Seller Gets Scammed On eBay Despite Doing Everything Right
Read the tragic tale of this screwed eBay seller over on Metafilter. He did everything Paypal told him to do to avoid being scammed when he sold a cellphone, including, when the buyer returned the item, opening it in front of a police officer. Problem was, the buyer/scammer sent back a smashed gold cellphone instead of nice $500+ cellphone that was sold. Seller protection policy should apply, right? Nope, it doesn't cover "items not as described." Failure.
So, as a follow up, here is what happened. Spoiler alert: I was scammed in the end and learned that PayPal has absolutely no protection for sellers against the kind of scam that was used against me.Can I trust PayPal's seller protection? If not, what can go wrong? [Metafilter]The buyer initially filed a claim that the very nice new cellphone I sent him as different in that it was black, not purple, and was significantly damaged, which it wasn't. I responded in brief immediately, telling PayPal that I knew he was lying, and that I would dispute it. I called and spoke to a PayPal resolutions specialist twice, and then sent a long email describing every reason why I thought that the buyer's claim was invalid. At the suggestion of the PayPal representatives, I included links to many different things, including high-res pictures of the cell phone that I took to show color and lack of damage, and web pages that indicated I had a much better reputation than the buyer and that I would have more to lose by trying a scam then I would by getting the money. After one month from the date of sale, exactly, I received an email saying that the buyer was allowed to return the item for a refund, and that he would receive the money as soon as he provided a tracking number. Which was clearly outrageous.
So I spent a very sleepless night, and the next day I called PayPal. They informed me that they would not release the money until I had a chance to see the item. I asked how to prove he sent me back something bogus, and they told me to only receive the item in the presence of a neutral police officer. I also checked my web server logs and saw that they had not even looked at any of the links I provided. I suspect that the case was not even reviewed by a human at this point.
A few days later, they forwarded me the tracking number, and I managed to get UPS to hold the package for me to pick up. Once I did that, they scamming buyer changed tactics (maybe he saw from the tracking that I was having the box held instead of delivered) and he filed a charge back with his credit card company. I checked with PayPal again, and they told me to go ahead with picking the box up in front of a police officer, and that provided with a police report, they would dispute the charge back. They also told me that about 70% of the time they were successful. Fortified with the idea I was doing the right thing and that I had a good chance of winning, off I went.
I spent an afternoon off work, and went to the UPS station. I told them what was going on, and the manager tried to get me to take the box and leave. I refused, and called the police non-emergency line. An officer came pretty quickly, and I received and opened the box in front of him. Sure enough, there was a smashed gold cellphone inside, and almost all the accessories were missing. The police office filed a report of theft that described what he had seen. A week later, I had to take another afternoon off to go to the Police records department to pick up copy of the report, which was a pain in the butt because they charged $5 and only took money orders. I faxed the report off to PayPal and waited to hear about getting my money back that they had held.
Today, they refused to contest the credit charge back. Yes, after sending me out twice to get the supporting evidence they asked for, they didn't even do anything with it. Even though I had police evidence to show that what he sent back wasn't what he claimed to have received, they chose to not do anything.
So I called PayPal again. I eventually talked to an escalation supervisor, and was informed that they only disputed charge backs that fell under their seller protection policy, which doesn't in any way cover claims that the item was not as described. In fact, the 70% statistic that I heard earlier was in reference to things covered under the seller protection policy, and not any not as described scam. So in essence, everything I did a their direction to get the police report was a wasted effort, and I won't get any of the time or money I spent doing it back.
The real lesson here is that, as a seller, you can absolutely positively get screwed selling something. All a scammer has to do is set up an account, buy some cheap things to rack up some positive feedback (if they want), and then claim you sent him a rock. At that point, unless you used an escrow service, you are screwed. And it takes a long time. For me it was seven weeks of stressing about it until today.
