Etsy.com calls itself “your place to buy and sell things handmade” and is a pretty cool website that we personally enjoy. The sellers who use the site, however, are getting all riled up after several stores were shut down without notice due to simple, easily-resolved complaints from buyers.
Reader Elizabeth writes:
Over at Etsy.com, there have recently been a rash of insanely unprofessional events, most importantly, the closing of several stores without notice and for no reason given, but clearly violating Etsy’s own written standards about the very stringent requirements in place before such a drastic thing should happen
She pointed us to a thread where Etsy store closures were being discussed. One seller with 15,000 positive feedback comments was banned after a single complaint:
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am trying to find out why my shop is gone. I have tried to contact Etsy about it and they sent me an abuse report from a customer who says they never received their order. Funny thing is I can’t find any record of the order in my PayPal account. So it appears they may have shut me down over an order that was never paid for. To all of my loyal customers I will continue to get all of your orders out from the invoices in my PayPal account until I can get this resolved. I am in shock that Etsy would shut me down considering I have almost 15,000 positive feedback. It appears there has been a BIG misunderstanding. I have sent several more emails to Etsy and have not received any response. Please be patient…I am still around!
The sellers are eventually able to get their accounts reinstated, but not without possibly being reported to the FBI’s cybercrime’s division:
A seller DID complain about me – a week & a half after the purchase date for not receiving their parcel, & I’m in Australia & he’s in the US! Instead of referring the buyer to me, giving me the benefit of the doubt or explaining on my behalf that assuming non-delivery was premature, Etsy banned me & issued the buyer with an FBI cyber-crime form to complain about me!
Forwarding routine complaints (or threatening to forward them) to the FBI seems to be a theme at Etsy:
This actually happened to me around Christmas time. I had a customer request a Custom Order & then Subsequently change her mind. I refunded her payment & never marked the item as shipped. About 2 months later I got an email from Etsy saying I did not ship an item and the Customer was furnished with the FBI Cyber Crime thing & my account would be suspended if I did not respond. I responded to the email explaining that she changed her mind & the Payment was refunded. About 2 days later I got the same email & responded agian explaining what happened. I even contacted the buyer (nicely – & asked if she was unhappy in any way with the way the transaction had been concluded & to doublecheck that she had received her refund).She said she had received her refund promptly & was very satisfied since it was she who had backed out of the transaction. She said she had not reported the transaction to Etsy in any way. In fact, she had left me Pos. feedback previously.
We can appreciate that Etsy wants to remain vigilant about fraud (obviously), but not every consumer complaint is “fraud.” Telling consumers to forward basic complaints about refunds and slow shipping to the FBI is inappropriate and a waste of the FBI’s time. Billing errors happen. Things get lost in the mail. If every customer service snafu warranted closing down the business, people would be asking “Verizon? What’s that?”
We wish Etsy and its sellers the best of luck sorting this out.
More shop closures – including a Top Seller [Unofficial Etsy News]
Two Seller Accounts Deleted Under Strange Circumstances [Unofficial Etsy News]
Unwarranted Accidental Shop Suspensions [Unofficial Etsy News]
Another Case Of An Erroneous Shop Suspension [Unofficial Etsy News]
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brepettis , if your livelihood was damaged through no fault of your own, your shop closed due to a staff mistake, and then instead of apologizing for their mistake, the company called you a deadbeat in public, wouldn’t you be a little bit “grumpy”?
This is justified anger. Etsy has damaged ethical seller’s livelihood and their good reputations.
awwww. I love Etsy, I don’t want them to get ruined
I have been a seller on Etsy for a little under 7 months now, I have 100% positive feedback, over 135 sales. My shopped was closed by mistake by Etsy due to a buyer who had made a non-receipt claim; that buyer was me. Altough my shop has been re-opened I have not had any official apology from Etsy.
To rub salt into my wounds I have now been referred to as a “DEADBEAT seller” by an Etsy Admin in a comment above.
Etsy need to publically apologise for their mistakes instead of hiding behind policies they have copied and pasted willy-nilly around the place!
brepettis – The assertion that Etsy is supporting craftspeople by helping them make a living selling what they make is not visibly supported these days on the website, where your livelihood can be taken away at the whim of an admin.
And as for having to be especially grumpy to be banned etc – recent events have not shown that to be the case. One particular admin on forum duty has shown themselves to have a very short fuse, a lack of professional business acumen and an itchy trigger finger where instant muttings are concerned. Meanwhile as sellers, we have no simple button to push to mute her rude and unhelpful ramblings. I doubt if any of our complaints about her treatment of us would go noticed at the top.
Although you state that banning a seller is as a result of non-delivery, the protocol for resolving this in house is apparently not followed. None of the recent shops closed reported a time line anything like that stated on Etsy in what masquerades for the site rules. One of the shops closed was apparently closed as a result of being the buyer in the transaction!!
Something is seriously wrong in the kingdom of Etsy and it’s getting worse on a daily basis. Eventually more sellers will become aware of what Etsy is trying to sweep under the (handmade) rug.
“Grumpy”? “Public hater?” Holy cats, how old are you, anyway, brepettis? You sound like a fan boy defending Britny Spears instead of an employee of an ecommerce corporation.
