UPDATE: Kieffe & Sons apologized for the ad
Kieffe and Sons, a California Ford dealership, decided for some reason to launch a radio ad attacking non-Christians and people who believe that prayer shouldn’t be in public schools. Audio and transcript of the ad, inside.
The ad reads:
Did you know that there are people in this country who want prayer out of schools, “Under God” out of the Pledge, and “In God We Trust” to be taken off our money?
But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Now, since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians who believe in God, we at Kieffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don’t just tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case, then I say that’s tough, this is America folks, it’s called free speech. And none of us at Kieffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak up. Kieffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond: if we don’t see you today, by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.
The ad has been running on radio stations in southern California since at least February, according to one blogger. She wrote to Ford headquarters, but received a reply that because the dealerships are independently owned and operated, she should get in touch with the management at the dealership.
Here’s the audio of (most of) the ad:
The Underground Unbeliever [via BoingBoing]
(Photo: Amy Watts)
(Audio: Karen Peralta)
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I’d say that was pretty good advertising. There’s a heck of a market for businesses that are openly christian.
I’m not going to be buying a new car in California any time, but I do intentional give more of my business to stores that support christian morals and ethics.
@nfriedly:
Good for you. There’s a reason Hobby Lobby isn’t thriving in California and Christian bookstores are few and far between in that state, it’s not good advertising sense to offend your ACTUAL demographic.
@TheManator:
How is saying “Happy Holidays” offensive to Christians? Is it because it acknowledges that there are non-Christians and they get uppity when there worldview is challenged even in the smallest way possible?
It could also be that they really, really hate Jews.
Genesis Chapter 1 describes six stages to the creation of the universe/world/life. In 100 words or less, describe the big bang, accretion of matter into suns/planets/etc, evolutionary appearance of life to humans that is understandable to a person educated 6000 years ago. I imagine it would look quite a bit like Genesis.
Then you have the crackpots that think Genesis is literal, the universe is only 6000 years old, and man and dino’s walked hand in claw. And it wasn’t that long ago in our history that we though the Sun revolved around the Earth.
Belief in God != Christianity.
@drjayphd:
To answer your question, I’m simply saying that that other ‘stereotypes’ are not bashed when they state there beliefs such as the ‘Christians’. The Hollywood types is just a really good example.
@thegirls:
Now who’s being judemental??? Take a look in the nearest mirror. As I stated and I will state once again… It was an example of a stereotype. If you don’t care for the example I gave… sorry… my right, just like you have the right to say as you wish.
@Lucky225: The Mojave Desert is pretty large. Palm Springs and 29 Palms (low Mojave desert) are nowhere near this dealership (high Mojave desert). That would be like a 2 1/2 hour drive. The majority of their customers most likely come from North LA County and Southern Kern County.
@dirk1965:
I responded to your posting that you were a born again believer and again, that-
“Nobody ever seems to care about when non-believer shares their opinion… like a lot of the Hollywood ‘stars’!”
I never stated that I was a born again believer. You did…and in that same thread, made a judgment of others. How do you know what I or everyone else cares about? And again, stating that Hollywood stars are non-believers without really knowing that….that’s also an assumption and judgment on their beliefs.
I in no way meant to offend you, but I stated what I see.
@dink23:
meh, still in the sticks
@Eyebrows McGee:
THANK YOU!
I was reading through the rest of the comments to see if anyone cleared up some gross misconceptions in that post…
On a side note…
I went to a Presbyterian school and was basically told to sit down and shut up (not Presb…). Before college I was very religious, wanted to continue studying and become a minister. After my experience at school, however, I was turned off of formalized religion and haven’t been back (other than the occasional wedding or funeral). I was told by very religious people that if I didn’t believe in their god and beliefs, then I was wrong and going to hell. Of course, the school’s minister was a hate monger and bashed Catholics and non-Christians from his bully-pulpit.
I am still amazed at how inclusive many Christian groups sound, knowing first hand how very exclusive they can be.
Oh – and to those saying the radio station has to air dissenting views – not so… As long as the dealership has paid for the spot – the radio station does not have to grant equal time. If they got a non-profit or political org discount it’s a different story. This was a ad – not a public service announcement. Makes a difference!
classy.
