Johanna deposited a financial aid check from her university into her Chase checking account. She’d done this before without incident, but this time something went wrong.
On Wednesday the 22st, I deposited a financial aid check from my university for $3,193.00. I had a balance of $33.03 in the account. I deposited through the bank’s ATM machine, and the slip told me there might be a hold on the check AFTER I’d already deposited, but it did make a small sum available to me in the meantime. I wasn’t happy with that, but there was nothing I could do, the ATM already had my check so I went home, resolved to spend as little as possible until the check went through.
The next day, the 22nd, I stopped by an ATM to check my balance, because I couldn’t remember how much the bank was allowing me to have until the hold could be removed from my deposit. It told me I had access to the full amount. Delighted, I took out the $300 I needed to pay my electric bill from the ATM and went on my way.
As the day progressed, I used my debit card for things like gas and lunch. All told, about 6 small transactions. Today, I made a large grocery list, thrilled to be able to eat something other than the student staple of ramen noodles I’d been enjoying for the last week, and headed out the door.
Surprisingly (or not) when I used my debit card today it didn’t go through. I went down the street to my neighborhood Chase branch and checked my available balance. I was NEGATIVE $390! My heart stopped, as I wondered what could have happened to all of my money. I went into the branch and asked to speak to someone regarding my account. I explained all of the above. They told me that the ATM receipt I had showing my balance was only showing my ledger balance and not my available balance, and that I should have known from my deposit slip that there was a hold on my deposit. Fair enough, I said, but that distinction isn’t made on my balance statement, and anyhow, why would your ATM dispense $300 to me if the funds weren’t there?
The rep (who wasn’t wearing a name tag) said “Oh, the ATM will forward you the money, if you’re willing to pay the fee”. And this is where I pretty much loose it “how would I know I was getting hit with a fee if the ATM didn’t tell me that? It just gave me the money! So the bank knew I didn’t have the funds, gave them to me anyway, then charged me an NSF fee without telling me. I can understand this sort of thing happening with a debit transaction, but this is your ATM!”
The rep tells me she agrees with me, so I ask her if she can take off the fee. She tells me she can’t do that, that the only way that fee is going to come off is if the bank determines after my deposit “goes through” that they made a mistake, then THEY will contact ME for a refund. Ha!! The worst part is, that because of this, I got hit with 6 NSF fees for that day. The first two transactions could have been covered by my old balance of $33.03 but since Chase has a policy of covering transactions by order of amount from greatest to smallest, that $33 went to pay their ATM’s NSF fee! Convenient, isn’t it?
I ask if there’s anything they can do to remove the hold on my check, since I’ve deposited checks from my school with them before. The rep tells me that’s not an option either, because I deposited into a new account, which is true. I’ve been a customer of Chase for 4 years and had both a checking and savings account with them already, but I opened a second account with them about 2 months ago. When I explain this, she tells me that it doesn’t matter how long I’ve been with them, that’s just policy for all new accounts. So I ask her how much longer before the hold comes off, and she tells me it won’t be for another 7 days! So not only have they stolen $200 of my money in mistaken NSF fees which they caused, but they also stole my last $33. I have a quarter tank of gas and nothing to live on for the next week, not to mention a lot of bills that need to be paid before the end of the month.
I’ve never had a problem with Chase before this, but it was so frustrating how they seemed to have an answer to everything and where completely able to deflect responsibility for their screw up. The final insult came as I walked away, when the rep hollers after me to “have a nice day!” I stopped in my tracks and turned around and yelled out “not likely lady!”.
I’m so angry. I can’t even see straight.
Johanna, we applaud you for not yelling “Go @$#@ yourself” at that sarcastic banker. You are obviously a very nice person who deserves better treatment than Chase is able to provide.
We think the best thing for Johanna to do is kick this issue up to the top. Launch an EECB (executive email carpet bomb) on Chase and ask that your fees be waived and your money released. Here’s some contact info to get you started. For more information about launching an EECB, click here.
(Photo: epicharmus )
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This happened to me with Bank of America on numerous occasions. I learned my lesson and switched to a small, local bank which then screwed me in the ass, so I ended up with a small regional bank (Sovereign) which has free checking and 8am to 8pm Mon-Sat hours, so I can talk to a real human being and know when my check will and won’t hit the account.
