"Our question: can security personnel really arrest suspected shoplifters?"

Sort of. I'm pretty sure it falls under citizens arrest, in which case they have to be damn careful the guy is actually stealing, and in how they detain him, etc...

Mall cops are usually empowered to do more then store security (least in my neck of the woods). A lot of the mall police were regular cops who were working a second job, so that may explain it too.

answer to your question: no. those dudes are getting fired, and then possibly sued. garden-variety battery, possibly false imprisonment.

Security personnel in California can in fact arrest criminals, just like any other citizen. They can place a citizen under a citizen's arrest and wait for police. But, if it turns out the didn't have reasonable suspicion or that they acted negligently, they can probably be sued or charged themselves as a result of the death. IANAL but I can say that in these situations, it would have been best to let him go, write down his plate numbers, and give the en route cops the opportunity to make the arrest and then deal with the death (if it occurred).

I am no lawyer, but: [en.wikipedia.org]

There is a relevant phrase there: "Detention of any person is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property. The key distinction between arrest and detainment is that a detainee may not be transported without consent."

So it looks like they can hold the person until the police arrive.

The fear the "arresting" security personal need to worry about is false imprisonment; as long as they are willing to take the risk of arrest themselves then they probably can. Hopefully though, a very large lawsuit from the fat guy's family will help restrain corporate rent-a-cops in the future.

But the most important Q is... did they rifle thru the corpse's pockets to make sure he can show his receipt?

PS. I agree with most other posts - if there's probable cause, which is exactly what everybody says with the receipt checking stories.

Yes, they have to have actual video evidence of the man walking out the door. That's the big issue, when does it become shoplifting? If I pick something up and put it in my pocket, there is no real indication that I'm going to steal that item. If I walk past the cash registers without paying for said item, then it becomes shoplifting.

Unfortunately, by the time you're past the cash registers, it's too late for most security to catch up and detain you. I remember working at Borders, the rule was, if you see someone shoplift, just remember what they look like. That's it.

If a security personal attempts to arrest me, all I have to do is trip and fall. Bleeding gives you bonus points. Then the store is liable for any of my medical expenses, which believe me, would come out more then the cost of a crummy hat.

But technically, it's not stealing until he leaves the store. I know in Connecticut that's the way it goes.

@Wormfather: Part of the law has something to do with concealing... I'm sure one of our resident experts can tell us more about the two parts of the law that make up "shoplifting"

So the question here is "should a store employee or security personel be able to detain a shoplifting suspect?) Before you answer, ask yourself another question: What if "I" owned a jewelry store and I saw an alleged shoplifter stealing?

I feel that the shopkeeper has every right to protect their property. But, in the event there is forcible detainment they better have the goods on the shoplifter or risk getting their ass sued.

@한국어/조선말: I've been watched closely and followed before when I have been shopping. Because I am younger, and I would freak if anyone tried to detain me. It's better to just monitor and call the police after that person leaves the store. It's not worth someone getting hurt over a hat.

왜 조선말? 재미있어.

With all due respect:

Has anyone even considered that this man was 400 pounds and his unhealthy weight "may" have in fact contributed to his death ?

If he was being detained for shoplifting ( and assuming he did in fact shoplift ) I would imagine his heart rate was up.

They have not clarified in the story if 1. he was actually shoplifting & 2. What the cause of death was pending results.

@Steve Trachsel, Ace:
Like say... Gary Coleman?

[www.livevideo.com]

@Pasketti: come back later once you've found a real resource.

@TheBigLewinski: It would probably be easier to file a claim with their insurance company than to detain a shoplifter. I'm not that found of vigilantism...

Putting aside that the guy died for a minute I would like more information on what went down. A security video would be nice.

Did the rent a cops have a right to try to stop him? Maybe. If they had good right to believe he stole the hat(ie video showing him stealing it) then yea they had a right to try to stop him. If they didn't have this then I hope the family goes after them.

@AMetamorphosis: Has anyone said that the reason he died was because he was detained? Obviously his weight would have contributed, if not outright caused, his death.