I don’t suppose you realize, do you, that your post perfectly sums up the PR-laden, happy-happy, “we’re all hip” attitude that is causing many of these problems at Etsy in the first place?
This is to say nothing of the misinformation (a favorite word of certain Etsy admin at the moment) you’re disseminating here. One of the people quoted in the article (and she’s very open about how she’s been treated on Etsy) is magicjelly, a fabulous seller who was closed down for one non-delivery complaint that was groundless. None of the stated procedures were followed in her case. She is not a deadbeat seller, and she was closed down, and I do not believe for a moment that she was the only one.
Please stop lying to us.
I have been on Etsy for over a year and in that time one of their staff members forwarded my business email address along with hundreds of other owners’ emails to one another because they did not properly set the copy privacy settings correctly, watched as a seller was brick-walled because of a mob-mentality reacting to the location of the seller and what they sold, and witnessed one seller come out publicly saying that Etsy had treated her with favoritism. Several sellers were brick-walled after speaking out on the forums again unjust behavior.
A member of another company has had to come on to the forums at least three times to justify their decisions in several really long threads after several sellers were rejected from their juried site whereas one thread attacking a blog was shut down due to business relations. A featured seller was chosen with a basic item line, dark pictures, and limited sales after they sent products to the Etsy labs. A seller who is in a relationship with a Etsy employee had her username changed after it was made clear that under no circumstance would username changes take place (this rule has since changed).
They have hired inept administrators. The one who posted the email addresses also attacked users in the forums while assigned as a forum moderator. The current forum moderator makes sarcastic comments towards users while avoiding relevant questions. She also regularly misspells words and uses improper grammar while operating on a public forum a an employee.
Site changes have become a great issue since emails concerning changes are not regularly sent out and users can go without the information. A discontinuation of the Vintage section was commenced and announced before an email was issued to the sellers. They had no concrete warning many were appalled by the occurrence that was overturned after an outcry. The Storque is a PR prop that does not provide full, relevant information and those who post comments that question the report or provide unappealing information (investor with ties to Walmart) have their comments deleted. Emails concerning the changes in fee guidelines and listing times do not exist.
It would be nice to bring these concerns to Etsy but if so it seems that I and my shop would become targets that would be watched until the opportunity came where they could either mute or brick-wall me.
What I found incredibly ridiculous was that danielXO actually went into the forums, and publicly called out the sellers who were shut down.
[www.etsy.com]
She, and other admin shut down the threads where the shops are asking “where is my store” claiming it is a private matter and should not be discussed in the forums.
Is it private though? Shouldnt the customers out there be aware that the shop is gone due to lack of communication from Etsy, rather than think the seller has up and quit without warning. A seller with over 15,000 positive feedback should have the right to let their thousands of customers know that they did not close their store, It should be known that they were left in the dark. And if Admin did not receive an email back, why did they not resort in the very communication devise they have…a CONVO?!?!? I am just blown away that this was not attempted.
The thread danielleXO started said basically “if you would have followed these guidelines, then you wouldn’t have been shut down. She herself broke the Dos and Donts on etsy, and publicly called these shops out. INCREDIBLY unprofessional, and juvenile. Clearly admin was in a panic when they realized they made a HUGE mistake, so instead of dealing with the situation like professionals, they lecture these shops publicly, contradicting themselves just moments after they claim that it is a private matter, and should not be discussed in the forums. OUCH! Way to address the seller who is in the dark.
That site, and the admin better start getting their act together, and start treating these top sellers who are putting money in their pocket with a little dignity and respect.
Bottom line, this site is run by children. Or at least that is the way it seems. They better start putting in people who actually know how to run a business, and stop hiring these spoiled Brooklyn hipsters.
I have a theory about the etsy admins and a bunch of my ex-boyfriends being in cahoots, and that’s about all I’m sayin’.
That one grumpy person sure has come up with a lot of ID’s to comment on this article saying the same things.
sigh. when will they learn that this a business they are running?
Etsy could have been so fantastic, what an amazing idea and vision it was in the beginning.
I have watched with sadness over the last few years at the way the site has turned out, what with the mistakes that admin have made and the disrespectful, condescending way in which some of them treat their members. I find the site is run in a very unprofessional manner.
The sellers who have been mistakenly shut down this time have handled the situation with grace. They have not been apologized to and have had to endure admins of the site stating in public that they close shops of ‘deadbeat sellers’ and the like. Visit the UEN to see the ever growing list of shops that have been mistakenly closed down.
I no longer contribute to the forums or buy from there, and I will most certainly be making use of my own domain name and other handmade sites out there to sell my items.
Very sad indeed, it could have been great, so, so great.
I do hope they pick up their game, it took a long time for them to lose my trust, because I so wanted them to make it. But this really feels like the straw that broke the camels back. I hope this 27 mill creates some radical changes in the way the site is managed…not holding my breath, but hoping.
Etsy’s name, rightly or wrongly, is being dragged through the mud over this issue. Unless strong steps are taken to handle the issue, Etsy could find itself overtaken by a competitor.
The most important question that, as a seller, I need answered: How do I know that I can trust Etsy?
Etsy needs clearly documented and well-explained policies (we aren’t all lawyers), careful adherence to those policies, and professional behavior. With these, Etsy can be credible. Without these, Etsy can not.
I can’t understand, for the life of me, why they have allowed DanielleXO to police the forums for one more day.
