Pat won an auction for an RV on eBay last week. He bid a little over $15,000 for a vehicle that was listed for sale by the RV company for $29,999 on other sites. Pat was worried that Nelson’s RV might try to find a loophole to cancel the auction since he’d scored such a great deal, so he immediately sent his required $250 deposit to them and asked for someone at Nelson’s RV to contact him. Eventually, after some run around, he got the following email—with one of the ballsiest excuses we’ve ever seen.
We are devastated with our discovery this morning of a swarm of Africanized killer bees in the 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel that you have a deposit on. We have used multiple poisons in an attempt eradicate them. We have vacuumed up the bees that covered the floors, cabinets, and furniture. We tried to clean the traces of honey on the countertops and cabinet tops as completely as possible. This is one of the terrible acts of Mother Nature we have in Arizona. As best we can determine, the bees entered from the door that had been left opened yesterday morning. The interior of this trailer does have a strong chemical odor from the poison and is TOXIC. Our insurance regulations prohibit us from selling this 5th wheel at this time.
Due to these circumstances beyond our control, we are unable to proceed with the sale of this 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel. This vehicle is unsafe for occupancy or use. We are therefore refunding your deposit at this time. We have attached several photos. Watch EBay for other close-outs we will be posting soon.
Pat examined the photos, but they are very small (we’re posting them exactly as he sent them to us) so it’s kind of hard to tell if they’ve been manipulated.
Pat writes,
The two cans of “TOXIC” chemicals pictured in the second picture are indoor household foggers manufactured by Hot Shot and Ortho. Both were designed to be used, and are safe, for indoor use.
Within a few minutes of receiving the e-mail, I received another from PayPal indicating that my deposit had been refunded by Nelson RV.
My attorney advised me that he felt all the elements were in place for a contract and that even if their story were true, it should be my decision as to whether I wanted to accept the trailer in that condition. If a product that has been offered for sale does not turn out to be as advertised, then the buyer can decide to not go through with the sale. He told me that if I wanted it, I should send them an E-mail explaining my position and see how they respond.
So Pat resubmitted his $250 deposit and sent Nelson RV the following email:
After discussions with my attorney today and reviewing material safety data sheets of both the Ortho and Hot Shot brand indoor foggers that you used, I have decided that I will still take the 5th wheel. Thank you for disclosing the unfortunate event.
I would like to send a local representative to your dealership to inspect the unit as my agent. I would also like to resubmit the necessary deposit as required in our contract.
Please call me to arrange a time for closing as I intend on traveling to Arizona to pick up the Sandpiper within the next week.
This seemed to push Nelson RV to the breaking point, because they dropped the killer bees story and have turned to a new tactic, saying Pat was mistaken and never bought a trailer from them, and in fact there is no trailer anymore, so quit bothering them.
I received a call from Jim Nelson. Jim said that he understood that I “think” I have bought a trailer from Nelson RV and that it was just EBay and Bee’s nonsense that I was talking to James Nelson about.[Editor: What?] But that he had the owner there, Angelita Nelson, and that he was going to put her on the phone.
Angelita got on the phone and said “You did not buy a trailer from us and to quit calling and e-mailing us.” I Responded that the trailer was offered to the highest bidder in an auction, and that I was the highest bidder. Therefore I believe we have a contract for the sale. Angelina replied forcefully, “There is no contract! And we don’t even have the trailer anymore.” I responded by saying, that is not what the e-mails I have from you say, and I hope you still have the trailer because we have a deal. She then said in a very angry tone, “We do not have a deal! And we will not allow you to swindle us out of $15,000.” At which point the phone went dead.
Pat sent one more email to the Nelsons—Jim, James, and Angelina—in which he tried to educate them on how eBay works, and urged them to seek legal counsel so that they’d understand their obligation to fulfill the contract. As of Thursday July 24th, they haven’t responded and Pat hasn’t received a refund on his second deposit.
