A former camera store manager came forward to defend retail renting as a common tactic that helps drive sales. Retail renting is when a customer buys a pricey item like a prom dress with the intention of returning it later. Our completely unscientific poll shows that 70% of you disapprove of retail renting, but our tipster insists that it is a victimless crime and a valuable sales tool. Our enlightening chat with the former manager, inside.
I saw just about any kind of retail renting you can think of. The biggest thing that I wanted to convey is that we, in the business, all did it. Managers, employee’s and even the district managers got in the action too.Sometimes, it was legitimate product testing. I never liked telling a mom that this camera would take great pictures of her children until I tried it out on my own. Other times, I “tested” the portable DVD player for a week while on vacation. But the rule was always that you paid for the item and then returned it when you were done with it. Nothing under the table.
Customers did it to. The occasional rental didn’t really bother me all that much. What I found was that customers would on occasion buy a camera from me later on once they learned how lax we were about returns.
In fact, last week I “rented” a $1900 lens from [the store.] Now, normally I actually “rent” lenses from a company that’s equipped to do so. However, I needed the lens the next day and [the store] was my only option. As far as I’m concerned, its a victimless crime.
The lens had already been opened and used by someone else. My thought was that if I beat up or damage the lens, I own it. If not, I return it and nobody loses anything. I know that for a fact as a former manager. The only time it would bother me would be when somebody got to return something well beyond the time limit. I sold a digital camera to a woman once who obviously had used her camera on her vacation. However, she had gone almost 15 days over the 10 day return window. Corporate allowed her to return the camera and I had a huge chunk of my check taken away. Had it been during the same window as when I received the comission, I wouldn’t have minded so much.
I think that people need to understand that its really a victimless crime. In the world of cameras, unless the box has a factory seal you have to assume that its been opened and played with at some point. Some stores even go the extra step of breaking all the seals on all the boxes to remove that bias.
We sort of saw the idea of renting as another way to get people into the store to buy something. Even if they didn’t buy a camera, they would on occasion become printing customers. This isn’t something that we encouraged people to do mind you. Its not like you could walk up to me and say, “Hi, I’d like to buy a camera for the weekend and take it back,” and I’d say SURE SIR HERE YOU GO.
What normally happens is the customer would come in and within 5 minutes would make a $500 camera purchase. Before leaving they’d take the camera out and have me spot check it to make sure it wasn’t broken or anything. it was at this point that I realized they were renting. I wished them a nice day and started a pool within the store as to when they’d bring it back.
Some stores would try to “scare” the customer by warning them of return refusal policies or restocking fee’s that don’t exist. My guess is that they were banking on the fact that the customer would be too guilt stricken to question company policy. Some of them were right. But I always found it was hypocritical to stop customers from doing what we ourselves did on a regular basis
My first store manager bought and returned her home printer every month. When she quit, she returned it for good.
I guess what I’m trying to argue is that if its done correctly, its a victimless crime. The insiders do it in much worse fashion anyways. I would argue that if your willing to rent something, you might be willing to buy it (eventually). Allowing you to rent with me increases my chances of a sale. And that’s what I really want.
Do retail renters ever go the extra dishonest mile and try to return damaged equipment?
Oh yes, but that’s why you check out the equipment before you allow the return. That’s where I put my foot down. If I couldn’t sell the camera at full price to the person behind you, we have a problem.The best is since [the store] has a warranty that covers customer damage, people assumed that if they broke it they could return it and the warranty would cover the repairs. Meaning we’d return their broken camera and fix it under our warranty and somehow not lose money on it.
You needed every plastic cover, every piece of wrapping to bring it back into my store and most of my customers knew that.
These would-be scammers didn’t react well when confronted.
Most of them threw a fit. I would assume because they got caught. But that’s what you get for disregarding how serious I take returns. Some people would rent without regard for the fact that I would still have to sell the product.Sometimes we’d turn it into a sale. Well, I can’t return this camera but I’ll let you exchange it. Then i’d write “NO RETURN/EXCHANGE” on their receipt and the camera box. But yeah, they’d get pretty pissed. Especially when I found all the little things. I’ve denied returns because that little cover that comes with the batter (that everyone loses right away) was missing. Or a tiny scratch on the bottom of the camera.
My store was very thorough with returns.
So our former manager has no problem with renting. Would she herself rent from another store?
Hmm….
