How do you define a scam? Does your definition include anything where you have to put down money upfront in order to get discounts later? Maybe it should. Meet Stephen and Jean Liang of Kansas City, Missouri. They went to a presentation for a travel club, and ended up joining for $7,500– with the condition that they could cancel after 3 days. Before they left, they were offered a discount for Red Lobster. They thought it was a bonus for joining the club. It wasn’t.
From CNN:
During the presentation, Stephen and Jean were told they could get discounted condo rates and other travel benefits around the world. They decided to join — for $7,500. Jean said they were assured they could cancel within three days.
Before Stephen and Jean even left, they were offered a discount coupon for Red Lobster.
“We really enjoy Red Lobster,” Jean said. “We thought it was a bonus for joining.”
They were asked to sign a piece of paper after they received the card. The Liangs didn’t think much about it.
“We thought we needed to sign it to show we’d gotten the card,” Jean said.
But, unfortunately, Stephen and Jean didn’t realize that by accepting the Red Lobster card, they had used the services of the travel club. And by signing that piece of paper, they were waiving their right to cancel their membership.
But the couple soon found out the next day when they tried to cancel.
Jean said they felt deceived. “This is really, really wrong. A person’s word is what they are.” The couple found out the hard way that it doesn’t always work that way.
The BBB warns consumers that they receive lots of complaints about these travel clubs. Here’s what they have to say about them:
“Vacation clubs, special travel agent training and bargain-finder software, often aren’t good deals because initial costs are rarely recouped by any future savings on travel costs since the bargains and special deals don’t really exist as portrayed in the sales pitches,” said the BBB’s spokesperson. “Consumers need to be very wary of travel club offers and research the companies extensively before committing any money or giving out credit card or bank account information.”
It’s better to save your pennies than bet them on a deal that may never come.
Watch out for the ‘free’ stuff [CNN] (Thanks, prameta1!)
(Photo: danesparza )
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I spend $7500 and get a coupon to Red lobster??? How about I cancel right now because you offered me a coupon to Red Lobster.
I still don’t understand why people buy timeshares…Serves them right though..they seem like old penny pinchers who come to hear the pitch just for the free stuff.
Never buy Timeshares. Are people that dense? Even that episode South Park was a public service announcement, because they are friggin’ inescapable.
This is what happens to lazy and greedy people. Why would sign ANYTHING without reading it? It might be a scam, but it relies on gullible idiots to make it work. Sadly, some countries are easier to find them than others.
People, I don’t think they had $7500 to “toss around”. The $7500 wasn’t due at the time they signed up for everything, and by the way I read it, they only signed up because they were “assured they could cancel within 3 days”, which meant they had intention of canceling from the start. The sales people at these things are very pushy. Chances are, you didn’t even want to listen to some pitch to get a free whatever but was talked into it by a pushy salesman. That’s the equation for the salesman; find a customer that caves to pressure.
Folks, read the comment code. Helpful comments towards the victim or cautionary tales are fine – calling the victim names (e.g. lazy, stupid, greedy) or being nasty is not fine. From here on out, please abide by the comment code in your responses.
@snoop-blog: I understand pushy salesmen. I was at Bloomingdale’s, just looking ffs. Sales guy would not get off my ass, after multiple times of me telling him to fuck off (in tone, not literally). I ended up buying the shirt to end the cross-departmental haranguing and returned the polo shirt the next week. But then again, in my case, the worst case maybe I can’t return it and I’d be out ~$60 for something that I could actually use-a nice shirt
@bohemian: “This reminds me of that home improvement club they are always advertising on home improvement channels. Something direct?”
Direct Buy. Avoid. You pay thousands a year to join a club that lets you order overpriced merchandise from a catalog. Try Costco, BJ’s, or Sam’s club instead.
“This is really, really wrong. A person’s word is what they are.”
And many people are liars.
Consumerist is getting a bit behind apparently and is missing some things:
When will there be a post about “Mona-Vie”??
I have a friend who has just gotten scammed into this and wanted me to get into it. The two shysters from Quixtar and Amway are involved in it. This bottle of pure BS is supposed to cure everything from depression to arthritis.
The cost?
40$ a bottle and this crap autoships in 4 bottle incriments to ‘keep you current’ in the program… Who has 140$ for fruit juice? This thing reeks of scumm scammyness.
