Every day for the past eight months, Dell has called Kat to demand payment for a bill she doesn’t owe. Kat unfortunately inherited the phone number of a Dell debtor when she started a new job, something Dell would rather overlook—along with the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Kat has tried calling, escalating, and having the debtor tell Dell to leave her alone. Dell continually assures her that the problem has been fixed. And then they call again.
She recently sent us the Executive Email Carpet Bomb she lobbed towards Dell’s headquarters:
To: tips@consumerist.com
Cc: michael_dell@dell.com, donald_carty@dell.com, ronald_garriques@dell.com, michael_cannon@dell.com, mark_jarvis@dell.com, lawrence_tu@dell.com, susan_sheskey@dell.com, andrew_esparza@dell.com, paul_bell@dell.com, stephen_felice@dell.com, david_marmonti@dell.com, brad_anderson@dell.com, jeffrey_clarke@dell.com, martin_garvin@dell.com, alex_gruzen@dell.com, joan_hooper@dell.com, william_gray@dell.comGood Morning,
This is my last resort. I am writing today to share with you a problem that has become so excessive over the last eight months that I no longer know what to do with it. I have given up the idea of ever having a Dell hassle-free life so I am just trying to live mine by minimizing their interruptions in my day to day life. Here is my story:I am not a Dell customer. I DO NOT OWN ANY DELL PRODUCTS (AND I NEVER WILL). I got a new job last July and for my job I inherited a very important phone number that all of my clients have used for the past seven years. I work for an extremely small non-profit (i.e. I am the only paid employee) and I work with youth and their families. I have 30 families who move around often and the only way we keep in contact is through this stable phone number so changing my number was not and option.
In August 2007 I started receiving calls from the Dell collection center in India. The calls were not for me or my job, they were for the man who previously had my job and phone number. He linked his personal Dell account to his then work phone number. The first ten times Dell called I gave them the previous employee’s new phone number and asked them to remove my number from that account as it was no longer current… But the calls kept coming….
Steps I have taken to avoid hearing from Dell:
1) I notified the person they were trying to reach. I had him call and change his contact information. He did that and Dell assured him the problem was solved and that they would not call me again. But the calls kept coming…
2) I had 6 lengthy conversations with supervisors at the Dell Call Center in India. Sometimes they would give me a badge number, recording ID, their name and one time in a thick Indian accent I was told I was speaking with a “Michelle Woodward” for the record. Dell promised the problem was solved and that they would not call me again. But the calls kept coming…
3) I called the customer service line on Dell’s website. Since I am not a Dell customer and I don’t even know what item they want me to pay for that I do not own, it was a long and frustrating call. In the end Dell assured me the problem was solved and that they would not call me again. But the calls kept coming…
Now, 8 months later, Dell calls my work phone up to three times daily. I finally bought a new phone (but I can’t change the number because I need it to do my job) just so I could set it to ring silently when Dell calls. I try to ignore the calls the best I can, but recently the calls have started coming from local DC numbers as well as the Indian 800 number. I am sometimes fooled into answering the local calls only to find that I am again on the phone with a company where I am not a customer.
Now I understand that people must lie and give fake phone numbers to dodge paying for their stuff. I am sympathetic to a point about how hard it must be to streamline a system. But I have done everything in my power to point Dell in the right direction, but they refuse to take my number out of the system. Dell you don’t want me. Please leave me alone.
Finally someone suggested that I write to consumerist. I saw the Dell executive emails on your site, so I will be CCing this email to them as well. All of them. We will see if they respond. Maybe I will start calling them three times a day.
Sincerely,
Dell’s used up call girl
Kat
We see that Kat cc’d Lawrence Tu, Dell’s General Counsel, who should be able to recognize that Dell is flagrantly violating the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. 15 U.S.C. 1692c(b) states:
Except as provided in section 1692b of this title, without the prior consent of the consumer given directly to the debt collector, or the express permission of a court of competent jurisdiction, or as reasonably necessary to effectuate a postjudgment judicial remedy, a debt collector may not communicate, in connection with the collection of any debt, with any person other than the consumer, his attorney, a consumer reporting agency if otherwise permitted by law, the creditor, the attorney of the creditor, or the attorney of the debt collector.