Well, there aren’t many stores where you can these days. I did “rent” a heater from Costco once. I needed to warm my house for a party. I rented a $200 space heater, though I did end up buying a $30 a few weeks later from them. So I don’t think it was a loss. I even repacked the rented heater the exact same way it was.I suppose renting out of simple need is ok. Habitual renting to me would feel like stealing, and in truth, I did consider keeping the heater.
Does this change your opinion of retail renting? Take to the comments with your moral indignation.
(Photo: *** Fanch The System !!! ***)
PREVIOUSLY: Is Retail Renting Ethical?
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@InfiniTrent:
“I think they can handle restocking a camera on their own dime.”
That’s not my quote, so don’t give me a lecture.
Wow… Consumerist readers think pretty highly of themselves. I wonder how many of them are running torrents right now as they are trashing this guy.
I’m in sales, and I would never sell a customer a used or opened item without telling them it’s not in pristine condition. I mean, jeez, who does this guy think he’s fooling?
Translation: “I don’t have a logical argument but I want to say something anyway.”
@iliveinyoureyelid: That sucks about the lens, but if you needed a dslr for a short amount of time, why didn’t you just rent one? It’s less questionable than retail renting.
Also, how on earth do you go laptop shopping without knowing the full specs and “layout”, whatever that is, if you actually want a laptop and that kind of stuff matters? Unless it’s some custom built thing the full specs of said laptop should be available easily online. Then at that point one of the only other things that matters is design/weight/shape and other things of a physical nature, and even that may be moot if there are demo units on hand.
@Binaryslyder: But all the camera stores I have been to (when shopping for my last one, which I wanted to try before possibly ordering online for best prices/selection) had demo units on display I could play with. If they don’t have a demo unit and the item in question is popular enough, they should just open a new one and make that the demo unit. You can’t rationally expect a customer to not try out the item in question before purchasing, and it’s quite odd when there is no demo unit!
@crazylady: Also, how on earth do you go laptop shopping without knowing the full specs and “layout”, whatever that is
Layout, especially of things like the keyboard and peripheral ports, can be important. Ports that are in a bad place or too close together may cause issues that can’t really be explained in the product literature. I’ve personally used a cheaper laptop (not mine– work computer) that had such a crammed-in keyboard layout that I ended up just buying an external keyboard and using it instead. (the page up/down keys, the backspace, backslash, and Enter were all in odd positions, if I recall correctly). Sometimes, small but constantly aggravating things like that just can’t be found except by using the device.
@ClayS: “That’s not my quote, so don’t give me a lecture.”
Obviously my comments weren’t intended to be directed towards you – my apologies – I hit the wrong button. Binaryslyder was the intended recipient.
I really wish they had an edit feature on these posts.
@Binaryslyder: I’m not really intending to defend Ritz – I have no firsthand experience with their stores. It just seemed to me that you were attacking a store’s right to make a profit.
@InfiniTrent:
No problem.
“Companies have a net profit margin they must make to stay in business – if that is encroached upon, they’ll just raise the price.”
That statement is right on target.
Do I understand this right? The guy says he doesn’t mind “retail renting” but then he says his customers need every tiny piece of packaging to do a return?
So, the people who buy with the intention of returning something will keep every little piece of wrapping, but the person who buys with the intention of keeping an item and has to do a return for some unforeseen reason — he might not still have all the packaging, and he’ll be screwed? Screwed because this store treats all returned items like they’re brand new and it’ll be obvious something is used without all the packaging?
This sounds friendly to retail renters, and not-so-friendly to normal honest customers.
@Binaryslyder: “when I retail “rent,” I don’t do anything dishonest.”
That’s a contradictory sentence – retail renting is dishonest, period.
“Second, if Ritz or other companies were so damned concerned about net profits and profit margins, they’d put things like fax machines and copiers in their stores instead of requiring them to pay other stores for their use. I requested a copy of a reciept once from Ritz. The employee joked that he had to drive 10 minutes over to kinkos to make me a 10 cent copy.”
Are you kidding me? So you’re rationalizing stealing this store’s profits because they’re not perfectly efficient?
@crazylady:
Often times, when I have been checking laptops, they look fine and feel fine in store. After a short amount of use you begin to notice some of the subtleties of each one. Sometimes the keys, locks, pieces feel cheap after a little use. Sometimes the spacing of buttons, etc. is poorly thought out etc. Sure I could live with it, but I don’t want to and at least for now, I don’t have to.
