So, the issue is not asking for the ID, but copying down the info from it, right? Personally, I would rather know that merchants required an ID for credit card purchases, that way if my card is stolen, it's harder for somebody to buy things with it.

I don't know, it looks like a lot of drama over something minor. Sure, there is some risk in showing your id to a retailer, but isn't it worth the inconvenience to know that they check to make sure the card belongs to you? And does the author really think that the clerk is going to record all of his personal information in the few seconds in which he sees the id? It seems especially unlikely at a large retailer like Apple.

Never been asked to show ID at Apple Stores in NJ. I suspect its a case by case basis of a manager or employee not knowing he rules as is the case with most of these issues these days.

Wow....that's hardcore.

I used to work at an Apple Store in both Tucson, AZ and Chicago, IL. I can tell you that, in both places, we were on explicit orders from the management staff not to process credit card transactions without validating with a current state ID or drivers license. In every case we were to state that this was for the customers "safety and protection".

Customers would often get mad when refused, but managers would always hold the line on this. In all my experiences, no customer ever invoked the merchant agreement, and we were certainly not told about it by management. I had no idea these terms existed.

If he had his wallet stolen and the crook went down to the Apple store and bought $10,000 worth of stuff, he'd probably be complaining to Steve Jobs that they *didn't* adequately check ID.

The credit card companies put the entire onus for combating fraud upon the merchant. Of course the merchant is going to ask for ID, get over it. I also enjoy the irony that this person is asking Citibank to do something about privacy issues. Puh-lease!

BTW, even though it is in the Merchant Agreement, I would try to get idea if I had a store. The Merchant is screwed when you charge-back. If they had taken a stolen card, as far as I know, they are on the hook for the lost cash.

Cover themselves. I also wouldn't give my DL info though.

huh? what? since when did requiring ID violate merchant agreement? now granted i've been out of the retail business for a few years now but when i was, i asked for ID with cards. i guess i'm not understanding the danger here. i agree with the California law stating that such info cannot be written down. but a mere glance to ensure that Jane Doe on her Visa card really is Jane Doe is not a bad thing. does someone care to enlighten me as to why asking for ID with a credit card is a bad thing?

(d) This section does not prohibit any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation from requiring the cardholder, as a condition to accepting the credit card as payment in full or in part for goods or services, to provide reasonable forms of positive identification, which may include a driver's license or a California state identification card.

Hmm...weird. Seems like they did nothing wrong. Maybe had he requested that they only use his ID for identity verification and they recorded his data anyway he would have a point, but that isn't what happened. Hell, his own bank even told him he was wrong.

This is just the case of a consumer getting all up in arms over something they did wrong. This should be tagged with Bad Consumer.

@B: Why should you care? It's not your liability. I would rather minimize the risk of identity theft, since that's my problem (credit card account theft is NOT the same thing as identity theft, despite the fact that the media and others seem to use the term interchangeably).

The agreement doesn't seem to prohibit a merchant from checking ID to verify identity, just from writing down details from that ID.

What happens if you just show the ID without handing it over - if the merchant starts to write anything down you can stop the transaction. But from what you've written, I think that your complaints are a little premature.

All it takes is remembering the zip code, which is likely the zip code the bill goes to. Then, link it to the credit card # and expiration date, and you can start ordering things over the phone.

Waiting for someone to start the REAL debate here.. why were you at the apple store! Kidding, but in VA they don't ask for cards. They don't even print receipts, they email them. Pretty cool.

/tangental, but isn't this what the signature is "supposed" to be for - so they can check your signature against the one on the card and therefore verify your identity. I know in the UK we used to have to check and I have been asked to resign before if I got my signature a little wonky. Since moving to the states have noticed that 99% of the time you get the card back before you even have to sign so they couldnt check it if they wanted to - the complete lack of this basic check used to really annoy me, financial security in the US has definitely been lowered for convenience compared to Europe.

The fact that merchants are not allowed to ask for ID only results in higher prices for the consumer. The credit card does not eat the "chargebacks" when someone uses a stolen card the merchant does. The merchant then has to raise prices to cover the lost money.