That said, it is a very painful lesson that a lot of us learn in college: use your ledger. The ATM is not accurate. It should be, but it isn’t. Period.
Get this once I went to deposit a check for 1400 and asked for a money order for 550. My account only had 400 in it. Anyways the teller takes my check and gives me a money order for 550. Then after she hands it to me she said, “by the way you’re overdrafted” which she couldn’t tell me before? Took almost 2 months for me to get back the 35 dollars they charged for it. My dad wrote two speerate letters to the head of 5/3rd and someone from the office called two months later and said it was taken care of.
If she would’ve told me before I would’ve been like “fine whatever” and just went and took it to a check cashing place because I’d rather give them my 35 dollars then those asses.
Yeah sorry, I haven’t done this before but it’s a blame the victim comment. Banking can be complicated but they are not going to risk you running off with a couple thousand dollars they might not be able to recover thus the holds. It sucks but you have to play by their rules they have at that moment and it’s not up to them to spell them out to you each time you make a deposit. I’m sure since the OP signed up for the new account two months prior there was materials provided to him that stated the terms of use of the account. I’ve been frustrated many times by the delays in deposits hitting the bank and checks clearing the bank at lightning speeds. Let it be a lesson learned to read the fine print and verify your balances thoroughly if you are unsure.
The only thing I find distasteful in this story is charging multiple NSF fees on a single day on multiple small transactions. This story is unclear as to how/why the OP thought her check had cleared. It doesn’t say the second time if the OP was using a Chase ATM, how it checked the balance, if it was a bank ATM or some standalone mall kiosk (can affect whether it gets real-time data) etc… etc…
On a side note, Chase branded ATMs shows me both available and current balance on screen and on the receipt in my area.
And finally, when/if banks ever clamp down to only give you access to money when you have it in your account, we would just get another set of people annoyed that they were denied access to “their” money.
the bank needs to warn, or at least supply easy access to the available balance for such situations. but they won’t do that, because why would they spare themselves the overdraft fee profits?
@kellsbells: Except the bank’s OWN ATM showed the funds AS AVAILABLE.
God damn, even when the customer does everything possible to do the right thing, idiots around here still say it’s their fault.
@Buran:
I’m waiting for the story where nobody can blame the consumer.
K-Mart is probably going to have to dump a truckload of human feces on a bus of mentally disabled children first. Even then, the school shouldn’t have been driving near a K-Mart.
@hegemonyhog:Isn’t that practically KMart’s business model? Granted, they charge for the human feces and call it “products”, but same difference.
@hegemonyhog: I’ve seen some where it’s practically impossible (this one is really close) and as you can see it happens anyway
Fuck the EECBs.
Contact the Attorney General’s office, and also sue them yourself separately.
Include not just the money they stole, but a bill for your time they stole as well. Actually, with that “have a great day comment” — tack on intentional infliction of emotional distress.
[en.wikipedia.org]
@Buran: The story did not specifically state if the balance was marked as available or current (ledger).
@DomZ: Every ATM receipt I’ve gotten says “available balance”. And a story of someone trying to show that they did exercise diligence and did everything possible would certainly have mentioned if there was any indication to the contrary, anyway.
People, lay off the victims who clearly don’t deserve it, already. How many more bitchslaps is it going to take from the site admins for the BS to stop?
Join a credit union and leave the big banks behind you.
They are not in business to serve the account holders;
they are in business to make money for the share holders.
Unless you own stock in Chase; get out; and I’d say the same
for all the other robber banks around … Bank of America, Wells Fargo,
Citibank … they are all the same. Policies are designed to
make sure you pay the most fees, not the least.
–
Jeff V.
Los Angeles CA
i totally understand how this could have happend. i bank at wells fargo and the only way i know what i have for a “pending balance” and an “available balance” is by looking at my account online. the atm says nothing. and my debit card will also continue to dispense “free” money up to a certain amount before they turn me off and start racking up major fees.
as for the “blame the victim” people…oh my god. if you were in a similar situation, or if you have been in one, i’m sure you probably would have done/did the same thing.
A similar thing happened to us with Wells and Fargo. Some transactions came in over a weekend we’d forgotten about, they were processed in some sort of haphazard order that gave W&F the greatest amount of fees…After a quick email, someone at W&F reversed a lot of the charges.
