Details are sketchy but a Chehalis Washington man is on trial after being accused of knocking down a Wal-Mart greeter. According to the AP report, Don Lynch says the greeter demanded to see his receipt and then the greeter and another Wal-Mart employee grabbed him. Lynch says he acted in self-defense.Now, we’ve done a bunch of posts about how, unless you’ve signed a membership agreement assenting to them, stores have no right to detain you if you refuse a receipt check. However, you cannot react violently. Then you will get in trouble and look like a jerk. Go for non-violent resistance. You must be like Gandhi. If someone touches you, ask them to stop. If they don’t, call the cops and complain that this guy won’t stop touching you. They’re not allowed to touch you, or for that matter, grab you.
(Thanks to Charles!)
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Interesting fact: In a lot of places, recognizing the disparity of size, weight and strength between men and women, *any* use of force against a woman by a man is often considered to be deadly force. This means that in a legal sense, almost any level of violent response in self defense in that sort of situation is legally justified. Given the difference in strength and size, a woman might well *need* a knife or gun to simply break free of an unarmed man who grabs her.
The rules are different when two men go at it, however. Taking a knife to a fistfight is a good way to get into jail.
I’ve got a fair amount of knowledge when it comes to aikido, as well as what might be termed aggressive shiatsu. If someone grabs me and tries to restrain my movement, they’ll experience a practical demonstration of how to break a hold without injuring the other person. If they persist, or two or more people try to do so, I would move on to joint locks, pain submission holds and so forth. But sooner or later in such an altercation, it often comes down to a choice of who gets hurt. And I choose that the aggressor gets hurt, not the victim, if at all possible.
This is a difficult subject. No store, no matter what you sign, has the right to detain you for no reason. Even if they think you shop lifted, unless they are making a citizen’s arrest, they can’t hold you.
Knowing your rights is important. I openly carry a handgun not because I’m a nutjob (yeah, you read that right.
but because I have the right to defend myself. Especially places like Best Buy or Walmart, if they hold me, I make it clear that I can and will defend myself and my property.
Fortunately, I’ve never had to resort to this.
@badhatharry: I’ve made no claim to any totalitarian regime or any sort of big brother implications. You’re making pretty big assumptions with that statement. Why don’t you answer my question? How far are you willing to go to honor their requests to satisfy their policy to ensure you are not stealing from them?
Where I make my stand is being treated as if I’m a thief. The property is mine at that point and I don’t have to show them a receipt of purchase. I don’t get mad when they ask but I do when they think and ack as if I must abide their request.
Most of the folks against receipt checks seem to believe that they are socially suuperior to the lowly WalMart clerk. “How dare they”, seems to be the MO.
The end of store checking is just one of the shoplifting strategies employed by WalMart. That 5 second slowdown keeps grab-and-dash to a minimum and keeps lifters on notice that there is supervision. Think of teachers. Which ones seemed to always watch the troublemakers and how it kept the stupid to a lower level.
For those who have the fantasy of pummeling a clerk or storekeeper, think again. Any judge or jury will very likely side with Granny Gooch who just touched you on the shoulder or with Storeowner Bob who grabbed you. So, you didn’t shoplift? Riiiight.
Juries tend to be working folk who have little truck for snotty wankers crying the “it’s my right to be a jerk” blues. They’ll convict simply because you an assh@t. Especially when SB is a local figure and people have shopped there for two or more generations.
@CharlieSeattle: congratulations on sending an article to someone…so you’re gonna call the police because some person that has a job to do asks to see your receipt? tax dollars at work.
how much time does it take to show the guy a piece of paper?
how much time does it take to call the cops, “sit the shit out of wal-mart”, and get nothing more than a public apology?
@ecwis: there is no assumption that everyone is a thieving d*ck, its a scare tactic to keep people from trying to steal.
i have no problem providing proof of the transaction that just took place less than 30 feet away from the guy at the door.
policies like this might not be favorable or easy to get along with because of the 15 seconds it adds to the shopping experience, but if it keeps the stores numbers more in line so they don’t jack up prices to compensate…here’s my receipt, do what you need to do.
@sohmc: You have my props, i’ve always considered exercising my constitutional right to bear arms and my specific state right to openly bear a side arm. However I’m always concerned is what precedes those rights as many times I’ve seen signs that state no guns are allowed but how does that relate to my actual right to carry my weapon or if i had a concealed carry permit at that point? These are the questions I’ve been left with when considering open carrying.
@braindesign:
I do. I’m under no obligation to prove ownership of my property to anyone, regardless of how trivial or inconsequential such request may be, and regardless of how fast, easy, and simple compliance might be.
OK. If you wish to comply with a voluntary policy because you think it will help keep the stores prices low, that’s fine. Bully for you.
How exactly is saying “No, Thank You” being an asshat?
Again, how exactly is saying “No thank you” to a somewhat rude and completely voluntary request “being a dick”?
You may deem your personal autonomy to be without value. That is your prerogative. But do not presume to lecture everyone else on what to do with theirs. Your insistence that everyone else should be as meekly submissive as you is a disturbing thing to see coming from an American.