We’re not sure if Kat has standing to sue Dell for harassment under the Act, but maybe a helpful consumer lawyer can appear in the comments and offer some advice.
(Photo: publicprivate)
I sympathize with her situation. I received calls from various collection agencies several times a day for someone who shared my last name. Knowing the douchbaggery of collection agencies, I never picked up. They have since given up.
Then I got a new cell phone and received several calls a day for the deadbeat who used to own the number. I picked up for those calls and had success in getting them to stop.
Call centers from India are particularly persistent as the employees jobs are threatened if they don’t succeed.
I sympathize as well. It took about two years at our new phone number for the debt collectors and truancy officer to stop calling the person who had this number last. The debt collectors I get why they kept calling and calling and calling, but it kinda snarked me off that the school and the truancy officer kept calling after I corrected them thirty-odd times. How hard is it for a school with 400 students to keep track of a phone number? Especially when he seems to be their star problem student.
(And many, many, many, many FERPA violations on my answering machine. MANY.)
Rather simple really. Add your number to the federal do not call list. Then start filing a complaint for each and every call. It carries a $10,000 fine for each call.
@spamtasticus:
It would’nt apply since the calls are being placed for the purpose of collecting on a debt. Still, the OP needs to be sure to maintain careful and detailed logs of the calls. I work in collections and the fines for what dell is doing are quite steep.
Keep a record of the calls and get a lawyer. Don’t know the how the laws work, but I think you can get some money for each call you get after telling them to stop.
yeah, that indian call center man, they really get around. what’s the legality of that? are people in collections call centers legally obligated to give you their real first name or some sort of id number? if so, does this not apply if the center’s in india? if it still applies because the primary collections company outsourcing is located in the us how do we go about getting this fixed?
i mean i could see how maybe one man with an indian accent calling to collect someone else’s debt has a common western name, but not if you repeatedly call the center and everyone seems to have picked a name out of a catholic school’s year book.
how is that legal?
My girlfriend called me in tears one day because Old Navy had found out her work phone number and called nonstop about a bill that was late 10 days. Seriously clogged her lines. She told them to stop calling, but they didn’t. I picked up the phone, called the number and as deeply and firmly as I could, told them that they will not call again. I had the man repeat it to me over the phone, I informed him that I was recording him (I wasn’t), and that there would be hell to pay if we received another call. He kept on insisting that he needed to talk to my girlfriend, but I kept on enough that he finally just agreed to stop the calls.
I find that being cooperative with these people gets you nowhere :
A friend of mine who works for a large tech company that uses outsourced India tech support informed me of a few things.
What is being said in this letter is true, and will most likely not stop from just calling and talking to people in India. I was informed that the people are paid by the call, so they tend to put in the wrong information. They most likely said they were changing it, but probably did not. What if, like it states in the letter, that it is a false number… they now lose their chance of collecting and getting that paycheck. Yeah its shady for them to do it, but their business ethic is pretty low.
This is what we get in america as consumers who demand lower prices, and as investors who want higher profits. The prices get raised while merchandise and service quality goes down, in the ever increasing world of higher profits.
I dunno if she could sue, but maybe the person who owns the debt could sue for violating his privacy by talking to her about his debt?
I don’t even think the email to Dell is necessary or helpful. The magical win solution:
Next time they call, you tell the agent on the other end that you are not the debtor they are looking for and that they are “now on notice” of that fact. Any further phone calls will be construed as a willful violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and you will be forced to take legal action against them with attorneys fees and punitive damages to the extent permitted by statute. Good day.
That will shut them up, and worked quite well for some debt collector harassing my parents (looking for the wrong person). Oh and, IANYL.
SUE THEIR @$$!!!
Sorry for the language, but if any company deserves to be sued for something, it should be this.
You are dealing with persons from a lawless third world nation. They have no rights at home. They know nothing of your rights, Remember, these are people that have complete contempt for Americans. They cannot be arrested or stopped. Change the number, give it out to everyone and then forget it!
