I just love how it feels when you file a complaint about something, met out the results you desire, and the giant corporate monster doesn't understand. Instead, it copies and pastes a completely irrelevant response assuming it will make you go away. What ever happened to people actually paying attention at work, taking pride in what they do, and ensuring that customers get satisfaction??

Rofl, I love that the response is that "we can't give you a free memory unit".

They might as well have responded "we regret to inform you that we cannot provide you with the pickled seal meat from finland that you requested".

Hint for Kevin Lamb from Microsoft: When responding to complaints, READ THE COMPLAINT FIRST.

Why would Microsoft use DRM on saved game files? Is it illegal to share game saves now? Are they that concerned that people don't "cheat" their way to achievement points?

@RAREBREED: I was amazed when I got a response from a large bank that indicated they actually read my email and understood I wasn't trying to file a full chargeback but wanted advice; they issued a provisional credit and let me know that if my (already ongoing, as I told them) efforts to solve the problem directly with the merchant failed, THEN contact them before 60 days post-charge pass.

Sad that it's now surprising when we get what we actually hoped for instead of some random irrelevant BS.

@Aesteval: It's not just game saves, it's saved games, like downloaded games from XBOX Live.

This same thing happened not too long ago to a guy who sent his 360 in for repair and upon getting a different unit back with a different serial # could not access any of his downloaded TV shows, movies or saved games.

It appears that MS has a problem with their gamertag recovery system and they don't give a crap about it.

"Moving the gamertag to play in different locations is how the Xbox Live! service is intended to be used,"

No it's not. Xbox Live is intended to let you play other people over the internet. i.e. your at your house play your friend while he's at his house.

Also, the way you describe it, it sounds like you were using the glitch to give/get achievement points that you did not properly and honestly earn.

@DeeJayQueue: Ok, I see what I did now. I read "saved games" to mean "game saves." I understand why they would use DRM on download games. But yeah, I heard about that previous incident that you mentioned and Microsoft's DRM service is downright broken when it comes to it. This type of service can not work adequately if a user loses access to the goods and services that they paid for.

This is a non-story. Sometimes data is lost. He lost his save game files, not something with value or worth.

People don't have recourse when an os glitch or hard drive crash deletes actual work. MS should just erase his account and start him with a clean one on his gamertag.

His asking for a refund is total crap. These are games and are supposed to be fun to play. That is the entire value of the service. He has already received the full value from his past service with xbl.

@Techguy1138: Read the posts above yours. Your assumption that it's just save files is likely incorrect.

@Aesteval: Same mistake here.

His letter is very poorly worded. In this case the refund is justified since he purchased electronic programs with the expectation that he would be to play them in the future.

Yes XBL is sometimes screwed up as so more for the tech support. I paid and downloaded a picture pack (Streetfighter) a year or two ago. I then purchased a new set of picture pack and switched over. I decided to switch back but could not since I can't find it on my unit. I called tech support so I can download it again but they said they could not find any history of me ever purchasing my first picture pack!!!! And the way the tech support person was talking to me felt like he was implying that I was a lier. So bottom line, I never got it back and was pissed for quite sometime!

@Techguy1138: I disagree. This is a story about how when you ask for help from customer service, they don't even bother to read your complaint, then when you elevate the complaint, they don't read the elevation either and still respond with the same irrelevant non-answer that shows they don't care about their customers beyond the mone rolling in.

@Techguy1138: But this isn't a loss of data. This is a loss of access to data that exists due to an excessively iron handed approach to DRM. And apparently the originator of the DRM is unable to create a work around for the issue thereby causing the paying user to lose access to good and services that they have every right to be able to expect to continue to have access to. If the user has access to their account, then they should have the right to expect to have access to goods and services that were paid for by that account.

These stories have been popping up a lot lately. Is this a new issue or is this the same crappy DRM they've been using since launch? I was under the impression that only the original purchasing GamerTag could play full versions of Xbox Live Arcade games in a transfered GamerTag situation. But lately it sounds like you can't even do that - like some XBLA games are "downgraded" to trial versions even with the original GamerTag.

@Buran: I read his complaint and it appeared to me to be a problem with his save game files. Only when someone else pointed out that this could I see that maybe he was referring to downloaded content.

His letter is unclear. I made a similar mistake as did another reader here. I don't even like MS or the XBOX.