Sure, I complained and PayPal is forwarding my case to some special investigative unit, and they were kind enough to refund my fees, but all they will do is block the buyer in the future. The kicker - my only recourse is to sue, PayPal won't release any documentation unless I have a supoena.
So there you have it. It used to be buyer beware, but for PayPal it is seller beware. Anyone can run this scam at least once and get away with it.
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Comments:
while I empathize w/ the seller here, I am more grieved that there are so many out there who are dishonest and look for loopholes to take advantage of others. It's too bad that so many wicked people are out there to mess up the system for others.
There's a whole website devoted to PayPal's shortcomings. Ironically it's called PayPalSucks.com.
There's also AboutPayPal.org and the rather humorous PayPalSucks.org, complete with cartoons.
Wow. I've heard a lot of PayPal stories but that's gotta be the worst one. Everything was done by the book and they still fucked him over. No wonder I try my damnedest to not use PayPal.
You can at least get a little revenge. Since the buyer claimed they returned the phone you sent them, you can call up your cell phone provider and report it as stolen, and blacklist it's ESN so it can never be activated or used again.
We had basically the same scam happen to us twice, both on higher ticket items (around $100 ea).
Paypal has to know this scam is going on and just don't care. We quit accepting Paypal over this crap. We eventually quit bothering with Ebay, too much fraud and the fees were getting to be too much.
What the seller should've done is this.
Assuming that the seller shipped it out via UPS or FedEx, as soon as the buyer said the item was damaged the buyer should've filed a claim and let UPS investigate.
@Geekybiker: I beg to differ. I paid $12.95 + $5.00 S+H for a lesson on "How eBay and PayPal will dance around instead of assisting you in getting a refund". Here's the free version:
1. Buy item.
2. Have item arrive broken, but very well packed in the box.
3. Seller blames Post Office (My packing was impeccaable!). Cash in on the insurance.
4. Post Office blames seller (Item clearly packed broken!). Ask seller for refund.
5. Watch as eBay and PayPal sit back laughing, counting their money, and saying "Don't look at us... take it up with them."
wow - that sucks. I use to sell on eBay all the time - but haven't for the last 2 years (lack of time) - now days, I don't know if I even want to.
Sounds to me like you more than proved the item was as described, especially if they claim the phone you sent was black but the returned item was gold.
Try an EECB and recommend that the reps actually LOOK at the pics, including the eBay auction and the police report.
Take the buyer to small claims court if that doesn't work, you should have all the info you need (name, address, etc.) from shipping the item to them as well as the return package.
I dream the day we get a better alternative for Paypal. (And eBay is raising rates AGAIN in February, so if anyone knows an international bidding site, please come forward)
Yep, my husband and I have had similar experiences. Getting scammed via eBay/Paypal is a cost of doing business. I hate them.
That "items not as described" is total BS. I've heard multiple stories where buyers use that to return items after experiencing buyer's remorse.
@coan_net: Try Craiglist, it's more hassle answering phone calls and often dealing with idiots, but at least you get your hands on CASH :)
Oh ha ha ha ha ha.... Paypal. A buyer filed a dispute against me once, and I resolved it with him on friendly terms and he admitted he was in the wrong, and wanted to continue the order and thanked me for the great service. I mentioned this to Paypal as my response to the dispute, and they went ahead and sodomized me for the disputed amount anyway. Paypal is a bunch of retards.
I used to sell refurbished phones through ebay and thankfully never had this scam run on me. The majority of scams were people trying to get me to accept fake escrow services.
this is why i would never use ebay to SELL anything
once i read their terms i was like oooookaayyyy
@chouchou: Craigslist is only helpful if you want to sell locally. You can't post a listing in more than one city at a time so you're losing out on other buyers.
Paypal's "protection" is bogus. I can't wait for the day when we have an alternative.
OP, are the police going to follow up with anything? Have you tried contacting the police in the buyer's area?
@Copper: I know, eBay raised ''final value'' fees again. Now, it's not worth selling anything, unless you have 50% markup. I wish Google would create an alternative to eBay!