We did screw up what we thought we had left, and the bank reversed more fees than we thought they would (good for us!). Wasn’t too long later that the system was updated to show almost in real-time the pending incoming charges as well.
/meandered
“On Wednesday the 22st”
“The next day, the 22nd”
Oh, no! The story is already full of hole!
/almost
@NYGal81:
“It’s your responsibility, as a consumer, to know how your bank works.”
Actually, it should be the banks responsibility to inform their account holders how it works. We shouldn’t have to resort to trial and error to figure it out. All relevant information should be immediately available. For example:
“Johanna’s being able to take money out of an ATM without the funds available is not the bank’s fault–just like you can use a credit card beyond its stated limit, if you’re willing to pay “over the limit” fees.”
Would it not make sense for the ATM to at least inform you that you have insufficient funds, and that proceeding with the transaction will result in additional fees?
The fact that the ATM didn’t distinguish the difference between the ledger balance and available balance and charged these fees without her knowledge or confirmation puts the bank at fault, not Johanna’s. No amount of “she should have known better” or “well, *I* know better” will change that.
I would say that there are very real times when a credit card becomes handy, if you have a little self discipline. This would have been one of those times. She could have used a CC to cover her daily expenses until her check went through.
Most bank customers lack any means of determining the status of their accounts, other than to ask their bank. If someone makes a $3100 deposit, and the next day the bank tells them they have $3100 in the account, then they have no choice but to trust their bank. How would you go about asking your bank if they are in fact lying? If they were lying the first time you asked about your accounts, how do you know they’re not lying if you ask again? Why would you believe you should ask that in the first place?
Johanna deposited a check. Chase *told* her that the money was available when she asked, through the ATM, what her balance was. Chase told her something that was not true, and the circumstances surrounding the incident suggest it may have been intentional on their part, to generate fee-based profits (why else report the ledger balance but not the available balance on a printed ATM receipt?)
I’m not a lawyer, but to me, this sounds suspiciously like fraud on the part of the bank. Johanna acted in good faith throughout, and trusted that her bank would do the same in return. And because Chase did not act in good faith, Chase now claims Johanna owes them money. If I were Johanna, I’d be ready in case the EECB fails. to go directly to the regulatory agencies, if not a lawyer and a lawsuit. This sort of behavior by Chase shouldn’t be tolerated.
@xDimMaK:
The banks DO inform customers of how their fee structures work. I just opened a new bank account, and immediately got a package full of information about what I can expect from that bank in terms of fees, transactions, transaction limits, holds, etc. I happen to reference it when I have to make an “unusual” transaction–i.e. a transaction I don’t usually make. It’s called personal responsibility.
I fully agree that banks run some ridiculous fee policies on their customers. I’m not saying they’re totally in the clear on things, but if you sign up for the account, you do yourself a disservice to remain ignorant to the finer points of how your money is moving into and out of the account. It is, after all, your money. Shouldn’t you have a vested interest in making sure you know how it’s being handled?
I’m sure my comments are being lumped in the “blame the victim” category. Fine. Whatever. I have no problem with asking people to be a little more accountable/responsible etc., rather than copping to an ignorance plea. Maybe my standards a set a little too high…
Same thing has happened to me, kinda. I Deposited a studen loan check into my chase account and I understood it would be held. Well I also had to put in my Deposit check for an apt. I think it was a couple of days later when I put in the deposit. Well, I get a call from the Apt saying my check bounced. I thought, crap the check still hasn’t cleared, my own fault.
Well anyway the next day I check and the check finally went through. Also on my account online it said the money was in my account the day I deposited it. So I go an complain to the bank and have them check my account and get them to reverse the fees that Chase charged me. Then the fees of a MO as well as the fees from the Apt complex. It was simple and it looked in their system that the check went through and I had the money, but they bounced the check.
So maybe check your account online after the check goes through and check the date it is accepted. You may be able to get most, if not all fees reversed if it does the same.
One thing you have to realize about depositing through an ATM is that the bank also needs to protect themself. What if badguy deposits an empty envelope and enters $5,000 as the deposit amount. The ATM has no way of knowing how much the check was actually for, so, until a live person can verify the amount, you’re not getting the full amount of money.