As far as specs go, I have found that more than a few times, Futureshop in particular, misrepresents the amount of ram, or other specs, and it is only after some use and increased digging it becomes apparent.I don’t feel overly sorry for returning something that wasn’t what I thought I was buying in the first place.
Re: the Camera. I actually didn’t mind having to buy it.
@Binaryslyder: “I suppose all of you against retail renting are also against downloading music/apps/movies as well? Just checking. “
Yes, shockingly I support the idea that people should be paid for their work, even if they already have millions of dollars.
Based on your comment, I suppose that you feel free to help yourself to any amount of illicit, unpaid-for, copyrighted content?
@MARTHA__JONES: I don’t understand: why can’t clothing be sold as worn? After all, every time someone tries it on in the changing room it’s worn, no? Surely people do expect clothing to be worn before, maybe not as a return but there’s not THAT much difference, to be honest …
This isn’t a justification, by the by, I’m just curious as to what you meant.
@iliveinyoureyelid: Buying a product and then returning it because you’re dissatisfied is one thing…retail renting is another. If you bought the laptop with the strict intention of keeping it, then found things you didn’t like, that are deal breakers, I don’t blame you for returning.
Retail renting isn’t an action as much as it is an intent – the intent, to me, determines whether it’s ethical or not.
Haven’t downloaded so much as a jingle without paying for it since I managed a cd/dvd retailer and saw how downloading killed our business. Our store was staffed with music and movie buffs who loved nothing more than turning people on to new tunes. It broke my heart every time I heard “Oh this is awesome, I’m gonna download it.” By downloading without paying, you’re not just sticking it to the man (i.e. wealthy execs and artists) you’re also screwing the men and women who work in manufacturing CDs, delivery, A&R, mailroom clerks, etc.
If you look, there’s always a victim.
To you who don’t feel there’s anything unethical about renting, why don’t you tell the retailer your intentions?
To the people who say they try stuff out, decide they don’t like it and get a different version, size etc. This isn’t retail renting. You wind up buying something like what you bought in the 1st place. People buy something, get it home and maybe right away or a week later go “Man, this isn’t what I wanted at all” and return it. Retail renting is stealing, because you get all your money back, so you get to use something for a time period for free. It’s not like buying a camera for a vacation, using it and deciding that you hate the way it works, then returning it and getting a better or different camera. That’s ok in my opinion.
@Quirkycat: I think there is a big difference between try some clothes on for a few minutes in the shop and taking something home, wearing it out to a fancy dinner, potentially spilling something on it, throwing it on the floor as you get home and letting a flea ridden cat sleep on it before you decide to take it back because you only needed it for the fancy dinner. For example.
Gaining benefit from a product that is for sale, without paying for it, is theft.
That’s all there is to it.
@wellfleet:
You’re right that there are victims. I agree that it is also unethical. But as for who the victims are possibly the manager is one due to the possibility of lost bonuses. I do very much doubt the employees will be hurt by this though. Most corporations would not return a significant percentage of recovery back to the employees in the form of wages or bonuses. They will instead keep it for the company and the shareholders. Sure it might affect them, but probably not. So what do they care. They are usually just low wage slaves being taken advantage of and they know it.
a few years back i took a seasonal job at chapters (big canadian chain bookstore) – was really shocked to discover that all staff are fully permitted to basically treat the entire store as a library. they have a sign-out binder and you just take whatever you want and bring it back whenever you want, given that it’s in ‘as new’ condition. that, coupled with an extremely lax return policy, means that a really significant portion of their books are totally used, man – and you really have no idea where they’ve been. hand sanitizer, anyone?
I read this and pretty much decided I don’t want to go to any store that this person has worked at.
When I buy a new item, I want to be the person breaking that factory seal. If I’m not the one to break the seal, I want to get some discount.
My credit card purchase protection insurance doesn’t cover items that are not brand new. That means that it doesn’t cover factory refurbished, or open box items.
I’ve used the credit card insurance several times in the past when the manufacturer warranty has just expired and the product has died.
Seems to me companies should make rental official for cameras and other large items – just give 90% of money back if it’s returned within a month. Benefits the store, and allows the customer to see if the thing really works.
this guy is just a sleeze. I have worked in electronics stores and agree that the people selling the equipment need to be experienced with it. The way this is achieved correctly is opening a new one, and let employees play with it, then set it out as a demo. You let the same one be used over and over by everyone and sell only unopened brand new items. when the equipment will no longer be carried you sell the demo at a discounted price. The cost of the demo is taken into consideration when deciding to carry an item. So if an item costs $500 and you sell them for $600 you need to sell 5 before breaking even, if you cant sell 10 you don’t sell it because there is no profit.