She’s unprofessional and downright nasty. Bring back Stella.
This has become just another boring forum for the same people who bash Etsy in the UEN (Unofficial Etsy News) and complain on Etsy to come over here now and do the same thing. Fortunately, all of this bashing will not hurt Etsy because your group is miniscule comparatively speaking, to the members who are very happy. Seems like y’all have made it your life’s mission to bring Etsy down ‘cuz they pissed you off. Anything from the UEN is not in any way, shape or form associated with Etsy. Everyone knows by know that it’s the same people who post there day in and day out with their complaints. Some of these posts are obviously from the same people complaining over there and on Etsy.
This is the first time I’ve heard of Etsy. With such a first impression – they can forget about me checking them out.
Such is the influence of negative word of mouth.
brepettis, your post is a prime example of the attitude and response Etsy admins treat its members to on a daily basis, regardless of the concern or question that has been raised. No serious dialogue. No businesslike concern or professional representation. Name calling and mocking are the order of the day. Daniellexo, Etsy’s newly installed forum coordinator, is known for her flippant, abrasive and slovenly forum-manner. Example: “It’s not rude – just playful. You can read the written word in all different kinds of tones. Try to read it in a playful tone.” She *giggles* at serious concerns. She routinely baits users into frustrated exchanges. Then, she privately contacts them, through Etsy Conversations, or ‘convos’, to further threaten and harass. What’s more, Etsy has threatened (and has indeed followed through) to permanently mute and/or ban ANYone who publishes ANY exchange from ANY admin at ANY time, whether convo or e-mail, so unscrupulous admins (there are at least a couple) can be abusive with impunity. This is the Face of Etsy on the forums: [www.etsy.com]
What a lovely, threatening smirk displayed in that admin avatar. Approachable? Concerned? Community-minded? Not a chance. With this admin, it’s all personal. And while she runs unchecked through the forums, offending at will, she tells members privately to be respectful and upbeat – or else.
There are no clear policies. There are no checks-and-balances. There is no effective, consistent or reliable method or vehicle of communication. There is no appeals process, even when Etsy is clearly in error. “This matter is not up for discussion.” Is used to stop any attempt at meaningful discussion, or clarification, in its tracks. There is a complete and utter lack of concern for the membership – who are Etsy’s paying customers and clients.
Etsy continues to violate its venue status by interposing itself as an inappropriate intermediary between buyer and seller, instead of allowing shop policies, and ultimately feedback, to prevail. From the Etsy TOS:
“Etsy is a Venue
Etsy is not a retailer. Although Etsy is commonly referred to as an online marketplace, it is important to realize that Etsy is not a traditional “retailer.” Instead, Etsy acts as a venue to allow an individual who complies with the DOs and DONT’s of Etsy to offer, sell, and buy certain handmade goods which comply with the DOs and DON’Ts of Etsy, within a fixed price format. Etsy is not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. As a result, Etsy has no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items advertised, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of sellers to sell items or the ability of buyers to pay for items. Etsy cannot ensure that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction. Consequently, Etsy does not transfer legal ownership of items from the seller to the buyer.”
“Feedback
Integrity: You may not take any actions that may undermine the integrity of the feedback system. Etsy may, without prior notice, limit the number of purchases and listings, which you may place on Etsy based upon the level of your feedback. If you earn a low percentage feedback rating, your account will automatically be flagged for staff review, at which time your membership may be fully or partially suspended, and you may be unable to list or buy.”
[www.etsy.com]
This comment is very long, for which I apologize. But the list of grievances against Etsy is far longer – and growing every day. These missteps and errors and threats are well documented by targeted members, and witnessed by many, on and off site. The fear felt by many members is real. The attempt to censor intelligent and critical thinking and discussion is real. And the reprisals, retribution and revenge of the site admins are very, very real.
Members voice their concerns in the vast majority of instances out of true concern for Etsy and a fondness for its vision and mission. To be treated with disdain and lack of respect is alienating the very community that has promoted Etsy and faithfully weathered its many growing pains.
If Etsy doesn’t like the bad PR, they should take immediate measures to rectify their injustices and poor business practices (or as is more often the case, the complete lack thereof). If Etsy doesn’t want only one-side of each story to be told, why not appoint an admin to publicly address the concerns that have been raised, rather than allowing any random admin to sum up the entire company’s stance in a statement that accuses wronged members of being ‘grumpy’ ‘public haters’? As a collective corporation, which makes such glowing and altruistic claims, they really have no sense of decency. And it unfortunately reflects very poorly on everyone, even the scant handful of truly good people on staff there.
For shame, Etsy. For shame.
Daniel-Bahm, I’d like to think people are a bit more curious than that. If not, I’m scared to see how you’re voting, if you make decisions based on such criteria.
I also agree that this seems to be another gathering ground for those who feel they’ve been ‘wronged’ by Etsy. Stating claims, as TheoLondon did, about the motivation behind Etsy’s actions, without proving or even, really, attempting to prove, causation as opposed to simply correlation, doesn’t help. Yes, an Etsy admin’s wife had her name changed. Why? Because a very large company with a very similar name was threatening to sue her. She’d built up a huge clientele, and Etsy made the decision to allow her to keep that, and not confuse or alienate her customers. Did anyone consider that the ‘no name changes’ rule was changed in response to this situation, one they hadn’t encountered before?
