Reader Jered says that IHOP refused to accept his credit card without seeing ID and threatened to call the police and report him for dine-and-dashing if he didn’t show it to them. Here’s his story:
I went to IHOP(INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF PANCAKES) on March 30th with my wife to eat. After our meal I went to the counter to pay and presented my Visa as payment. I was asked for photo ID, and kindly declined. I was then told that they were not going to be able to accept my card without photo ID.
I then offered my MasterCard(so that I could later fill out a complaint) and was also told a photo ID would be required. I then explained that I had no other form of payment, that it was against both Visa & MasterCard’s merchant rules. I was then directed to the manager, who I politely explained to that if he expected to be paid for the meal he offered me, he had the choice of accepting and honoring my card, or not getting paid.
At this point the manager called the police and was attempting to have me arrested for Dine-and-Dash, even though I was the one trying in good faith to present payment, and they were the one’s refusing, based on a ‘store policy’ that was in a direct breach of contract, their merchant agreement. My wife then showed her Visa(same account number) and her ID, and was fully embarrassed and outraged that they were trying to have me arrested because THEY refused to accept payment. I found this completely unacceptable, I called their Corporate Headquarters in Glendale, California, as did my wife, and filed complaints. We were told a Field Rep for the area would call us, but none ever did. I’d plan on going back there with just my card and no ID and let the police come, but as a matter of principal I can simply not got back there after something like that.
– Jered,
We think you’re right in not going back. Why give your money to bullies? It is indeed a violation of IHOP’s merchant agreement with MasterCard to refuse payment without photo ID, except in the case that they need to ship something to you and have to verify your address. Did you plan on having your partially digested waffles FedExed?
MasterCard Merchant Manual (PDF) [MC]
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Some folks are understandably touchy about showing ID. Personally, I’ve written “ASK FOR ID” in the signature bar of my card (no one ever asks – sad). But I’ll bet my card limit against yours that you’ll be the first person to be absolutely incredulous that Best Buy actually sold $10,000 of electronics to the guy who stole your card without thinking to ask for ID.
As a Merchant I am responsible for any transaction involving stolen/fraud CC, EXCEPT when I have an active CC Fraud detection program in place that includes state issued photo ID verification.
If I choose to ignore the policies I must accept the risk.
@DeeJayQueue: Yes, in my state I’m required by law to have proof of insurance in my car at all times, and I still get 10 days or so to show up with it in court if I forget. Ditto license.
And you know what, people? Sure, it’s “not a big deal” and these agreements are “never properly enforced” — right up until the company wants to screw the CONSUMER. Consumers have just as much right to demand companies abide by the letter of the law, or the official contract policies. God knows the companies do when it’s to their benefit.
And it isn’t that far from this to “papers please.” I was just in an 8-month long dispute with a local government body I did some work for, that refused to pay me until I provided my social security card, on the grounds that my passport was inadequate proof of right to work in the U.S., federal law notwithstanding.
@lesspopmorefizz:
Probably because a picture of my face is on the front of my VISA cards.
Checking ID? How about they check the signature? I can’t remember the last time that a merchant actually looked at the signature. Wait, yes I can. That was when I was at the USPS and had to deal with the rules lawyer to the rules lawyer who works there.
Speaking of which, maybe someone can answer me this: if they do go to compare the signature and it’s signed but it’s so smeared as to be ilegible, can they refuse to take the payment then? The aforementioned rules lawyer to the rulers lawyer indeicated if he couldn’t read it, it wasn’t signed and he can’t accept an unsigned card. Wondering if this is legal or not. In this case I offered to show ID but to no avail and I had to come back later when I had cash.
@lesspopmorefizz: Mostly out of laziness. I especially like retailers that now don’t require a signature even if the purchase is small enough. It speeds up the transaction time, lowering checkout lines and generally making my life easier.
I don’t think I’ll ever complain that a merchant didn’t check ID if my card got stolen. After all, isn’t that why you have a zero-liability guarantee? Report the card missing and there’s no problem.
Also, a lot of retailers will copy down your info and add you to their mailing list. Very uncool.
I always compliment the clerk for checking my ID. Why should I get mad when they are trying to protect me from someone using my card illegally?
@nursethalia:
thats a strawman argument. If a store has a policy then the store needs to follow it at all times. If I am forced to abide by it, then I’d be doubly pissed when I see that the company can’t be bothered to follow it’s own rules.
