I'm curious if it's possible to use these phrases to manipulate the sales-critter to your benefit somehow.

Like exclaiming how you "love, love, LOVE" this car but then walking away from the deal if it's not good enough, but now the sales-critter is all worked-up thinking you're a sucker but really you're playing hardball.

I'm not sure that's the right approach, I'm just wondering.

One of the best techniques I learned is to do as much over the phone as possible. I once had to shop for a car when I lived about 45 minutes from a dealership, and out of necessity, I did all the negotiations over the phone.

We had test-driven the car, so the guy knew we were interested, but man, it was so nice to have lunch and get the gutters cleaned while he "talked to the finance guy," instead of having to play the waiting game in his office.

Whenever you buy a car, ALWAYS research with a particular make/model in mind. ALWAYS have a prepaid check from your credit union or bank.
I don't have a problem telling the salesman my terms to buy a car. My financing, taxes and payments are handled through my credit union so I already know what my monthly payment is going to be ahead of time. Because of this, the dealers don't need a credit check on me, and it eliminates another "haggling" factor.

Also, if you do plan to trade in - the dealers will never give you the full value of your car. Knowing this up front helps with the "shock" of such a lowball offer.

In other words, I'm in control, not the salesman.

@MisterE: Yeah, the trade in value is surprising. You might have better luck selling your car (if you have any equity in it at all) to CarMax - and then take that cash. We ended up getting quite a bit more selling the car, even at CarMax, than doing the whole trade in bit at the dealership.

@Antediluvian: I did the "OMG I love this car!" at a VW dealer in 2005 and walked away. It was a 2004 New Beetle that sat on the lot from August 2004 to May 2005. However, the sales manager was unwilling to come down on the sticker price. The price included a $995 "Dealer Prep" and the deceptive "Free Gas for a YEAR!" which, in reality, tacked an additional $600 on the total.

I mentioned the fact that the car had been on the lot for 8-9 months and why in the world would I pay them to wash the car for me? I struck several bogus figures off the managers list and said, "You'll have to pluck that chicken yourself." I also waffled on the fact that I'd put over $1K of stereo equipment into my (then) current car.

That evening the salesman (not manager) called. He said the manager was so desperate for a sale they would've knocked all the fees AND installed my stereo into the new car. By that point I was done and still said no.

So if someone can play the Love This Car! game and walk away, it really can work in their favor. Just got to have balls of steels to do it.

@4ster: I did this with my last car and it worked beautifully. I called everywhere. Did the whole thing by phone initially and then email. I had a paper trail.
I ended up getting the car I wanted for several thousand less than anyone else I've met with the same car.

Phone and email- its the only way to do it without all the hassle.

I have had great success at doing research on Edmunds.com and KBB.com. Both sites allow you to "build" your car, and give you a print out of the MSRP, and invoice price for each option. They will also tell you the dealer holdback price, and any special promotions that the manufacturer is running for the dealer.

I almost always have to special order the car with the options that I want, as my tastes do not match that of the typical American, and I almost always have pre-arranged financing from my bank. Prior to visiting the dealership, I also go to Carmax and have my car appraised, as well as KBB so I know the true value for my tradein.

I then walk into the dealership, select the car that I want, and I let the salesman come back with his "first" offer. I then hmm & haw for a while, and casually open up my research folder, tell him exactly what the car costs him, what is holdback is, and then give him a fair price that I am willing to pay so they are earning a fair amount of proffit. I tell them that is the highest that I will pay, and I want to cut out all of this BS. If after your next talk with your manager, you can not meet that price, I am leaving. The next offer may come back a bit higher than your counter-offer (few hundred dollars), if it does, stand up and begin to walk out, they will usually make up some lie and give you the price that you stipulated. As I usually custom order, no dealer has an advantage as they ALL need to custom order, so there is no pain of "they have the perfect car" that I have to deal with, and I can alsways walk away from the dealer and go to the one up the road.