It is not about protecting the "consumer" its about making the card easy to use, with no real risk to the credit card company.

The Apple Store doesn't capture drivers license numbers on every credit card purchase. ID is used for identity verification only. Any picture ID will do. The store simply wants to make sure that the credit card belongs to the person using it. That seems fairly reasonable and responsible to me.

@hollywood2590: Maybe they have a "right" to it (I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to know). All I know is that I would rather not give up a DL number if it's not necessary. I don't know if the assertions in the letter are correct, but I certainly don't blame the guy here for not wanting to share this info if not totally necessary.

At least they don't ask to see your receipt on the way out of the Apple Store. Wow, just think if the Poster bought something reluctantly showed her ID and then they checked her receipt at the door. She would have burned the place down.

@masonreloaded: Or they are just recognizing that a clerk looking at a signature is a pretty worthless form of identity verification. A lot of people don't even sign a consistent signature. Store clerks are not handwriting experts.

Instead, they are just collecting the signatures because they are legal documentation in case the customer performs a chargeback against the merchant.

It's also possible they couldn't read the signature on the card (smudged or not clear or maybe didn't seem to match what the customer signed) or had another reason to suspect the customer might not be who he said he was. If the former, the license has your signature on it which can be used to confirm against what you signed. It's not like they're going to write down your address and come over later and leave burning iPods at your door!

@B: Thats why you can choose not to sign the back.

Basically customers have the right to choose either way.

@johnva: "but I certainly don't blame the guy here for not wanting to share this info if not totally necessary."

But it was totally necessary. Thats why he walked out of the store without what he wanted and when he reported it to his bank they flat out told him he was wrong. His own information he posted proved him wrong. He's just flat out wrong in every way. Bad Consumer.

WOW! The author sounds like one annoying customer. Get over it and just give them the ID. You don't have to make everything so difficult.

@hollywood2590: Even if he is wrong, he's still not a "Bad Consumer". He can still be opposed to their policy of collecting that information. Like I am. I probably wouldn't write a letter like this, but I wouldn't like that they take down my DL number.

I'm glad merchants ask for ID. It makes me feel better when they actually LOOK at the CC and the signature, ask for ID, look at the picture and then look at me to make sure I'm the right person. However, I always show my ID with my thumb/finger covering up my personal info. They can see my signature and photo and I never hand it over. It stays in my hand. No one has ever written down the number either. I've never had anyone push my on this either. I guess I haven't run into any of these types of merchants yet.

I find it intrusive and irritating when I get asked for ID with a credit card purchase, particularly when it's actually a debit card and I'm entering a PIN. The only time anyone has ever stolen my credit card and used it against my will, it was by hacking a database, retrieving the number, and printing up a phony card that matched their phony ID. So asking for ID didn't help, and it's a privacy issue for me. What if I don't have an ID? I definitely got my first Mastercard check card before I had any form of ID.

I thought if you have a Visa, you're not supposed to ask for ID since it violates their agreement.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with his credit card, but with Apple wanting to know the identity of who bought certain items. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, if the government soon required purchasers of computers, and other communication devices, to show ID.

Wasn't there a story about someone not being able to buy an iphone, without ID?

@hollywood2590: That's in the CALIFORNIA code. But the Visa/MasterCard Merchant Agreements say that it can't be used as to refuse a purchase. So while Cali is sort of saying "whatever you want to do", the credit card companies are saying it's a no go.

As little as I usually care if I'm asked for ID, I can see the issue here. It's the same as Best Buy/other stores requiring you to show a receipt. Yes, it's relatively minor, but it's the little stuff that piles up and results in privacy going the way of the dinosaur.

I have the RIGHT not to show my ID if I don't want to. PERIOD. All you righteous ass do-gooders can go FUCK yourselves.

@Zode135: Maybe you need to get over telling people how they should live their lives.

If he had his wallet stolen and the crook went down to the Apple store and bought $10,000 worth of stuff, he'd probably be complaining to Steve Jobs that they *didn't* adequately check ID.

