Here’s a question where money meets ethics: should kids be paid for good results in school? No, we’re not talking about parents dishing out the occasional $5 or $10 bill to junior for getting an “A”. Instead, there’s a new sheriff in town. Now schools and teachers are doing the giving and are handing out much more than most moms and dads. The details:
The fourth graders squirmed in their seats, waiting for their prizes. In a few minutes, they would learn how much money they had earned for their scores on recent reading and math exams. Some would receive nearly $50 for acing the standardized tests, a small fortune for many at this school, P.S. 188 on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
And it’s not only the kids making money off the scores…
The children were unaware that their teacher, Ruth Lopez, also stood to gain financially from their achievement. If students show marked improvement on state tests during the school year, each teacher at Public School 188 could receive a bonus of as much as $3,000.
The objective of such programs, of course, is to give kids an incentive to learn more (which theoretically would be reflected on test scores.) But not everyone is buying this concept:
Critics of these efforts say that children should be inspired to learn for knowledge’s sake, not to earn money, and question whether prizes will ultimately lift achievement. Anticipating this kind of argument, New York City was careful to start the student experiment with private donations, not taxpayer money, avoiding some of the controversy that has followed the Baltimore program, which uses public money.
In these times where American education seems to be slipping compared to much of the world, is this a viable option for better educating children? Or is the concept of paying kids to do well on tests so full of ethical, moral, and social pitfalls that it’s destined to ultimately fail?
Next Question: Can Students Be Paid to Excel? [New York Times]
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Giving teachers performance based bonuses is a GREAT idea.
Giving kids money probably works. But I’m not sure that is the point of school. But then, if learning (for whatever reason) isn’t the point of school, then what is?
Do we behave any differently in the real world?
@KenSPT: Dude, my sister and my mom are both teachers, and they are some whiny bitches. The work is no different from being a generic analyst in any company. There’s always some jerk manager or c-level that’s a roadblock to progress for all parties involved. There are plenty of special needs folks. It’s no bloody different.
A teacher’s $/hr figure is plenty acceptable. Everyone else on the face of the earth works 1060 hours a year. Many for the same hourly rate or less than a teacher’s, but with no spring break, winter break, summer off, christmas vacation, etc. when you calc the hourly rate, it’s above many others.
@Elvisisdead: … and they earn every penny, and then some.
Somehow, I see this becoming a point of interest among other countries who wish to get a few laughs at America’s expense.
Actually, the psychological research on this is pretty clear – it’s a VERY bad idea. Some, small, short-term benefits and bigger, worse, long-term consequences.
Science works, if only we’d listen to the answers when forming policy…
I think its wrong to teach kids that there is always going to be a reward, other than personsal satisfaction, for doing well, especially an immediate reward. In their life they are bound to see people that work a lot less hard then they do surpass them. They will probably find themselves in at least one job where they do 2x the work of a higher paid person and make only half the higher paid person’s salary. There is no 1:1 relation between work done and salary earned. The personal satisfaction of doing well must be instilled in a child starting at home with the child’s parents. But many parents would rather bribe their children into performing desired behaviors rather thank taking the time to figure out how to motivate the child without bribery or at least bribery that involves “I’ll buy you this if you do what I want..” Unfortunately, figuring that out seems too difficult for many parents as it involves spending time with the child instead of watching TV.
In addition to the above mentioned bad conditioning of children to always expect an immediate reward for doing well, just imagine the effect that paying kids for As would have on the children that try really hard but just can’t get A’s? I was one of those kids that sailed through school without much effort, much to the dismay of my hard working peers. Just imagine how much worse they would have felt if I’d been getting paid a lot more than they were for a lot less work. If that won’t kill the desire to learn, I don’t know what will.
I do think there is wisdom in making teaching seeem like a more glamorous occupation. I’ve been blessed by some brilliant teachers so I know they exist. However, I worry that a lot of people are teachers because they couldn’t do anything else. I’d like to see more people who could do something else and want to teach come to the teaching field without having to worry about making ends meet.
Worst idea ever. Children nowadays are already spoiled rotten and have a sense of entitlement. The first question we should be asking is where do these rewards come from? In major cities such as Cleveland, OH, we can’t afford current text books. This is bad money management, and sends a bad message.
