When reader Steve went to Wal-Mart to buy Rock Star for his daughter, he reluctantly presented the cashier with a state issued ID containing just his picture, name and signature. Steve’s job is to consult with law enforcement about identity theft, so he’s more careful than the average bear. For one thing, he only likes to show his state issued-ID. The cashier, however, refused to accept it as a valid ID, and tense negotiations ensued. When Steve said he’d call corporate about their ID checking policy, the cashier refused to hand back Steve’s credit card or ID until Steve spoke to an in store CSM. That’s right, after he complained, the cashier held his credit card hostage. Check out the gory details, inside.
Dear Consumerist,
I stopped in my local East York Wal-Mart in PA on 3/22/08 around 12:00 pm to pick up an Easter gift for my daughter. I went to the electronics department to pick up the Rock Star video game for the PS3. They did not have any on the sales floor so I asked a sales associate named John if there was any in the back. John went to the back and brought one out. John told me that the purchase must be made in the electronics department. As if I would have walked out with it without paying for it. I guess this policy only affects the PS3 version of the game. If I wanted a 360 version I could have picked it up off the shelf and paid for it up front since I did have some other shopping to do.
No big deal I will just pay for it in the electronics department as I was told. So John rang me up and paid with a my signed credit card. I signed the signature pad at the register. John gave a brief glance to the back of my credit card and asked to see an ID.
A little bit about me: I have worked with credit card processing and acceptance for a government agency for several years. And also worked with law enforcement agencies in regards to credit card and identity theft. And also provided training to them on this very subject.
I know that the less personal information you give out in a store or online the less likely your credit card or identity will be stolen. So I have a State Issued ID what has my picture, my name, and my signature. Everything that is needed to confirm that is my card. But, all of the other info such as address, birth date, license number has been blocked out for security reasons and are not used to confirm the rightful card holder. Since some of those things can be used with the credit card number and CVS number to complete a fraudulent credit card transaction.
John told me “This is not a valid ID and you can not use it”. I told him that was no where in any credit card processing agreement that asks you to view a persons address, DOB, or licensee number before completing a credit card sale. So he called over another sales associate and asked him. He said basically the same thing probably out of not wanting John to look bad. So I explained that I would be informing Wal-Mart headquarters about this to make sure this is their policy. John said “I will have to call a CSM”. Now keep in mind that I already paid for the item and he at this would not give me back my credit card or ID.
After waiting around for about 5 minutes I made a decision that I now regret. I showed him another ID that had all my info on it. I just wanted get out of there and do the rest of my shopping. Now John tells me that since I will be calling Wal-Mart headquarters I have wait for a CSM. I was like “WHAT?” John will not give my credit card and 2 forms of ID back until he talks to a CSM. A few minutes later a CSM showed up and basically agreed with John. Then John said “since I showed another ID it was okay “
I regret giving up most of my personal information. I should have stood my ground. I did think about just leaving with my purchase and calling the police to get my credit card and ID back. But the police have better things to do.
Regards
Steve
Steve is being way too nice. It’s completely unacceptable for a store to refuse to let you leave, or to coerce you by holding your card. We’d suggest Steve float the idea of police involvement next time, but there’s no telling how John would react to this news. Flying tackle? Citizen’s arrest? Hopefully, Steve didn’t let John’s bullying phase him and escalated his complaint once out of arm’s reach.
(photo:SIRBERUS)
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Thats weird, when I worked at walmart we were trained to ignore the check signature prompts.
A state-issued ID needs the following to be considered valid:
1. Name
2. License/non-driver ID number¹
3. Signature
4. Picture
5. Expiration date
6. Date of Birth
7. Security features²
8. Height and Weight³
“John” should have asked for a second ID because the one the OP presented is not considered valid. “John” had no right to confiscate any of it as it is considered the OP’s personal property. The most “John” could have done when presented an invalid ID is refuse the sale.
¹ In WA state: year of birth + last two digits of ID number = 100. Other states have similar “coding”. It’s done to detect forgeries/alterations.
² State Seal, Holograms, U/V inks, etc.
³ These are used if you don’t match your picture. At worst, your height will be correct.
Ever hear of Conversion? It’s the civil version of theft. You might not want to go to court over it, but it Is an option.
I have to say though, when someone refuses to hand over your property, especially something like a credit-card, why isn’t your , or at the very least second, thought “I’m calling the cops”?
