Not being able to afford to eat at restaurants that don’t have a dollar menu may become a sin in NJ, says the Associated Press. Jon Corzine, the governor of a state in which gambling is legal, is considering a suggestion to levy a “sin tax” on fast food in order to help save NJ’s underfunded hospitals.
From the AP:
New Jersey Gov. Jon S. Corzine said Tuesday he’s open to using a “sin tax” to help provide funding for struggling hospitals.
His comments came after Amy Mansue, of Children’s Specialized Hospital, suggested a fast food tax during a meeting between Corzine and hospital leaders on proposed state hospital and health care aid cuts.
Corzine called it “a constructive suggestion.”
“We would be happy to examine that and debate that with the Legislature,” Corzine said.
But Senate President Richard J. Codey said he wouldn’t favor a fast food tax.
“That’s a tax on poorer people and people with kids,” said Codey, D-Essex.
Detroit weighed a 2 percent tax on sales at fast-food establishments in 2005, but the plan didn’t become law.
What do you think? Can cheap, unhealthy food be a “sin” like cigarettes or liquor? And if so, whose sin is it?
A fast food tax to help NJ hospitals? Corzine open to idea [NJ] (Thanks, Andrew!)
(Photo:Morton Fox)
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It’s Corzine’s plan to get the Jersey folks eventually spending more in New York, Pennsylvania and Delaware.
G’wan! Keep taxing them! You know New York loves more business! (I love playing Devil’s Advocate)
Sin taxes are bogus. More regulation on restaurants and other food providers? Sure, if it keeps them from doing quite as much damage to public health. But if Corzine wants revenue, he should get it the old-fashioned way, from income and sales taxes.
Obviously, sin taxes are difficult to define and implement, but the principle makes sense… collect additional tax revenue from activities that have societal externalities. Smoking and alcohol, for example, cause health and other problems for the user and for others. Why let the user impose a societal burden greater than he pays?
Unhealthy food is similar in its societal burdens, but it’s a huge gray area.
I’ve got mixed feelings on this one.
1. It does target the poor disproportionately.
2. What’s next?
On the other hand:
1. Fast food joints are often far closer to poorer areas of town than are decent grocery stores. What’s easier (not lazier), walking down the block to Taco Bell or taking 1 or 2 buses to get to a grocery store?
2. Fast food joints need to have a healthier variety. Try eating vegetarian at Wendys. It’s not much better at McD’s or BK. At least Taco Bell has their ‘fresco’ menu now (aka remove the cheese)
Realistically, cities should zone fast food joints to limit their impact on the populace. If there are no grocery stores (even a small one at reasonable prices) within walking distance (~ 1 mile? … old folks eat too), then no fast food unless you have a decent, healthy menu.
Or perhaps have the city pay for delivery of groceries to poorer areas. People still pay for the food, but the city picks up most of the tab for the delivery.
Just a thought!
Here’s another idea. Put all fast food restaurants on at least the fifth floor or so. Make anyone who wants to eat there take the stairs. No elevator unless you’re disabled (for other than being fat).
As for everyone who’s opposed to a sin tax on principle, how should we pay for the increased burden on hospitals? Tax fat people? Not everyone is overweight due to overeating.
Only solution (and not a good one) I can think of is to charge people with unhealthy habits more for health insurance. How to enforce this? If you do this through doctors visits, then you may be discouraging people in need ffrom going to the doctor. House calls might solve this.
I’m curious if any countries with universal health coverage (or mandatory health insurance) have dealt with this. I read somewhere recently that Japan was mandating a maximum waist size. Not sure how they will enforce this (let alone how to deal with sumo wrestlers).
But I digress…
Why let the user impose a societal burden greater than he pays?
@Logical Extremes: Not everyone who drinks alcohol drives drunk and not everyone who smokes does it around non-smokers.
Personally, I have a problem with the government telling us that something is a sin and then profiting off of it. “We’re going to raise money for this hospital by taxing Y. We’re taxing Y because Y is bad. Please continue to purchase Y, even though it is bad for you, so we can build the hospital.”
I never eat this stuff, but that burger looks very yummy.
Well California’s sales tax is the highest in the US at 8.75% but Canadian tax, especially in Ontario is worse.
the provincial (like state) tax is 8% and then add on the federal cut at 5% = 13%
Sin taxes here in Ontario means you will pay anywhere from the low $6.00 to $9.00 for a normal size 25s of cigarettes.