@zentec: Probably not, since they're supposed to be checking the signature. Besides, isn't that the point of using a credit card? You're only on the hook for $50 if you report fraudulent charges right away.

And does the author really think that the clerk is going to record all of his personal information in the few seconds in which he sees the id?

@charlah: He said he knows from experience that they record the DL number which sounds like he's seen them write it down.

@ ZODE135 - My last comment was def. directed @ you first and foremost.

@brent_w: The card is invalid if it isn't signed.

@MissTic: It may make you "feel better", but it doesn't actually do very much to protect you. And anyway, it's not protecting you so much as your credit card company because you aren't legally liable for fraud on a credit card.

But it was totally necessary.

@hollywood2590: Just because they want something doesn't make it necessary. The part of the agreement he put in his letter proves that he's right when he says they shouldn't be writing down his driver's license number.

Needs more incorrect apostrophes.

Mr Job's, and Mr Rhode's,

Fixed.

Anyone who can't distinguish between the possessive and the plural in a formal letter needs to be kicked in the face.

Didn't we already have this discussion about 2 months ago?

Why not ask for drivers license information?

Because 16 states still use SSN numbers as the basis for their DL numbers. [www.pimall.com]

Because the other states use a publicly available encoding algorhythm to include personal information (such as your initials, birthdate, etc.) in your DL number.
[www.highprogrammer.com]

Understandably the consumer had the right not to show ID, personally, I would and if they began recording my information, I simply ask for my ID back, simple as that. However, I don't understand why there's so much of a fuss. The clerk just asked to be shown a California ID, not to record every piece of information on it. Perhaps, I'm not reading carefully enough, or understanding the entire story.

i don't recall ever being asked for a DL during Apple Store purchases. ... & even if they did, i'm *sure* they didn't copy down any info from it---i would have noticed/said something about that.

personally, i don't see the issue. as others have said, i'd *rather* they at least glance at a form of ID other than my credit card. seems to me that's a safe way to deter people from using stolen cards. the OP is most concerned about them "copying down information" from the license---but no one said they had to copy anything down, or swipe it, or anything else. a quick glance at the name and photo would be all that's necessary to protect themselves (and us) from potential fraud.

... granted, a university ID should be more than enough for that, though. so i see fault on both sides.

@humphrmi: Exactly. That's why I refuse to show my DL at places like Circuit City when I'm making a large cash purchase, because they're going to use it to run a credit check and spam me.

It pisses me of when they ask for ID - I think it's evidence of the further erosion of our society into a police state. I don't argue with them anymore, so I show them my library card. They look at me funny but so far that's it.

@shad0ws: It doesn't protect you from fraud. You're already protected. They do this because it protects the merchant from some fraud. But it's never really to your benefit to show them additional ID since the law already says you aren't responsible for fraudulent charges.

I've only thrown a fit about this once, and that was because I was required to show state ID when I was did not have any. I live overseas at the time, and had for years when I was visiting the states. I did not have any state ID, nor a drivers license. When paying with my credit card at a Best Buy both the cashier and a manager could not fathom that this situation could occur, and would not process my transaction. They insisted that I was either 1) lying or 2) trying to commit fraud, and would not budge. Trying to show a military ID did not help either, because it "needs to be from one of the 50 states." (exact wording, I guess those from DC are out of luck)

It was a ridiculous situation, and I cited both merchant agreements (I tried the same tactic with Visa and Mastercard) and the fact that I was willing to show a government issued ID. But there are situations where "state" IDs might not be available to show, and should not be required.

I wonder if a properly spelled and punctuated letter would be more effective. Regardless of the merit of the claim, I think something more to the point, phrased better, and with better punctuation and spelling, would probably go a bit further.

@brent_w: That doesn't work though. If somebody then took my card, they could sign the back and use it without getting carded.

From OP:

...because I was in a hurry I showed him my University ID so I could get done with it

So he did produce some sort of ID, which I assume, if it's anything like my old college ID, had photo and signature on it? This should have been adequate to prove his identity. This guy looks like you and this signature looks like the one on the receipt. Done deal. Rquiring a state issues id is stupid, IMO.