If there must be some sort of incentive, put the money into an education plan for the kids. It could grow like a 401k, and be used for vocational or post-secondary education. If you don’t use the monies, then it gets put into a pool for the next generation.
It seems our country’s school systems aren’t quite getting the point…we need better teaching methods.
I read a very interesting article the other day about how Finland’s schools are the best in the world and they get much less homework and there are no honors classes:
[online.wsj.com]
This is ridiculous. Its the classes and kids that need to be changed. Make the classes more about the education rather than endless homework and assignments or what I’d like to call an “all about the grade” approach the American system has taken on.
Trust me you do NOT become a teacher through normal means because you couldn’t do anything else. At least in NJ being a teacher through normal education means 12-16 MORE credits than any other field out there by law.
Alternate route teachers though are a different story. They only require a bachelors degree and a couple years in their respective fields + 2-3 courses in the summer.
Unfortunately the way colleges are pushing things the former are being completely over-run by the later. The reason? People dont feel like going through 136 credits of work to be treated like dirt. Most people I know who went to school to become a teacher, ended up going into another field because they cant stand administrators,students, and most importantly parents who dont care, and parents who feel they are entitled.
Well, I’m going to show my age here. Back in “the day”, teachers saw to it that their students learned what they needed to learn – the three “r’s”. They weren’t worried about promoting their own agendas or making school a social experiment. Many had classrooms that had twice as many students in them as teachers have today, yet they somehow managed to see to it that the kids learned what they needed to know. They didn’t have a bunch of aides or assistants running around; they corrected all of their students’ papers every day. They often paid for things out of their own pockets because the school district didn’t have the money – things like bulletin board materials, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. for kids whose parents couldn’t afford any. They didn’t have “in service” days, rarely used “sick” days and they held parent-teacher conferences after school, in the evenings or on Saturday for those parents who couldn’t make it any other time. Sometimes those conferences took place over the phone during the evening when the parent would call the teacher at home. These same teachers had playground duty for recess and lunch breaks and they had supervision duty for after hours events such as sports, band concerts, drama presentations, etc. Yet, somehow, they were able to see to it the kids learned what they needed to learn and we kids did so without be awarded prizes for simply doing what we were there to do – learn. As I’ve learned over the years, my K-12 education was excellent in spite of having no where near the educational excesses that are present today. Just teach the kids and stop the nonsense – kids want to learn, just teach them. Yes, I know so much about all of this because my mother was grade school teacher for over 30 years, so I lived it every day as a kid. She often mentions that she is so glad she taught when she did and that she’s retired now because of what has become of the public education system in the past 20 years.
@Elvisisdead:
how many times have those jerks physically threatened you? how many times have they stolen your car keys? your ipod? your cash? your phone? how many times have you told them to do something, only to see them roll their eyes at you and smack their lips? unless your answer is “all the damn time!” then i’m sorry, it’s not the same thing.
look, teachers are undervalued. not necessarily monitarily (although i like the fuzzy math mgy did!), but at least socially (asif5th is a perfect example). how are we supposed to get good schools without good teachers? how are we supposed to get good teachers without attracting the best and the brightest people? how are we supposed to attract the best and the brightest people without seriously upping the respect teachers get for the unbelievably difficult job they do? the jobs that get the most respect are the ones that get the most money or get you famous. teaching does neither, so why should anyone who SHOULD be a teacher get into the profession? or, for those of us who entered the profession to do good, what the hell is the incentive to stay here? give us more money for doing a better job. that would be an incentive.
i’m all for incentive pay for teachers if anyone could devise a reasonable way to distribute it. test scores or student grades would not work. administrative and peer review would work better.
“I can’t even begin to describe what’s wrong with this.”
@lightaugust: The only thing “wrong” with it is it destroys your failed public school status quo mindset.
I completely support this.
The main reason why students in Asia excel in their studying is because of standardized test. However for it to work, it would require a lot of resouces. The standardized test in this nation is not exactly a real standardized test. The federal government has to mandate a fix test date for all schools in this nation, the department of education has to set the questions and to ensure that all students in this nation sit for the same set of exam papers. Then the papers had to be sent to different states for grading as to advert foul play. This is what standardized test should be and this will be the most effective way for students to learn as they will be competing not only with their peers but with other schools across the nation. Monetary reward will certainly boost the determination to study and to teach. Till we refuse to acknowledge how bad our school systems are and how ignorant many students and teachers are, we can never improve the education system.