For alcohol….a 18 pack of Bud Light or Bud will set you back $22.00 , want a 24 of brand name, you will pay close to $35.00 a case.
40 oz of spirits (cheap stuff) will cost you at least $30+.
You got it made with your 10.99 18 pk of bud’s and 4.00 a pack cigs.
The hospitals wouldnt be on the brink of bankrupcy if they would check for CITIZENSHIP before treating someone and DENY service to illegal aliens. Somewhere around 50% of people who go to the hospitals and cant afford to pay for service are ILLEGAL aliens.
@greenpepper:
This isn’t about health, that’s a red herring. The government here wants to specifically tax fast food because A LOT of people go to fast food places and they can turn around a crapload of money in a really short amount of time. I doubt that Applebee’s handles the same volume as fast food does, so there wouldn’t be a sin tax there, even though you can probably eat a lot more crap at Applebee’s than say, Chic-Fil-A.
@Victo:
They’re, There and Their…
Learn the difference.
ok this would never go through, in fact it’s barely an idea at this point. who in the hell is electing idiots like this anyway? if we can make stupid taxes like this, they should tax everybody that does not vote, and therefore allows idiots like this in office.
I’d like to tax each and every politican amounting to 10 times their salaries.
,I wonder how much of the money from these sin taxes actually go into healthcare. I betting its like social security where thie government raids the funds whenever it wants.,
@Gorky: Or the government could actually have border security. Problem with proving citizenship not everyone has a passport and documents can be faked. Take the money and troops in Iraq and use them at the border to prevent illegal crossings
Seems from the article that this jackass governer is saying his state will reduce the number of hospital patients served unless he gets subsidies from cheeseburger sales. So in the case that he doesnt get cheeseburger subsidies (or revenues from high end french dining), does he say tough luck, you die?
I hate this crap! My local government has a drive-thru tax (usually comes out to about 20-40 cents per order).
Bastards!
btw that pic nearly gave me a hardon it looks so delicious!
Here’s an idea
Give less subsidies to beef farms! Dear god.
Put some of it into vegetable subsidies and give the rest to hospitals.
If people can afford food that’s good for them they won’t need to go to hospitals as much anyway.
@Chris Vee: Really? I admit that I have no personal experience with the program, but I do know that in NY state, food stamps can be used for any food/food product *with the exception of ready-to-serve, hot items sold in stores.*
You can also use the benefits to purchase seeds for plants that will grow things that you can consume, or for fresh produce.
When I was a young’un in VA my best friend’s mom got food stamps, and they ALWAYS had fairly healthy food. I’ve seen people in the program load up on crap but, in the places that I’ve lived, it’s never been because they HAD to. It’s laziness, an inability to cook, or a lack of understanding about shopping/budgets AND nutrition.
@hypochondriac: Not much, I bet. When they raised cig taxes here, it was supposed to go towards the cost of health care. I remember reading an article in, I think it was the Times Union, about how a large amount had been funneled off into things like education, and repairing roads, and very little seemed to be going towards smoking cessation/prevention or healthcare. Not that I have a problem with education or infrastructure, but if you say you’re raising taxes on something for the purpose of a specific something, that’s where the money needs to go. Can’t wait to see what they’re doing with the additional $1.65 in taxes on them when it kicks in, bringing the cig tax to $3, woo woo. Maybe I’ll start smoking cheeseburgers before they start taxing them here.
@csdiego: Don’t think he isn’t trying. NJ’s finances are so far down the toilet, he’s trying to squeeze blood from the stone any way he can and since the public shot down his toll hike plan, he’s gotten very pissy and petty about it.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Deport all the illegals and they just solve their hospital financial problem.
I’d say levy a tax IF there are no grocery stores in the neighborhood. If they have a choice to choose and cook real, healthy food and choose not to, that’s one thing. Going to the McD’s because it’s more convenient that crossing town to that grocery store where people stare that you’re in the store is something else.
As others have mentioned, this is simply a way to squeeze more money out of people. The sin taxes are more specific and don’t suffer from the same problems of definition/consistency. I do take some issue with the alcohol tax since moderate drinking improves health.
In my mind, there are other easy sources of funding:
Legalize marijuana and tax the crap out of it.
Tax churches (except for those specific activities that are community based- soup kitchens).
Tax ultra-luxury items (SUV’s, homes over X,000 square feet, boats over X feet, etc.