WHO CARES. There are a billion stupid employees.
But this is not corporate policy…
You are slandering WalMart with the title by misrepresenting the issue. You are lying to propagate your own agenda.
@fhic: Who’s to say the ID behind the plastic in your wallet isn’t a bogus color copy on flimsy paper? That’s why that won’t work if you’re trying to get into a bar/club, buy alcohol, or buy cigarettes. We’re asked (by the state) to physically handle the ID so we can make sure it’s authentic and unaltered. As I said above, under no conditions are we allowed to keep it. Even if it’s a fake, we have to return it to you and just refuse the sale/admittance.
What’s hilarious is that unless your state requires you to present a birth certificate, other pieces of foundation ID and corroboration from certifiable third parties (your doctor, your lawyer) a driver’s license is useless as an ID. In fact, it’s not really an ID at all. It’s just a permit to drive.
I agree that the title for this thread is misleading. The protagonist didn’t complain, it was the cashier who actually did the complaining.
Walmart sucks and they are now in the process of suing a company they previously contracted to film their board meetings.
walmart
[www.walmart.com]
For once and for all. I, too, have worked for a credit card processor and am intimately familiar with Visa/MC regs.
CHECK ID/SEE ID is a COMPLETELY VALID use of the signature panel. In fact, it is specifically mentioned in the regs as a good way for a cardholder to protect him/herself.
However, if this method is used, the cardholder must, upon merchant request, provide a government-issue ID that depicts the legal signature of the cardholder. If the signatures match, end of story.
@Trojan69:
Try that at the post office. The clerk there will not allow you to use any credit card that does not bear a valid signature. Check ID is not valid in the eyes of USPS
i’m surprised i haven’t read this here yet…
here’s the thing – rock band is rated “mature”, which means that the cashier has to enter a d.o.b. into the system to allow the sale. they started doing this at wal-mart religiously after the whole “hot coffee” incident & the crusade by the likes of joe lieberman & hillary clinton to get the government involved in enforcing the rating system.
the OP could be 90 & they’ll still ask for his ID. i tend to think that is why there was such a problem when he showed an ID w/ no d.o.b. on it. & john exasperated the issue b/c he couldn’t communicate that effectively.
failing to check ID on a “mature” game sale at some stores is grounds for dismissal – john probably just didn’t want to lose his job.
From the Visa and Mastercard info above, it is against the merchant agreements to reject a transaction just because someone will not show ID. However, in three different stores I went to over the weekend, there are signs at the registers that state, “Have your ID ready if using a credit card.” It seems like they shouldn’t even have those signs up if they can’t reject a sale based on refusing to show an ID.
@MyCokesBiggerThanYours: Right. You get your checks from Bentonville weekly?
GETTING YOUR MONEY. That’s “Corporate” policy.
@humphrmi: “Retraining”? Hardly. Either a pat on the back or they’ll ignore it.
@Trojan69:
“CHECK ID/SEE ID is a COMPLETELY VALID use of the signature panel. In fact, it is specifically mentioned in the regs as a good way for a cardholder to protect him/herself.”
Please refer to Visa’s Risk Management document found here, specifically the ‘Dealing with Unsigned Cards’ section.
[usa.visa.com]
Visa does not endorse this whatsoever.
@Trojan69: Don’t come here often, do you?
When I worked retail, I ALWAYS checked ID whether it said to or not. I may be in the minority here, but this guy handed her an idea that could have been fake for all she knew and she suspected that he was using someone’s stolen card and got a manager involved.
I don’t see the problem. It’s what I would have wanted if someone was trying to use my card. Use unrecognized IDs and expect trouble.
Any store that requires an ID to purchase something besides beer loses me as a customer. 99.9% of the time the clerk withdraws the request because she/he has already rung up the purchase and doesn’t want to deal with voiding and restocking etc. .01% of the time I walk out and leave my planned purchases behind.
If you don’t like these policies, showing ID at purchase or showing receipt at the door, don’t shop at these stores. 99.9% of these products are carried at other stores.
“A state issued ID is property of the state.”
Does anyone have a legal cite for this assumption? If so, then why am I required to jump through hoops and pay money for something that I don’t even own?
