of hard to tell if they've been manipulated.
Pat writes,
The two cans of “TOXIC” chemicals pictured in the second picture are indoor household foggers manufactured by Hot Shot and Ortho. Both were designed to be used, and are safe, for indoor use.
Within a few minutes of receiving the e-mail, I received another from PayPal indicating that my deposit had been refunded by Nelson RV.
My attorney advised me that he felt all the elements were in place for a contract and that even if their story were true, it should be my decision as to whether I wanted to accept the trailer in that condition. If a product that has been offered for sale does not turn out to be as advertised, then the buyer can decide to not go through with the sale. He told me that if I wanted it, I should send them an E-mail explaining my position and see how they respond.
So Pat resubmitted his $250 deposit and sent Nelson RV the following email:
After discussions with my attorney today and reviewing material safety data sheets of both the Ortho and Hot Shot brand indoor foggers that you used, I have decided that I will still take the 5th wheel. Thank you for disclosing the unfortunate event.
I would like to send a local representative to your dealership to inspect the unit as my agent. I would also like to resubmit the necessary deposit as required in our contract.
Please call me to arrange a time for closing as I intend on traveling to Arizona to pick up the Sandpiper within the next week.
This seemed to push Nelson RV to the breaking point, because they dropped the killer bees story and have turned to a new tactic, saying Pat was mistaken and never bought a trailer from them, and in fact there is no trailer anymore, so quit bothering them.
I received a call from Jim Nelson. Jim said that he understood that I “think” I have bought a trailer from Nelson RV and that it was just EBay and Bee’s nonsense that I was talking to James Nelson about.[Editor: What?] But that he had the owner there, Angelita Nelson, and that he was going to put her on the phone.
Angelita got on the phone and said “You did not buy a trailer from us and to quit calling and e-mailing us.” I Responded that the trailer was offered to the highest bidder in an auction, and that I was the highest bidder. Therefore I believe we have a contract for the sale. Angelina replied forcefully, “There is no contract! And we don’t even have the trailer anymore.” I responded by saying, that is not what the e-mails I have from you say, and I hope you still have the trailer because we have a deal. She then said in a very angry tone, “We do not have a deal! And we will not allow you to swindle us out of $15,000.” At which point the phone went dead.
Pat sent one more email to the Nelsons—Jim, James, and Angelina—in which he tried to educate them on how eBay works, and urged them to seek legal counsel so that they'd understand their obligation to fulfill the contract. As of Thursday July 24th, they haven't responded and Pat hasn't received a refund on his second deposit.
The Nelsons have indicated to him that someone will get back to him today, July 25th. Unless, of course, Africanized killer bees infest their computer and render it unusable. Once killer honey gets all up in your motherboard, you can forget about it.
(Photos: Bee, aussiegall; RV, Beige Alert; Honey Bears, buskuit)
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Comments:
Perhaps the sellers aren't very familiar with ebay. I see they have a feedback rating of (1).
Started bidding at $5000.
First rule of ebay for sellers: you MAY just sell the item for the staring bid, so price it carefully! (I sold some software for a penny, and the buyer lived in town and picked it up. Dang.)
This is NOT a blame the victim post, but I think I see what happened. These folks are new to eBay, and didn't understand the whole "reserve price" requirement. They're shocked to find out they just sold this trailer for a huge discount, and now they're trying to weasel out of it. It's an explanation, not an excuse.
My guess is that OP will have to sue them, which is a royal pain for an out-of-state seller.
It was great that the dealership was dumb enough to actually send an e-mail with the killer bee story. Terrific paper trail. Between that and their subsequent denials, I think they could get laughed out of court. Hopefully the dealership would have to pay court costs and Pat's travel costs. This amounts to an eBay do-over which everyone frowns on, even eBay.
Small claims court?
I love good excuses; this one makes me all happy inside!
If that's the original resolution of the pics, what'd they use to take them? An original TracFone?
I think the seller deserves a $15K loss as an ebay education. Most people who sell on ebay have one or two "lessons" like that...perhaps not as expensive, but that's how it works.
Is it too soon to start nominating for next year's Worst Company in America?
but if it's just an excuse where did they get the bees from?