The problem is that the taxes must be put in certain trusts/funds for specific purposes in order to prevent wasting by either party.
@Bladefist: Despite being ingrained with the concepts of capitalism and free markets, there’s very little in the Constitution regarding what we can and can’t tax, what tax rates we pay, the rights for corporations to exist, rights to contract, etc. The interstate commerce clause, Articles related to Congress imposing taxes, and the income tax are about it. So most of the Constitution is “pro-tax” because it assumes representation.
Why not a sin tax, or just the employer and employee raxes that they are already “required” to pay but don’t on hiring the illigal alians that are getting free health care? $20,000 childbirth tabs being picked up by citizen taxpayers adds up
@ARP: For many people outside of Soccermomtopia, SUVs aren’t a luxury item, let alone an ultra-luxury, but vital to their jobs, or their way of life. Homes over X,000 square feet may not be a luxury if that household contains n members.
Honestly, I can’t see penalizing somebody who may have actually worked hard, sacrificed and saved for something that they felt worthwhile … and not extending that ‘punishement’ towards everyone who had those opportunities but opted to blow their earnings snorting high priced Tide, and banging prostitutes who make Dick Cheney in a teddy look appealing. I’m all for them adding a “You Suck At Life & Your Mom Dresses You Funny ” tax to some of the corporate fatcats who are doing nothing and taking home eleventy billion dollars for it, though. Because THAT’s bullshit.
Government (be it local, state, or federal)should refrain from raising taxes until they seem ta grasp/appreciate WHERE this money comes from, and at least try to look like they can spend it wisely.
This from a grey haired old guy that doesn’t even wear a seat belt.From a cut a tax here then shift it there.This is pc garbage.That’s right blame YOUR fitness on that evil fast food industry.
Ok,now you won’t die from a heart attack from high cholestoral you’ll die from starvation because now you can’t afford to feed yourself.AND/or you still will cost the tax payers money for now you will have to go on food stamps to be able to afford that so called healthy food.
Taxes aside,you need calories,you even need fat for fuel,for the brain or for the joints.Just like anything else food can be abused.
I have survived on fast sinners food many a time in my adult life and I am NOT over weight,I do NOT have high blood pressure or diabetes.There is nutrition in fast food.It’s a lack of EXERCISE that is one of biggest factors in fat/related problems.Your body was designed to store fat for fuel,If you don’t use it YOU won’t loose it.
I HATE YOU GOVERNOR CORZINE! LEAVE MY STATE AND NEVER COME BACK (at the current pace of what he’s doing, there maybe a crazy mob driving him out of office with pitchforks by years end.
@coold8: New Jersey needs to be burnt to the ground and start over. The finances are so bad there’s nearly no viable way to fix it, the cost of living is so high other states are PROFITING OFF PEOPLE MOVING THERE FROM NEW JERSEY and Corzine’s idea of relieving the debt is to borrow $(x) from Party B to pay off Party A.
@unravel: Problem is that smoking harms others. Not just you. If eating a Big Mac cause the person next to you to get obease, then I would be all for it.
A sin tax on food while the casinos pay 11% of their income in taxes.
Nevada is in the 30% range, Pennsylvania is at 55%.
Insane. What an idiot. This guy once ran Goldman Sachs? Unreal.
Considering NJ is bankrupt, mainly do to political corruption, this doesn’t surprise me. Hell, it wouldn’t have surprised me if they announced they wanted to start taxing air.
Tax benefits on legal dope are a red herring. How can you legalize the consumption of something and prevent the PRODUCTION of it.
If dope were legal most homes would have a few nice plants added to the garden and there would be no tax revenue.
Trust me the government makes far more money from boat, car and home seizures than any sales tax would provide
I live in NJ and would totally support this. YES, it is a tax on the poor/uneducated/people with children. BUT, maybe it would force some of them to re-evaluate what they put in their mouths and in their children’s mouths.
I have a (former) friend who worked as a preschool teacher. She had a student who weighed almost as much as she did (the little girl was three years old), whose parents brought Chicken McNuggets for her snack everyday (while other parents provided granola bars, fruit or other healthier choices for their kids), who got winded while sitting playing with blocks and who, when playing with Matchbox cars, always seemed to have her cars going to the Drive-Thru (which is where her dinners were nightly provided).
This child is probably going to be dead before she graduates high school. However, maybe this increase in prices may force her parents to instead by veggies at the supermarket.