The Nelsons have indicated to him that someone will get back to him today, July 25th. Unless, of course, Africanized killer bees infest their computer and render it unusable. Once killer honey gets all up in your motherboard, you can forget about it.
(Photos: Bee, aussiegall; RV, Beige Alert; Honey Bears, buskuit)
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I talked to James Nelson 45 minutes ago. He followed up with this e-mail:
Dear Mr. Lewis,
As per our conversation this afternoon, I James L. Nelson II of Nelson RV will transfer the 2007 Sandpiper 325RG 5th wheel to you in accordance with your bid on EBay. As agreed, you may have your representative inspect the vehicle before the transfer.
Thank you for your patience,
James L. Nelson II
Nelson RV
It looks like James is going to do the right thing. I called the news reporter to give the update. I say it isn’t over until it is over, but it sure looks like things are going the correct way now.
Thank you all who gave me good advice. I sure am glad I didn’t have to involve an attorney.
Score one for the consumer!!!!
Lets here it for Pat!!!!!!
Sounds like his 4 lawyers told him what was up.
@ZaerApollo: Too bad the comments have to be approved first… Here’s what I left:
EntryNo: 2
Date of entry: Friday
11:48 AM
07.25.2008
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.1) Gecko/2008070208 Firefox/3.0.1 24.21.65.60 (c-24-21-65-60.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Billy Mitchell
I would like an RV filled with killer Africanized honeybees which I understand you deal in. Please post information on those models that you have available that include the free honey. Thanks.
@pat.idaho: That’s great! I’m glad that it turned out for the better. I’d still ask him about the bees though to see if they really did leave a mess.
You know, in case it’s true.
If it is, you can re-coup the cost of the RV by going around the states offering a walk-in bee-hive. It will give the guy with the beard of bees a run for his money.
@belden: You realize that the selling price is not the dealer’s cost, right?
Let me pose this comparison. OP buys RV for $30k. Dealer’s actual cost is $15k. OP enters into legally binding contract to purchase said RV with the Dealer and pays his deposit. OP finds another Dealer willing to sell same RV for their cost $15k.
OP realizes the first deal he agreed to is really not a good deal for him (but certainly is for the first Dealer) and backs out of the sale saying Africanized honeybees infested his house and he can’t possible buy an RV now. When pressed by the first Dealer to honor the legally binding contract OP says it was noly ebay and there is no way he’s going to get “ripped off” for $15k.
Would you believe it is justifiable for the OP to walk away from the deal? If so why? And if yes, do you believe in any portions of contract law?
@pat.idaho: I’m glad things sound like they will work out. I think in 75% of the cases that buyer would have just “went away”, but I’m glad the seller is going to do what is right.
Of course you should not push your luck, but if you go and pick it up, I dare you to ask where your honey is…. or go and pick it up with a bee-mask on.
Anyway, hopefully the seller understands how quickly “bad” service has spread and will continue to do what is right with the rest of the transaction. (and of course you do the right thing and make sure the places like this that have the negative story is told the positive response of the situation.)
pat.idaho
Hurray for Pat!
Let’s do this again folks!
@MercuryPDX: I have to disagree. I have taken the opportunity provided by commentators to contact businesses in legitimate and constructive ways.
Yeah, they were wrong. i emailed them railing that they should have honored the ebay contract and they wouldn’t find themselves being chased by consumerists with pitchforks and fire.
@D-Bo: This argument has been beaten to death and you’re late. We would have the same hatred, except for the OP.
He agreed to the contract and told the dealer what he was willing to pay for the RV.
Hooray for Pat!!! Way to stand up for what is right and fair!!
BOOOOOOOOOOO!!! bobosgirl. You agreed to sell those candles to me and I will not be fooled by your story about the hubby burning them. You will be hearing from my lawyer and the media. I will release the power of the internets. I have been inspired by Pat and will not fail!!!