For people who really like to run away with this (I mean really want to dig in their heels), next time they give you a hard time and won’t let you go, don’t call the cops. Call your local TV news and then call corporate and let them know their store is gonna be on the teevee!
If they wanted to have someone check receipts to “check to make sure you’re not stealing anything,” what in the hell is an 80 year old with scoliosis going to do when someone actually IS stealing something other than get crippled?
Its not our fault that Wal-Mart can’t get anyone for that crappy job other than someones great-grandfather, so either put a regular security guy there, upgrade your security systems, or yea the old guy is going to get hurt when he tries to detain someone regardless of their guilt in shoplifting.
@TinyBug: “I do. I’m under no obligation to prove ownership of my property to anyone, regardless of how trivial or inconsequential such request may be, and regardless of how fast, easy, and simple compliance might be.”
then quit shopping at stores that you are fully aware of a receipt checking policy and you won’t have to worry one little bit. simple as that. you don’t like whats on the menu, you don’t have to eat.
saying “no, thank you” is not being an asshat at all…the problem is, most people don’t say “no, thank you” they get offended and in the receipt checkers face for doing the job they are required by their employer to carry out. or in this case, they get physical with the checker and in a lot more trouble than its worth.
how meager is your life that you find personal autonomy to be debunked because a receipt checker is holding you up for a few seconds? why is this such a big deal? was there a public outcry against metal detectors in doorways of these stores? a rebellion against prevention?
why not get outraged and outspoken on much heavier issues that affect your idea of what it is to be an American and stop wasting your time complaining about a VOLUNTARY POLICY as you point out, and VOLUNTARILY don’t shop there.
@Sheargenius79: When the alarm goes off, I just go on my marry way. I disregard electronic voices telling me to stop.
If someone grabbed him, that’s assault. He has the right to take reasonable measures to defend himself. Pushing his assailant is IMHO entirely reasonable.
@braindesign: then quit shopping at stores that you are fully aware of a receipt checking policy and you won’t have to worry one little bit.
Why should I shop somewhere else? because you think I should? I shop where I please, and I show my receipt or not as I please. No hassle, no worries.
how meager is your life that you find personal autonomy to be debunked because a receipt checker is holding you up for a few seconds?
Because anyone who stands up for any cause that you deem “too small” or “not worthwhile” must have no life at all
What is wrong with you people? You say it only takes 5 seconds for them to check your receipt and it is no big deal. It is a big deal. Once you purchase an item it’s not up to you to prove your innocence.
@darkened: Depending on the state, the sign may or may not have any force of law. In Florida there’s no such thing as a “no guns” sign as recognized by law; in other states a sign may suffice.
Let me be clear, though – sign or not, if a representative of any store tells you you need to leave because you’re carrying a gun, you’d better do so. If you don’t, you’re now guilty of armed trespass. Not a problem in Florida as there is no provision for open carry.
@TinyBug: i don’t understand your logic.
if you shop where you please, why does it please you to shop at a store with such a policy?
you would rather continue to shop somewhere that you know has a policy that you politely refuse to allow yourself to be impeded by (probably expecting to be confronted sooner or later), setting yourself up for a fight that will get you nowhere and waste your time than to find somewhere else to buy the last dvd set of ‘sex and the city’ for your collection?
i’m not telling you to shop somewhere else, logic is…i said it earlier this morning, if you don’t like the menu, you don’t have to eat
i feel that you can make a larger statement by boycotting the store than by continuing to give them your money and making a fuss when the store asks for something you are fully aware they will ask for going in…
there is no cause thats too small, just approaches to dealing with the problems that are small minded
@pattisod: I just saw this one. I’m sorry, showing your receipt is the first step towards a forced labor camp? I honestly have no reply for that logic.
@smirky: I did answer your question. Your theory of a WalMart greeter following you into the communal parking lot as per store policy does sound a bit like you’re waiting for the other dictator shoe to drop. But to make it clearer, that question is irrelevant, because that will not happen on a regular basis. It does happen in isolated instances now, but that is not a result of receipt showing, just a few overzealous employees who have no idea about the laws of our land. And
Does Costco treat you like a criminal when they check your receipt? It’s immaterial that you signed a contract allowing them to check your receipt, the same intent is there.
There are so many real issues that this site can (and has) help effect (arbitration clauses, Best Buy, etc.), wasting effort on these cosmetic issues is stupid.
Just show your receipt and be on your way. And I promise you, agreeing to this will not result in all of us breaking rocks in a camp in Siberia.
@badhatharry:
1) Does Costco treat you like a criminal when they check your receipt? It’s immaterial that you signed a contract allowing them to check your receipt, the same intent is there.
I don’t shop there; never had and don’t expect to ever shop there. I rarely shop at Walmart even.
2)There are so many real issues that this site can (and has) help effect (arbitration clauses, Best Buy, etc.), wasting effort on these cosmetic issues is stupid.