In Minnesota (where it is snowing HEAVILY right now), it is a crime to conceal an item within a store. Thus, you have legally shoplifted the moment you put it in your bag, purse, coat pocket, down your pants, etc.

It matters not a whit if you actually left the store or not. The moment you stash it from view, you've legally stolen it and can be arrested.

One other thing: Shoplifting here is an aggregated offense. This means that every time you steal something, it accumulates toward the felony level of grand larceny. Thus, if someone steals on separate occasions in small amounts, they are still on the hook for a major prosecution.

Now, as I understand it, rent-a-cops could NOT stop someone in North Carolina, where citizens arrest is not recognized. But here in MN, if you're willing to take the risk of a false imprisonment charge, you're able to hold the perp until the real cops arrive.

@oakie: "come back later once you've found a real resource."

Or maybe you could find a contradictory "real resource" instead of making the assumption that the Wikipedia information is incorrect or misleading.

@AMetamorphosis:

I agree with you on that. I'd bet when they figure out why he died it will be at the top of the list.

In Boston, in order for a stop to be made there has to be concealment, the potential shoplifter has to move beyond all points of sale, and the security agent has to have the person in sight at ALL times (so as to not allow for the chance to ditch the item). In my store, the associates would call the LP agent if there was any suspicious customers, and he would then come down and physically tail the guy until he made a move to leave the store. He would then show his badge and escort the offender to the security office. Usually, the offenders were only given trespass warnings to prevent them from every coming back.

@Pasketti: But isn't it different if the "citizen" in question is actually acting in the capacity of a corporate employee and not really a citizen. It would seem that in that regard this would be the equivalent of being detained by a private organization and ie. a big no no. But IANAL AND I am also not a lawyer...

Am I the only central MA. native who thought of Spag's when they saw this photo?

@ColdNorth: There you go. Concealment. I knew there was something I was missing. Thanks.

I think as the economy keeps going down the tubes, shoplifting will become a lot worse.

I believe it has to do with trained security personnel verses your average Joe retail employee. I know that Mall security and some store security people in Florida carry hand cuffs and use them on people shoplifting. Also in FL you have to witness the person conceal the merchandise, have un-interrupted observation of them until they attempt to exit the store. Then you can attempt to make an apprehension. I give store security people credit, there was a shoplifter here in Jacksonville recently that ended up running from a police officer and shooting the officer 6 times...including in the jaw. The officer managed to return fire and kill the guy...over a pair of blue jeans. Craziness.

The larger problem here isn't that this is a kid stealing a ball cap for fun or an item he personally wants. The majority of the problem shoplifters are part of a larger stolen goods fencing ring. These items are either fraud returned, sold at the swap mart or on eBay. The point for detaining is to gather information and have the suspect recorded with the local police. Catching these chronic thieves is important to first send them a message that they are being observed, they will be prosecuted and the thefts aggregated. More often than not the Loss Prevention departments of retail stores will keep images of know criminals on site and share this information with other stores.

These professional criminals are the major cause of the pain everyone here complains about, receipt checking etc. They are no different from car thieves or home burglars.

While I don't have any information on the details of this case I will remind you that the Loss Prevention, Rent-a-Cops, mall security usually have a very strict rule set. They for the most part are undoubtedly aware of the local laws and ordinances for their protection as well as that of the suspect.

There is inherit risk just as there is for the police. These professional criminals can be very dangerous. Within the last couple of years a Nordstrom LP agent was stabbed from behind while following a suspect to the car park to obtain a license plate number.

So when you shoplift a hat, do you simply take it off the shelf and put it on your head and walk out?

If so, then the 'conceal' argument doesn't exactly hold water, because the item is still in plain view.

@savvy9999: Actually, no. The conceal argument is still valid. In this case, the person wearing the hat around the store is concealing the item in plain sight. That is, he is pretending to own the item by wearing it.

Anyone else see the irony of the headline?

Coroner ID's Suspect Who Collapsed At E. Bay Mall

@omerhi:

Sadly, weather or not this man died of natural causes, the store will get socked with a HUGE lawsuit saying that he wouldn't have died if they had just let the poor thief go ...