“I can also easily see this teaching children that greed is the only reason to get an education.”
@AstroPig7: Success IS the only reason.
Geez… this is something I don’t really like the idea of, but I’m not sure why.
Logically, the concept of “knowledge as its own reward” is extremely difficult to express to children. This is probably because not many adults understand it themselves. How many parents got to work without getting paid? Or even, learn about a hobby without actually using their knowledge to play? A more plausible answer for “why should I do well in school” is “so you’re not a ignorant adult who can’t get a job and buy stuff for yourself.”
I like negative reinforcement better, personally. You don’t do your homework, you can’t watch TV — or you fail a class, you get in biiiiig trouble. But even that should be tempered by giving positive reinforcements when good results are achieved.
Maybe it’s the cash aspect that bothers me. I wouldn’t blink if they got gift certificates or something. But then I guess we’re back to free McDonald’s Happy Meals for good grades…
“Attitudes like that will be why Public Education will NEVER be seen as succeeding in this country, no matter what they do, what data and evidence they give, and what they do to develop their profession.”
@lightaugust: Good. Maybe it would finally be dismantled and privatized then.
“I feel that if I had kids and their school gave them money for A’s, it should go into a savings account rather than allowing them to spend it. I’d probably make that account for college savings as well.”
@theblackdog: Then where’s the motivation? You and some others are missing the point of the entire thing. It’s not YOU getting the As, it’s the kids. You are asking them to work hard so they can give it to you to stash away and use at your leisure.
I think that if they’re going to do this kind of stuff, either let it be in the form of a scholarship or not available to them until they graduate.
Either way, that would prevent parents from trying to pressure Timmy to get straight As and high test scores so they can take the money the kid earns and use it themselves. Alternatively, it might encourage some to stay in school if the $$ is contingent on them graduating in however many years if it’s a substantial amount.
As for teachers’ unions and the like, I’m not even gonna go there. I’ve seen way too many bad teachers allowed to stay and teach because they threatened with NEA action.
@keith4298: Good idea. My workplace is like this. We have the “Circle of Excellence” with individual and team goals in place. This year’s reward is an all-expense paid trip to St. Thomas to snorkel, swim, and go to some conferences. However, I can exceed my individual lead generation goal by hundreds per month and I will still not get the trip if the high school team does not meet the enrollment goals set by corporate. We all work to motivate each other and my performance has improved because I don’t want my teammates to miss out because of something I could have done better.
Correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t the whole point of getting an education for financial success and security? i mean, ya, we SHOULD be learning to learn, but really most of us go school so that we can get a good job and get rich and become successful. …right?
@Falconfire: Agreed. I had several friends major in education in college, but they are not teachers now because they could not successfully pass the reading and writing sections of the Praxis exams (from what I understand, these are the two most basic parts and later versions are harder, so I am NOT knocking anyone who had a hard time with the more advanced Praxis exams). It sucked because they were my friends and I wanted them to do well, but I am glad there is a system in place for weeding out people who would “teach because they can’t do anything else” and don’t have the basic skills needed to teach successfully.
You can’t whip the little bastards anymore, you might as well pay them.
@lorddave: Because all this country needs is a system where parents who have to PAY to get the best education possible, forever dooming smart students in lower class families while complete dipshits who couldnt learn their way out of a bag are able to go to school because mommy and daddy make 100k.
You do realize the only reason private education succeeds is because they legally have the ability to reject any and all students who not only are problem children, but students who have emotional and mental disabilities? Also you do know unlike public education, private schools have no legal requirement to show ANYTHING in relation to standards?
Private education only looks like it succeeds, because they can legally hide the fact they dont unless they take money from the government.
“You do realize the only reason private education succeeds is because they legally have the ability to reject any and all students who not only are problem children, but students who have emotional and mental disabilities?”
@Falconfire: Yeah? And? I’d love to see public education do the same.
too bad standardized tests are boring pieces of junk and don’t reflect much actual learning or knowledge at all.
On the other hand, I would have loved to get $50 for doing well on these junky tests.