Finally, Consumerist abandons “blame the victim” for “blame the victimless crime” debates. Latent libertarians, now’s your chance to speak.
@manevitch: Gaining benefit from a product that is for sale, without paying for it, is theft.
Wrong. Walking out of a store with merchandise that you didn’t pay for is theft. If a music store’s playing a CD and you stand there and listen to the song, and then walk out of the store singing the song you just listened to, are you a thief? Maybe in the eyes of the RIAA.
PLEASE don’t get me started on Ritz…
!RANT!
I would never buy a camera there unless I personally had recieved it in a shipment. There’s no telling what has happened to the camera before it’s been sold to you IN THE PACKAGE. They will sell you items that have been opened and put on display. Even items that have been damaged cosmetically, ALL FOR THE ORIGINAL PRICE. Everything said on this forum is absolutely true of this company. Who knows how they stay in business. Although I don’t condone retail renting, I would say, please do this to Ritz and put them out of business.
Number 1, David Ritz is a douche. They run their operation of 1000+ stores like a mom and pop shop. This doesnt really make sense as it is a detriment to future business AND the customer. They underpay their many knowledgable employees and force them to sell ridiculous things like damage protection programs and BIG PRINT YOU (oversized prints, THE NAME MAKES NO SENSE!!!).
Also, good luck with customer service. Most employees are very poorly trained in most customer service areas. Everything outside of the stores (AKA Beltsville Maryland) runs off the back asswards 9-5 routine making it usually impossible to get anything accomplished in the evening OR on the weekends (Esp with three hours difference here on the West Coast). Finally, if you are paranoid about identity theft, you’ll love knowing that they still use carbon paper to make copies of your credit cards. Those valuable slips of paper stick around in the store for a week!
To finish I would like to remind you that Ritz really does have the most lax return policy. Sure it’s 10 days for equipment, 30 days for everything else, but no one in the store usually goes by that, and unlike Target or Evil Best Buy, Ritz doesn’t have specialized customer service employees. Joe Bob that sells you your camera also does the money/transaction counting and prints your pictures.
!END OF RANT!
No, Carey, some jackass retail manager did not change my opinion on “retail renting” just because he approves of it. Sounds like he is just looking for ways to delude himself into believing his actions are ethical.
For me, “rent” seems to be the wrong term as it implies a mutual agreement with fees and, yes, consequences. Yeah, we should call it something else.
I know! Temporary Theft!
Why not just RENT the god damn thing & get it over with?…
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After reading all of the responses, I’m gathering the following:
1. It is not OK to retail rent.
2. It is OK to be an ‘honest consumer’ and buy a product, use it at home for a week, decide you don’t like it and bring it back for a full refund.
What is the difference? Is it because when I go into a store I’m not thinking I’m going to return this in 2 days, 1 week, etc.?
The company I’m returning the product to is not going to say, ‘OK, you were an ‘honest consumer’ and you hadn’t initially intended to return this product, so we are going to put this for sale as an Open Box Item.’ No, they are going to sell it for the EXACT same price regardless if I retail rent it or if I just plain return it because it was not what I expected.
@lr0405: “1. It is not OK to retail rent.
2. It is OK to be an ‘honest consumer’ and buy a product, use it at home for a week, decide you don’t like it and bring it back for a full refund.”
It’s a question of intent, which admittedly makes the ethics a little murky. To give a much larger example, if you’re horsing around with a friend, give him a playful shove, and he falls into the street and gets run over, we analyze that very differently than if you turn to your friend with murder in your heart and push him into traffic on purpose. Both situations look very much the same, except for your intent — in one case, it was an accident; in the other, you acted with malicious intent.
Retail has for a long time allowed you to take something home and return it if it doesn’t suit. Perhaps you’re buying a new outfit and want to get your spouse’s/best friend’s/mother’s opinion on it. Or (perhaps more common these days), mom goes out and buys a selection of stuff for one of her over-scheduled kids to try on at home so she doesn’t have to coordinate an entire shopping extravaganza. The stores say that’s fair. Buying an outfit, wearing it out, and then returning it (often damaged) is not — unless there is something very wrong with the outfit that you did not notice until first wearing. (And a lot of stores won’t let you return even then, precisely because of retail renters who do wear stuff out, damage it, and return it.)