As far as a seller being featured ‘after sending admin presents’ – so many people have done that. They’ve not all been featured. Again – correlation does not equal causation.
In regards to the people who were banned last year, they spent a good deal of time blaming it on another Etsy seller, telling anyone within earshot that this seller had an in with admin and had gotten these people banned. Now they’ve changed their tune, because it ties them to these cases and allows them to continue their crusade.
Do I think Etsy administration behaved stupidly in these instances? Yeah. I’ve experienced some of their ineptitude and rudeness myself, on several occasions. Do I think that the feverish insults and clamoring to make Etsy look stupid at all costs is helping the cause? Not at all.
Etsy chose not to advertise in the mainstream media — the idea was that their growth would be based on organic, street-level word of mouth. That worked for the first while — sellers worked really hard to promote their shops (and therefore, promote Etsy). There was a sense that we were all working together towards the same goal — helping people who make things by hand make a living.
Then Etsy came out with the Gift Guides in the late fall of 2007.
Essentially a juried part of the site, the GGs were handpicked by Admin. Not only were some (admittedly wonderful) sellers included many, many times, but items from Admin members’ shops (yes, many of them have shops) were also included, many of them multiple times as well. A link to the Gift Guide was placed right at the top of every page on the site, and, in spite of pleas from the community, Etsy at first refused to include a link to the rest of the site from the GGs, or even a simple text acknowledgment that the rest of the site was also a great source for gifts. (This was eventually changed, but only after Christmas. Coincidence. I don’t think so).
Sellers included in the GGs were encouraged (by an Admin article in The Storque, Etsy’s PR mag) to list multiples of items in the GGs, so that when they sold, they wouldn’t be bumped of the Guides. Oh, and Etsy didn’t rotate items or anything like that. For the first few months (and this was stated Etsy policy, or as close to policy as Etsy ever gets) items stayed in the GGs until they were sold. No rotation.
The outcry was huge. Etsy was stubborn.
And that was the moment that I stopped being an Etsy cheerleader (which I certainly had been) and became reluctantly critical of the site I had grown to love.
I no longer promote Etsy. I’ve set up my own ecommerce site and direct my customers there. I’ve taken Etsy’s URL off my business cards, and use my own domain name. And I’m not the only one.
Word of mouth built Etsy, and word of mouth can destroy it.
NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader, if one day your shop is closed in error, you get accused in public of lying by other Etsy members with the same being alluded to by Etsy staff, or if this happens to a friend of yours, or if you or a friend gets banned or muted for an unfair reason along with the many others this happens to, or you are on the receiving end of a harassing convo or email from an Etsy admin, then you too will feel much the same as the growing number of disenfranchised Etsy members, many of whom are far too scared to speak out on Etsy itself.
You will also be frustrated by the newcomers who deny that any of this is true and think that Etsy is just fantastic.
If you choose not to see or accept what is going on right in front of you, then I can only hope that you don’t come to realize that it really is true by way of it happening to you or someone that you care about.
Let me begin by saying that I am no Etsy cheerleader. There are many things that need to be fixed (including firing the highly unprofessional DanielleXO). However, some sellers pound issues into the ground even after admin have rectified their errors. Magicjelly, how many times do we have to hear about how your shop was accidentally closed??? Seriously, give it a rest. These same people that bitch and moan *all the time* still have shops there so they can’t be that unhappy. They are just attention seekers, IMO. If you are so unhappy, start your own shop with your own domain and get the hell out of Dodge.
Referring back to a post way up higher, it’s offensive to those sellers quoted in this article who had their shops closed for no reason other than Etsy error for an Etsy staff member to accuse them all of being ‘one grumpy person’. Does this mean that the 20 or so shops closed in the same way to date that we know about are all the same person too?
This is so depressingly typical of the attitude of Etsy staff.
Etsy has screwed up big time on numerous occasions on this front alone (closing shops with zilch communication due to either a problem the seller knew nothing about or due to a mistake made by Etsy) – quite apart from all of the other screw ups.
What any company with even half a clue would do in this situation is to make reparations with those who have had their reputations and businesses damaged and letting the community know that mistakes were made and what steps are being taken to prevent them from happening again.
But at Etsy they just play the blame game and assume anyone with a grievance is just some nasty person they need to silence.
Then they allow and even encourage that myth to perpetuate amongst their own community so that many especially less experienced members truly believe that anyone who has been banned or muted must indeed be an evil person who nobody should listen to, even if they know absolutely nothing about what has gone on.
…all of this bashing will not hurt Etsy because your group is miniscule comparatively speaking, to the members who are very happy.
@AnotherEtsyCheerleader:
1) So you’re OK with making your customers unhappy as long as there are some happy customers?
2) This is not bashing. It’s not even close. There’s a difference between complaining and bashing.
Some of these posts are obviously from the same people complaining over there and on Etsy.
So what? Doesn’t that make sense? You’re probably one of the people defending Etsy in that thread in their forum about this article. I don’t see why it should matter that people have said the same thing somewhere else.
@NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader
“This has become just another boring forum for the same people who bash Etsy in the UEN (Unofficial Etsy News) and complain on Etsy to come over here now and do the same thing. Fortunately, all of this bashing will not hurt Etsy because your group is miniscule comparatively speaking, to the members who are very happy.”