@SonicMan: I’m not trying to be a dick, but really, who defines harm? I can smoke in my home (the area well ventilated), and I can smoke outside it. I can’t smoke in restaurants, I can’t smoke in bars, and because I am considerate, I won’t smoke around people who aren’t smoking. I’m not going to your home, closing your windows and tying you to a chair while I puff away. Should a health issue arise. WHO am I harming, pray tell?
I lose $547 a year in cigarette taxes. and the claim is always that it will be funneled into healthcare. I beg you to tell me that these days, a good deal of people’s health issues aren’t caused by obesity and poor eating habits. Because my husband smokes, we may lose a total of $1094. If we continue to buy cigarettes in NY, we’ll lose up to $2190 in cigarette taxes alone, each year. You’re more than welcome to tell me that a loss of $2,000 a year has no adverse affect on me, but I don’t think that it’s your place to do so. I have no qualms in saying I am harmed by the eating habits/obesity of some.
I’ve thought about this before. I wish companies actually cared for the health of their consumers. Ethics beyond keeping a (relatively) good reputation. Healthier food could be offered; tweemo’s idea of subsidizing veggies rather than beef seems to be a good way of encouraging otherwise reluctant fast food restaurants to offer better food.
Jayus, then Hardies would be out of business and that would make me really sad. I only go maybe twice a month, since I like my heart and don’t wish to get more fat….
@atypicalxian:
i couldnt agree more with you…
but you forgot idiot drivers.. heaven forbid a drop of precipitation should gently grave your windshield because that’ll have to make you go 10 miles UNDER the speed limit in the “fast lane”…
@Kat@Work:
I see what you did now.
It probably would have been far more relevant to bring in the amount of taxes corporations dodge but, the word ‘sin’ was an easy way to bridge into an unrelated issue.
“She had a student who weighed almost as much as she did (the little girl was three years old), whose parents brought Chicken McNuggets for her snack everyday (while other parents provided granola bars, fruit or other healthier choices for their kids), who got winded while sitting playing with blocks and who, when playing with Matchbox cars, always seemed to have her cars going to the Drive-Thru (which is where her dinners were nightly provided).”
But you don’t know these people’s circumstances. Perhaps they can’t afford an apartment and live in a motel where there are no kitchens to cook in. Or are making a slave wage at a crappy job and are just trying to keep their child fed. It’s a sad fact but it’s far cheaper to buy food at McDonald than it is to buy fresh produce. Either way you can’t always assume that people eat this crap because they are lazy. Which is why this isjust another way for NJ politicians to keep lining their pockets on the back of middle class NJ citizens.
While we are on the subject of ‘sin’, it’s fascinating to know that thousands of years ago when followers of Jehovah were trying to get their people to stop following other gods, one of the other gods was a Persian goddess of the moon named Sin. If someone did something that she commanded, it became known by the Jehovites as a “sin”, or something you shouldn’t do because Jehovah said there is only one god and don’t follow false gods. So the entire concept of sin dates back to one group of religious people telling their own followers to stop obeying another god.
After reading some comments, I think there ought to be a “Self Righteous” tax for those idiots who support this tax.
@BFIrrera: Doubt it. Her parents will probably buy potato chips and frozen chicken fingers at the supermarket.
@Jayus: Well, I looked it up and livestock is actually pretty far down the list in terms of the percentage of subsidies, but corn and wheat are numbers 1 and two, soybeans are near the top. Since the majority of those crops is used for livestock feed, livestock is in effect highly subsidized, but technically it’s not at the top.
We could certainly do with the price of corn going up, though.
I’m all for a fast food tax, but bringing one in during a reccesion is a bad move.
@NightSteel:
Comment on NJ Gov Interested In Fast Food “Sin Tax” You are one self righteous jackass. What give you or anyone else the right
to decide what is proper for me and my family? In a state with the highest
property tax in that nation, you would think NJ residents would say enough.
Eating fast food is not a “sin” and if you think it is, at what point does
the meal no longer constitute fast food? If it takes more than XXX minutes,
then it isn’t fast food. Who decides, you? I think not.
@ironchef:
Comment on NJ Gov Interested In Fast Food “Sin Tax” Amen! Lower the cost of health care, and this problem goes away. Tort
reform, insurance reform, I could go on.
New Jersey taxes their citizens the most out of all the states.