One doesn’t invalidate the other.
my husbands debit card has his picture on it. cashiers start to ask for id, and then are like… well i know this is yours, your picture is on it. its nice, and they really pay attention, one cashier was going to refuse to sell me something when i used the card, but he was right beside me and was like “yea, shes my wife, she can have a pretty for herself on my card”
@dweebster: Those clerks aren’t government agents, so they’re not barred from it.
@Wormfather: Goody for you. Still doesn’t change my experience.
@Eyebrows McGee: That’s for driving, though, not just walking down the street. You have to be licensed and insured in most states to legally drive, but you need nothing to just be out in public other than driving etc.
Your SSN is required in some government transactions too…
@Jaysyn:
Huh?
Welp, someone isn’t getting a tip!
@nursethalia:
Do you actually know anyone who has said that? I choose not to show ID, I have zero liability when someone uses my card with out my permission so I really could care less.
@specialed5000: Facts are not a strong point of the Consumerist’s comment areas.
I consider “I am not going to show my ID because I don’t have to. Its my ID. So there!” petty. There are so many more important things you can take a stand for. In fact, just about everything is more important than this.
And to think that just because someone is working at IHOP, they want your identity so they will risk their jobs to write down your information is just stupid. Get your elitist heads out of your collective asses and wise up. These are the same people who will say their social security number loud and proud with about 20 people standing around. Dumbasses.
@AnderBobo: I too think that being so righteous in the “I refuse to show my ID b/c it says I don’t have to, how DARE YOU” argument is kind of old and annoying.
Sure, until the idiot behind the counter memorizes your driver’s license number, address, etc, and uses that information to steal your identity. It happens all the time. This is why people are being more and more cautious about who they show their ID to. If you have no legal need to see my ID, you don’t get to see it, and IHOP has no legal need. This protects me should your employees be dishonest.
I live like two blocks from that corporate headquarters in Glendale… want me to go bang on the door and demand they write you back?
@SadSam: And then everyone else in line gets to laugh their asses off at you. Who knows, maybe you left something on the counter that the person behind you wants. But I am sure you don’t care. Trust me, the company will not miss your business.
@jimconsumer: They’re far more likely to skim your credit card number. If you’re that paranoid about dishonest employees, you really should be paying cash.
@nweaver: Not true. They can only charge it back to the merchant if the signatures don’t match. Which is why they aren’t supposed to accept your card if it isn’t signed. I worked in the fraud control department of a major credit card. Showing ID can in fact endanger you further and open you up to ID theft.
I don’t show my ID, which is usually not an issue, but if the merchant insists, I don’t make the purchase. Thankfully it’s never happened in a restaurant. The guy is in the right, and IHOP is wrong.
@Buran: Well, sure, but my point was that even when it’s “required” they still give you 10 days if you don’t happen to have it on you, in response to all the “who doesn’t carry their ID?” folks.
I can certainly imagine walking to the nearby Blockbuster or Walgreens without my ID, and God knows the Walgreens IDs me when I try to buy toilet paper!
This happened to me, too!
Last week I called to place an order to go at the IHOP in Brooklyn. I wanted to pay in cash, but they told me I had to give them a credit card number b/c some people order food but never pick it up. My debit card account’s overdrawn (whoops), but I have a copy of a family credit card, so I just gave them that since they insisted on something.
When I arrived at the restaurant to pick up my grilled cheese ($7), I waited at the counter for several minutes until a hostess came and asked to see my card and an ID. I said I didn’t have ID to match the card because it was a family card.
The hostess told me that what I was doing was illegal and she would have to call management! I offered to pay in cash, but she gave me a hassle and said again that it was illegal and that she had told me on the phone to have an ID ready.
A manager came out, and she too told me that what I was doing was illegal and that I needed an ID. Then she asked how come I couldn’t just pay in cash? I said I had offered to, but the hostess nixed the idea. The hostess (who was still standing right there) said, “No, I didn’t.” I walked out at that point and left my food behind. So rude!
@Buran: Oh, and my SS card (not number, card) was NOT required for that transaction. Says right there on the I-9 — you can give one item from column A (passport) as proof of ID & residence and proof of right to work, OR you can give one from column B (ID & residence; drivers license) and one from column C (right to work; SS card, work visa, etc.). It even says right there on the damn form that employers can’t limit which forms of ID employees can provide as long as they’re on the list.