@brepettis
“Etsy is something really special and it’s a bummer that a grumpy person can be such a public hater.”
What these are doing is a psychological practice called “minimizing.” By asserting – without any factual support – that it’s just “one or two people” they are basically in denial that there is a real problem. Humility goes a long way in straightening out these messes, as do sticking to the facts. Trying to say that people’s experiences and feelings don’t matter, however, when it comes to what ultimately funds your paycheck (investors won’t last forever) is dangerous ultimately to your job and business security. Sure, you can’t answer to the whims of one person – but if it ended up on the Consumerist, it was most certainly not just one person complaining.
I’m not an Unofficial Etsy News complainer. I rarely read it or post to it. I am a seller, and I do a fair amount of business there annually. I have sat in on local and extende street teams, and yes, there’s a LOT of complaining about Etsy’s unprofessionalism. While usually the complaints are more of the variety where people expect Etsy to do for them what they should do themselves, I’ve been hearing more and more really legitimate complaints about the way Etsy handles some things.
Etsy doesn’t know everything. That’s OK. Etsy doesn’t do everything right. That’s also OK. Etsy is refusing to acknowledge that it has acted wrongly, and that’s never OK. Seriously, even Exxon had to apologize after the Valdez crashed – if you do it before you slick the ducks, you might even save yourself legal action and fines.
Minimising? OK
Well, I’m seeing more and more voices on the forums declaring themselves unhappy with what Etsy is doing. These are new voices too, not the same old, same old, and some of them come from unexpected sources.
Although only a small fraction of Etsy customers (sellers and and buyers) come to the forum threads, there is a growing air of disquiet. However, Etsy is doing a great job at managing the dissent – people are now too afraid to post anything remotely critical unless they can do it anonymously offsite (as I myself am sadly doing).
Rob Kalin – this is a great community you are building! Makes me glad I’m not in your ‘in crowd’.
Let me get this straight re: the comment by a supposed Etsy employee brepettis posted at 01:46 PM on 02/26/08
Let’s say I call my cable company or my wireless provider or my mortgage company or any other service provider and ask a question, voice a concern or share a complaint.
They tell me that I’m just “grumpy” and shouldn’t worry about the issue I’m calling about because they are a “cool” company and this is a “friendly” customer service rep?
Give me a break.
Customers want their questions answered and their concerns heard and addressed in a professional manner.
If I call a company with a question, concern or complaint I should never, under any circumstances be told that I’m just “grumpy” and that I need to get over it.
Also, why is a selling venue inserting themselves in a transaction in the first place? If payment is made with Paypal or a credit card and there is a problem, the buyer should deal with Paypal or their credit card company to get their money back. Etsy needs to stay out of it.
Years ago I did customer service training and the very first thing people learn is that they need to take the customer seriously, do their very best to communicate to the customer that their voice is heard and that someone does care and will try to help.
If the customer is angry the very best thing a properly trained customer service rep can do is to be empathetic.
Myopic companies who do not listen to customer complaints don’t last long. Customer complaints are the number one way for a company to grow and improve.
For every person who does complain there are dozens who don’t and just leave.
“Complainers” are a gold mine for serious businesses.
At this point there are more and more reports of Etsy banning people permanently from posting on their forum. Why have a forum if you only want to talk about rainbows and unicorns?
They just got $27 Million in VC. That sounds like serious money to me. It is time to become a serious business.
Etsy Admin are, seemingly, not subject to basic Etsy site rules, like full disclosure of all shops. There’s an Admin member of the corporation, daniellexo (the current Forum Conductor, whatever that means) who has three identities on Etsy, but who has only disclosed them all in one of her profiles. This is absolutely against Etsy’s Terms of Use, but then some members of Etsy are more equal than others.
I don’t actually dispute that there are many happy or satisfied users of Etsy. I was happy and satisfied too, once upon a time. Many current critics were once Etsy cheerleaders. Many people are self-absorbed and will remain complacent until they are directly injured or a close friend is directly injured. But there also is a tipping point, a critical mass. Concern for the treatment of others, concern for general decency and fairness are not completely obsolete. Will you wait until it is your shop with the brick wall before you open your eyes?
I don’t have any loved ones fighting in the Iraq war, I am generally personally unaffected. But when I see and read what is happening, I cannot come to any other moral conclusion but that the war is wrong. Some things are just wrong, whether they affect me directly or not.
NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader, I’d be interested to know how you have access to UEN’s visitor logs to prove that their audience is “miniscule” as you so claim. Surely you realize that the number of comments on an article or thread doesn’t reflect the number of people reading. This Consumerist article has over 8,000 views, but not 8,0000 comments. Follow?
P.S. Your pompoms are showing.
Someone up there said I’m probably one of those people defending Etsy in that thread over in their forum.
Actually I’m not.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out who the “reader quoted” in this article is. To make those claims without disclosing the history of said “reader” with Etsy is very disingenuous to say the least. It would be very interesting to see some of the public’s response if they knew that the source quoted in this article was someone banned from Etsy forums. Puts a slightly different perspective on it.
Of course, you will all say, that it wouldn’t matter because you would all still come and post yout exact same thoughts, opinions and experiences and the reader’s backgound wouldn’t matter. If that’s the case, why wasn’t that little big of the reader’s background part of the article? You know what they say. Consider the source.