We now know some of what you think is stupid. However, there are plenty of individuals who think differently. Not every one follows mindlessly. Also, I can and do speak out against many issues that I find intrusive and offensive. Issues such as the Catholic Church and their mishandleing and neglect of the sex abuse issues they have had. Issues such as Treffly Coyne’s arrest when she left her sleeping baby in her car seat while she stepped just a few feet away for less than 10 minutes. You see, I, and many, many others, are capable of addressing more than 1 thing at a time.
3)Just show your receipt and be on your way. And I promise you, agreeing to this will not result in all of us breaking rocks in a camp in Siberia.
Again, I never made any statement that even comes close the above scenario.
Why are you so insistent that other people follow your rules and beliefs?
@braindesign: I’d say his logic is probably that the receipt check which he doesn’t like is voluntary. So he feels free to shop there knowing he has the right to refuse.
Now he does know there are numerous cases where the stores treat the policy as mandatory (illegally) and apparently he is willing to ignore that or deal with it if it escalates.
@smirky: I agree on your last point.
I don’t know why people are so insistent on helping walmart make a voluntary rule mandatory–it goes beyond even what walmart itself would want to do if they want to stay legal.
Walmart has had too many instances of going beyond the law with a trivial policy. We don’t have to coddle them with it, they need to know that protecting customers from ‘rogue’ employees is important.
Important enough to drive home to employees that the receipt check is voluntary and that people who do not comply should be allowed to move on unimpeded.
@Difdi: There’s some sort of Internet cliche being invoked here. “If someone tried this to me, I’d use my martial arts training to escape their grasp. If two or more assailants came after me, I’d switch to pain submission holds and joint locks.”
Then you jump into your Ferrari and go back to your supermodel wife and seaside mansion, right?
Every time i’ve been to Wal-Mart the door greeters are either over 60, pregnant, oddly fragile looking, or for lack of a better term… slow.
Makes me wonder if theres a Wal-Mart out there with big burly men checking reciepts.
@smirky: Why are you so insistent that everyone start a revolution over receipts? I’m just telling everyone to calm down. This is hardly worth the calories it takes for the OP to even type this entry up and send it to the Consumerist.
And as far as mindlessly following, you really do feel insanely passionate about this, don’t you? We are never going shopping together. I’m a mindless follower because I realize it’s easier to just show my receipt and be on my way, rather than spend a half an hour of my time arguing with some minimum wage employee? I stopped freaking out at every little slight towards my personal liberties when I was 21. I’ve learned to save my breath. I’ve learned the difference between sticking up for myself and just being a crybaby.
And the Siberia comment was directed towards the person who compared showing your receipt to complacency with being transferred to a gulag.
@chemmy: I agree. I think its silly that people don’t want to show their receipts. HOWEVER, I did pick something up at Walmart that my room mate had purchased online. An (ass’t?) manager helped me get it out to my car (it was heavy), and the old lady checking receipts chased us all the way to the parking lot, saying we *had* to show her the receipt, and insinuating that we were stealing. I couldn’t believe the manager didn’t tell her to piss off, but after we got it into my trunk, I showed her the receipt, and she left.
If this guy just took a swing at an employee, he should be charged with assault. But I’ve had a firm hand put on my shoulder when walking out of many places engaged in a conversation with a friend. And while he may have been over-reacting, I can certainly understand feeling threatened by some overly aggressive receipt checker, and possibly feeling the need to defend myself. These checkers should be better trained to *never* lay hands on anyone. At Home Depot and Whole Foods near me, they often have their badged security guys doing the receipts. I can’t decide whether having these pseudo-authority types handling it is any better, or even worse.
@badhatharry:
Well, I certainly wouldn’t call you a mindless follower, because you’ve actually thought about it. You’ve chosen convenience over principle, because this particular principle, to you, just ain’t that important. And that’s fine.
But when you mock those who do stand up for principle or, worse, berate them and tell them they should just give in like you do – that’s when people start to think you a mindless follower.
That makes me sad. What makes me even sadder is that after proudly announcing this fact, you actually have the gall to call those people who do care about all those little slights of their personal liberties “crybabies.”
I weep for America
let’s settle receipt checking once and for all. sure, it’s your property once you paid for it. sure, they’re just trying to stop shoplifting. look, it’s a classic grey area.
i always think of it as kind of being at an airport waiting for a connecting flight. think about it. you’re technically in the other country, but then again you’re not.
same here, you’re out the door, but then again you’re not. just show the receipt.
look, these companies don’t hire these loss prevention people simply “on principle”. we’re talking about many, many hourly employees. it simply must make bottom line business sense for these companies to check receipts or they wouldn’t be doing it.
that means that in the end, on the grand scale, they’re saving you money by checking everyone’s receipt. just accept it, and participate in the process.
by the way, i can’t stand to have my receipt checked, and hate anyone who asks.
I don’t know how it is in any other Walmart, but here in my neck of South Jersey the receipt checkers don’t stop any of the white people, only the people of various shades of brown. And before anyone starts yelling that I’m pulling the race card, I’m a white chick. The checkers just say “Have a good night” to me when I walk by, but the brown people will be lined up waiting for their receipts to be scrutinized. What’s up with that?
@rmz:
Nope. Ride the bus home to my single bedroom apartment. Last time I checked, aikido really existed in real life, not just as something made up for the internet.