My card and ID don’t leave my hands if I can help it. Places that have the card scanner on the customer side of the counter are preferable. I don’t pull my ID out of my wallet, they can see it through the plastic window and I will show them the back of my ccard if they want to check the signature. I use self check out whenever possible. Places that I know have stupid policies I either avoid or pay cash.
@b612markt: This is bull, unfortunately. Just last week I had a merchant refuse to complete my $5.00 purchase ($5.00 people!) because I’d left my DL in the car and didn’t want to get it. The manager refused to budge even though I cited those exact terms from Mastercard.
I did not cave in and get my ID, nor did I buy the product from that store. Got home, called Mastercard to complain, and the customer service drone hooked me up to a supervisor who explained that the merchant has the right to refuse any sale for whatever reason because “Mastercard doesn’t dictate store policy”. When I asked about that specific clause of the merchant agreement, she said that “merchant agreements are confidential” and she couldn’t get into specifics with me, but basically, it’s the merchant’s call. So you people who think Mastercard has got your back are dead wrong, just like I was.
In all fairness though, both the store manager and the Mastercard CSRs were unfailingly polite. I still won’t ever shop at that store again and Mastercard has also lost my business for the forseeable future. I have no problem with their terms, but they should update and clarify these policies to their cardholders.
@MercuryPDX: NYS driver licenses do not have weight on them. It’s in your DMV record, but not on the ID.
But I have a state-issued ID (as a NYS employee) which doesn’t have anything more than an ID number, a photo, and the name of the institution. Would it serve as valid ID for alcohol purchases? No (no DOB). But for card verification, it should be just fine – it has my name and a picture that looks like me.
@mac-phisto:
Rockband is rated T for Teen. Where did you think it was rated M? They have to censor out some of the lyrics for christ sake.
I find it odd that some stores require two forms of ID if you want to give them your money or your credit card. I’ve been in several Federal buildings post 9/11 and have never given up anything more than my name and who I work for. I’ve also never had my parts boxes searched by anybody. Aparrently getting the computers fixed is more important than security.
@starrion:
Not true.
I use my unsigned card at the post office every time I go and have never been refused. Never.
Gave up your dignity. To a walmart employee. Man, what has happened to our country?
Demand a free year of credit watch for their attempt to steal your ID. If they say they didn’t, say “how do I know that? Heck, how does anyone that shops here know that. maybe the media should know that.”
@k8supergrover:
I have never heard of that before.
I have had both a Massachusettes State ID and a Florida State ID and both had all my information and there was no option to “block” the information out.
And If I were do “block” the information out myself, I would fear that would be a little suspicious… if not illegal.
I’ve never heard of the option to only have an ID with name and picture, but I think it’s pretty awesome.
Thankfully, right now, I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Due to the large presence of the University and everyone’s trust in the school, my school ID passes for identification purposes for everything except bar going. I even use my school ID to access my bank account.
@WV.Hillbilly: very true. I’m not able to find the info on the USPS website, but every post office I’ve been to requires a signed card. Perhaps you’ve just gotten lucky with your post office?
It is sad that one dumbass cashier can cause all this fuss. He obviously was NOT properly trained by Wal-Mart.
@EricaKane: Regardless, if the OP is informed about the merchant agreements and the ways credit card information can be (ab)used, then he is an informed consumer.
Since so many people are victims of fradulent credit card transactions and identity theft, it’s hardly “paranoid” these days. It’s not paranoia if there really are people after that information.
@MrEvil: this is mostly liquor stores that need to confirm age with the ID, not just with the credit card being used.
@BaronVonCrogs: yeah – strike that comment…where the hell did i see that it was rated M?
that’s what i get for rolling out of bed an hour early on monday…
PA State ID’s are identical to DL’s, they just are yellow and say that it’s not a DL.
This was my hometown until recently, and I knew a few guys who had worked security at that walmart. They were often hit with con-artists and fraud.
All that being said, it’s really both of their fault.
Walmart should have never asked for ID unless his credit card said to on the back, which in that case he was asking for it.
You can’t expect a cashier at walmart when handed a defaced ID to not refuse it. These are employees who are given little instruction and even smaller pay.
If this guy does work with gov’t agencies he should be able to work on getting an ID without any of that information on it. The amish around here sometimes have state id’s with no pictures on them?