@lorddave: Good go to China and Iran where they kill them. I’m sure they would love you!
@lorddave: Also I enjoy how you cut out the parts of my post relating to the fact that private schools have no legal requirement to show they are teaching ANYTHING.
@Falconfire: Because it’s irrelevant. The government has no business being involved at all.
@lorddave: Your right they have no point in manipulating it for votes, which is what they do right now, and very well might I add which goes back to my pointing out the need of “certain people” to have numerical scores for a statistic thats very hard to qualify. But your post proves there is a fundamental NEED for protection of peoples education rights by the government through funding. The sheer fact people like you feel learning disabled student have no right to a education warrants it.
So in essence your argument against proves our argument for. Though I truthfully think your just a trolling asshole looking to stir up shits and giggles.
@Falconfire: There is no right to education. The law forces everyone to have one, whether they want it or not, and whether it works or not. Public education is fundamentally flawed and should be dissolved.
I’m a believer in the old “there are no exceptions to working hard in school” concept where you do it because you’re expected to, not because you get instant gratification out of it.
There’s a word to describe working hard because you’re expected to without gratification.
Slavery.
@Asif5th: Teachers don’t do enough? Are you kidding me?!? I DARE you to try and become a teacher. It’s the hardest and worst (monetary) paying job I’ve ever had. For the amount of work teachers do, they are vastly underpaid.
@arilvdc: Yeah, assigning homework is SO difficult. By God how do they do it?!
@Dacker:
Why are children – not just any people, but children – expected to work for 13 years without compensation, and forced by law to do this? When orange pickers are forced to do that, it’s called slavery. When children in third-world countries work for mere pennies a day, it’s considered sweatshop labor. And yet everyone seems to think it’s okay to make children work for free. Is this something you think should be considered “ordinary”? When you get a job and do the work that’s expected of you, at least you get a paycheck out of it.
Explain yourself.
@lightaugust: What’s wrong with it? I think it’s brilliant. Businesses do this all the time for employee’s that go above and beyond the call of duty. I’ve gotten bonuses like this. So why not if they are a good teacher. And if the student does great, money is a great incentive. Hopefully they are also teaching them the value of a dollar too.
If kids do better on tests, then a teacher prepared them better for it – read: did their job.
Also, the learn to make money incentive is real, it’s called COLLEGE.
Funny thing. One year, my father said that for every A or A+ I managed to get on my report card, he’d give me 5-10 dollars. There were a total of 25 places on the report card that were marked.
Now, this was back in grade 3. I managed to get 22 of those marks up to A or A+, with only the 3 places left for phys ed being the lower marks. He went back on his word. After that, I didn’t bother to try so hard, despite being able to do better than anyone else, at any time.
I think the main reason I worked for good grades was to please my parents. Maybe if parents praised for good grades and punished for bad (but only when appropriate, if your child studied for 3 hours for a math test and you watched them and they still failed then please don’t punish) we wouldn’t have this problem. A monetary reward was part of the praise for me, but it was not the catch all, the catch all was I knew that if I got good grades, I pleased my parents. If parents took the TIME to praise their kids for good grades and to not praise for bad, then maybe they would get the hint and start to do better automatically.
But honestly kids are so saturated in technology no wonder they don’t want to study, when you have 20 Webkinz to take care of, an Ipod, a Nintendo DS, and a Nintendo Wii, and of course the obligatory TV and Computer no wonder kids don’t want to study from a blackboard or read from a textbook as they are overwhelmed with things that are much more technological than doing homework or studying from boring old books(and yes I know many families where kids have all of the things listed). If schools started to use fascinating technology to teach kids then maybe they would want to learn, in Japan the school system integrates the Nintendo DS and PSP handhelds into the system instead of banning them, and instead uses them as an opportunity to teach kids through the various educational games made for the system (of course Japan has a lot more educational games for the DS than the US does.)
If the US was able to get the educational system down to the technology level of today’s kids, we might actually grab the attention of kids and kids might actually want to learn something!
If we make money such a priority the children will eventually look for the easiest source: crime.
Kids should be taught to love learning, not money.
@KenSPT: Well, as everyone does. Nobody’s disputing that the work isn’t hard or challenging. However, all work is for some people.