As I come in with my own financing, have alternate plans for a trade in, and have done all of my homework and know exactly what the car costs, they have nothing to bargain on but the price (and I let them know early on what I am willing to pay) so all of the BS goes away, and I can be in and out in an hour.

Once we get a price on the car, I will then ask them to give me an offer on the trade, If I don't like it, I sell my trade to CarMax.

I got caught on my first new car purchase by the textbook car salesman and I learned a couple of things from that experience. Fortunately I checked the paperwork because they actually tried to charge me more than sticker. I still got robbed but they did "fix" that.

Number one is always be willing to walk away from a car deal. You can't win them all but nothing makes them start backpedaling like someone saying "That wasn't what I had in mind, maybe I'd have better luck somewhere else". But you have to mean it. They are masters of the insincere and can see right through amateurs.

I've also had good luck buying the strange and unusual off the lot. Stuff nobody else seems to want. Usually it's been advertised for a while or it's behind the building with a big red tag on it. I don't go looking for a specific car, I go looking for a specific deal. Demos, plain janes and stuff like that.

Another good thing to do is definately goto www.carfax.com

This site will give you the low down on any reported accidents plus tell you the number of owners where it was registered. This was an invaluable tool when we were looking. It definately ruled out a couple of vehicles when we were shopping.

We did not have a pre-paid cheque from our credit union but we did sit down and get pre-approved for 15,0000.

We ended up getting a 2004 Grand AM GT with about 37,0000 KM or 23,000 Miles. We spent just over our 15,000 after all was said and done but we were able to talk the dealership down to 13,000 (I think) purchace price. Then add in all the taxes as well as a few other things we requested they do to the car before we took posession.

Car was advertised for just over 16,500 when the sales man asked if we were willing to budge on the price we told him we'd be open to going lower than our offer, at which point he said congrats.

Blue book on the car according to the credit union was about 14,500 based on having about 50,000 KM

All in all we made out good on this car, it's fun to drive and great on the highway.....Gas prices are a bit high at the moment so there is a bit of regret that we ended up getting a "Semi-High performance" car but this car gets great milage on the highways. All in all we are happy with the purchace.

The biggest suggestion I have especially if your looking for used cars is to talk to other dealerships in the area and ask if they can find something that is similar. Most used cars are purchaced by dealerships at auctions. Some dealerships will try to find what your looking for if they don't have anyting in stock that intrests you.

Always take someone with you. No matter what the saleman tells you, look at the other person and say something like, "I'm not really comfortable with that, are you?" And be ready to walk if they don't ask, "Well, what would you be comfortable with?" It gets the ball rolling. It is their first backpedal. But like the experts say, do your homework first and don't get married to a car.

I don't like the idea of ordering off the lot. Lots of unknowns happen to a car while sitting on the lot, like lot damage, very short hard drives around the lot, test drives, etc.

My last car I ordered from a list of inbound vehicles to the dealer, since dealer didn't have the color and options I wanted. The salesman tried to convince me to take one off the lot, and I refused. The car I picked was at the time on a truck in Montana being shipped to Delaware. When it arrived I picked it up the next day. Only had 4 miles on it.

I also stipulate that if they try to put any dealer badges or stickers on the car, the deal is off, and make them write that on the paperwork. I hate those things. That's easier to do with a car not on the lot because many of them badge it up as part of their prep.

Great pic by the way. Great movie.

Used Cars

I always heard that you should bring a spare set of keys with you so that if they try the lost key bit, you can just up and drive off and tell them to mail you the keys, or else.

I also heard you should bring a "bad" check from an old or closed account so if they ask for a check, you can hand it over, and if they try the "The check got locked in the safe and the Mgr. went home", you can tell them to mail it back or bin it b/c the check isn't good anyway.

@homerjay:

Not trying to be ornery,but be careful with the "negotiate over the phone" thing,especially if the car is in another city or an inconvenient drive away. Salesmen that are up against their quota will give you a price and tell you that it includes all fees. Then when you arrive,they will tack those fees back on because " my manager won't let me waive the dealer prep,doc fee etc..." They know that you have just driven a ways and already have some investment in the car.I had written the name,price,date and all salient details down and double checked.They said tough. I listened to their BS for the discrepancy then told them to stuff it and found a better car for less money.