Dear Bank of America Customer:
Due to an infestation of Africanized Killer Bees, your interest rate will now be 299%. If you disagree with this, please reply and reject these changes. If you use your BoA CC to purchase insecticide, the default rate of 299% will apply to your currnet balance and future charges.
Thank you for being a loyal bee-free customer!
Hooray for the savvy readers of the Consumerist ( and a hip hip to Ben for his skills) and a hearty “congrats!” to Pat on his newly won ( and LEGALLY bid on) RV!!!Hope you have many happy days motoring in it.@pat.idaho:
Okay, I’m supposed to be studying, and you keep making me chuckle and now I’m distracted…..maybe I’ll go on Ebay and list some more candles@Grabraham:
@linus: Linus, you need to read the portion of my post that indicates I was replying to a specific commenter. It might be difficult to find so look for the “@” symbol and the name of another commenter in red that precedes my statement. Seriously, you sound like a douche when you reply half assed to someone who agrees with you. And last time I checked there wasn’t an expiration date on the conversation.
Pat, one other thing.. go over that RV with a fine tooth comb BEFORE you take it off the lot. Bring some sort of inspector with you if you have to. I would not be surprised at all if someone tried to take their revenge on you in some way. That, or take it straight from that particular dealer to another authorized dealer who can honor whatever warranty it comes with for a thorough inspection. Or both.
Interestingly, they still haven’t taken the listing down on rvtraderonline.com…hope they don’t try yet again to pull a fast one!
I suppose they could have forgotten, but they clearly need watching.
Congratulations Pat on winning your RV. Just think of the story you will be able to tell at the campfires in the future.
damn i just read this and its resolved (go pat!)…. i wanted to inquire in Spanish about the killer bees (my favorite kind of bee) and if they harmed any members of the wu tang clan killah bees than there will be hell to pay.
@pat.idaho: Great news! You know it never hurts to sweeten the deal, though- I’d give them a nice jar of honey, too.
I know someone who works at ebay. I’m forwarding the story to them.
There is this undated, unrelated (except for the attack of killer bees) story from the area.
[www.kvoa.com]
Summary: A bunch of people stung – the bee nest was located in an abandoned car behind a vacant house. Firemen removed this one by injecting the car with foam which quickly killed the bees.
More news about Africanized killer bees and honey problems in the area…
[www.kvoa.com]
@tawni:
did you happen to see if the story aired at 6 on KVOA last night?
@pat.idaho: Congratulations Pat. Congratulations, team. Job well done. Looking forward to a pic of Pat beside the RV someday.
I would imagine that the dealer has pretty much done themselves in by going the “bee” route. The auction completed, they could have stopped it at any time before it was done.
If I was the buyer I would defintely be looking to suit to obtain the rv at the price that was agreed upon in the auction or file for damages. Seller had multiple options available to them to prevent them losing money, mininum starting bids, reserve, stopping the auction before it completes etc.
I would imagine that most civil courts would side with the buyer
After all this publicity, anyone want to bet how long it will be before either the RV dealership is sold or closes?
I would not consider dealing with the curren ownership there now, as they do not seem to have the business ethics that I would require. They only did the right thing after being faced with massive unfavorable publicity!
@tortcat: Tortcat- Did you miss the part where the OP posted that the RV dealer agreed to sell the trailer to him at the $15K price? This whole thing is, for the most part resolved, pending the pick up of the hopefully undamaged trailer.
I think a DOC complaint may have more teeth to it than a lawsuit. Both is always an option but for the value of the item you have to sue in regular court and there is a reasonable chance that breach of contract suit will only net you the deposit back. The court has the option to restore things to the way they were before the breach occurred and often does so. File a complaint with the DOC first and the business may face losing it’s business license.
Does anyone know if the news story ever aired, and if so is there a link? I would LOVE to see the owners tell their side of the story.
Way to go Pat, I’ve been following this in the Open Roads forum. Score one for the “little guy”.