@thegirls:
Obviously your blind then, because I never once stated that Hollywood type were “non-believers”. The reference was made because Hollywood type have a tendency to get up on their podium stating anything and everything that they believe without anyone slamming them. Geez… talk about someone attempting to read between the lines… and failing!
@Trai_Dep: “Science and faith are at two ends of an intellectual continuum. Blending the Big Bang with Creation myths demonstrate your ignorance of this. This is a fundamental error on your part. What’s next, Creationism?”
I disagree — I think science and faith answer two entirely different sets of questions and are therefore not on a continuum, but in two entirely separate ballparks on opposite sides of town! There are a great many scientists who are personally religious who see science as a way of knowing the mind/work of God. I think I’ve said before, my uncle & godfather was one of the biology teachers in Cobb County who fought those moronic “evolution is just a THEORY!” stickers. Like most Catholic biologists, he’s fully functional with regard to the reality of evolution, but he sees in the incredible awesomeness of evolution the glory of God. Not that that enters into his SCIENCE, but his beliefs inspire him to science, and science inspires him to belief.
He reads Genesis like most Christians do (I mean literally MOST; literalists are a small minority that date to about 1850 and are largely confined to the US, though they’re certainly friggin’ loud; interestingly, literalism was being declared heretical as early as the 3rd century), which is that it answers important questions about God’s relationship with humanity and creation, but it’s not a story about HOW THINGS ACTUALLY CAME TO BE. Or as I often clarify to my classes when we talk about religious mythology, “It’s TRUE, but it’s not FACTUAL.” The way, say, a novel or a poem can tell us many important true things about ourselves, but without being the least bit factual.
I think, regarding your excellent points about what a religion is, as humans we like to clarify, classify, and sort, and since “religion” is such a fuzzy-boundaried term, it’s very difficult for people to accept that they can’t come up with a firm definition — especially if they have little exposure (as I think you pointed out) to religions different from the dominant ones in their culture.
The textbook I teach from has a list of things that are frequently true of religions, and basically says, “If you have 75% of these, you’re probably, but not necessarily, looking at a religion. If you have less than 75% of these you’re probably, but not necessarily, looking at something that’s NOT a religion.” I actually like that approach a lot as a starting point for talking about the problem of how to define religion.
@dirk1965:
Wow……Judgmental much?
You statement just proved my point!
@htrout13: “I was told by very religious people that if I didn’t believe in their god and beliefs, then I was wrong and going to hell.”
Yeah, it’s interesting how often you (generic you) say “truly religious person” and have to clarify “truly GOOD person.” Because being a “true believer ™” so often has so little to do with actually PRACTICING any but the most public and superficial form of the faith in question.
Once I was told I was going to hell because I was Catholic, and the reason Catholics were going to hell was they ate fried chicken in church. Still have not connected the dots on that one! (But it always makes me want fried chicken.)
That ad is HILARIOUS. If monkeys accidentally hit “broadcast” on the radio station, they’d definitely say something more intelligent. Are we certain this ad isn’t a fake commercial from GTAIV?
It’s no surprise that ultra-conservative religious-types are concerned about protecting their religion’s power; they’re evidentally getting desperate. See “Taliban” in the encyclopedia for more techniques, Kieffe and Sons Ford.
Oh, and Ford, if you don’t think there’s a direct correllation between you allowing your so-called “independent dealerships” to run around and do stupid shit like this and the fact that you’re losing billions of dollars a year in lost sales, get ready for a wakeup call.
@Eyebrows McGee:
“and the reason Catholics were going to hell was they ate fried chicken in church”. I guess that means all Southern Baptists as well, because they LOVE their fried chicken
@thegirls:
I can see you like to argue just for the sake of arguing… oh and make things up that were not even said. So catch you on another thread some day.
Silly xtians!
@LibertyReign: “I don’t force anyone to believe what I believe, but I have no shame in my attempts to educate the uninformed.”
With all due respect, as an atheist of long standing, I find your comment troubling.
I personally don’t care for proselytization, no matter who does it. If a theist asks me to explain my position, I gladly do so, but I don’t go looking for opportunities. It’s regrettable that more theists can’t do the same with respect to those who don’t share their philosophy.