Then we get into electronics, which is trickier. It truly is difficult to know if some piece of electronic equipment works for you until you get it out of the box and play with it (demo items are good!), put it where it’s going to live, etc. Most retailers do want you to be able to return when you discover “Woah, this isn’t what I wanted at all!” because who’s going to drop $500 on technology they’ve never tried before if they can’t return it if it turns out to be too complicated or have the wrong features?
This does, however, open up the possibility of retail rental, where someone buys ON PURPOSE with the intent of using and returning.
I suppose the practical difference is that someone who buys, finds a problem, and returns is going to return maybe 1 in 10 purchases (and is likely to purchase a different version of the same item). That’s a cost of doing business the store is willing to absorb. A retail renter, on the other hand, is returning 10 in 10 purchases; consistently costing the store money instead of making the store money; and eventually raising prices and leading to more restrictive return policies for shoppers who DON’T game the system.
(I also have a moral problem with opened items being sold as “new,” but that’s on the store’s head, not the retail renter’s.)
I use to be a Homestore manager of a Federated Dept store before they all became Macy*s, and our return policy was accept the return no matter what, as long as they had their receipt. Needless to say, I had quite a few customers that took advantage of that policy. One customer returned 13 year old All-Clad cookware that had been used. She then proceeded to William Sonoma for an upgrade. People would come in after being married for several years and return all their china from their wedding because they never used it. When you return something to a store, it should be for legitimate reasons: wrong fit, broken, impulse buy, changed mind; anything else it stealing and the ones who do, know it.
I think it’s theft, plain and simple. It’s deception. It’s also the reason why a lot of smaller stores who rely on less income don’t have a return policy. Victimless crime, my ass.
I’ve retail-rented for years but I generally only do it for things I need only once or for a very short time. For example, I needed a 20 foot ladder once to get something out of an attic. I don’t normally need a ladder that big. First, I called around to see if I could borrow one. No one had one. Next I considered whether I could actually use a ladder that big more than once. The answer was no. So I went to a hardware store, bought the ladder I needed, used it, cleaned it, made sure it wasn’t damaged in any way and returned it.
In all honesty, the store never lost any sales from me because if I couldn’t return the ladder I wouldn’t have purchased it in the first place. I would have found another solution to the problem. Retail-rental in the situation was simply the easiest and most expedient solution to my problem.
I’m not rationalizing. I know most of you think I’m a thief and, quite frankly, I don’t care. I happy knowing I don’t have to spend $100 on a ladder I only need to use once.
@ElizabethD:
Meetya at the convent.
Oh, and now I have suspicions about that heart rate monitor I bought at the sporting goods store a few weeks ago. The box was a bit beat up, but the clerk claimed it was new.
Another thing that seems to be overlooked (unless I over looked it being mentioned) is that using a Credit Card cost the store money too. So if you return an item and the store does not charge a restocking fee than its out 3 to 5% of that sale in addition to the % that the sale cost as well. On some electronic goods the margin is so little it pratically costs the merchant to sell the item when a CC is used.
Another thing that costs the store is the man hours neccasary to process the return (check box contents, process return through system, issue CC or check/cash return, restock item)
Retail renting is not a victim less crime. It costs the store money and in return costs honest customers because stores have to charge more to cover losses.
Add another tick to the “retail renting IS a victim-ful crime” column. I don’t want used goods, ta.
Jezebel Eds, thanks for transcribing this im convo, it was v pleasant to read.
@wellfleet: I’d hazard that s/he got fired for ‘renting’ and is now excusing zir crime with this interview.
So, has anyone here ever bought a new car? Do you honestly think you are the only one to have sat in it? You dont think it has been driven at all? Or do you not consider that buying new?
Retail renting is just a low rent thing to do. There is no justification for it. People that abuse it and/or make a practice of it have no breeding whatsoever.
@Comms: “I would have found another solution to the problem. “
You could have done. Call Rent-a-Tool or your local equivalent. And don’t be a jerk.
Making a habit out of it is indicative of downright douchebaggery.
I would be REALLY pissed to find out I bought a printer, even as used or refurbished, that someone had been renting for months. There IS a victim, and it’s the honest consumers who buy the products after they’ve been used.
@visualbowler:
Ya, I don’t know why they took part of his check away. The woman was 15 days over the return limit, and the item was used.