I love how eBay sellers always assume that their auction will go for more than it is actually worth and will list it way below anything they are willing to accept. Way back when I used to sell stuff on eBay, I would put the starting bid as the absolute minimum I would be willing to take for the item. That way, if it doesn't sell, I'm out just the listing fees, and if it sells, then I'm not disappointed. I can't abide making up excuses not to sell just because they didn't get how much they wanted. If they had wanted a guarantee of more than $15k, they should have listed on Craigslist, since nothing on eBay is certain.
Back to the issue at hand...best bet is to continue on the vein that you are on. Keep emphasizing the contract side of eBay sales. Good luck!!
This is too big for small claims court, especially since the apparent retail price is $30,000. IANAL, but it sure seems to me that there was a bona fide contract executed here and the failure of the seller to deliver (coupled with an attempt at defrauding the OP to reneg on the contract) would make for a very simple court case for the buyer.
Of course, the OP would have to sue in the home state of the seller, but it might still be a great deal, even if it ends up costing the OP a few thousand dollars more in legal fees. ($20 or even $25 thousand is still a pretty decent discount from list and the OP MAY even have grounds for award of court and legal costs, thanks to the attempt to swindle).
OP - I almost never say this, but CALL A LAWYER!
Guess these geniuses at the dealership never heard of reserve auctions. That way they would have insured they got the minimum price that they were willing to take for the RV.
No mention either of where E-Bay stands on this. Guess they will give the seller one strike and leave it at that?
eBay sales contracts are generally held to be legally binding. See this fine blog: [consumerist.com] for a similar story of dealer weaselling.
Looks like Nelson went and sold all it's Sandpiper 5th wheels already. Or has stopped offering them. Looked like a nice ride, too.
So, how exactly do you sue for something you didn't receive and haven't yet paid for? Can a judge order Nelson RV to honor the sale, even if they don't have the model you bid on?
@wgrune:
Small claims has a max amount you are allowed to sue for (hence the name "small" claims). In Arizona, that limit is $2500. I wonder...would he have to file a suit in small claims court in Arizona (state of the company he bought the RV from), or in his own home state? Depending on his home state, he may be able to sue in small claims for $15,000 (Delaware, Georgia), or even $25,000 (Tennessee).
Full list of small claims court limits: [www.nolo.com]
Interesting - the seller was known as "myrv2002" on eBay from Nov-09-02 thru Jul-10-08 then they changed their handle to "tucsonrv" around when this auction started. Given this, I don't think these people are new to eBay.
ColdNorth is correct. I am nobody's lawyer, but there's strong evidence of fraud here, which greatly strengthens the case.
Lawyer up, dude.
Hey wait - he bought this trailer AS-IS! They owe him a trailer PLUS a swarm of killer bees!!!!
@EyeHeartPie: Max amount for damages. But this is about upholding a contract, not damages. He can't sue for $15,000, because he hasn't paid it yet. Though, if I'm wrong, and he can, then that would be messed up.
@EyeHeartPie: Those limits are irrelevant because the buyer is not going to claim damages of $15,000. There aren't really any "damages" here, per se (it's not like he paid the $15,000 and got nothing in return), other than compelling the seller to abide by the contract terms. So he would sue for specific performance.
@chrisjames:
Oh yeah...crap. I forgot about that. Small claims is for damages. If they had sold it to him, accepted the money, then trashed the RV and refused to refund the money, that would be grounds for a small claims action.
I guess the only action is to continue to use that lawyer of yours to get them to hold up their end of the contract.
And how long till HP starts denying laptop warranty repairs based on Evidence of Killer Bee Infestation?
@zigziggityzoo: Equal or greater than what, though? $15,000 or $30,000? Maybe, equal to $30,000, but let him buy it for $15,000? That seems like the only way to honor the spirit of the auction.
I'm sure the deal should go through and our government will step in to assist the irresponsible seller with the loss. It's not their fault they do not know how eBay and contracts work.
That $15K they've "swindled" is going to go a long way towards defraying gas costs!
A guy I used to work with had to deal with a car dealership who attempted to pull the same thing on him. Not only did the car sell for less on eBay than the dealership paid for it in the first place, when the he went to pick it up (had to drive all the way down to Texas), the car was in need of $500 or so worth of maintenance just to be drivable for the return trip.
After much going back and forth, the dealership eventually caved and made the repairs - probably only because my coworker was in their office, 12 hours from home, and they couldn't just hang up the phone on him. They ended up losing some $2000 on the car and never sold on eBay again.