Any chance of cunsumerist posting something on this?
Hopefully this doesn’t run afoul of the code, but it’s been bugging me for a while.
Whenever we see an article about how someone got scammed, way too many people pipe up and try to show how clever they are by ragging on whoever it was that got scammed. We get it, you’re super brains who think you know every possible way to get conned and you clearly don’t need to be reading the consumerist. You can now go on and live happy, scam free lives because you’re way too smart to ever get taken advantage of by someone.
Sheesh.
Without knowing, EXACTLY what the people signed (and what laws apply to legal documents in their area) it’s impossible to know that they didn’t sign a large lined sheet (like a sign in sheet or petition form) that only obliquely referred to some other document that explicitly waived the cancellation option. That’s a known trick that petitioners use (walk up to someone ask them to sign a petition on one thing and then have them sign a petition that is for something else entirely). I don’t know if that would be valid to waive a cancellation option clause in a contract, but I wouldn’t be shocked if it could (in some areas).
That’s often one of the important things to consider about a lot of “deals” where are these businesses chartered? That can even be of interest for credit cards and loans. In what state (or country) is the legal entity incorporated? Ultimately the thing to remember is that scam artists, banks, credit card companies, Wal-Mart, they all have large teams of lawyers looking out solely for their interests and consumers have to be wary and in places like the consumerist, share their experiences.
Instead of trying to point out how stupid these people were, look at how the company wrote up a contract that said one thing and then at the last minute got people to sign an amendment that dramatically affected their rights. I like to think that I’m pretty savy, but I wouldn’t have through anyone would try something THAT sleazy and honestly I’m curious to know more about how they did it. It’s easy to think that we won’t fall for something when we see it coming, but if we should take away anything from these stories, it’s that a lot of times you don’t see it coming and all you can do is be on the look out for warning signs.
@dragonvpm: Your post is fine. Actually, it’s exactly the spirit of the ‘don’t blame the victim’ rule – there are folks who, historically, have jumped all over everyone, and placed blame on everyone but the business that took advantage of them.
Essentially, it’s okay to point out alternative routes of action, cautions to other readers, suggestions, advice, and so on. It should be constructive. We’d like to tone down the level of smug superiority and name-calling that scam posts have attracted; it’s not necessary, not helpful, and is ultimately disruptive.
Don’t ever assume that the money is lost until you have talked to a lawyer.
Smells like a deliberate attempt to fraudulently misrepresent the contract terms. They were given an assertion they could cancel within three days, why does the coupon take priority over the statement? Answer: it does not necessarily take priority.
Unless they gave them $7500 at the presentation, there’s a simple remedy – DON’T PAY IT.
What are the scammers going to do – sue them? Any judge would laugh them out of court and invalidate the adhesion contract.
This is how we learn, folks. It was nice of them to bring it to others’ attention, so others will make better decisions in the future. You know they will.
I stayed for 5 days at a five-star resort in Hawaii one time very cheap in exchange for going to their timeshare presentation. Afterwards I told them if they ran my credit they would see I couldn’t afford it even if I wanted it. They just said OK thanks bye and that was it.
After they retired my grandparents made a hobby of going to timeshare presentations for the free “$5000 or a big screen TV*” (*or other gift). They were ultratightwads and would have never bought anything anyway. They ended up with a pile of ceiling fans, portable black/white TVs, tire inflaters, chinese-made tool sets and all kinds of other cheap crap.
My wife and I went to a few of those presentations– for entertainment if nothing else– when they piled on us after registering as fiancees. The thing that I always find funny about these sales presentation people is once you start shooting down their initial offers, they start throwing out offers that go beyond lesser deals with a lower price tag, into offers that are just insulting.
By the end it’s “Okay, instead of 14 days of unrestricted use, you get two days, with blackout dates. The partner benefits are limited, and we don’t waive any surcharges. However, that does only put you at $600 a year, which is within your budget. How about it?”
I knew someone in Florida who also loved going to timeshare sales presentations – he had a lot of fun jerking the salespeople around. Would let them go on and on and sound interested, then suddenly just collect whatever they were giving away and walk away. Not my idea of fun and I don’t need any more junk than I already have. I know that most of us feel we’re way too saavy to fall for this kind of stuff, but these salespeople are really really good at what they do. That being said, we all must read before signing anything – no if’s, and’s or but’s.