@mgy:
Good. I hope they stop calling your girlfriend. You have no idea how much trouble an agency can get if they continue calling a workplace EVEN IF you owe a debt. By law, ANY employee including yourself can request a verbal cease and desist and the request HAS to be fulfilled. And no, you don’t have to: Fill out a form, have to be the debtor making the request, or pay the bill THEN have the calls stop. If a collector has the cohones to tell you he or she needs to speak with your GF then they’re full of shit. Since the calls can interfere with your work policies and may result in your possible termination for breaking those policies, the “verbal do not call” is very serious. Therefore, MGY…if those assholes continue calling your GF then they are breaking the law, plain and simple. Bugging your poor girlfriend while she’s at work is un-cool and only adds to the already stressful retail workplace. I hope it gets resolved.
Ask them for an address to send payment to, then send them a certified return-receipt letter (make copies of everything for your own records) stating the facts (and the law) and that THEY agree to pay you $500 per phone call 7 days after receipt of the letter. This gives them plenty of time to delete the # from their system. It also provides you a nice source of income when you take it to court. This isn’t much different from the idiotic “End User License Agreement” Dell packages with everything they sell. Probably would stand up in court as well.
@FLConsumer:
Good suggestion: writing and sending a request to only communicate via mail and not telephone is a good strategy. Once you make the request with the collector a 10 day C&D is placed on your account in order to give you sufficient amount of time in which to have your request received. After you have confirmed the request is received then it’s time to start making notes.
@calvinneal: The company they are calling on behalf of is in the US , therefore they are liable under US laws. The OP shouldn’t be required to change their number to escape illegal calls.
OP : Find a knowledgeable FDCPA attorney, this is an open an shut lawsuit that should get them to stop the harassment.
Have a setup by your phone for recording calls. When they call again pick up and start the recorder. Inform them, after getting the reps name and ID number, that you are recording the call and ask them if they understand that. Don’t let them get a word of information or argument out of you until they have said that they understand and accept that the call is being recorded. Have them state the company they are calling from as well as all relevant details so that you can prove that it is Dell calling.
Inform them (as stated above) that your name is :insert name here: and you are not the debtor. Tell them they are on notice of that in regards to the fair debt collection laws. Tell them that this is harassment, is causing you emotional duress, disturbing personal and work time, and interfering with your ability to perform your job, endangering your employment in the job that you have, and otherwise taking on substantial fiscal liabilities by continuing to disturb you. Have them state that they understand this and will stop calling.
Don’t argue, repeat things as many times as necessary, and say only what you have to to steer them into saying that they understand the things you have said. Do the same the next three or four times they call, and then sue dell in small claims court for compensation for your time and added stress. I’d see if the non profit could sue dell as well, to add to the good cause. It’s possible that charges could be brought for harassment. Contact the FCC and see if Dell can be fined for harassment.
Good luck.
@FLConsumer: Great advice, except for the bit about the $500 per call. Unless backed up by specific law (as in the case of a few state-specific spam laws) aren’t necessarily entitled to any money for being called just because you sent them a letter. You would need their written agreement for anything like that to be valid. On a side note, EULAs are not always binding past existing law, and you do technically agree to those.
[www.theregister.co.uk]
Now, if this were to become a harassment suit (and if your advice was followed and the calls continued, I imagine it could) I imagine Dell would settle on other terms.
@mgy: I had a severe problem with Old Navy’s debt collectors as well, for a problem that in the end turned out to be THEIR fault instead of mine.
They called me 10 times a day for a week before I finally managed to answer the phone (they only called during my work hours, when I had the phone in a locker and couldn’t answer). Nothing I said or did helped, they wanted me to pay a fee and a charge that I didn’t feel I owed because it was their mistake in the first place. They promised me they would take care of it, they never did.
This hassle ended up lasting two months, and the result was not just that I ended up paying $80 for a $20 charge just to get them to leave me alone, but also that I closed the account after the first charge and refuse to shop with them or any of their associated companies again.
I think I came out better in the long run because their products are terrible, but I strongly suggest that nobody ever, ever consider getting an Old Navy/Gap credit card.
Ever. Ten calls a day is not me exaggerating, I started keeping track.
Good luck to the OP, if this doesn’t solve her problem she certainly should call a lawyer. I believe collectors are only allowed to call a certain number of times, and this probably exceeds it.
i think she should pay the bill, that will shoe them, who will they call then?
