Some debt collectors are mighty persistent.
NPR says that a 77-year-old Tampa woman, Joan Kennedy Biddle, is suing to collect on a $300 loan that her great-grandfather made to the city of Tampa 147 years ago, during the Civil War. That modest debt (with interest) has grown to a little under $23 million dollars.
Biddle is in possession of an IOU signed by Tampa’s mayor promising to repay her ancestor for money borrowed to purchase supplies to be used in defense of the city of Tampa. The IOU is dated 1861, after Florida joined the Confederacy. When asked why she’s trying to collect the debt now, Biddle told NPR: “Better late than never.”
In defense of itself, the City of Tampa came up with a rather impressive list of reasons why the debt is not valid, not least of which is the fact that it was payable in Confederate dollars — a currency that no longer exists. It seems that Ms. Biddle’s IOU may do better on Antiques Roadshow than it will in a court room.
Tampa Woman Sues City for Unpaid Civil War Loan [NPR]
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What a DOUCHE! They should let her run up a bill with some ambulance chaser before denying her claim.
I swear… some people have waaaaay too much time on their hands!
Well, if nothing else, she just increased the sales price of a 150 year old IOU by about 100%.
@DeltaPurser: She’s 77. She has plenty of time.
They should pay her off with Convederate $50 dollar bills which are going for $36.07 on ebay.
Confederate
@MickeyMoo: I had the exact same thought when reading this.
@tomok97: Worse; Siam still exists. They changed the name to Thailand, but there was no political change. It’s still the same country.
@ClayS:
Ooooo…. good thinking.
@spinachdip:
I’ve always been amused that the acronym SOL works both for Statutes of limitations and S#!+ Out of Luck.
@CumaeanSibyl:
I don’t think Tampa is a State. The City is the plaintiff, not the state.
@tk427: 23 mil of them? Heck, doesn’t sound too bad a trade-off to me. But I do doubt whether there are enough of them still in existance.
@edosan: I just witnessed the Wisdom of Solomon. Here on Consumerist!
@tomok97:
its actually different : Siam does still exist in the form of Thailand. It never stopped to exist, just changed its name after the aboloshment of the absoute monarchy (thai means free)
A better example would be the Estonia in 1941, which was conquered by the Soviet Union and then incorporated into the SU.
Unlike the Dollars ( Federal Reserve Notes ) that we have in our pockets, If the Confederate Dollar was, at that time, backed in silver and/or gold, then a Confederate Dollar isn’t “worth zero” ; it’s directly equivilent and convertable to silver/and/oor gold e.g. each Confederate Dollar could be exchanged on demand for 1 ounce of silver. Just look at the U.S. Mint’s current Silve Eagle 1 Dollar coin, which is an ounce of silver – it’s worth about 18 paper FRN Dollars. If anything, Tampa owes 300 ounces of silver, plus interest if applicable.
I heard the NPR story. Apart from the ‘loan in Confederate dollars’ argument, they had two other pretty good reasons to invalidate the debt:
1. The US Constitution protects against having to pay debt incurred for insurrection against the United States
2. The city of Tampa that incurred the debt is not the same entity as modern Tampa; that city went bankrupt and was dissolved, not to be reincorporated for another 15 years
@Crazytree:
If the debt is time-barred, the accrual of interest is irrelevant, I’d think.
If the SOL bell has tolled, you can charge whatever interest you want for eternity, but you can’t get a judgment and you can’t attach the debtor’s assets, wages or accounts.
Charge a zillion percent if you like; it won’t make any difference.
@banmojo: I have to think that is the real reason she’s doing this as opposed to actually believing they’ll pay her anything.
The government made a bunch of promises it didn’t keep back then. She has no reason to expect there’ll be an exception made for her.
Hello, statute of limitations?
@spinachdip:
The law was passed after the debt was incurred though. A lawyer (which I’m not) may have a better call on if that means the debt is still valid because it existed before the law or if they had the listed time frame from the date the law was enacted to collect.
The city should pay her back, but not $23 million. IOUs don’t accrue interest, normally…
Figure out the exchange rate at the time of the loan, convert that into US dollars. Then account for inflation.
I have no idea what the exchange rate was back then, but for the sake of producing something, let’s say it was 1.0. $300 would then be worth $10,762.02 today. This would not be an unreasonably large amount to pay out.
@spinachdip: Less than 5 Saturnian years have passed since 1861.
Of course, if you use Saturnian years, a bit less interest is owned.
@Candyman: The U.S. Constitution doesn’t acknowledge cities as something distinct from a state, so that amendment should apply to Tampa. (If the definition of “state” didn’t include cities, the Bill of Rights would be in serious trouble.)
@Crazytree: cigars, tons and tons of cigars
A few things….
the amendment RE: insurrection debt is about debt of the United States, not any state or any political subdivision of a state. Federalism!
Exchange rate: Varied greatly during the war as the confederacy overprinted currency and drove inflation through the roof.
Sounds like a municipal bond issue — interest is applicable.
SoL: Would be based on the past 1860 statute unless current statute explicitly notes all PAST debts as being held to a new limit.
It doesn’t matter because if the city has re-incorporated, the US protects businesses from paying out debts. (The US system is very pro-business and anti-worker that way.) I know because I was screwed out of $9,000 by a company that simply re-incorporated itself to avoid paying out money owed to freelancers. If that can happen today, it certainly applies in this case: that Tampa is different incorporated entity than it was back then and therefore the woman would be trying to collect on a incorporated entity that no longer exists. In other words: there really is not defendant.
@guspaz: “The city should pay her back, but not $23 million. IOUs don’t accrue interest, normally…”
That’s what I was curious about. Normally, wouldn’t an interest rate like that have to be specified on the IOU and if it isn’t, then I would assume they just owe her $300. Where did she pull this interest rate? Or is it inflation? And if it’s inflation, then confederate dollars didn’t inflate…
To correct myself, confederate dollars are worth less now than they were then. I’m not into economics so I don’t know the proper terminology. But as others have pointed out, the exchange rate is miserable.