The woman was a serious hyper-bitch about it, too, or I might have given in. But once she was bitchy to me, I got all adamant. I’ve NEVER used my SS card for I-9 purposes, and I’ve been working since I was 16. She just kept making shit up about how it was required by law. Every time I talked to her she had a new fake reason.
(And what possibly annoyed me most of all was that I had made the point to her that I was a lawyer and I was well-aware of the law, and she didn’t care. But when I finally said, 8 months into the battle, that I had retained legal counsel, THEN she’s all “Oh, let me fix this for you.” Why should the threat of outside counsel work when the threat of ME BEING MY OWN TICKED OFF COUNSEL DOESN’T? GAAAAAA!)
Honestly, if they’d just do away with those asinine customer swuiped card readers that everyone clamored for only a few years back so many problems would be solved. Most of the time it’s just dumb because they cashier see you swipe a card, then hands you a receipt to sign, and in many cases doesn’t even give the receipt a glance to double check. In fact, recently when asked my boyfriend produced his ID and apologized for the name being hard to read through the wallet’s plastic sheild. The clerk told him that it wasn;t a problem, she just wanted to make sure his ID picture looked like him. yeah, now there’s a GREAT way to prevent identity theft!
Seriously, get rid of the customer swipe machines, go back to handing over your card, signing it, and the clerk verifying your signatures and THEN handing back the card. Geez, I remember the days in retail when we got our asses chewed out because we ASKED for ID, not because we didn’t.
This is from in.gov, but the information is general and applies anyway:
[www.in.gov]
“You can be asked for ID only if you proffer a card that isn’t signed on the back. Then the merchant can ask for identification and require you to sign the card immediately.
A merchant can ask for your address when you order by telephone. There it’s used to authorize the card, absent a signature….
MasterCard wants to hear about merchants who break their rules. Send the name and address and an account of what happened to MasterCard International, c/o Radio City Station, P. O. Box 1288, New York, NY 10101. The merchant’s bank will get a stiff letter, ordering it to investigate and bring the offending store into line – or pay a $2,000 fine.
Visa enforces the same rules as MasterCard. ‘When we hear about a violation, we ask the bank that signed the merchant to get together with the merchant and see that the practice is stopped,’ Visa representative states. To report a merchant, send a letter to the bank that issued your Visa card.
American Express also prohibits merchants from asking for IDs. ‘All a merchant is supposed to do is take an imprint, make sure the signature matches and swipe the card through the terminal, to get authorization.’”
@lesspopmorefizz: Showing your ID to someone who has handled your card puts all the data needed to steal your identity, at least as far as online transactions go, in the hands of the person you showed your ID to.
First of all, I NEVER accept cards that say SEE ID. That’s idiotic, I don’t care what your reasoning is. I’m not a fraud detective and I flat out don’t care. Nor, does any other minimum wage cashier. In this case, just show the ID though and be done with it, really…
@Leiterfluid: Thank you! As an ex retail slave, I hated when people would present an unsigned card because it’s “more safe” than a signed card and then complain when I said the card agreement says it is not valid unless signed.
@Pro-Pain: if you’re not a fraud detective, then why bother looking for the signature in the first place?
@ cookmefud – you got me.
Now if they want an ID when you pay cash, that’s a problem.
Add me to the list of people who think refusing to show ID is arrogant and selfish (since it often impacts others around you). Refusing to surrender your ID, on the other hand, is completely justifiable.
What’s strange about this whole thing is the idea that a criminal who is using a credit card fraudulently would be taking it to IHOP so he could steal a $12 meal.
Here’s a tip for you: if fraud is intended, they’re going for something they can pawn or resell. Electronics, cameras, jewelry. Big ticket items, not trivia. The criminal will charge all he can as quickly as he can because he knows that the card will be disabled very quickly. They’re not going to be sitting at an IHOP for an hour when they could be using the same time to run that card to the limit at the mall…
This tale is just some self-important people at a second-rate restaurant taking matters into their own hands when a customer doesn’t submit to their demands.
Is the the same website that get’s outraged when retail stores stop customers to check the receipt? We get a flood of posts saying it’s against our rights to show a receipt.
Yet we shouldn’t blink an eye when places want us to show ID for a purchase? We should just do it because it’s not a big deal.
I’m confused. So we’re suppose to stand up for our rights on one topic, but completely bend over for another? What gives?
As someone who has called someone in for theft of service, I am very interested in how the police handled the situation at the scene.
In my case, I was allowed to remove all parts I installed and they did not require me to reinstall the defective parts I removed..leaving system as I found it, not working but not sabotaged either ( I had left the defective parts for homeowner to see as I always do).