I had a similar situation to this courtesy of Sprint’s “outsourced to Jamaica” debt collection. Although they had the correct number (not hard for Sprint to find) and person (me), unbeknownst to me their warehouse never logged in some returned phones a few months prior to them calling me. Even though I had deliberately charged the phones to my credit card to avoid any interaction with my service account, Sprint (probably illegally) credited my service account and THEN charged the service account for the phone hardware. The long and the short of it was when I mentioned to my credit card that Sprint was long overdue with a credit for the returned phones and have all documentation, they investigated it and eventually put a chargeback through. At that point Sprint put the service account into arrears without bothering to tell me, and then suddenly some debt collectors on the island of Jamaica are shaking me down for two thousand dollars – and told me all of my phones would be turned off the next day if I didn’t send them $2000.00 I did not owe them. It was my first interaction with a “debt collection” process as I have always paid all my (legitimate) bills, and I was told over and over by the Jamaican idiots as well as the CSRs that once it reaches collections you can only pay them whatever they demand if you want them to go away. Mafioso tactics like that are bad enough, even worse when they are trying to collect a non-existent debt… and they seem to have set up the system with absolutely no way to get their records corrected. Not even Sprint CSRs that could SEE Sprint’s error had any method of staving off a complete disconnect within 8 hours.
In my case it was my entire family’s cell service at risk, in the OP’s case it’s her sanity and her job. From Dell’s agent’s behavior, they’ve obviously also set up a pattern of harassing innocent people with absolutely no way of correcting it. Dell has corporate locations in United States soil, and you should be able to subpoena and take them to court once you’ve documented enough of this criminal behavior. I know for a fact that Dell hides their Executive Escalation offices behind a frustratingly deep army of idiot minions (a huge layer apparently in India), so it looks like if they already haven’t taken the hint then you might consider the recording and documenting noted above, then invest the $100.00 to sue the bastards in small claims for the lost work hours and whatever else they are violating with this. At a minimum send a registered letter to their “Executive Counsel” at the address here: [www.hoovers.com]
alerting them of your phone number and that they have been made well aware many times of the fact that their agents are illegally harrassing you and that you are prepared to take legal action against them if they do not cease and desist. You might even ask for some financial reimbursement for you and your employer for the damage already incurred, what the hell.
BTW – IANAL. But I do buy stuff.
Re: the people with the Old Navy harassments. I can’t imagine those cards in the long run having any benefits to them. In the long run you would have spent less effort, headache and probably money if you paid cash or used a regular debit or credit card.
I had some dweeb in an Old Navy ask me six times in the process of paying for a couple of t-shirts if I wanted to sign up for a card. There is obviously some serious profit margin in getting people to use these cards.
Do these calls originate from Dell’s Buffalo office.
@Meiran: 10 calls a day is a lowball estimate I’d say. She had explained to them that the payment was already in the mail, but it never stopped them.
@Meiran: Call up Gap HQ in San Francisco [www.hoovers.com] and request your money back, with interest *and* an apology letter and maybe a store credit for pulling that shit. Even though these companies outsource their credit operations to global nogoodnicks like G.E. Capital and others, it’s still THEIR company name on the cards and it’s up to *THEM* to make sure their outsourced credit thugs aren’t mucking up their expensive corporate image by wrongly shaking down innocent people. Paying the thugs off so they “go away” works to get them off your back, but then they are more emboldened down the road to continue screwing with other innocent people – which will eventually be YOU again (via another company’s card if necessary). Gap sales and reputation have been gradually sinking into the toilet for years, and for what they put you through may be open to making things right for you. AND – when an exec gets personally involved, it finally has a chance of changing the problem. CSRs can’t do much if anything – regardless of their IQ and ethics, they’re stuck with what the computer lets them do… It’s the Big Shots that hold all the control, and those are the ones you need to reach.