I had something similar happen to me, but I was the buyer. Last summer I bought an Ipod and paid instantly. Despite numerous emails to the seller, I only received one reply saying "it has shipped" about two weeks after I paid. The ipod was going to be a gift for my wife and I wanted it to be a surprise, so I repeatedly asked for the tracking number (which I paid for). Three weeks later after threatening a claim, I get a tracking number that says the item was delivered the previous week. I of course hadnt seen anything. I check with my wife, and nothing has been delivered.
I follow up with the post office and they confirm nothing is waiting to be picked up and that it has been delivered. I live in an appartment, so it is very likely it went to a different appartment or was misdelivered entirely. Based on the sellers unwillingness to provide the tracking number until after delivery would lead me to believe that something else shady may have happened.
I figured that since I had paid for insurance, I was in the clear. The post offcie informed me that the shipper had to make the insurance claim and that I should contact the shipper to get them to file so I could get a refund. I contacted the seller repeatedly stating I hadnt received it. They refused to respond.
After several days of dealing with the Paypal claims policy, my claim was denied. Why? The seller had a tracking number. I informed the Paypal claims department that I most certainly had not received the iPod and had paid for insurance and that the seller had to submit the claim. They said that with a tracking number, there was nothing they could do.
I then submitted a chargeback to with my credit card, which Paypal quickly fought and had reversed on the grounds that there was a tracking number.
What really gets me is not only did I never receive the ipod, but the seller would have had ample evidence to make the insurance claim I paid for, based on my emails.
This is exactly why I have a ton of shit to sell that has been sitting in my closet and basement for over 3 years and I refuse to put on ebay.
I'll deal with people and forums I trust. It may take me 2 years to unload something but at least I will get cash... or a postal money order.
@chouchou:
"I dream the day we get a better alternative for Paypal."
Just keep on dreamin', pal... When that happens,Ebay won't let you use it or solicit it's acceptance. They own PayPal and aren't about to give a competitor a piece of the action. I'm one of the lucky ones : I got screwed for a small amount early on by them good 'ol boys at PayPal and closed my account and never looked back. I have well over 450 successful transactions and PP has only been a part of a handful of them long ago.Let me address this to sellers out there : If you take PayPal, you're putting out the welcome mat for scammers. You have no protection and you will find that the battle lines look like this- You against the scammer AND PayPal , with Ebay the deaf ,dumb and blind referee who gets a big cut no matter what happens.In short, the odds are stacked against sellers in a big way.
Buyers - PayPal can act as kind of a crude escrow service that guarantees that if you get buyers remorse or just aren't happy with your purchase,you can chargeback and mess up the seller in a big way at little or no cost to yourself. Heads I win ,tails ,you lose.
This is what happens when a good idea is left to Wall Street.
If Paypal starts demanding money, don't pay. talk to a lawyer.
Perhaps the seller should file a police report in the town the buyer lives? After all, it's a clear case of theft and he has a major paper trail.
i've been buying + selling on ebay for about 6 years. i've been scammed only a few times, by sellers who sent me dirty, broken or used items that were listed as 'new with tag'. each time this happened, i filed a claim with PayPal, and was able to return the item for a refund.
i haven't been scammed by a buyer. YET. guess i'd be SOL if i was.
I have been scammed by two sellers, the first one sent me a VHS set of Blue Planet documentary when the auction was for dvd, I got reimbursed for that thru paypal protection the second was someone selling New rock boots for $20 bucks new plus $50 bucks shipping, I was protected by that as well. I havent yet been scammed by buyers. The again most of my stuff is hand made leather products, I will be dropping ebay soon once I redo my web site and set up a store, the ebay fees are getting out of hand.
I sold on eBay for a few years, and have since stopped for various reasons, including this one. Bottom line is that eBay is 90% buyers, so eBay will do everything possible to protect that 90%. The rest get screwed.
I've been using Ebay for awhile now and never really run across any problems except for once.