Before I was fortunate enough to get my current job, I did a stint as a car saleman. So far this post and everybody else has been right on the mark. I wasn't your typical car salesman, I was more about helping the customer, not myself or the dealership. There was several occasions where I even waved my commision, just to get the customer the price they wanted.
Of the things you can do to better your situation, top of the list is research. Find out all you can about how much the car you are interested in is roughly supposed to cost. Consumer reports offers a service for this, costs a bit, but generally saves you alot. Even when you are finally at the dealership, ask for a printout of the car's invoice. Most dealers will do that for you. On it it says exactly what the dealer paid for the vehicle. But there are generally additional, incentives and whatnot that will lower the price of the vehicle as well.
If your used car is worth less than $10,000... try and sell it yourself. I can largely gaurantee you'll get more money for it that way. Told many of my customers this. Sales manager wanted to give em $500, they could easily have gotten $1500- $2000 if they sold it themselves.
Communication by email is very good, not so much by phone. Phone work is spotty. If I wasn't busy, I would help the customer as much as possible. But if I was busy I wouldn't really spend the time on a phone call, I would actually just try to get off the phone quickly. A customer that is right there in front of you is always better than one who is on the phone. Which is why emails are good, the salesman can work on them in his free time. And therefore dedicate more effort.
Never be afraid to walk out. Nothing allowed me to bring down the sales manager better, than somebody who was willing to walk out.
If the salesman does use the four square, focus on your trade in value and the car's value. Then you are negotiating with the dealer's money. If you fall into the normal trap and focus on the monthly payment and the down payment then you are negotiating with your money.
Also if it is possible, shop during the week and towards the end of the month. And if at all possible, the end of the model year. Nothing gets you a lower price than a salesmanager who needs to meet a quota and is far from his goal :)

I swore off dealing with ANY & ALL car salesmen when i first started looking for a vehicle long ago. I ran into so many scumbag car salesmen that I decided to ONLY buy from individuals only after my mechanic checking it out first & a carfax check. I have never bought from a dealer & never plan on doing so. ANd after my jeep wears out I plan on buying the next one in cash.

When I purchased my used 99 malibu several years ago (2000), we drew up a deal and the salesman said "Let me get this approved by my manager". Well, the manager came back with some BS that the bank would only take the financing if I took the $700 extended warranty. By the way, I was approved for $0 down financing before we started to haggle.
Apparently the #1 reason people default is because the car breaks down and they dont want to pay for a dead horse. I quickly reminded them they had just broken Michigan law, which specifically states a car sale cannot hinge on the purchase of an extended warranty, and I got up to leave. I took out my PDA (hey, it was 2000) and started jotting down names. Amazingly, almost as if by magic, the car was suddenly available without the extended warranty.
The salesman almost called off the deal when I told him at delivery to take it back in the shop and remove all the dealer badges (3 of them! WTF?) and their logo license plate frame unless they were going to pay me a monthly fee to advertise for them.

@Snarkysnake: You still need to be prepared to walk away.

I had to drive 4 hours to get my TDI Passat and trade in my Explorer (the next closest dealer was in Texas). I told the salesman before I made the trip that I love to drive and that if he pulled any shenanigans, I would gladly drive home in my old car.

Everything went as planned :)

"I want to pay X per month" is possibly the worst thing you can do. I've seen people do this very thing while waiting at dealerships for parts. they love hearing that... because they can write something up that's X per month for 10 years... worst idea ever. another thing you never want to do is let them find financing for you. NEVER get financing through the dealership! always go through your own bank, whether it's a credit union or sometimes even your insurance company offers car loans, and they'll be at much much better rates and often even carry free gap insurance.