And I never said that none of those things happen. I just said that to go around telling everyone the sky is falling and you’re next because it happened to me, is misrepresenting the true situation. It isn’t some rampant and malicious plague on Etsy. I am in no fear whatsoever that my shop will be shut down. If it ever does happen and it’s an honest mistake, I can deal with that without becoming the harbinger of doom for everyone else.
And too bad that some people are getting tired of hearing about Magic Jelly’s shop closing. Because she does appear to be a great person who has now become the martyr or poster child for your cause. I personally don’t think that’s to her benefit in any way.
I think you’re missing the point.
Many of us are outraged because Etsy has handled this and many other things regarding communication very badly. From mocking people on the forums, to taunting them via convos and all the way up to over reacting in an e-mail and muting someone for 30 days (which has been overturned, but that does not rectify the first act). This also includes insinuating that those who have had their shops closed this last week are deadbeats.
All of these errors are at Etsy’s doorstep and not those of the sellers who have been brick walled, mocked, harassed, and just generally treated like scum lately by the front faces of Etsy. If they want to be taken seriously, they cannot have things like this happen without a darn good reason. If they want to stand out above the crowd, they need to be phenomenally better than they have been in the past few months.
Having great and solid customer service with competent individuals is an asset, not something that isn’t un-hip or uncool or gone out of style in the 80′s. This is what we’re talking about. Having competent individuals running the face of Etsy, whether it be QC, CS, QA, or the forum mouthpiece, you need to make sure that your error rate is close to zero. This has not been happening lately.
What we’ve been getting are reactive emotional responses from employees who instead of pulling for change, are defending their friends and calling those of us who have been hurt or smeared names.
I don’t think anyone has mentioned the fact that Etsy went MANY months without deducting sellers fees through automatic deduction even though this was considered to be the primary avenue for making Etsy payments. (Was it 6 months or longer that they did not deduct fees?) They then slammed sellers by deducting large amounts at one time. Many of these sellers were not aware this was going to happen. Then to make matters worse many sellers had fees deducted from their bank accounts twice due to an Etsy error. Many of these sellers racked up extensive overdraft charges due to the way this situation was handled.
“the source quoted in this article was someone banned from Etsy forums”
You’re making the error of assuming that that somehow being banned from the forums is solid proof that a person is bad. But that just illustrates you actually don’t know what is going on here and put an awful lot more faith into Etsy’s judgment than they deserve.
Did you know that people have been banned from the forums without any explanation and some without even a prior warning? That when they ask why they were banned Etsy refuses to tell them? That many of people banned have been critical of Etsy in the forums previously? That a number have been banned after reporting Etsy staff for poor behaviour?
So let’s say that your assumption about the source of this article is correct, what does it matter if that person was banned? Those bannings are just another pointer at Etsy’s general ineptness and unethical behaviour, particularly given that the reasons have never been explained to those who were victims of them.
Additionally, the bulk of the quotes in the article above come from sellers whose shops were closed by error and which have now been reinstated. They aren’t quotes from anyone who has been banned from the forums, nor are they quotes from people who I’ve ever seen say a bad word about Etsy prior to last weekend. One of them is a seller with over 10,000 positive feedbacks. Are you saying she’s a bad person too? Or that Etsy’s judgment in closing her shop for never sending a parcel to a customer who had never paid anyway was also perfect?
The fact that more than one or two people were closed down accidentally and/or without due process and the fact that these mistakes span a year or more indicates that there is no useful system in place to prevent mistakes. That is unacceptable.
How many people who had their stores deactivated not say anything at all? Is the number of affected sellers actually higher?
There should be clear policies, clear procedures and any shop deactivation should include several warnings and a review process of two or three layers of personnel. Only one person should be able to actually “pull the trigger” to provide accountability and prevent mistakes.
Additionally, people who have complaints, voice concerns or try to discuss important issues are taking time out of their lives to try to improve the system. If they didn’t really care about the company they would just pack up and leave. They are an asset.
For Etsy as a company, Etsy personnel or other sellers to denigrate these people, call their motives into question or call them “haters” is a mistake, it’s also unkind and unnecessary.
“t would be very interesting to see some of the public’s response if they knew that the source quoted in this article was someone banned from Etsy forums. Puts a slightly different perspective on it.”
Not at all. You’re assuming that because someone has been banned from the Etsy forums that that person must have done something very, very bad which makes them a suspect source of information. People have been banned and muted in the forums because they look at an Etsy Admin crosseyed — recent events have proved that, amply. And (as smallbizowner points out, these are just the people who have gone public). It’s typical of Etsy’s party line to smear everyone who has had a shop closed or has been banned or muted and to call them deadbeats and troublemakers. Not true.
“And too bad that some people are getting tired of hearing about Magic Jelly’s shop closing. Because she does appear to be a great person who has now become the martyr or poster child for your cause. I personally don’t think that’s to her benefit in any way.”
I’m sure your concern for Magic Jelly will move her deeply. She is a great person, and she deliberately made her story public because she was tired of people like you saying things like “consider the source”. She had seen one too many thread where people blindly labelled everyone who claimed to have had their shops closed unjustly “deadbeats” and “liars”. She was sick of it, and came out with her story to prove them wrong. Why is it not to her benefit to tell the truth? No stigma can attach to her because she had done NOTHING wrong. It was entirely Etsy’s mistake, and since she very bravely told her story, we’ve learned that it’s not an isolated error.