Either lawyer up or go down there and get in their faces. They could end up spending a lot more money defending their own breach of contract in court if it gets to that, you just need to show them you're willing to go that far.
It really sucks for this guy, but if I were him I wouldn't go near that trailer. If they are forced to give it to him, you can be sure that they will do whatever it takes to render that trailer completely useless - break appliances, pee on the floor, etc. They have already shown that they are willing to lie and cheat to get out of the deal.
Also, why would anyone use EBay? I have never seen a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I think we should call the dealer like we did the last time a car dealer tried to back out of an ebay auction. Do we have any contact information for this dealership?
@chrisjames: Most likely the judges decision, but I'm sure it would be similar to that. Equal or greater than $30k, and let him buy it for $15k.
Else, dealer would have to buy out the contract for something like $15k and both parties walk away from the deal.
@linus: HA!!! They have a toll-free number...
We could seriously rack up bills for them. Not saying we should...but we could.
(I'm feeling especially devious today.)
I second the motion to be wary of whatever they try to settle with. They probably will find a completely fvcked up example high higher mileage as a replacement.
I'll bet if the OP reneged on paying for the vehicle if the dealership had found the highest bid acceptable they'd be after him like killer bees on a 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel. This company needs to be taught a big lesson.
From the BBB:
Name: Nelson RV
Phone: (520) 293-1010
Fax: (520) 690-1613
Address: 4310 N Flowing Wells Rd
PO Box 35505
Tucson, AZ 85705-2306
Website: www.tucsonrv.com
Principal: Angelita, James Nelson
Customer Contact: Angelita, James Nelson - (520) 293-1010
File Open Date: January 2007
TOB Classification: Auto Dealers-Used Cars
BBB Accreditation: This organization is not a BBB Accredited business.
BBB has requested basic information from this company but has not received a response. As a result, BBB may not have current information about the company.
Customer Experience: The BBB processed a total of 0 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period.
"THE FACTORY RETAIL PRICE ON THIS NEW 5TH WHEEL IS $44,731. WE ARE SELLING BELOW OUR DEALER INVOICE!"
Uh, I believe 15K is below your dealer invoice. But you ain't sellin!
Killer bees.. that is AWESOME.
My email to sales@nelsonrv.com:
"I really like the style of the above noted RV...
Can I get Killer Bees included with that?"
I live in AZ and amazingly enough just a few blocks away from Nelson RV. I can tell you that it is an older non internet savvy family run establishment. The owners more than likely had no clue what they were doing. I'm not sticking up for them either because they should have read up on ebay and the terms before selling anything on there.
As for the bee infestation . I had a bee infestation when I lived across the street from that business and it took months for that to be an issue. They don't just move in over night so they obviously knew they screwed up and its not right that they tried to back out in such a manor.
I'm ashame that a business in the flowing wells community would pull such a stunt and I for one will never do business with their repair side of the business again.
OP may get faster and cheaper results with a phone call to the local motor vehicle dealer licensing folks. Some states have mechanisms in place just for things like this (Virginia is one). They can impose hefty fines and/or revoke the dealer or salesperson licenses.
If the killer bee story is true (which I imagine isn't), why would the dealer "not have the RV"? Shouldn't it be destroyed or something?
Also, if it's true that they can't sell it, what's wrong with someone inspecting it?
Has the OP called the Attorney General of AZ?
@EdnaLegume: Honestly they are better off calling them as I doubt most of the folks there even know how to turn on the computer let alone check email. A phone call and certified snail mail would reach them and be more effective in this case.
"We tried to clean the traces of honey on the countertops and cabinet tops as completely as possible."
That was one hell of an all nighter. Those are some damn efficient bees
@tawni: I'm ashame that a business in the flowing wells community would pull such a stunt and I for one will never do business with their repair side of the business again.
I think you should go in to the dealership, alert them to this article and the likelihood on the impending lawsuit, and explain to them that you are never doing business with them purely because of the way they've seemed to lie and wiggle their way out of this deal.
I justed e-mailed the AG. Hopefully, something will be done.
@tawni: Honestly they are better off calling them as I doubt most of the folks there even know how to turn on the computer let alone check email. A phone call and certified snail mail would reach them and be more effective in this case.
Someone from the dealership sent OP two emails already.
@mariospants: Assuming they listed the correct VIN in the auction, they probably wouldn't be able to switch it for a different vehicle.
Liars! All of them! Well, except the OP.