That being said, I’ve been a teacher. A freaking sub in junior high, no less. It was hard, but not as hard as the job I chose for my career. As a result, I make significantly more than what teachers make (although my mother refuses to believe so).
Teachers have a fair and adequate compensation package for the work that they do and it obviously keeps attracting individuals who want to do the work. Sure, there’s a shortage, but all teachers don’t deserve to be paid more. If they want more, they can get advanced degrees and teach at higher levels. I’ve taught a few classes there, too. Pay is just as miserable for part time non-published professors.
Anyway, almost everyone believes that they are undervalued in the workplace. It’s just that teachers (and other unionized workers) have the uncanny knack to not be able to calculate their compensation package as a whole…. and my mom taught math. When you take the whole package, it surpasses most entry-level positions. The problem is that teachers aren’t rewarded for proficiency or longevity – both which make better teachers.
@evelyn: You’ve never worked in a warehouse or construction, have you? For that matter, I worked in Federal law enforcement, so “all the damn time”.
Listen – everyone thinks their job is more difficult and more stressful than everyone else. Teachers have the gall to whine about more money at every step, when their compensation is equivalent or better than a majority of people.
Nobody is keeping you in your position. If money is the only important thing to you, then you should leave and get another job. With your attitude, it’s probably better for all people involved.
As an educator myself, and basically a conservative, I am against basing teacher pay on kids’ scores. What people don’t see is how many kids, especially in low income districts, have basically nothing at home. Whoever they are living with, be it mom (no dad) or grandmom because mom’s a drug addict, the majority have no incentive to learn. The parents, such as they are, don’t give a crap, and that attitude trickles down to the kids. So, if the kids aren’t going to do anything to learn, you’re punishing teachers for the actions of others.
I’ve seen dedicated teachers try and try and try to reach certain kids, and it constantly fails. The kids have to grow up dealing with gangs, drugs, and a bleak future, so education is hardly a concern. Talk to the parent(s) or “breeders” about it, and they get no support and sometimes get hostility and “not my kid” attitudes. So, teachers should suffer financial penalties because some unwed mother on drugs doesn’t care what her kids do as long as they don’t disturb her Oprah watchin’? I don’t think so.
Base pay on test scores and all you’ll get is teaching to the test. Teachers have families to feed, and you can bet if it comes down to teaching to the test in order to put food on the table, they will. You would, too. That’s survival. If the kids don’t care to learn, why keep your own kids from enjoying their lives just because of that attitude on the other kids/parent’s part? Teach to the test, get the scores up, and get to eat.
Schools are fouled up beyond recognition due to all the liberal bleeding heart nonsense that infests them. The teachers shouldn’t end up being punished because of the decisions of touchy feely administrators or education bureaucrats that demand obedience to their idiotic ideas.
If a carpenter is given bad wood and can’t do anything with it, do we punish him? No, we can see that the original material he’s given is warped and beyond fixing. If you’re sold a car and a year later there’s a recall do you blame the dealer or the factory? I would hope you woudn’t the dealer, as he isn’t the one who built the car but only dealt with it for maybe a year. Same with teaching…if the original material is bad and can’t be fixed, blame the “builders” (the parents), not the “dealers” (teachers).
I do agree that children should get some sort of tangible reward for their hard work, not just a simple letter on a piece of paper. However, having the teachers pay them is wrong. There should be other means of motivation, from the parents at least. At my high school, if we kept up a 3.5 average GPA and weren’t late to class more than once a week, we were given the privilege of going off campus for lunch and free periods. I think this also gives kids the feeling of responsibility, which is definitely more beneficial than a monetary reward.
I also think that giving teachers a bonus for doing a good job teaching is a plus. There are many teachers at my school who barely do their jobs, and they get paid just as much as the few teachers who spend their lunches in classrooms helping students, and staying after school to give extra lectures.
The time has come to look our entire educational model. The problem is that there are no immediate consequences for doing poorly. Teachers do not want to flunk children and schools do not want to keep children back a grade because it will affect the kid’s self esteem. Improve the system by flunking and/or holding back every child that doesn’t earn the grades needed. Also at some point seperate the children with some going on to higher academics and others going on to learn trades. This is extremely un pc, I know, but rather than take opinions and feelings into account let’s use some common sense for once.