As long as the moron realized that NO that 86% who believe in god are most certainly NOT christian.
If you want to say in GOD we trust. I am FINE with that. If you want to say in CHRISTIAN GOD we trust THAT I have a problem with. I believe in no religion and that includes agnostic and atheist. I also do not have a problem with it so long as you do not shove it down my throat.
IN THAT SAME god damned “freedom of speech” you spout off about is FREEDOM OF RELIGION which includes NO RELIGION.
THAT is part of our “constitution”
ALSO part of our constitution is SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
DO not like it ? Either work to AMEND the constitution legally or get the hell out of my country.
Ya know, that is EXACTLY the accent I expected to hear in the audio excerpt when I was reading the text.
Faith answers no questions at all. It “fabricates” answers to unanswerable desires. Now I have no problem with that but comparing it to science on ANY level except as clear opposites is foolish.
@htrout13: “As long as the dealership has paid for the spot – the radio station does not have to grant equal time.”
That’s true, but the radio station can also refuse to carry the spot, in which case there’s nothing the car dealer can do about it.
@Lamburger Helper
I have never cared about the whole currency thing, but with all the redesigns happening of late, it seems unlikely that removing a design element in future designs would add considerable cost to the process… The only thing that bugs me about the whole matter is how the word got there. Things that were justified in their entirety by McCarthyism deserve reasonable debate before we accept them.
As for prayer in school, the issue is that children are being TOLD to pray, not that prayer is an option. No one anywhere is saying children shouldn’t be allowed to pray at all, just that they shouldn’t be instructed to do so. I believe that if someone prays, it should be because they choose to do so, not because they’re instructed to. I don’t see the value of prayer in schools for anyone, as, from my own experience, it makes prayer something you do because grownups tell you to do it.
@dirk1965:
I made nothing up – Everything I cited was in your original post!!!
Jesus love you
according to this chart, only 68% of americas are listed as christian, and that breaks down into numerous branches (protestant, lutheran, catholic, etc). even if you include “black churchs” that only gets you 75%.
[religions.pewforum.org]
this leaves 25% of the populace believing something else. what this doesn’t reveal though is that over 25% of catholics and protestants said they were not regular church goers and that religion had no major role in their life. so that means that those who believe and believe strongly is about half the populace. And I think thats being generous to say half.
here’s the really interesting thing: christiantity only makes up 33% of the populace when you look at the global population. nearly 16% are agnostic, and 21% are islamic and 14% are hindu.
[www.adherents.com]
so for his half the to tell the other half to sit down and shut up is arrogant and presumptive. we could just as easily say to him to shut up about his religion since he is not in the majority. Not to mention that if in this country we are free to believe or not believe as we so choose. this is not a religious state. If he wants a religious state, just look at the middle east to see how well that has worked.
@thegirls:
LOL… you’re such an antogonist, but is doesn’t work.
God Bless you anyway Brother or Sister
What makes this even sadder is that it’s not even original. I got spammed by my cousin several years ago with a nearly verbatim email about the stupid pledge (minus the bit about Fords). My younger less blase self replied all with a “no I will not,” plus impassioned defense of the separation of church and state and the history of the pledge, etc.
What was achieved by this? Removal from her mass email list. I call that a success.
You know, just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean they act like a Christian. While I don’t necessarily agree with what this guy said (because it’s not Christian-like), I do have to say that I understand where he’s coming from.
Prayer in schools? What’s the big deal? If you don’t want to pray then don’t bow your head.
This is from the same town that has a HUGE sign on the freeway as you leave that says (paraphrasing…from memory) “If you believe in me, I will heal your land” – God
The place is a barren dust pit choked by diesel fumes, surrounded by freight trains hauling rocks spewing more dust and topped off with huge aircraft graveyard filled with old planes waiting to die.
Part of me always thinks as I drive through, I guess there aren’t a lot of believers here.
Atheists drive evolved cars
Makes me glad to be a Deist (and I don’t buy domestic either).
@Nerys: “ALSO part of our constitution is SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.”