I've done many of the above, but I also like to:

When they treat me like I'm stupid (especially based on my pair of X chromosomes), I like to ACT like I'm stupid. It drives them absolutely batshit. I'll listen intently through their whole pitch and then totally miss their point. I'll insist I can't make any decisions on options/upgrades without calling my husband for permission and, oh darn, he's in a meeting. They get more and more desperate as they realize I'm apparently too stupid to haggle if they can foist a bad deal on me, but they can't figure a way to make the sale.

It also works with appliance and electronic salesmen, and anywhere else they like a hardsell based on you being too female to make good decisions.

Walking out is faster, but much less fun :D

@Psychodad1961: I ALWAYS make them remove the stupid dealer stickers. I'm paying THEM for a car... if they want I can take it for free and leave their ads on it. It's not as if they built the car! Heck, sometimes I even remove the manufacturer badges if they're stupid looking.

One thing to try: if you're a guy this works great... bring your girlfriend/wife along with you. just as the deal is about to be struck, have her "pull you aside" and seemingly give you shit for buying another car... have her go "wait in the car" to "cool off" -- the dealer will instantly try to knock off $1,000+

@Snarkysnake:

I've done it over the Internet, but in reverse:

Sent an email to a bunch (6 or 7) of dealerships saying:

1. I want to buy XYZ.
2. I'll pay $X for it, including all fees (taxes would vary by location, whether I paid them there or at registration)
3. I'm prepared to pick up this car this weekend (sent these out on a Monday)
4. If you're interested, fax me a contract, and I'll fax it back to you with credit card authorization for $500 (proves I'm serious and not just jerking them around, also locks them into a written agreement, so no "oh, didn't we mention the schmergenbergen fee of $300? sorry about that!").

Sent the emails late AM, got a fax about 4PM. Picked up the car that Saturday.

The best technique we recently used - We went to the dealership together, he seemed interested but I walked out like 6 times saying that I didn't like what they were offering. Our salesman was super skeevy and we mentioned so to the finance guy, who called his manager and that got the price lowered again.
After walking out, what felt like a million times, we ended up with the car we wanted, with brand new tires, and approx. and additional $7,000 off.
Men, take your ladies.
Ladies, use your pms for good.

@weave: For a great movie about car dealers (and it's a documentary), see "Slasher". You'll have even less respect for car sales reps after seeing it.

@weave: my gf did the same thing with the dealer stickers. she found a mustang mach1 that just got onto a lot and didn't get 'tagged' yet. well she bought it, or at least had the deal setup. she stipulated that absolutely no dealer decals can be put on the car or else she's walking away. well she comes back the next day to sign the paperwork and pick up the car and lo and behold, there's stickers on it. They tried to give her the runaround how they can't take them off once they are on...so she said fine and started to leave. those stickers came off faster than they were put on.

I bought my used Altima at a Nissan dealership. During an early part of the converstion, the salesman told me that every car is state inspected when it is received before it is put on the lot for sale. He intended that as a selling point, but I used it to my advantage. When I found the car I wanted, the inspection stickers were several months old. This told me that the car had been there for a couple months, and I used that knowledge to get a little better deal.

Well, I don't like this Turkish bazaar thing when I go car shopping. I usually find the car I like and pay MSRP. It used to be that if it has a dealer sticker on it, I tell the guy I will pay MSRP and not one penny more. Then they'd go in the manager's office for approval, then come back saying something like "we can knock 50% off the dealer add-ons..."

Now, if there is a dealer sticker on the car, I just walk because I know the stress and bullshit merely BEGINS with the bullshit dealer add-ons. There are plenty of places out there where I can buy a car as if I were buying a microwave oven at Target, and for me, paying retail is worth it.

I also figured out rather quickly that the most important word in the English language is 'no.' Last time around, I had pre-approved financing, I knew exactly what car I wanted, and the whole car buying thing should have taken half an hour from start to finish, right? Well, I still had to sit through all the spiels about special paint coatings, undercoatings, service contracts, extended warranties, the works. Best to just not listen to them; go to your special happy place inside your mind as if you were getting your teeth drilled, or chewed out by your boss, or whatever unpleasant thing you want to blot out. Then say no. I wanted to ask they guy if he thought a Honda Accord was such an unreliable and poorly manufactured car that it needed all that extra 'protection', but I just said no.