I sold a rather expensive fax/printer/scanner through Ebay and was paid via Paypal. All was well at first, but after roughly 30 days after the buyer received their merchandise, they filed a dispute through Paypal.
I wasn't left with very much recourse, as the address that I shipped the item to, even though it was a Paypal Confirmed Address, turned out to be a mail drop somewhere in Iowa.
I did however have the buyer's telephone number, as he had included it in (what I'm guessing) was his e-mail signature file.
Welp, days go by and he won't pick up his phone, and e-mails all go unaswered; meanwhile Paypal is requesting more and more information from me - all of which I gladly provided.
Finally when Paypal was just making me run in circles, I looked into this fellows phone number. Turns out it was his cell phone number, and I ended up paying $39.99 to figure out who it belonged to.
I used [www.phonesearchcentral.com], and within about 2 days I had the guy's name and actual home address. I called up the local police department, and I'm guessing because it was a rather small town, the police were VERY helpful, they asked me to fax them my documentation and then they offered to drive out to this guy's house and ask him about it.
Well, long story short, having the cops show up at this guy's house did absolute wonders for my situation, as I quickly got an e-mail from him apologizing for the 'misunderstanding' and offering to re-submit payment via Paypal, as well as a few extra dollars to cover my time and Paypal's fees for the chargeback.
Moral of all this? People are way more willing to scam you when they regard you as some faceless entity on the internet. As soon as them trying to scam you manifests itself into real world reprocussions,(sp?) it's not so fun anymore.
This is just even more proof that paypal most always rules in favor of the buyer and why you shouldn't use it even though most sellers accept it. People WILL screw you over buyers remorse and just to scam you in general, and paypal makes it way too easy to do. I sell on ebay WITHOUT paypal and I do not have a problem getting the same prices that paypal users do, plus sometimes I get even more. I have over 400 feedback and sold about 60-70 items this christmas and didn't even get a single negative.
There are way too many bad buyers out there, you really cannot take chances, and with my situation when I am selling on ebay I simply cannot afford to lose the money that I gain from it so paypal is a big no no.
I got scammed as a buyer! I ordered a Spurs jersey - #50 - Robinson. I was actually REALLY excited to have won it since one of my ex gf's kept my original, stitched one. When it arrived, the size 40 fit like a childs large and the screen printing wasn't even straight! The champion logo was distorted as well. I was soooo mad! I emailed the seller to let them know they just sent me a really bad fake. They said to resend it and they'd refund me. I sent it, no refund. Unfortunately, I didn't have a tracking number, so I was out $50 and had nothing to show for it. I haven't used Ebay since...
Ebay just raised the fees for sellers and removed the ability to give a buyer negative feedback.
It seems to be becoming less friendly to sellers all the time. This sort of thing might be what eventually ends Ebay's hold on online auctions.
Check out this ebay auction [cgi.ebay.co.uk] (its closed so it cant be bid on) that I saw yesterday. Its HILARIOUS! Scroll down to the section that starts "differnt ways you can steal this laptop off me:"
Basically explains how sellers get ripped off on ebay/paypal
This same scenario happened to me two years ago. I can relate. "Item not as described" is pretty much the only viable choice for just about any disputed transaction and its how paypal and feebay avoid paying out any of their claims.
There ARE alternatives to paypal, like BidPay. I tried switching to them after this happened and nobody bid on my auctions because I didn't take paypal! You're fucked with Ebay. There are also alternatives to Ebay! NOBODY uses them so there's no chance any seller will sell an item.
@Buran: The problem with that is if you use your account (Meaning you have money in it) and you're blindsided by a dispute, they immediate hold that money hostage. Paypal seldom waits around for you to pay them.
holy cow! with all that evidence clearly stacked in your favor you should try to sue paypal itself!
in addition.... they say that as a seller, to protect yourself you are supposed to withdraw/transfer the money out of your paypal account as soon as it was paid into by the buyer. To keep him from using fraudulant claims to get his money refunded. Of course... paypal/ebay may close your account.