If you take a look, it’s actually a non-establishment clause and a freedom of religious practice clause. Nowhere does it say “separation of church and state.” That is merely one way the clauses have been interpreted in the history of our constitutional jurisprudence. Others include “non-preference” (state can meses with churches along as it messes with all equally) and everything-up-to-but-not-including-establishment.
We’re kind-of in a non-preference moment right now, which, like all the other interpretations, has its ups and downs. I tend to think state entanglement is bad for RELIGIONS, and I think you can see that in the current state of many religious institutions in the U.S., particularly the ones that are close to power.
Really!?
It’s quite a leap of logic that if you believe in God you’re a Christian (aren’t there other religions that believe in a god?)… 86% of people believe in God = 86% of people are Christian… wow… amazing statistical work guys!
Being an atheist this is where I should go on a tirade blasting Christianity, but I’d like to think any rational human would hear their spiel think those guys are a couple of dumb asses.
Dear God,
Please protect me from your followers.
Amen.
I thought Christians were supposed to evangelize to and try to convert
non-Christians.
I’m sure telling them to “sit down and shut up” will really endear
them to the Christian faith.
@ironchef: Exactly, it was added in during the anti-communist fervor of the 50s…
@Eyebrows McGee:
Bravo to almost everything you’ve had to say in this thread.
Keep in mind, however, that the *deists* who wrote the majority of our Declaration and Constitution were very aware of the dangerous nature of religion, which is why the documents were written as they were. It is thanks to them that we do not have language in the Constitution preventing Catholics and Jews from holding public office (the removal of which nearly destroyed the fledgling country). Note that they worked especially hard to avoid any mention of a god in the Constitution. I’m not necessarily arguing that they weren’t believers, but you must also consider that they would have been put to death had they claimed atheism. Far more effective to claim deism and limit the harm of the others, if they were not.
I’m just curious as to why the religious responders to this thread have (at least largely) failed to respond to anything you’ve said. They seem to be as scared of your comments as cockroaches are of light, and the nature of that has forever puzzled me.
Even where you’ve said the same things as other posters, they’ve somehow managed to avoid you entirely and direct their comments to the others.
That’s one of those “dangers of religion,” they hesitate to debate another believer, even if they think he/she is wrong.
@BigElectricCat:
I would normally agree with you, as a matter of course.
However, since the religious increasingly raise their voices, we must do the same. We cannot be content until, say, a political candidate’s religion (or lack thereof) is no longer an issue. We cannot be content until atheists who serve in the armed forces are not derided by generals in the pulpit, and those who die for their country are not insulted by presidents who proclaim that atheists “should not be considered citizens” of this country.
I don’t speak up to deride the beliefs of others, I speak up to point out the hypocrisy of those who would claim “intolerance” while spewing hatred from every orifice.
I think, or like to think, that religious individuals like Eyebrows McGee understand that. I don’t have to respect someone’s religious beliefs if they’re not going to respect the beliefs of others. If they can practice religion without stomping on my freedom to NOT practice religion, I’ll stand with them arm-in-arm.
@JLP at AllFinancialMatters:
Here, the crucial question must be again put to you:
Would you care if the prayer was a muslim or jewish prayer instead of a Christian prayer? Would you care if it was instead a Taoist ritual?
How about a pagan rite or a Satanic missive? You can always just not bow your head!
I’m not far from Mojave [I'm in Ridgecrest] and I’ve been complaining about this ad ever since the first time I’ve heard it [which lately has been alot] on the radio [102.7 KSSI, [www.kssifm.com]]. It irritates the hell out of me. They basically imply that even if you’re not a Christian, it’s still ok for you to visit the dealership. Well damn fucking right it is. I would double-dog-dare them to try to discriminate against me due to religious reasons.
My wife is a devout Christian and she despises this ad as well. She says it’s un-Christian, and it’s embarrassing to her.
For months I’ve been meaning to call the radio station or the dealership, but I’ve just not had a chance. Maybe I need to do this.
I can tell you that this little dealership is a shithole in a shithole town. I wouldn’t buy a car from them if they gave it to me.