@socalrob: I know many (including people close to the family) that work for these tech companies, and ~85-95% of the time, it’s NOT the people themselves, but the company they work for (in this case, Dell) that engages in these shady practices, or orders the tech guys to do so. The poor tech guys risk losing their jobs if they don’t comply, then get blamed by the governments (Indian and US) if the company gets caught. (In this case I bet they didn’t get the money from the guy who owes, and Dell wanted the money paid no matter what) It’s a sad catch-22, and part of the reason my own mother quit working for tech support (here in the US, but for similar reasons). Many less wealthier workers probably didn’t have that option, both in India and America. That’s why I try to make it a point to shop where I know the businesses don’t do this kind of thing.
The Feds act on very, very few of the complaints.
The issue here is the fact that the FDCPA only applies to 3rd party debt collectors. If the person calling is a Dell employee, collecting under Dell’s name, the FDCPA does not apply, and the OP can’t utilize its protections. See 15 U.S.C. 1692 §806(b) and (b). The OP needs to ascertain who the person calling actually works for, and if it is indeed a 3rd party debt collection agency, and not a Dell subsidiary, I’d also suggest going the attorney route. This isn’t to say there are not other civil remedies for the situation, but the FDCPA isn’t one of them.
I’ve found from experience that the best way to get the bill collectors, and others, to leave me alone is to help them out since they can’t seem to do their jobs very well.
When I started getting calls for my X on an Mervyn’s credit card account he was not paying, I GLADLY just gave them his new address and phone number. Took care of that problem and got a bit of revenge in to boot.
When I kept continually receiving collection calls at my home number that I have had for 5 years for a man I don’t know I just looked his telephone number up in my local phone book and gave it to them. NO calls for him since. This after a year of receiving calls asking for this man and telling them that NO this was not his number. I guess it hadn’t occurred to this “Bill collection professional” to just try calling directory assistance.
A pissed off eBay buyer who was given my telephone number by an online people search company as being an acquaintance to a eBay seller who had ripped him off for a $1,000.00 on stereo equipment. He had a name, but that was all. A short Zabasearch.com search found the guy living in California.
Isn’t there a FDCA rule that says he can request in writing that they no longer call him?
While Dell has made a mistake, the people the OP is writing to clearly do not know about it. Yelling at them in a long meandering letter is not a productive start…
@snowpuff: Of course they don’t know about it. That’s the point of the letter. They are the movers and shakers. They get things done. Obviously the OP has attempted the traditional routes, and had no luck. I applaud the EECB attempt in this circumstance.
Can you tell them “hold on a moment” and then leave them on hold indefinately? That’ll put a crimp in the # of calls they get to make (assuming they’re paid by the call.)
Another thing you could do is use 3 way calling to forward them to a different dell 800#. Then they’re calling themselves! It doesn’t help you, but it might make you feel better to know that they’re just annoying each other. :p
@Pylon83:
You are correct. The FDCPA only covers third party collectors and Debt Buyers. Since Dell is the OC (Original Creditor) they are not bound by the FDCPA.
The OP needs to look in to their states collections laws. Some have adopted the FDCPA and it is applicable to both third party and OC debts.
I think that telephone harrasment charges could be filed. It looks like the OP has a log of the calls, and their attempts to rectify the situation.
Definitely get a lawyer. It’s crossed that threshold and the OP needs to get a court-ordered TRO against Dell for calling. I think a C&D won’t work in this reguard, but IANAL.
I guess I was lucky. While AT&T was persistent at first in trying to reach the deadbeat who had my phone number in the past, they did stop when I called them back and spoke with them.
The problem was with the deadbeat himself. Just when we thought we’d dealt with all his bill collectors, one called me – two years after the number became our phone number – and that’s when we found out he was STILL GIVING OUT our number as his number when he wrote people bad checks and such. We got our landline disconnected not long after that.
@snowpuff: She’s not yelling at them, she’s explaining the situation — since they don’t know about it. Of course she sounds frustrated, but not whiny or belligerent.
And if the story is “meandering,” it’s because Dell is incapable of resolving a simple issue when given the necessary information. She’s just telling the story of their repeated failure. It’s their fault it’s gone on so long.
If it’s not your bill, it’s not your problem. Get caller ID and use it. If you insist on talking to them, get them to send you the bill they say you owe. Once you have the bill, you can dispute it once and for all with a letter by stating – in as few words as possible – that the bill isn’t yours. Someone will have to be named as the debtor. Forget about a lawsuit – you are getting some bad advice about that.