Is anyone suprised why PS3 is starting to finally take ground and why the Wii has been so popular. I read more negative XBox stories than I do positive. I am quite glad not to be a gamer.

Good luck getting them to resolve anything via a BBB complaint. I've had an open complaint for 2 months now for them to fix my DRM locked games, and Microsoft couldn't be any less helpful. I've been lied to repeatedly, and told I would be called back dozens of times, in which they have never once followed up on it. They even tried to fraudulantly close the BBB complaint (case # 22144179), saying that they contacted me and fixed the problem. What a bunch of crooks. Worst customer service ever.

@Techguy1138: My previous reply was directed before seeing this comment.

And it depends upon which part of the refund is justified. The first listed recourse is for Microsoft to fix the problem and allow affected users to have access to their purchases again (a win for everyone, including Microsoft as I think that it would be fully justifiable to see something along the lines of a class action lawsuit over this sort of issue.) The second recourse is for Microsoft to fix the issue so that it does not recur in the future (a win for everyone except for those that need to eat a loss over what they have already lost, but ultimately everyone is better for it eventually.) The third recourse appears to be a full refund on any and all XBox 360 related items that they paid for (both hardware, software, and downloaded content.) I would support the refund for just the lost downloaded content, but don't believe that Microsoft should be giving a refund for anything that remains usable unless the user plans on returning all refunded goods and services to Microsoft as part of the agreement. But even then, the quoted amount would be significantly more moderate than what some people try to get out of a company (in this case a formally calculated number as opposed to a random number with lots of 0's tacked on.)

Even if the guy's letter is unclear as to whether it's a saved downloaded game vs. a game's save file... Microsoft's response still pointed out that they had record of previous contact with him. The drone who copy/pasted that letter could have taken the extra 30 seconds to actually LOOK at the case notes from that call.

It seems like there was obviously some sort of misdirection - If he first called the support line on Jan 17, why did Kevin Lamb try to call him 10 days prior? That would also explain why Kevin thought he was requesting a free memory card in compensation.

While he did a good job in outlining his expected remedies to the situation, it seems a little bit outrageous to demand a full refund on (1)The Console, (2) The Live Service, (3) Every game he ever purchased and (4) Every accessory he ever purchased. They're unlikely to take him seriously after reading that. A refund for just the live service and content purchased through it would probably have been more reasonable.

@Aesteval: That is not stated in the letter. The author of the letter only talks about his personal data that he spent two year gaining. Never is paid downloaded content mentioned in this complaint.

The author never states that he can not play games that he purchased. Nor was any reference to pay content made. It's ambiguous if he is simply referring to save game files, or actual paid content.

This is why I hate electronic transactions with no paper trail; they can easily lose data regarding your purchases and then there's no easy way to get your money back, should what you buy magically turn into fairy dust and disappear.

I like my Xbox quite a bit, but every time I read about MS or the unit itselit brings me one step closer to selling the damned thing and moving on.

@Troy F.: I wouldn't take the date Kevin Lamb gave as being even close to accurate. I've gotten all sorts of e-mails from Xbox Customer Support with incorrect, or completely made up information. They have absoluetly no business ethics when dealing with customer relations. I wish I was exaggerating, but it IS that embarassingly bad.

If you read his forum postings, he is definitely talking about save files and not downloaded games. The saves are sitting on his hard drive, but his recovered profile refuses to recognize them because of various DRM reasons. Anyone thinking this isn't a big deal is obviously not a gamer, you can spend hundreds of hours on these saves and suddenly being locked out of them with no recourse is absolute bullshit.

Either this post is very poorly put together, or Brad is leaving out large parts of the story. Something doesn't add up - you don't need a memory unit to "move" your gamer tag to a friend's, nor do you "lose" your tag on your 360 just because you log in somewhere else.

So why did Brad take a memory unit to his friend's? Why did he wipe his tag from his 360 when he did? Why did he think he'd be able to get his data back when he wiped his gamertag from his 360?

I can kind of see the logic in the third option:

if you knew that The Xbox360 and the Live service was so shoddy (regarding similar issues) then you would not have purchased it in the first place; you want your money back on everything.

Since when are save game files not worth anything? Seriously, try putting a few days work into a game and losing all of it. It sucks. It sucks even more when the data is sitting right there and you just can't access it because of some random corporate policy.

its stuff like this that makes me glad I switch from Windows XP to Ubuntu(Linux), from the Windows Moblie 5 Phone to Blackberry, and no longer play the 360 with anything I am not willing to lose.