Hooray Pat! The internets are buzzing with your success story! Its always nice when evildoers feel the sting of justice!
Seriously, you need to paint a giant bee on the side of the RV. And send us a picture
PS: BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
It’s hard to predict how much actual damage the Nelson’s have done to their business. The clear, blatant and insulting lie about “killer bees” gives me a strong feeling of general dishonor surrounding the entire enterprise. I have bought 3 RV’s in my life, and would certainly never do business with them. To me, they just come across as the sort of arrogant and unprincipled business people who make it so hard for any business to be thought of as honest. It’s OK to make a mistake. It’s not OK to fabricate a second grade, Cosbyesque story to try to weasel out of it. Their final action is correct, but far too late to reverse the damage that has been done to their repuation. That will take years.
You know, I’ve gotten hosed on many a casual deal with people, and I still hold up my end of said deal. It’s the right thing to do, and while to do otherwise is understandable, it’s not what I would advise.
got a reply from ebay. I wish I could post it here. :/ they are investigating the incident, and that’s all I can say about it. The rest just becomes ebay jargon.
Well I’m glad things worked out for Pat thus far. I agree, get it thoroughly checked out.
As for the dealer. I’m sorry things didn’t go well in your auction. Hopefully in the future this teaches you not to renege on contracts and to set a minimum reserve.
The NBC KVOA News 4 video segment on this EBAY Auction and Nelson RV can be
found here
!
You can view the NBC KVOA News 4 video segment on this EBAY auction and
Nelson RV in Tucson, AZ here: *http://tinyurl.com/kvoa-news-4*
I know that this is resolved (Go Pat!) but just wanted to post the link to the news story:
[www.kvoa.com]
Chalk up yet another win for the internets!
Apparently Africanized killer bees and their honey have posed problems for others in the area as well.
[www.kvoa.com]
@belden:
It would be sad if they had been honest about their own problems. For example:
- We are a family business and this would really hurt us.
- We made a mistake.
- We will go out of business and we’re sorry etc.
etc.
etc.
Allegedly this didn’t happen. Had they been upfront, instead of lying I think (or at least hope) any normal person wouldn’t ask them for their firstborns.
But, having (at the very least) exaggerated the bee problem then accused the bidder of being a “swindler” himself (lost plenty on low ebay auctions I was selling here… no hard feelings) they lost their right to be dealt with like a human.
I realise my own predisposition to these cases is manic. But it’s tit for tat. Be nice/friendly/helpful first (ALWAYS), if they combat, you combat (but in a nice, friendly manner). End of story.
The OP might atually want it to be in regular court and NOT small claims. The amount is likely too high anyway. But in a lot of states you cannot use an attorney for small claims court. Sounds like he needs his attorney to go to bat.
Disclaimer: I am not your attorney. This post does not creat an attorney client relationship.
Their website is not working. I guess the sleazy liars who backed out of a legitimate deal couldn’t handle the comments! Shame on you, Nelsons! Is this what you teach your children?
Yesterday, my agent met with James Nelson and did a full inspection. It was reported that the trailer is in excellent new condition and that Mr. Nelson was very nice and helpful. I have had numerous conversations with Mr. Nelson over the last couple days. He seems very sincere about doing the right thing. I will be picking up the trailer next Saturday. (I am traveling on business, and could not pick it up any earlier)
I am reluctant to make many comments one way or the other until the transaction is completed. I will give a full and honest update at that point. I know that many are very interested in this story and many have tried to help me. I feel I owe it to everyone to give them the conclusion. I also, feel that everyone needs to know how Nelson RV treats me from here on out.
Regardless of what has transpired. I am not without empathy for Nelson RV. I am also not the type of person who never forgives. Perhaps they feel they have no choice but to honor the deal. I don’t know. But if that is the case, then they would not have any reason to treat me with respect and go out of their way to give good service and act in a professional manner. That is exactly what they are doing so far. I am moving forward with guarded optimism. I will let you all know how it turns out.