One Etsy employee in the forums the other day said basically ‘there were reasons’ these people were shut down which cast aspersions on those people.
The problem with that statement is that one of the people who had their store closed reported a seller for non-delivery.
Instead of closing the non-performing seller’s store, Etsy *mistakenly* closed the *buyers* store…yes, they closed the store of the person who did not receive what they paid for by mistake. They got it backwards.
Anyone who thinks that kind of mistake is OK or should just be ignored has their head in the sand.
Also, that buyer – who’s store was accidentally closed – is now also banned from their forums. They didn’t do *anything* wrong and their store was *mistakenly* shut down and they are banned from Etsy forums.
Sounds like damage control to me.
It’s not working.
The examples of store closures is really only the tip of the iceberg. The issue is really how Etsy deals with most sellers & seller-accounts when a conflict occurs. The tools and tactics include intimidation, written threats, and other methods of harassment. In the last few months, many seller-account issues are immediately couched in personal terms and dealt with as if they are solely a personal attack on an employee rather than actual violations of policy. Rather than referring any and all seller-account conflicts to an impartial mediator, the conflicts are handled by several employees at the same time, appear to be based on a changing set of rules, and are also couched as personal attacks rather than simply notifying the seller-account that they have violated a site rule. In this kind of atmosphere, sellers are resorting to posting on the chat areas of the site as well as other sites that have sprouted up around Etsy – because they can’t resolve their issues in any efficient and fair way.
This story goes way beyond “unfair store closures” because it is really about the fact that an atmosphere of distrust and disrespect has polluted the site. This is not about a few “disgruntled seller-accounts” – this is about using unethical and unbusinesslike tactics to force members to follow and respect rules that are set up to make selling on a community site like this possible. The company is 100% responsible for setting up those rules, and following those rules themselves. This “unrest” did not pop up over recent store closures – it has been building up for months.
You are all missing the point of my comments. Nowhere did I say anyone was a bad person. Nowhere did I say these things didn’t happen. Nowhere did I say anyone deserved it. Nowhere did I say Magic Jelly wasn’t speaking the truth or that she put herself up on a pedastal.
My point is that even if all these everything you all IS true, that it isn’t the end all or be all of everything, as is being presented by certain people.
And it certainly IS relevant to know where the original source for this article is “coming from”, so to speak. That in no way indicates anywhere that this person is a bad person. When I read about claims that a person makes publicly, I like to know what their relationship is with regards to that story.
My point is that of course, as in all businesses, mistakes need to be addressed. And Etsy has not always done so with care. But there is a group of people who seem obssessed with making it out to be something that it isn’t—–rampant, random, malicious and will bring Etsy down. If you don’t believe me, go back to UEN and read some of the comments when some people were banned from the forums. There was talk of organizing and doing something to punish Etsy. That to me, is extreme.
I do hope Etsy addresses issues that are bothering alot of people. I take exception to the fear mongering.
Definition of fear mongering: Fear mongering (or scaremongering) is the use of fear to leverage the opinions and actions of others towards some end. The object of fear is exaggerated; those the fear is directed toward are kept aware of it on a constant basis.
I keep hearing the cheerleaders say “consider the source” when they hear criticism of Etsy. The source in this case is irrelevant since they directly quoted public statements by other parties. Why don’t you also “consider the source” when you read public statements and excuses by Etsy employees? Why not apply some critical thinking to Etsy’s statements too?
Why do you immediately assume that everything Etsy admins have said is true?
Don’t you think a paid employee (with stock options) has a vested interest in keeping their job and covering up wrongdoing by their employer, or by themselves?
Use common sense and apply the same critical thinking to EVERYthing you read, regardless of the source. Pay attention to contradictions, inconsistencies, and do your own research on verifiable data such as the feedback records of the closed shops.
Consider the FACTS.
I am also a seller at etsy, nothing wrong was done to me, but i keep seeing with my little eyes how Admin. slaps people around and damages their reputation, which selling in an online market place, is everything, I think someone is soon gonna take etsy to court and the rest of the sellers will pay more bills.
I had such high hopes, even if I don’t sell much at all, at least I had the pleasure of putting up my stuff to be checked, but now it feels like a boyfriend who has been sleeping around and can really trust it.
Sucks, the original idea was so cool.
Then Etsy Admin should also be acutely aware that scaremongering others into silence is also not a good business practice. Hold both sides accountable, and all that jazz.
Guess what, a bigger newspaper is checking on this forum…
I hope we fall standing up
creatura, the original idea is awesome. Mind blowingly so, but the execution by Admin is freakishly lacking.
Notanothercheerleader, there’s fearmongering going on with both sides. Many on Etsy see how others are treated and are scared into silence or into anonymity. So, please don’t act as if UEN is the one who is wrong in that regard.
In any case, business practices need to be changed, house cleaning needs to happen. Liabilities need to be let go. Most of all, it needs to be realized that customer service can make or break a company’s reputation. If they really wanted to be such a revolutionary company, they would understand that providing the best customer service possible by people who are trained to do so with experience would be infinitely better than hiring the most indie/handmade people to learn these positions.
@NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader:
Lets just forget for one second here that I was ever a seller on Etsy.
As a buyer I opened a non-delivery claim, with Etsy and with Paypal. I heard nothing back from Etsy, and the whole dispute was finally settled through Paypal with my goods being received. When this happened I immediately emailed Etsy with the update and requested they close the case. A reply was sent stating case closed.
(A Month Later)
I check my emails and find a message from Etsy saying my account is closed, nice knowing you. I replied back to ask why, I hadnt requested my account to be closed.
Now, if that BUYER came into the forums for help, how would you treat them? Is this how you want buyers to be treated? How many buyers has this happened to who just didn’t bother returning? How many buyers has this happened to who now tell all their friends about there bad experience with Etsy??
I am not an Etsy hater, I just hate bad business!
@brepettis: Well, apparently not. Corporations never get anywhere by apologizing away their bad behavior.
NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader, since you love to make assumptions, I am going to make one about you right now.
You are not an another etsy cheerleader because you are the player on the team. Stop playing defense, and take a look at the big picture. If an entire article, with this many comments doesn’t open your eyes (amongst the dozens aside), then all I have to say is time will only prove your ignorance.
ILoveBeads, I think you have a good point.
“NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader” displays very similar writing style and spelling/grammar errors to a certain Etsy admin, whose favorite word lately has also been “fearmongering”.
At least brepettis identified himself as an Etsy employee.
@NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader:
Sooooo many logical fallacies…
Fallacy: Appeal to Spite [www.nizkor.org]
Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem
[www.nizkor.org]
Fallacy: Guilt By Association
[www.nizkor.org]
Just to start. You can make as many statements as you like about me, or anyone else who has issues with Etsy, but that doesn’t make the claims false.
@subwaystance:
“In regards to the people who were banned last year, they spent a good deal of time blaming it on another Etsy seller, telling anyone within earshot that this seller had an in with admin and had gotten these people banned. Now they’ve changed their tune, because it ties them to these cases and allows them to continue their crusade.”
I think perhaps you mischaracterize. Even if one accepts your assertion that banned members blamed a seller who had an “in with admin”, both that situation and the current problems are directly related to to the lack of professionalism of Etsy’s management and staff. These are consistent positions, and in no way involve “changing their tune”, as you put it.
Second verse, same as the first.
Once again, you miss the point completely. Or you just don’t want to address it.
I never said anyone made false claims. My point, for the last time, is that certain situations that have occurred on Etsy, are being used in a way to scare others into thinking they will be next to be shut down for malicious reasons on the part of Admin. And you are leading people to believe that it is rampant yet you provide no stats to support that claim. And I don’t mean people posting it happened to them. I mean real stats that give numbers.
Has it happened? Of course. Most people are painfully aware of that. Does that mean people need to be afraid? Not in my opinion. Nor the opinion of many sellers I know and have discussed this with. Most of whom don’t post in the forums and don’t care to because either they just aren’t interested in participating in the forums or they want to avoid being jumped on by people who are obssessing over this.
And no, I’m most definitely not an Etsy Admin. I am merely a member of Etsy.
NotAnotherEtsyCheerleader says -
My point, for the last time, is that certain situations that have occurred on Etsy, are being used in a way to scare others into thinking they will be next to be shut down for malicious reasons on the part of Admin. And you are leading people to believe that it is rampant yet you provide no stats to support that claim.
For me, I am NOT afraid my store will be shut down … it already is. I closed it myself. I have been an Etsy member for almost two years. I once was a cheerleader, but quickly saw the holes in the boat after V2 launched.
I follow this story and do comment where I can about how Etsy Admin are abusive to their Sellers. THAT is a fact. I have seen it, reported it and been following it.
Why does it concern me ?
I would like to sell on Etsy again ( I have not been banned from the site ) but I just can’t seem to justify giving one penny to Etsy while their Admin continue to treat people badly. I even stopped buying for a while, but I couldn’t blame the wonderful sellers for Etsy’s actions, so I do continue to support Etsy Sellers with my money.
I ADMIT I *would* like to see Etsy bought out and see a cleaning out of inept Admins, then I might possibly fill my store again and have fun selling my wares.
See, selling on Etsy was a hobby for me, but as I saw and heard about more and more of my friends ( both Sellers and buyers ) being treated with such disrespect, I just could not support the dream anymore.
I would STILL love to see Etsy thrive, because I BELIEVE in the dream. I just have lost faith that it will do so with it’s present management.
I do not want to see Etsy the company fail … but I will admit that if Etsy Admin continue to belittle people who happen to have more experience in business than they do and continue to turn a blind eye to their own mistakes and live in denial, then YES, I would love to see those same Admin lose their jobs as Etsy investors realize they are a liability to the company.
I am not being vindictive. I just want Etsy to succeed, as a company. I would hate to see it all come crashing down into a heap because the leaders could not see anything but rainbows, unicorns and haters. The world isn’t that simplistic. A company won’t succeed just because it’s ” cool “. They need to have AT LEAST ONE MANAGER with a fair number of years of business and communications training !
I will celebrate the day when Etsy actually IS what it has wanted to be. There is still a long road ahead and the buggy has four flat tires. Let’s not try to drive past the service station. It’s time to bring the buggy in for an overhaul.