If they put it on a credit card, seriously, this is the time for a chargeback.
I like Red Lobster, but not THAT much!
Wait a minute. You people are actually saying you would’nt fall for this scam? Did you read the article or not? It clearly said “DISCOUNT COUPON FOR RED LOBSTER” was offered. How can you pass up a deal like THAT??
@vdragonmpc: Sorry about your friend. Amway and “Quikscar” are now being advertised on prime time TV.
@snoop-blog: Wise words my friend. My folks almost got scammed a few years ago. We drove out to Canyon Lake, TX after getting a postcard saying a free mustang was waiting for us. I pressured my folks into going. We drove there and found a double wide trailer and were met by a kindly old gentleman. He showed us the time shares including the model unit. It seemed nice. However when he drove us back to the double wide it was a different story. The whole place was a pressure cooker, boiler room type room with multiple tables all around with couples all being pitched by salespeople. My folks and I sat down and my mom was being lured into the whole time share deal. My dad got pissed and left. I sat a while and decided to follow him to the car. My dad was angry so I sat in the back seat biting my nails. I waited a few minutes then went back into the boiler room and found my mom being turned into the proverbial road kill while THREE salesman all sat around showing her the papers to sign. My mom was nervous and when I tried to tap her shoulder to tell her something one of the salesmen gave me this annoyed look and said “hey your mom is busy” or something to that effect. I went out to the car and told my dad. He jumped out of the car and stormed into the building. I sat in the backseat and waited. About 5 minutes passed ’till my dad emerged from the building. He had this look of calm on his face, kind of like he just had a 3LB. bowel movement. Well, turns out this was’nt far from the truth. My dad entered the car and started it up. I turned around to see my mom being escorted out of the building by the so called “nice old man” and his buddies. Her face red and streaming with tears. She got into the car and began crying and yelling at my dad…demanding a divorce, etc. etc. I found out later the next day that my dad launched into the boiler room like the tazmanian devil. A polish jackhammer of rage riproaring and shouting at EVERYONE. He screamed at the salesmen, called them a bunch of “fucking thieves” and whatever else he could think of. Apparently he walked over right when they finally pressured my mom to sign over a check for a 750.00 downpayment. To this day my parents don’t talk about it. They are still married. I still hold myself somewhat responsible for getting them out there in the first place. My parents were familiar with different types of scams but this one caught them off guard including myself. I was just a kid yet I should have known when something sounds too good to be true: I usually is.
@dragonvpm: No, I think you’re being too generous to the victim. It’s not about legal loopholes or local laws, they clearly that state that they simply ‘thought’ a document was something else:
‘They were asked to sign a piece of paper after they received the card. The Liangs didn’t think much about it.
“We thought we needed to sign it to show we’d gotten the card,” Jean said.’
That doesn’t sound like the words of someone who’s had a good read at what they’re signing, does it?
To the Mod: Why aren’t people allowed to express opinions on these stories anymore? Are you saying that we should only be sympathetic and feel bad for people or not post anything? I think by not reading something completely, it’s laziness. I think by signing something simply to get a coupon for some food, is greedy. It wasn’t a baseless accusation, it’s my opinion.
I refuse to blame the consumer here just because we wouldn’t fall victim.
They always put an artificial sense of urgency. Sign now or never… If you don’t sign that’s the end, but if you DO sign, you get a 3 day right to cancel..
@shufflemoomin: Do you know anything more about what happened there? You THINK things worked out one way, I’m saying I want to know more because I had never heard of someone giving you something to sign that said one thing (i.e. 3 day cancellation option) and then had ANOTHER thing to sign that negated the first thing. That just has the feel of an orchestrated scam and I’d want to know more about what happened.
IMO the fact that the 2nd paper was presented AFTER the coupon was presented and to our knowledge it wasn’t explained as a waiver for the cancellation period option makes it seem questionable.
“We thought we needed to sign it to show we’d gotten the card,” Jean said.’
That doesn’t sound like the words of someone who’s had a good read at what they’re signing, does it?
As I said earlier, I don’t know WHAT they signed (and neither do you). They state that they thought it was one thing which it obviously wasn’t, so I’d be interested to know what it was.