Paypal is by far the worst organization I have ever dealt with. There's no other way around it, they are greedy and insincere beyond belief. People who have never used them have no idea. You can expect to be successfully scammed at least once per year.
even taking the money out results in a negative balance that paypal charges you interest on and will send to collections if you don't pay. Screwed in so many ways.
So funny to hear people say Ebay/Paypal protects the buyer at all cost. I've never sold but I have been ripped off by a seller (item never sent) and my impression was the opposite. In fact it even made more sense to me that they were refusing to help me -- after all, the seller is where they get their money, right?
Anyway, I'll eventually accept getting scammed, but I'll never use Ebay again.
Hmm, I really shouldn't advocate this... but how about taking a line from the sleazy collection agency and giving a 1099-C to the buyer, if possible.
Then they can deal their gain with the IRS and you can get a tax break?
Mail fraud or small claims court.
He had to use some sort of personal information on his eBay account.
@KogeLiz: Bidpay is gone. It was far worse than paypal for customer support.
PayPal will screw you as a buyer, too. Several years ago, I paid someone $70.00 for an item on eBay that they just plain never sent out. The seller never even contested my claims; they simply ignored any and all contact from me, including phone calls, and kept my money.
PayPal's solution to my claim? To assume, as the buyer, that I was scamming the seller (even though they never contested a thing, or even responded to my claims at all), freeze my account, keep the (luckily) tiny amount of money still in it (something on the order of $5.00 or so), and ignore all my attempts to rectify the situation.
Their "system" for reinstating my account to an active status was so byzantine and self-contradictory that I eventually gave up, swearing off the company for good.
Against my better judgment, I opened a new account with PayPal after switching banks (bizarrely, they'll trust you again if you're with a different financial institution -- clearly they're not using Social Security Numbers to identify their customers), but only after eBay bought out PayPal. I don't trust either company, but it can be almost impossible to get by these days without them, it seems. I'm still waiting for some incredibly egregious thing to come my way again through one or the other...
@KogeLiz: I didn't realize that but I'm not surprised. Feebay is like the mob. This was a couple years ago, though.
I had purchased a GC from paypal before the holidays, I didn't realize the seller had listed hundreds of dollars worth of various GCs (a red flag for fraud to me). My GC cost me $22.50. He never sent it. He kept winning the paypal complaint because he claimed it was intangible goods so no tracking number was required.
After calling paypal for a week, a CSR refunded the payment out of a PP courtesy account. I guess that goes along with being a paypal member since 2000 and having a seller rating of 1226.
I also have a feedback rating of over 2700 on eBay. I receive maybe one money order per month for items I sell. The rest is all paypal.
@MercuryPDX: If you paid it with a credit card (I always do when buying things on paypal), dispute directly with your bank, which will forcefully yank the money from PayPal, and charge them a fee for their failure to make things right when you got a brken item.
I completely agree with Jurijuri.
You have evidence of what you sent. You have a police report showing the extremely different item that was returned. File a complaint with the police wherever the buyer is and have him prosecuted for theft. You may not get your money back, but the scamming asshole does not deserve to get away with this.
How does Ebay continue to exist?
@Buran: Good advice for people moving forwards, however I'd have to actually check my cob-webbed account to tell you how long it's been since I've gone back there since. :/
Buyers get scammed too by the seller not shipping the item and the seller pays your money back (as opposed to refunding it). You think you're all done except the seller then claims to PayPal YOU never sent him his item. Of course you didn't send him anything because he scammed you!
The details are, his "refund" is not the same amount as the original purchase so PayPal's fraud detection won't pick up the suspicious transaction. Also, you get charged by PayPal for the transaction.
Be aware!
I freakin hate Paypal. Don't even get me started on stories. It infuriates me that there isn't any other option when using eBay.
Paypal has very little protection for a seller, and lots for the buyer. I've had similar experiences and they are very unmotivated to do anything to help you.