@Shadowfire: @Shadowfire:

I think that a citizens arrest can only be made only if it's a felony.
Also, this story is too short on information about what caused this man's death.

maybe it was the hat that broke the fatman's back...or heart, or whatever it was that broke...

Depends on the jurisdiction and how much local law enforcement agrees with the security staff. If you really want to go crazy, check out the rights and privileges of shopkeepers. In my neck of the WhiteWilderness, a storeowner can shoot you dead for stealing. You are not likely to have recourse as your act led to your demise.

The laws were written to assist small owners who can't afford 'shrinkage'.

Fat jokes aside, this guy probably died BECAUSE he's obese, so even if the gaurds acted illegally in attempting to detain him, can they at fault for his death?

Personally I don't think there is enough information in those two very small articles to determine exactly what happened but if you want to analyze particular wording, take this quote from the CBS story:

"Alex Gomes II entered a Macy's store inside the mall on Stoneridge Mall Road and allegedly stole something at about 8:35 p.m., Pleasanton police said.

Security officers at the mall then attempted to arrest and detain Gomes, who allegedly resisted and assaulted security personnel, according to police."

Could be read as, he left Macy's and was detained by Mall security not Macy's security.

@ecwis: "It would probably be easier to file a claim with their insurance company than to detain a shoplifter. I'm not that found of vigilantism... "

Most shop owners have a deductabile for their insurance. Additionally, if you were to file a lot of claims, your insurance goes through the roof. It is cheaper to pay for a security guard.

I think a "little bit" of vigilantism helps to deter some crime, just the thought that someone next you maight intervene may prevent someone from comitting a criminal act.

It would be interesting to see some crime statics two similar populations where one is allowed to carry a firearm and the other is severly restricted from carrying. Anyone have references to such data?

If it was at a Mall, did he leave the store and enter the common area? I can certainly see wearing a hat around the store while doing further shopping. I would expect that if asked I could talk my way out of it.

I've never had a problem, but when at the grocery store with a 3 year old it has not been uncommon to open a package to let him have a piece. The cashiers have never commented nor looked surprised ringing up empty packaging for us.

Where is the line drawn? It would seem that my behavior at the grocery store could be looked upon as theft, but it is simply good customer service to let me consume a couple of dollars in items (that I am paying for anyways...) when spending $200.

I really like the scales that let us weigh and print labels. The cashier didn't even seem surprised to scan the label on an empty banana peel.

See what happens when you dont show a receipt!

In most places, yes, they can. It's called a "merchant's privilege". In most jurisdictions, shopkeepers can use reasonable force to detain people they suspect of shoplifting.

Heart attack most likely. He probably panicked and his heart probably was already in a strain trying to maintain that bulk , it just failed.

Store loss prevention and mall security usually will work in conjunction during most incidents.

@ecwis:
Sure, then we can all pay for the shoplifter's take.

I figured he died trying to eat the evidence.

Seriously, if you're a 400lb thief, you really aren't concerned with running away are you?

@AustinTXProgrammer:

Although I think opening something and consuming it prior to paying for it is a bad idea, I once was in a grocery store with a horrible cold. I picked up a bottle of nasal spray and promptly inhaled a dose. Then I continued shopping.

When I checked out I paid for the empty package and attendant was flabbergasted that I was honest. I couldn't understand her amazement.

Personally, my karma is worth far more than the price of the package.

Maybe if more people had made fat jokes when he was alive, he would had gone easier on the cheese burgers and not dropped dead of what is probably congestive heart failure...

@DogTown: "I think that a citizens arrest can only be made only if it's a felony."

This is generally true, and the arresting citizen has to actually witness the felony. Also, if something happens to the detainee (like, for example, he drops dead) you could be held liable for civil and criminal penalties.

"Also, this story is too short on information about what caused this man's death."

Yes, but that won't stop everybody from blaming the fatty.

Um, there isn't a Macy's in Oakland. So either this is a figment of someone's imagination, or it happened in Pleasanton @ Stoneridge Mall.