Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War
Some debt collectors are mighty persistent.
NPR says that a 77-year-old Tampa woman, Joan Kennedy Biddle, is suing to collect on a $300 loan that her great-grandfather made to the city of Tampa 147 years ago, during the Civil War. That modest debt (with interest) has grown to a little under $23 million dollars.
Biddle is in possession of an IOU signed by Tampa's mayor promising to repay her ancestor for money borrowed to purchase supplies to be used in defense of the city of Tampa. The IOU is dated 1861, after Florida joined the Confederacy. When asked why she's trying to collect the debt now, Biddle told NPR: "Better late than never."
In defense of itself, the City of Tampa came up with a rather impressive list of reasons why the debt is not valid, not least of which is the fact that it was payable in Confederate dollars — a currency that no longer exists. It seems that Ms. Biddle's IOU may do better on Antiques Roadshow than it will in a court room.
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Her grandfather loaned money to a "country" that no longer exists. It would be like trying to collect money from Siam.
maybe if she has herself frozen for 1000 years - it will accrue enough interest to buy the last can of sardines on earth...
She should claim it on her income tax return as a bad debt.
DOH! Anchovies...
um wasn't the Civil War & such confederate dollars over many yrs prior to that loan? Something isn't making sense.
@Milstar: I think its a math error. The 147 years is right (for 1861), but yeah, the civil war was long over in 1871
the city should sue her for FDCPA and FCRA violations!
@Crazytree:
She's not a third party debt collector, so the FDCPA doesn't apply.
She's lose, probably on laches.
@Pylon83: depends on what the definition of "third-party debt collector" is.
if it means a licensed debt collection agency, then it may not apply. otherwise she is a third party (her great-grandfather was the lending party) and she is now attempting to collect the debt.
unless there is an exception for debt passed down through blood kin, she is BY DEFINITION, a third-party debt collector.
1) Pay her in Confederate money. Problem solved.
2) The U.S. can imprison her for aiding and abetting an enemy in time of war. Second problem solved.
LoL people obviously don't attempt to redeem things like this earlier because the longer they wait, the more they can take!
Wouldn't collection of the debt be time-barred?
Nice of you all to run my picture in the headline... though I was on the other side of the war.
This is right out of The Andy Griffith Show almost line for line.
Season 2, Episode 4: Mayberry Goes Bankrupt
Original Air Date: 23 October 1961
Frank Myers is a kindly old man who lives in a rundown house which the town council feels is an eyesore. He is also delinquent on back taxes and they decide to evict him. Andy is opposed but is forced to serve papers. The Taylors decide to take him in until he can find a permanent place to live. While looking through his valuables Andy finds a 100 year old bond which is redeemable for the face value plus 8 1/2% interest compounded annually. The council panics when they find out the town of Mayberry owes Frank Myers over $349,000 dollars.
That's actually a good idea to take it on Antiques Roadshow. That would be interesting to see.
We already covered this EXACT situation in an old episode of "The Andy Griffith Show". Jeeze ,doesn't anybody pay attention ?
On a technical level, the loan was to the City, not the confederacy.
@catskyfire: Right, but it was made in confederate dollars, and the technical exchange rate for those is $0:$1, so the city is right, they don't owe her squat.
Epic fail (but a nice try.)
The press this'll generate may find her some rich antique collectors who dig this kind of rarity. And it's a great story too.
This was out weeks ago.
The 'best' reason is that the city was not the same city then. The old city unincorporated and the current city is a new corporation.
/former Tampa resident
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to collect on a Monopoly debt... You know how it is, I loan you (Monopoly) money to avoid losing the game, and 10 years later I sue you for outstanding debt.
I wonder what the interest rate at Parker Brothers is...
BigElectricCat: Indeed, time barred debt for quite a while now, not to mention the devaluing of the currency. $23,000,000 in confederate dollars at an exchange rate of what?
confederate money wasn't issued until April 1861 so there's a good chance that this is in US dollars.
also the issue of being "time barred" raises some issues. at what point does an outstanding debt stop accruing interest? with most companies its when it's "charged off" and sent to a third party collection agency. perhaps when the promisee dies? I don't know.
in other news, tampa's fitch rating reduced from a- to d after knowledge of their inability to pay obligations emerged in the media.
[www.fair-debt-collection.com]
Florida Statutes of LimitationContract or written instrument and for mortgage foreclosure: 5 years. F.S. 95.11.
Libel, slander, or unpaid wages: 2 years.
Judgments: 20 years total and to be a lien on any real property, it has to be re-recorded for a second time at 10 years.
The limitations period begins from the date the last element of the cause of action occurred, (95.051). NOTE: The limitation period is tolled (stopped) for any period during which the debtor is absent from the state and each time a voluntary payment is made on a debt arising from a written instrument.
Almost all other actions fall under the 4-year catch-all limitations period, (F.S. 95.11(3)(p)).
It seems City of Tampa is in the clear if the 5-year SOL has passed. So the big question is, have 5 years passed since 1871?
Section 4 of the 14th Amendment runs as follows:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
@spinachdip: The debt's from 1860; you probably have to use whatever the time limit was in 1860. Anybody got a copy of Florida's 1860 statutes?
It was a probably a common law thing back then, so I'm going to guess "seven years."
@spinachdip: Applying the statute of limitations assume that we know the due date of the IOU. If the IOU does not say something like "to be paid no later than 18XX," then there is no date from which to run to limitations period.
On the surface, at least, this IOU appears to be similar to a bond. A municipal bond is essentially a loan to a city/town. Bonds typically provide for a certain payment at maturity, but continue to earn interest thereafter. They do not become stale (or uncollectible) over time.
That said, the Confederacy-thing may be the real issue.
if it's in confederate dollars they should pay her with confederate dollars in good condition and then it's up to her to sell those for current value which is about $25 a bill depending on condition.
also the statute of limitations on debt collecting would have be retroactive. this debt may be grandfathered in.
@nequam: I wondered about that, but I figured IOU was more like a bank loan and not like a publicly issued/auctioned bond.
@CumaeanSibyl: was the debt incurred in furtherance of the "insurrection" or was it just borrowed by Tampa to run its civil affairs? for some reason I don't think of Tampa being a huge supplier of war materiel to the Confederate war machine.
the reason this will never happen is that if it does, there's going to be a lot of money to be made by professional counterfeiters who specialize in old paper.
@Crazytree:
Hey, if Fry's bank account didn't stop accruing interest in 1,000 years, I think grandma here is fine. ;)
If I were the city, I'd pay her a reasonable fee (a couple thousand bucks?) for the IOU, generate some goodwill and get an artifact for some museum somewhere.
@ceejeemcbeegee: You'd better get ready to run though... they'll run your arse out of town if you don't "loan" them the money.
My oh my how the times have changed!