I wouldn’t waste my time with it. Get a new phone number and distribute it to all of your clients. Whenever someone legit calls you on the old number, give them the new number. After a short time, you won’t have any legit calls on the old number.
Sue them for harrassment for the max possible in small claims court. Have them served at a Dell kiosk (if there are any left…). They won’t show up and you’ll win a default judgement.
Most telephone carriers have call blocking. Block the telephone number. Get an air horn and activate into the receiver every time they call.
@calvinneal:
“They know nothing of your rights, Remember, these are people that have complete contempt for Americans.”
These people are agents of Dell, so Dell is responsible for their work related actions and could probably be taken to court to stop this harassment.
This happened to me once, from some collection agency looking for a guy. They threatened, called me names, etc and no matter how often I told them he doesn’t live here it didn’t matter. I had the phone line for at least five years and I told the person that there was no way that this was the number of the person they were looking for unless they were given a fake number and I was the unlucky soul to receive the calls. The guy then informed me I was lying and the guy had to be making calls from inside my house because that’s the number that was registered. After more arguing, I hung up and called my phone company, gave them the phone number of the collections agency, the agent’s name and extension (which i asked for and he gladly gave since it meant the dude might call), and asked them to do what they have to do to prove that I am the owner of the phone line, not the other guy. I then called my attorney general and filed a complaint with them.
Never received another call.
Under the law the collection people would be considered agents acting within their scope of employment and would bind Dell by their actions.
@edrebber: as much as I would like to agree that the air horn would be a good idea, certainly satisfying, it might open you up to some kind of counterclaim if they experience permanent hearing loss.
The recording of the calls sounds like a good idea as is the requesting of the physical bill to be sent to you. I would recommend that once you have the bill in hand and several recordings of your calls that you make copies and send them to the general counsel for Dell along with a letter stating that you are not the person responsible for the bill and that you have tried repeatedly to correct the situation. Further you should state that you intend to retain counsel if necessary and commence a suit for any and all causes of action (including harrasment and various consumer protection laws) but that you wanted to give them an opportunity to remedy the situation without having to bring the issue to court.
***This does not constitute legal advice. I am not a lawyer***
@onlydarksets: If you choose to go this route make sure to document in detail every expense to add as damages that you expect Dell to pony up. This situation as described has clearly entered the realm of harassment and Dell Inc. is your stalker. If their behavior continues despite repeatedly informing them you are not the person they are seeking AND even going to the extent of giving them the info of the person they seek, then hire an answering service to screen your calls on that number, get another new number, and send the bill (along with an estimate of the hours your org has lost and Dell should reimburse) to their HQ- return receipt requested. Sue them in Small Claims if they fail to settle up with you – these are actual costs of their actions. The idiots are disrupting your work in a major way, and obviously Dell has given their outsourced Indian collection agency zero ability to do anything but threaten people for money regardless of whether they owe it.
@GizmoBub:
That’s an awfully bold legal conclusion for someone who is not a lawyer.
I had a similar problem where debt collectors were calling my brother. I began asking for a supervisor and started explaining that I don’t know how to reach him that the last number I had he doesn’t answer and if they kept trying to harass me for debt that is not mine I would be filing chargers. I also asked for their company name and looked them up on the internet and asked if the address on their web site was where he was calling from, etc, basically getting all the information I would need to fill out complaints and verified it with the supervisor after getting his name and made sure I knew the correct spelling, etc so he knew it would come back to him.
I would attempt to see how much info I could get about the previous customer from the calls, then Dell has the added weight of distributing private information to a stranger
@Pylon83: Uh, while I’m not a lawyer (yet) I do know quite a bit about the law. It’s more an issue of not ethically being able to give legal advice upon which someone should rely as if it were from a lawyer admitted to practice. As for the agency thing, that’s basic legal knowledge [[en.wikipedia.org]) – specifically since there is invariably a contract between the collections people and dell that would be actual authority would would bind the principal, Dell]. So is that enough for you or do you need some kind of memo with case law and citations to Restatement of Agency (Second)?
Noticed that the link didn’t work: [en.wikipedia.org])