I am going to start using the killer bees excuse EVERYWHERE. “Sorry, I’m going to be late to work today – killer bees in the engine block. Again.” This rocks.
As far as lawyers go, if the OP purchases the same RV elsewhere, he could seek reimbursement for the differencein price.
I thought if you sold something and didn’t like the final result you just told the buyer, “I’m not sending it to you. Here’s your money back. Give me bad feedback.”
???
Amazing.
@temporaryscars:
hilarious. Maybe “scummiest small business on earth” contest.
I have a lot to report, so I will split this into two comments. This one will be about picking up the RV and the next one will be about everything I couldn’t or wouldn’t say until now.
After three days of driving (31 total driving hours) and about $700 in diesel, my wife and I just returned from Tucson with the Sandpiper. It is an awesome new 36 foot trailer. We absolutely love it.
Everything went smoothly, albeit a bit awkward, at Nelson RV. James had the unit ready and waiting out back. It was plugged in and had full water and propane tanks. It had a new battery installed and the A/C was running. (which was great because outside temperature was well over 100) An employee named Dale gave my wife and I the PDI. Even though he was fully aware of the underlying circumstances, he was very helpful and nice to us. He was also very knowledgeable about RV’s. Even though he certainly didn’t have to; once he learned that we were completely new to RV’s, he gave us many useful tips outside the scope of the PDI. He certainly saved us many mistakes in the future.
The trailer itself is, well….new. Obviously it is in great condition. No odor was noticeable, besides the smell of “new”. (Which isn’t a bad smell, if you ask me) I was taken aback by the size of the trailer. It is long and very tall. With the 16′ slide extended and the other slide in the bedroom that makes room to walk around the king size bed, it is surprisingly spacious inside. My wife and I had a terrible time maintaining our composure. We were naturally excited and delighted with the trailer, but felt we needed to subdue our enthusiasm given the circumstances. Let me tell you, it was hard. Every time Dale showed us another feature, we were amazed.
We never met Jim or Angelita, but James did the closing paperwork with us. Again, it was handled very professionally. Everything went smooth and there were no surprises. This whole thing got off to a bad start, but to their credit, Nelson RV finished strong. We were very surprised that we never got one sideways glance or flippant remark. They obviously didn’t want to sell the trailer to us at the auction price, but we sure couldn’t tell it that day. They couldn’t be any nicer. I don’t know if it is customary to deliver the RV with both LP tanks full and a brand new battery, but they did. They also mounted my SuperGlide Capture plate for free too. We couldn’t ask for anything more.
We didn’t ask James a lot of questions about the transaction. I mean, what would be the point. All I wanted was for them to sell me the trailer, and they did. James did mention that he has been reading this thread and all the comments. He says that he and his family have been very stressed from this whole thing and that he hopes that now it can all be put to rest. He played a message on his answering machine that one reader had left that day before we had arrived. It wasn’t very pleasant, but according to James, it wasn’t as bad as some. He is hoping that the messages and e-mails will stop now that they have done the right thing. I for one will let the matter rest. It is over now. I have never asked anyone to call them, e-mail them, alert the authorities or the press, or re-post this story on the internet. I realize that because people took it upon themselves to do these things, I now have my trailer. I am very thankful to all of you. However, after meeting the man and seeing him face-to-face, I can tell you all, he has had enough. He got the point and did the right thing.
Before we left James told me something that, through this whole ordeal, no one from Nelson RV had told me. He said that when he listed the trailer on E-bay, he thought the Buy it Now price would serve as the reserve price. He said that it was just a simple mistake in the way he listed it. Now, I honestly don’t know if that is true or not, but I will concede that James probably sees the E-Bay auction a mistake one way or the other. That was one of the last things James said to us before we said goodbye. Tomorrow, in my last post, I will tell you why it should have been the first.
[i526.photobucket.com]
[i526.photobucket.com]