Well…
I looked up the stations phone number in the phone book [had to dig it out]… 760-446-5774
Actually, I just listened to the ad, that’s not even the one i’ve heard… this one is worse. There is another one that’s not quite as brazen.
@Eyebrows McGee: Upon reflection, you’ve got a much better take on science vs religion – parallel paths, not the same. Dang, you’re GOOD!
I wish I had a professor like you as an undergrad; it would have been great to take your class!
@RvLeshrac: “I think, or like to think, that religious individuals like Eyebrows McGee understand that. I don’t have to respect someone’s religious beliefs if they’re not going to respect the beliefs of others. If they can practice religion without stomping on my freedom to NOT practice religion, I’ll stand with them arm-in-arm.”
I DON’T understand that, because people like me DO respect your religious beliefs or lack thereof, and are equally frustrated by the haters, but when you get up at the haters and disrespect THEM, often I am disrespected as well, and this seems like a poor return on my respect for you.
Rarely do people make the point that “THIS KIND of hypocritical Christian is a problem;” instead they say, “Christianity has no place in the public sphere! Christianity is bad!” You’re then tarring me with the same brush of disrespect you’re using for them. Using their tactic puts you on the same level. (And, frankly, just cranks up their propaganda machine.) Being the calm, tolerant, reasonable one gives you the moral high ground and is enormously persuasive over time (Gandhi’s really wise on this point).
I think some folks like Dawkins do their cause more harm than good because they’re just so alienating to people who are “live-and-let-live” Christians — Dawkins attacks, so when annoying fundies go, “We’re under attack!” they have a lot of ammo to convince the live-and-let-livers that in fact they are under attack.
I watch this drama locally all the time. We have a local atheist agitator whose self-admitted purpose in life is to make a nuisance of himself. What happens OVER AND OVER is some Dork-for-Jesus gets up at city council and makes some big point about how if we stuck a giant electrified Jesus on top of the courthouse, school violence would stop, and the entire city rolls their eyes and goes, “Good Lord, what a DORK, I wish that guy would shut up.” And then the atheist agitator gets up (feeding the troll, quite honestly) and starts demanding that not only must we never have a giant electrified Jesus on top of the courthouse, but the local historic association must stop including churches on its walking tours because they get a local grant and Christianity is BAD and EVIL and should never be mentioned! What he manages to do is make a lot of people say, “You know, that first guy was a dork, but I’m a Christian, and this guy’s just spewing hate and disrespect” and the dork gets some minor victory and the agitator wonders why he’s never successful with his points even when he’s correct.
There’s even local recognition that the agitator usually has a point, but he’s just so incapable of not insulting everyone he comes in contact with because he hates religion so much that everyone rolls their eyes before he even starts TALKING because we know he’s about to go right off the cliff.
If you’re a NetFlix subscriber watch the documentary about The Shakers — available as a “Watch it Now” offering.
As an Atheist, I was heartbroken to contrast their truly Christian values with what passes for Christianity these days. As Christians, they defined themselves by who they loved, not by who they hated, as today’s Christians seem to do.
Those of you who are true Christians (I know there must be some out there), please tell your brethren what a destructive path they’re on.
If you feel like we’re against you, it’s because you’ve made yourself into an ugly caricature of faith. Get back to the values you used to have.
@RvLeshrac: “I’m just curious as to why the religious responders to this thread have (at least largely) failed to respond to anything you’ve said.”
Part of it is because a lot of people are in the habit of FIGHTING about these things and only know how to deal in an attack/defend scenario. Some people are honestly at a loss and don’t know how to respond if you don’t attack but speak reasonably and gently.
I teach comparative religions to a class that’s typically 50% fundamentalist Christian and 90% never-met-a-non-Christian. A lot of them come in ready to fight, and when they discover I won’t fight with them, but will (usually) listen respectfully and respond reasonably, they don’t really know what to do, so they usually shut up and listen and learn. I get a lot of practice at engaging gently.
(I also get — I am not making this up — comments on my teaching reviews like, “I still think all philosophers/Catholics/non-Christians are going to hell because they’re not saved, but you made me realize they’re not all EVIL. I never thought I could learn anything from someone who didn’t have Jesus in their heart. Thanks!” It just warms the cockles of my hell-bound heart.