MC/Visa agreement is very specific and the manager wanting to quote store policy was just wrong. The store policy arises from the fact they have very little protections and they wish to keep down their costs because they do not have benefit of address verification, but they can require their merchant services company to insist on the the CSC for all transactions that would bring down their costs some and perhaps give managment a clue. The policy of presenting ID’s came at a time when CC security was very low and fraud was very high, it has been outlawed in some states and as this poster pointed out, against the very Merchant Policies.
It’s an IHOP and for the most part, this is not the place big-money perpetrators of fraud target.
@Jaysyn:
What law are you reffering to that requires you to have an ID in Florida? I live here and have never heard such a thing
I also need to add, most government agencies cannot and will not accept a card that simply says, “see ID” in signature strip. This is a violation of your user agreement and as we know, we do expect the governement (local or otherwise) to know the rules and follow them.
You can sign the card and add, “see Photo ID” if this makes you feel more secure but no agency that has signed a merchant agreement can in good faith accept a card simply signed “See Photo ID.” Those that do, I guarantee they are employees who aren’t even aware of what is included in the merchant agreement nor do they even know that merchants are required to pay percentages for each and every transaction, and that percentage flucates if debit card, corporate card, with address verfication, without address verification (which is why you can’t use your credit card at high ticket item places such as car dealers over a certain amount just so you can get your “miles”.)
Credit cards are in in business of making money, and not just on those who carry a balance but from the merchants who agree to accept them in the first place.
lol they also do that in 99 cent stores Or in the 99 cent store they require that you purchase is a minimum of 20 dollars All of the above is against MC and Visa policy. If I want to buy a 99 cent toy I have the right What “usually” happens is that the credit card company say either abide by the rules or you cant use our services anymore.
@omyard: But they are not checking the receipt at IHOP they want ID and Walmart does not ask for ID when you use your card.
@Craig: If someone is going to use a stolen card they might even use a fake id hmmm The store is covered in case of fraud so they need to just take the card and keep it moving .
@nursethalia: Or just use the cerdit card that has your photo on the card .
@Pro-Pain: Oh yea I forgot about that If the card is not signed the store should ask for ID This was a method that people would use in case their card was lost or stolen .
I think Visa etc. should change their policy to require and ID. That would end this issue and make the cards safer.
Let’s compare this to something else, that we are more familiar with:
As a black male, I’ve been stopped by the cops on more than a few occasions. I’ve been asked dozens of questions and asked for ID, etc. All for walking down the street wearing sweats and “looking suspicious”.
In everyone of those cases, I had a choice:
1. Assert my rights and refuse to show my ID to the cops. Possibly get a badge number and report to God knows who. Go through a lot of drama so that some cop gets a slap on the wrist.
2. Do what the hell they say, and go home.
If you want to be the Rosa Parks of Master Card, then fine. But, you don’t conform then go bitch about it later. That’s my stance.
File a suit in small claims court for the maximum amount against IHOP and the manager for this. You’ll win a couple thousand bucks and odds are the manager will be fired.
The person checking you out or running the credit card is more likely than not the lowest paid employee in the store and well below poverty levels (I’m looking at you Walmart). Would much more likely to steal your information from your ID to make more money and we all know what high standards of character these retailers hire (again, looking at you Walmart)…..I think I will keep my ID yo myself from now on thank you.
As a person working in retail/management, I find it funny when people complain about having to show ID.
Things I’ve seen while working…
1) Family members using other family members creditcards. (obviously having your kids buy a few hundred worth of liquor isn’t so bad is it??)
2) Someone who obviously doesn’t own that creditcard. And when pressed, cannot show ID. Except an empty women’s wallet filled with creditcards.
And the best one I’ve seen.
3) Customer’s card declined the first transaction we ran. Then after trying to run a different card we find out, the second card was not theirs. We checked twice for ID, since we noticed the names were different.
As I said it’s funny for people to complain about this. I try to prevent fraud at the first level, not facilitate growth.
btw. Out of the hundreds of transactions we run (per month), I’ve had very few chargebacks….well unless you count those where their plant died…..*It ain’t my fault you don’t water your damn plant
*
@Saboth: Really? Cold war… Germany? What?
@Saboth:
) Germany comparisons…
Ironically, showing ID at random times is a regular part of life in contemporary East Jerusalem, even for Americans. So much for the Nazi (or Cold War