@Techguy1138: Even if it is only save data from games; it is not a loss of data that is at issue here. The data exists but is inaccessible due to a flawed DRM scheme. Actual loss of data is a risk, losing access to existing data is a customer service issue that a user has every right to expect to be fixed.

This might sound UBARU retarded of me, but...

Why not just get the memory card back from his friend place? Unless his friend lives in like China or something, I don't see why he could have gone back or waited to his said friend again.

My friend and I have left PS2 memory cards at each others houses many of times, and we just would swap back or something.

I'm also at a loss to why game saves are such a protected feature that you need a gamer tag to access them. Sounds dumb to me

There used to be no problems with stuff like that, and I think what MS did was to reset everything when you recover a gamertag so you couldn't "cheat" by having someone else run up your gamerscore. The whole idea is asinine because the only person you would "cheat" is yourself. That is completely different than actually damageing someone else's game experience by using a modded xbox to use exploits in a competitive online game. Xbox live is fun as long as you don't have any problems, but when you do have problems they don't appear to have the personnel and proc0edures in place to fix their screw-ups. Stuff like this and playing arcade games on replaced 360s should not be a problem at all. We may have to wait for the "Spring" update for them to roll out the fix for this stuff.

I don't see how this can be true, I have a buddy that comes over all the time and when he forgets his memory card he just recovers his GT. He has never run into this problem at all, even during the holiday Live is Alive Skynet problems. Sounds fishy.

@Sailorcancer: Sounds like to me it would be too late for that because the gamer tags information is damaged on microsoft's servers. This would have been an option before he tried the recovery service, which is most likely what damaged it anyway.

Wow, Microsoft must have the Consumerist bookmarked, because only minutes after I posted here Microsoft couldn't get ahold of me fast enough. Frustratingly, they only called to tell me that they could do absolutely nothing to reauthorize my paid-for DRM broken games, and that basically I'm out of luck. I expected as much, so my next step will probably be small claims court. After months of being outright lied to by customer service, it is no longer a matter of the lost money, but just principle.

MS is just as bad as EA. Glad I do not support them.

@Sailorcancer: It sounds like he left the memory card at his friend's place, then did a "recovery", and it blocked access to all his saved data. Even with the memory card back, the damage is done.

This sounds like it is all the same issue, and MS really screwed the pooch on this.

I hate the idea that I bought games, and can ONLY play them if I'm connected to a broad band connection! So now, for the rest of the time I have my 360, if I want to play Street Fighter or Contra, i have to continue to pay for my broad band internet access even if I have no other use for it. What if I move to an area that only had dial up?

I had many issues with the 360,which,eventually led to me selling it.The last straw was losing the ability to load save game data in Oblivion(200+hrs),and Marvel Ultimate Alliance.The reasons for my data corruption are still unknown,but I can safely say it was a different issue than the one in this story.Super-Raw deal to lose ALL your data.

@Sailorcancer: It does sound easy, but it's not. If he went through the gamertag recovery process, the memory card with the saves on it won't work any more than the files on his hard drive in the actual 360.

The issue was never that the data had disappeared, it was that once he recovered his gamertag he could no longer access it. It's like working on a puzzle or a painting for a while and then coming back to realize that it's been encased in unbreakable glass. You can see it, but you can't touch it or work on it. In a lot of ways that's worse than if the data HAD actually vanished.

Gamertags let more than one user play games and track their progress and high scores on one machine, and theoretically lets users take that data with them on other machines as well; though in this case it doesn't seem to be working out so well.

@Techguy1138: Oh man, how could you say that. It's all about your saves, And I would be pissed if I lost Warhawk, Tekken or any of my downloaded games. MS should just crawl in a hole and die. Try to forget about this broken ass system they call the Xbox, and refund the dude his cash. I hope this happens to you, then we will see were you stand.

You know what console DOESN'T have this kind of insane DRM bullshit? All the others. Again, and as always, Microsoft sucks pipe.

The Better Business Bureau? Over some lost saved games/game saves? Yeah, it sucks, but that's just frivolous. Why not go the whole nine and hire Jack Thompson to file a suit?

It's nothing to do with DRM.