By defacing his DOB, I know he would get refused at any liquor store. They would most likely take it from him. All liquor stores in PA are owned by the state, thus we call them “State Stores”
I lived in PA for a couple years and had non-drivers license IDs there. There was never any option to get information blacked out. Methinks the OP is a paranoid motherfucker.
@Trojan69: You are wrong. MC does not allow requiring you to show ID.
Me thinks Mr “Steve” is a bit of a drama queen. How many times has anyone here shown their license as an ID and had them look at it long enough to actually glean any info from it. For most, it’s more of a formality. My license is in my wallet, behind a plastic sleeve, and the only time i’ve been asked to take it out is by Barney Fife of the TSA. If you’re that paranoid about showing ID, perhaps you should pay with cash! If Mr “Steve” is really in the business he says he’s in, then he’d have the actual figures of how many have had their identities stolen in this manner.
@Frank_Trapasso:
One of the tinfoil hat jobs maybe?
Either way, it’s lose/lose. First the OP altered his ID, which is illegal. The PFY manning the counter confiscated his cards, which is 8 ways illegal and could have put him back in the jobless line of the management used their heads for thinking instead of being like bulls in a china shop.
Someone needs to dig up their fax number, send them the regs from the card companies regarding IDs, and info regarding LEGAL forms of ID for that state as well. Oh, and CC the works along with this story to Home Office, Arkansas
@m_m:
THis is what always surprises me, it’s pretty clear that this can’t be done.
I guess people either need to suck it up nancy and do whatever they can to use credit or start complaining to Visa.
The problem is, Wal-Mart is a behemoth. What’s Visa gonna do? Wal-mart will just stop accepting their cards. They do it at Sam’s Club already. If they view the fee as too high, they won’t accept the card.
A while back I got a notice from my bank indicating that I should NEVER provide a phone number or personal information when I use my Visa Card, as it promotes identity theft. The letter specifically stated that they (the bank) were issuing me credit, not the merchant.
@mac-phisto: Nope. Rock Band is rated “T” for Teen:
[www.gamespot.com]
Is there anyway to verify one-sided stories that are submitted? Or do updates?
Okay, my question is he says he has a state issued ID card with information blocked out. This leads me to believe he did it himself. Doesn’t this invalidate the card? It would be great if the government issued ID cards with little information other than picture, name, and signature; but it’s not the case.
Of course, if the card comes that way then it shouldn’t be an issue. But I’m pretty sure the good people at Wal-Mart see a lot of state issued ID cards and wouldn’t have a problem accepting it unless it were somehow altered.
I woulda have been connected to the police before that CSM ever picked up the phone.
Maybe I’m in a bad mood or I don’t care anymore … quit shopping at walmart. Problems solved.
@MercuryPDX: yeah, the good baron already caught me on that & i redacted here.
1) Those public rules are not the complete set of rules. The complete VISA rules are bound to a NDA. In the complete set of rules a vendor is responsible for security measures and will be responsible for products and services purchased with stolen credit cards if the vendor is lax in their security measures.
2) VISA rules are superceded by the rules of the Merchant Bank that processes the cc’s for the vendor. Merchant Bank rules are bound to a NDA as well.
3) My Merchant Bank clearly states the vendor is responsible for products and services purchased with a stolen credit card UNLESS the vendor views state issued photo ID’s with each purchase. The word “views” should be huge letters as my Merchant Bank rules forbid the vendor from recording the information of a state issued ID.
@Imaginary_Friend: You do realize that this is to protect you and others from fraud, right? They’re not writing down the ID information. They want to look at the photo and compare it to the name on the card and to your face. That’s it.
What store was this, so I can thank them for helping prevent fraud?
I’ve been a victim, more than once, of card fraud due to merchants not giving a damn about whether the card being used is really being used by the legit cardholder.
You’re complaining about a few extra seconds… while I lost quite a bit more.
@MyCokesBiggerThanYours:
No, I believe the word you’re looking for is “defaming.” Thing is, corporations can’t be defamed.
Thanks for playing, though.
@chemmy: If you already paid you would have been within your rights to grab your stuff and walk out. It’s your stuff now, not theirs.
@WV.Hillbilly: Almost all of the post offices in my area will refuse a card that says “Check ID.” A few clerks will allow it, but the vast majority absolutely refuse.
I now carry one “Check ID” card and one with my signature; the latter I use almost exclusively at the post office.