Ultimately we don’t know what happened, but I’m more likely to sympathize with someone who got scammed than with the asshole who scammed them, even if it’s something I could see through instantly. PLUS since I have older parents I’d like to know more about these scams and how they prey on people so that I can help my folks keep an eye out for problems. They’re pretty clever, but they are also inclined to trust people so I do worry about people trying to scam them as they get older (but let’s face it, any of us can get scammed).
Is is possible to find out the actual name of the travel club business offering the travel club membership for seventy five hundred dollars? I was hoping to read specifics… and how much was the coupon for Red Lobster actually worth? We know the presentation was attended by Stephen and Jean Liang of Kansas City, Missouri. So, the name of the travel club is ____________. Thank you.
If the paper said nothing about “this is you waiving your right to cancel” then yes, it’s a scam. If they fell into signing their name on a piece of paper without reading it and it did say that, well. That would be one expensive lesson.
Not really following the people who seem to think that as long as a scam victim did not behave perfectly, then the scammers are morally free of blame, and in fact probably deserve props for good victim selection.
I’m a lawyer – I have intelligent, well-educated, careful friends who miss and/or misunderstand the fine print on contracts, and it’s not because they’re greedy or dumb; it’s because ‘fine print’ can be difficult to figure out when there’s NOT somebody trying to rip you off. Go over and look at the “credit cards are the devil” post here, where people are arguing that just because your credit card company says it can do anything it wants to you, heck, you shouldn’t be afraid that it WILL, because they usually behave.
I can’t imagine a circumstance where spending a lot to save some money would make any sense to me.
So while I think that companies/salespeople who do these kinds of
scammy presentations & hoodwink people into signing away their
rights by dangling a carrot… are, well, unethical… And should be
illegal if they’re using deceit…
I still find it very difficult to feel sorry for people who fall for this sort of thing.
They went in, and signed up, and thought they could get all these free
perks or gifts or whatever, with every intention of cancelling.
It’s the sort of thing that makes the old saying “You can’t cheat an honest person” sound spot on.
It’s like that membership company I heard about a year or 2 ago that
offered deep discounts on upscale pricey home building/decorating
goods. Immediately when I heard about it – I knew it had to be a scam,
or scam-ish. Or just not worth it. Or something fishy was going on at
the very least.
They hook in people who want to build & decorate beyond their
means. They appeal to vanity by offering steep discounts on uppity
products & materials that the people interested realize they could
never afford normally. So then the people shell out a few thousand
dollars… only to find out, they shouldn’t have spent those few
thousand dollars, never mind that they can’t afford the high flying
materials & products… even at a reasonable discount. The company
makes money either way.
There’s plenty of easy pickins for con artists, perpetrators of
fraud, and just garden variety less than ethical slick salesmen who
know that greed, envy, and pride are huge weaknesses in many people.
The American Dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness has
been extended to include the usually unrealistic goal of living like
wealthy inherited counts & dukes of old times. Middle management
spreadsheet jugglers seem to think they’re akin to feudal lords just
because their job gives them the responsiblity to organize some
employees. Surely they deseve a gated estate & the finest carriage.
It should be needless to say that these people have drawbridges that
don’t reach all the way across the moat. But in a culture that often
applauds insane & irrational goals, it’s almost considered normal
to want what’s too good to be true.
Best to realize that you probably won’t ever get near all you think
you deserve. And more people should just be grateful that they’re not
getting what other people think they deserve!
@synergy: It sounds like the contract said something like “you can cancel within 72 hours as long as you don’t use any of the products/services of the travel club”. The coupon for red lobster is considered a product of the travel club, i.e. the club provides the discount coupon as a service to its members. So they accepted the coupon, and therefore couldn’t use the escape clause.
In that case, it is very possible that the second thing they signed just said something like “we received the coupon”. It would be reasonable for them to sign it if the sales guy was like “oh, you have to sign this so I can prove that I gave it to you instead of pocketing it myself”. Also, if the travel club talked about, well, travel the entire time, they would have no reason to think that a coupon for red lobster would be considered one of its “services”.
Now, I still think it is questionable to sign up for something and accept the free gifts with no intention of staying in the club, but it is entirely plausible that reading the fine print would not have helped them here, either.
Yeah, it’s shady and it sucks. But if he’d read what he was signing, he wouldn’t be having this problem.
Actually, he might still be having this problem.