The guy was lucky I threw the customer survey in the trash when it appeared in my mailbox. I should have given Honda corporate a piece of my mind about these bozos, but I was too tired. Maybe next time I need a new car, I'll just drive out to the next city and try my luck there.

@HurtsSoGood: Uh, if you're demanding the car at MSRP, you are not getting a bargain. You are getting hosed. I've seen people get their cars at and sometimes even below invoice!

The best advice I ever got regarding buying a car.

1. Know beforehand what you want and what you're willing to pay for it.
2. Find a salesperson you like, tell them you're going to buy a car, probably today. This establishes you as a buyer.
3. Use as much of that salesperson's time as you possibly can. 4 hours minimum, asking questions about the car. Just keep them busy. If they've spent all day with you, they haven't had time to make other sales. They won't want you to walk.

I think the best way to circumvent the dealership altogether is to walk in with a check from your loan provider/credit union. That's what I did and it eliminated most of the hassle that comes with buying a car. The sales rep just about deflated when I showed him the check and pointed to the car that I wanted. Lovely memory, that.

I sold cars for a few months at a CarMax, and it was an enlightening experience. At least in our case, we literally didn't have a mechanism for dickering or sliding-scale stuff, although we still got taught about how it worked and I met one or two guys who'd worked in that kind of environment before. What I heard from them and from customers who'd been shopping at other dealerships was enough to turn me off car shopping forever. I still believe in the CarMax model, though. It's simple and it makes sense.

Also, there are a LOT of jerks out there shopping (or pretending to shop) for cars. We had one salesman demoing a GTO and the customer started doing doughnuts in a parking lot within sight of our store, and I got yanked around by more than a few people.

I'm a car salesman. My family has been selling cars for over 50 years. We're not crooked or deceptive. We do our best to make a profit though. Here's how to really avoid hassles and haggling. Go into a car store having done your homework. Know what you want. Know what you want to pay. Know what you want for your car. These three things will help you save the most time. If you have alternative plans for financing and getting rid of your trade. You can get in and out quickly and hassle free.

I was helping a friend go car shopping this past weekend and I did the negotiating for her. Sadly, we weren't able to get any of the dealers to come down in price to meet her budget. Around here, all the small fuel efficient cars are flying off the lots, and the dealers don't want to negotiate on those. My friend, of course, is only looking at those cars. I have a feeling she's going to keep looking for awhile... I just hope she finds a good deal eventually.

I bought my last Honda through Costco, who sent me to the fleet guy at the dealership. He showed me the prices and said go pick out a color.

The sales drone who finished up worked on me for financing - I used my credit union again, and all the protetorant crap I denied.

@Psychodad1961:

The salesman almost called off the deal when I told him at delivery to take it back in the shop and remove all the dealer badges (3 of them! WTF?) and their logo license plate frame unless they were going to pay me a monthly fee to advertise for them.

@A.W.E.S.O.M.-O: I doubt you are going to get that with in-demand foreign cars these days. But if you want to brave a ford or a dodge, it definitely shouldn't be that hard to work out a deal.

Anyone looking for a GREAT read? Here's "Confessions of a Car Salesman" LONG READ, but informative!
[www.edmunds.com]

Here's another about car buying/leasing tips that I use:
[www.carbuyingtips.com]

Take the time to read if you're in the market, I'm telling you... it's saved me many a times from making a mistake!

my father sells cars. He told me he could get me a military discount (since I'm in the service). I said "rather than the friends and family discount which is better?"

Car salesmen even try to rip off their own family. What a greasy way to earn a living.

@Git Em SteveDave has a new Lego set: It's against the law to intentionally write a check that you know is not good.

@A.W.E.S.O.M.-O: Well it depends on what kind of car you're getting--if it's a new generation that has just come out or a very popular car with limited production (say, the GT-R for example) then MSRP is usually the best that you can do.

If a dealer gives you an awesome deal for your trade-in, be wary. They're probably ripping you off in every other aspect of the deal.