The "Recover Gamertag" feature is not designed as a convenience. It's a last resort when you have a problem with your profile.

[support.microsoft.com]

MS has never recommended it as an option to move your profile around.

In this case, there was an issue with saved games - just one of a few possible issues.

@justhesh: Is Microsoft not a business? Did they not sell him something which they then rendered useless? What was actually lost might be frivolous, but being pissed off over a company ripping you off and not caring, not so much so.

Okay, I hate to say it, (and I know I'm going to get hammered for it) but I really don't see anything wrong with Microsoft's response here. As I first read the complaint, and even the second time I read it, it looked literally like he lost what level he was at in Halo 3 or something, you know, typical game save files. Heck, I've had memory cards get smashed to bits and lose all the save game files... big deal.

However, when reading through the responses, it finally became clear that he was probably talking about "downloaded" XBLA games. The saddest part is that only becomes obvious when reading through the forums. I think if you go on any video game site (including Consumerist's sister site Kotaku, using the phrase "saved games" is going to get a similar response from gamers, that he's talking about literally game saves.

What Brad needs to do, is to resubmit the BBB complaint, and instead of "saved games" talk about how he downloaded Xbox Live Arcade games, and how because of this error, he can no longer play these games. As he wrote it, it sounds more like a 10 year old whining that he left his memory card at someone's house and he expects microsoft to give him a new one or something.

Yes, I'll agree that Microsoft needs to do a better job reading the complaint, but I think Brad needs to do a better job writing it. Isn't that one of those things that is always pointed out in how to get the resolution to a situation you desire? Present your argument clearly?

Brad, rewrite the complaint, list WHAT games you downloaded from XBLA, how much said games currently cost through the service and try again.

@Lord John Whorfin:

Could it be that neither PS3 nor Wii has a comparable feature?

i.e. I don't have GPS problems on my car because my car doesn't have a GPS.

Since you can't transfer a gamer tag on either of these systems, you can't have this problem.

Stop trolling if you can't contribute something intelligent to the conversation.

@maverickuw

I don't think that he is talking about XBLA arcade games.

He specifically references spending 2 years time and effort on them - not just money.

People with an over-inflated sense of entitlement suck. And unfortunately today that covers almost all of mommy's precious little snowflakes.

Your gamertag has a guid associated with it that is registered to your gamertag. This was an anti-hacking measure that was put in place. Yeah, Wii and PS3 doesn't have this problem but they also don't offer movie downloads and achievements.

The scenario is thus: When you download something from Xbox Live, the people that can access the data are the gamertag that downloaded it and the console it was downloaded too. Say our litigious XCALIBUR18 decided to download an entire season of "Gilmore Girls". He then brings his tag over to his friend's house because neither can get enough of Alexis Bledel. Now, if there was no protection, then he could leave a copy of his gamertag on his friend's Xbox, while maintaining his own on his Xbox, thus having two people able to access the data at once.

I am sure we can see why this is a bad idea. Thus you are only able to have one instance of your gamertag in legitimate existance at a time. The only way of having two gamertags at once would be to use the recovery system since all transfer systems know to delete the old version. That is why you are given a new guid every time you use the recovery system.

This leaves the save game system. If you associate your save games with some unchanging feature on your gamertag, you run into the same problem of copied data. This counts for DLCs and achievements. If your game data wasn't protected in the same way, then it could easily be hacked and the Achievement Point system would be worthless to everyone instead of just the people who pretend not to care. Your save games identify themselves with the guid on your gamertag.

The part that really gets me, is that it tells you all this. Before you finalize gamertag recovery it flat out says, "Recover your gamertag only if your profile is corrupt or missing. Recovery will delete all games saved for that profile on any console."
He has no case and is just wasting the government's time. I want to add that I love this about the xbox. That way when a person beats the game I know they went through the whole thing and didnt just download some save or borrow one from a buddy.

@Contra666

If he's not talking about XBLA arcade games, then this is honestly a non-issue.

The PS2 specifically had an issue where a demo erased saved games, and had other occurrences of saved games being deleted. Most game consoles in the last 10 years have had issues with that sometimes happening.

Heck, even NES games with battery backup lost save games if the cartridge left the down position while the system was on.

If it's just saved games, boo hoo, start over and enjoy the games over. If you didn't enjoy them enough the first time, then don't play them over (and why is he complaining?).