I used to work the ATM at a bank and here’s how it works:
Wed: You deposit a check in the ATM.
That check sits there until the next day when the teller unloads it. (Thursday)
The check then sits in the bank all day until a courier comes to take the deposits to the bank’s HQ. (Possibly a half day if it’s a busy branch.)
The check is processed that night as though you deposited it on Thursday.
You have a “new” account, so let’s assume an optimistic 2-day hold on the check. (Generally 4 for new accounts.)
Friday is now day 1. (The first “Full” business day after processing the check.)
Saturday and Sunday aren’t business days, so they don’t count.
Monday is day 2.
By Tuesday morning, all of your money should be available.
I know it sucks, but all banks work like this. Although, I do agree that the ATM shouldn’t have given you the money if it wasn’t available, or it should have at least warned you repeatedly.
Good luck to you, but switching banks won’t do anything but maybe make you feel better.
- Jason
A friend is waiting on an IRA distribution as the beneficiary after a death. She has been a Chase customer for over 20 years (well, MBank, Bankone, then Chase) and probably won’t be much longer. A month is a long time when there are lots of estate expenses.
So she didn’t know how ATMs work. Yeah, strike one for the consumer. We get that everyone needs to be fully aware of what their responsibilities are. You can easily dodge a situation like this by being fully aware of what is happening with your money.
But in this case, the ATM was lying. Anyone who thinks it’s okay to write this off because “you shouldn’t trust an ATM” is missing the point. Who or what can you trust, then? Is there any infallible source that will fully inform you of what is happening? Even live tellers don’t have all the information.
What if you are being told by one source that your funds are available, and another says it’s not? With two or more sources of information playing against each other, the bank gets to dump all accountability on the customer. Whether Chase did this on purpose or on accident, or even if it’s just a technical limitation, this practice is despicable. In this respect, lying to the customer, no matter what the reason, is criminal. The consumer needs to be aware, but that’s simply not possible when faced with false information.
If the ATMs can’t be trusted, then either mark the ATM receipts stating that the funds shown may not be what’s available, or don’t show the balance at all. Stop lying to us and we’ll pay whatever fees you want.
@Buran: Even if it did say “available balance” its possible that a hold was placed the next morning by funds review for setting off the red flags I listed previously. I’m not trying to bash the consumer in the least. Its not the consumer’s fault nor the bank’s fault in this instance for the hold (the fees, totally Chase’s fault for not refunding them in good faith). It is the fault of the individuals that commit ATM deposit fraud which forces the institutions to be more careful regarding check deposits on new accounts. A few bad apples spoil it for the whole bunch.
Example: Person makes deposit with bad check, bank makes some of the funds available, person makes a deposit at another ATM, bank makes some of those funds available, repeat. By the end of day two the person has already beat the bank out of a considerable sum (whatever the calendar day ATM withdrawal limit is times two days). Do you at least understand WHY the check was put on hold now?
The consumer didn’t do anything wrong other than not being completely informed and the bank should return those fees and look closer into releasing the hold in the interest of retaining a long time customer.
Johanna deposited a check. Chase *told* her that the money was available when she asked, through the ATM, what her balance was.
im going to regret saying this…but there is no way that ATM gave her an available balance of $3,100. Sorry.
The system is designed to screw you. I had a similar problem with Bank of America. On several occasions I ended up with huge overdraft fees because a credit card transaction disappeared from my balance because the merchant hadn’t submitted it before it timed out. The result is you think you have more money than you do. Voila, overdraft fees galore. And because the larger transactions go through first, you get an overdraft fee for each tiny little purchase. They advertise small overdraft fees to lure you in but the catch is after the first one they jack up the overdraft fee to $30. I switched to a Credit Union which has a steady $14 overdraft fee no matter how many times it happens. I use to have an account with a Canadian bank when I lived in Canada. The balance was always correct at the ATM and never gave you money when you didn’t have any.
@NYGal81:
For something like an ATM transaction, you shouldn’t have to memorize the policies. It’s not unreasonable for there to be a confirmation screen informing you that your account has insufficient funds and that continuing with the transaction will result in additional fees.