I absolutely use #2, as I go to the lot ready to buy, having done all my research in advance. You will get the salesperson motivated to sell when you can say "I'm buying today" as it's a guaranteed commision for them.

I once bought my car where they even backdated the sale to a week earlier so I'd qualify for an additional rebate.

That is absolutely right! The MSRP is not the number you want to pay when it comes to buying a car. And it IS possible to buy below invoice due to a little thing called "dealer holdbacks", which is one way a dealer makes money off a car that just rolled into the lot from the factory. The only time the MSRP comes into play is when you are purchacing a vehicle that may be in high demand or short supply. If at all possible, when negotiating the price of a vehicle, always negociate AT or UP from the invoice price, not DOWN from the MSRP, you will most likely end up with a better deal. Other things to remember are: Factory rebates are like a gift to you from the factory, and can be added to your down payment and should be taken off the final total along with your down payment(most dealers will tell you that a factory rebate is subtracted off the MSRP and that is a LIE). The equation should go as follows, NEGOTIATED PRICE+TAXES+LICENCE AND OR TITLE FEES+DOCUMENT FEES=GRAND TOTAL, then, GRAND TOTAL-REBATE-CASH DOWN=FINANCE AMOUNT. Also, make sure your negotiated price shows up on the Sales Contract, because a shady salesman will try to slip in the MSRP price in its place, and once you sign the contract its game over. Always take your time and double check the salesmans math, because it is their job to make them and the dealership money, even if the salesman is a "family friend". And lastly, never take any extras from the dealer, this is just a way for them to add more to your finance total. This means that their "paint protection" that costs another $300 is usually nothing more than some cheap spray on wax that won't last more than a day. A good dealer will prep the car for you at no extra cost to the buyer. Remember also, you never want to walk into a dealer with any sort of arrogance that you know how to work these guys over, salesmen are trained to pick up on things like that and will screw you twice as hard an laugh about it with their salesman buddies after you leave. I know this because I used to sell cars, and I did not like what I had become, it got to the point that I probebly would have thrown my own Mother under a bus to make a sale.

@TangDrinker: Depending on the state, you need to consider the value of sales tax in the trade-in scenario. In my state, you only pay sales tax on the cash part of the transaction; if you sell your old car elsewhere for cash, you pay more sales tax on your new purchase.

No, no, no.

Bring with you a small notepad. Walk around the lot, looking at every car they show you. For each car that you don't like, write down a price that's significantly less than the asking price. For cars you do like, write down a price a few grand lower than what you are actually willing to pay. When the salesperson asks what you're doing, say, 'making notes about what I'm willing to pay for a given car'. Ask what's the best they can do on one of the cars you don't like. Whatever they tell you, simply move on. When they try and go back, simply be firm and say 'that's more than I am willing to pay for that car, so it's off the table'. Continue until on a car you like they give you a price you like. Go from there.

No one ever lasts more than the first few cars without insisting that they can do better on one of the cars. Simply say 'that's not how this works. I ask your best price and you give me your best price and then I make a decision.'

It's pretty effective.

It also makes for something fun to do when you just feel like making a used car salesman squirm.

@Rachacha: "my tastes do not match that of the typical American"

I found this phrase a bit strange. I'm genuinely curious to know which options and colours you specify that separate you from a typical American. Is your car lime green with beaded seats and a factory-installed 8-track tape player?

@verucalise:

I love that article.

@TotallyStumped:

I like your story - but I would've never given my phone number out. Maybe my spam email account I use for online shopping.

@TotallyStumped: That's a great story and some awesome advice. Thanks!

Know what you want, know how much you want to spend. Do as much research as you can on the internet before you ever step on a car lot. Secure a loan beforehand. If you have a trade don't mention it until you have made the deal on your new vehicle. Do not buy any add on's, rustproofing, fabric protector,etc, those are the biggest screw jobs on the lot & make the salesman lots of $$. You can do everything right & still get taken cause these guy's do this for a living but at least it gives you a fighting chance.