)
@Trai_Dep: We’ll start a mutual admiration society, since I always like your posts too.
@Eyebrows McGee:
Dawkins’s brand of discourse has a very valid place, though, which is exactly where you’re positing it doesn’t – the government meeting.
Much like the majority of muslims don’t stand up and vocalize their disagreement with the tactics of professed-islamic terrorists, the majority of sane and reasonable christians fail to stand up and vocalize their disagreement with the tactics of professed-christian institutions such as “Focus on the Family,” “The Discovery Institute,” abortion-clinic bombers, and anti-gay hatemongers.
Further, for years the most vocal and public among professed-christians such as Falwell, Robertson, Bush Sr., McCarthy, and others have spewed hatred towards atheists to the point where we’re polled as being less electable in a presidential race than a black man, homosexual, or, recently, a muslim. (Not to be taken out of context, of course.)
Even further, since Dawkins is a renowned biologist, he has an extremely vested interest in attacking religion given the many battles being fought to attempt to have religion (ID) shoehorned into the educational system. While he has always been critical of religion, he was not particularly militant about the subject until it was made clear that the ID-proponents were gaining inroads all over the US.
Without the efforts of Dawkins, Hitchens, and others, some of those courtroom battles for the minds of children – battles against dark-age thinking and scientific regression – might have been lost.
There are plenty of public atheist figures who disagree with the style of Dawkins, and they’ve publically stated so. Plenty of everyday atheists have publically said that they disagree with his style, dislike is syle, or, in the case of Hitchens, verbally castrate him in the middle of a debate (which is a bit ironic, eh?). I never heard the same level of outcry against Falwell and Robertson after their 9/11 comments (though at least that drew SOME commentary), and there was certainly no public outcry against George H. W. Bush when he said “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
In the mind of the public, it seems perfectly acceptable to say the same things about atheists that were said 100 (or even 50) years ago about blacks, jews, and catholics.
From Broga.
A previous comment wondered how many people this bigot had managed to offend and thus lose business. Well, I don’t know about California although know there are many non Christians there but you ain’t seen nothing yet. The offense is spreading in the UK and Europe and we may not affect this dealer personally but Ford is a world wide company. I have bought my last Ford until this bigot is stopped. He talks about free speech. What about free speech and free thought. How many men and women in the military died and are crippled for this. If Ford wants trouble then this guy is bringing it big time. What about the effect in India and Japan? Ford needs to get real. This man is their worst nightmare and they need to wake up.
Stop him now and then apologise.
I’m pretty sure that 86% figure is actually worded “86% of Americans believe in a (as in any, not necessarily the Christian depiction) God. I’ve heard this figure misquoted over and over again by Christians trying to prove that religion is the majority in this country. It is, certainly, but not by the margin they often present. So the ad actually misquotes the figure twice, since he says that all 86% were Christian.
I do think that people on either side of the evolution/creationism argument can be pretty obnoxious, but it all comes from core beliefs. Unfortunately for the creationism side, their idea is completely unfalsifiable, and is contrary to what science has been able to put together, including detailed fossil records that point to evolution for a great deal of animals, including humans. What most christians also fail to realize is that the evolutionary theory doesn’t ever suggest that God didn’t have a hand in things. It only suggests that many of the historical details presented in the bible are (big surprise) completely inaccurate. Couldn’t god have created life and given it the ability to evolve and adapt to it’s environment? What would be the point of creating life if you had to hold it’s hand for all eternity?
Another great tidbit I’m noticing more and more is that Christians cite free speech as a great justification for rubbing their beliefs in your face. This is so ass backwards it’s unbelievable. We came to America to get away from these silly secular divisions and live our lives the way we felt most comfortable, with or without religion, whatever religion we choose.
That being said I don’t really find this postworthy. So the dealer is pulling a stunt to get people in the door? Big deal. It’s way easier to pander to religious nuts who buy into the idea that they should only buy from other nuts than to say “All you evolutionists out there! We sure hate God and all these great Fords are here to take you as far away from intolerant morons as you can possibly get!” See? sounds pretty silly. Thankfully, not everyone on either side of this argument has such black and white views.
Holy wow at that picture