And if the story is to be taken at face value, the ATM even informed her that she had a balance of $3100. It wasn’t irresponsible of her to act based on that [mis]information.
@MrGrimes:
Why is there no way the ATM told her she had a balance of $3100? Do you have anything to back up that claim, or are you just grasping at straws to find a way to blame the customer?
All the big major banks suck. Close your account and join a credit union. When they send you junk mail, save it up and mail to the CEO.
Anybody that gives a bank total control of their money is, to put it bluntly, an utter fool. It really is just as simple as that.
Keep your cash in your pocket (or in a tin can buried in your back yard, if need be) and you won’t ever have these kinds of problems.
A dollar bill in the hand is worth MORE than a million in the bank, IF you can’t access a single penny of that money when YOU need it.
This exact thing happened to me a few years ago at Bank of America. The only difference was that I had a bit of money in the bank.. probably 200-300 dollars. I deposited my financial aid check for 6000 dollars, and proceeded to pay off a Bank of America Credit Card balance to the tune of 2400 dollars. Well, they honored the payment to BoA (of course), and then proceeded to bounce checks all over creation. If they had not honored the 2400 payment to the credit card, nothing else would have bounced.
Gee, my first “blame the OP” comment :/.
I learned the “Don’t trust the ATM slip balance” lesson Oh, Geeez, about 25 years ago. ATMs were far more primitive than they are today, as were the computers they were tied to (if they were at all), and they’d merrily pump lots of $20 bills at you while the bank actually had a hold on your money.
Then you’d go into the bank and they’d smile, and shrug, and say, “We have the right to hold your money. If you don’t like it take your account elsewhere.” And when you asked your friends if any of their banks didn’t do this crap, they’d all smile knowingly and laugh, and say, “Oh, that happened to me, too. Live and learn!”
*sigh*
Something’s not right. I have never lived in a place where I could pay the electric bill with cash. Plus if you are so close to the limits on funds, why not simply pay by check, it will be a day or two before the check gets processed, days in your favor.
@cyberscribe: Don’t forget that a dollar bill isn’t worth any more than a bank statement showing you have a dollar in the bank. It’s all representative of the money. If you really want to wear a tin foil hat, take all your money out in gold.
@cyberscribe:
“A dollar bill in the hand is worth MORE than a million in the bank, IF
you can’t access a single penny of that money when YOU need it.”
Actually, a dollar bill in the hand is really no more than the paper it
is printed on. If you really want to wear a tin foil hat, take all your
money out in gold.
@byrdclaw:
Exactly. It doesn’t matter that this is the “normal” way banks do business. The point is that banks build these flipping traps deliberately. knowing full damned well that a certain percentage of their customers are going to fall into them.
Maybe some of you bank/corporate shills that lurk here for no other reason than to discredit people who complain about your cruddy companies and their shyster “services” could explain why banking has become so flipping complicated that an ordinary worker bee needs at least a damned four year degree in economics just to let them use your money anymore.
This lady was not attempting to use the damned bank’s money… she was attempting to access HER money. How dare a flipping bank invite her to deposit her money in their bank and then tell her she can’t have immediate access to it?
THAT is the nub of this problem, no matter how many lines of leagalese and financialese and ESPECIALLY your damned self serving company regulations you guys spew trying to justify it. All you’re trying to do is justify hanging on to her money for as long as you can and getting every nickel’s worth of gain from it you can before you even start to let her have it back. I’ve had MY damned bank do that on checks that THEY THEMSELVES issued, for crap’s sake.
You can post a freaking debit against the account within 15 minutes of me using my ATM card, you can have insufficient funds fees hanging all over an account within 24 hours of a 35 cent overdraft, and you COULD damned well clear a freaking check deposit in 24 flipping hours also. It all runs on the same flipping machines, right?
@mzs:
Maybe she uses the cash to purchase money orders to pay her bills? I know a few people who still do that. It doesn’t make a pinch of monkey crap’s worth of difference why SHE wanted HER money now, does it?
@WTRickman:
And you notice none of the OP blamers are even mentioning that little “largest to smallest” aspect of doing business with the shyster banks. What the HELL is wrong with posting the transactions in the order they were done? What justifies posting them according to size in the first place and ESPECIALLY largest to smallest, if the flipping point of the whole thing is customer service?