Etsy.com calls itself “your place to buy and sell things handmade” and is a pretty cool website that we personally enjoy. The sellers who use the site, however, are getting all riled up after several stores were shut down without notice due to simple, easily-resolved complaints from buyers.
Reader Elizabeth writes:
Over at Etsy.com, there have recently been a rash of insanely unprofessional events, most importantly, the closing of several stores without notice and for no reason given, but clearly violating Etsy’s own written standards about the very stringent requirements in place before such a drastic thing should happen
She pointed us to a thread where Etsy store closures were being discussed. One seller with 15,000 positive feedback comments was banned after a single complaint:
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am trying to find out why my shop is gone. I have tried to contact Etsy about it and they sent me an abuse report from a customer who says they never received their order. Funny thing is I can’t find any record of the order in my PayPal account. So it appears they may have shut me down over an order that was never paid for. To all of my loyal customers I will continue to get all of your orders out from the invoices in my PayPal account until I can get this resolved. I am in shock that Etsy would shut me down considering I have almost 15,000 positive feedback. It appears there has been a BIG misunderstanding. I have sent several more emails to Etsy and have not received any response. Please be patient…I am still around!
The sellers are eventually able to get their accounts reinstated, but not without possibly being reported to the FBI’s cybercrime’s division:
A seller DID complain about me – a week & a half after the purchase date for not receiving their parcel, & I’m in Australia & he’s in the US! Instead of referring the buyer to me, giving me the benefit of the doubt or explaining on my behalf that assuming non-delivery was premature, Etsy banned me & issued the buyer with an FBI cyber-crime form to complain about me!
Forwarding routine complaints (or threatening to forward them) to the FBI seems to be a theme at Etsy:
This actually happened to me around Christmas time. I had a customer request a Custom Order & then Subsequently change her mind. I refunded her payment & never marked the item as shipped. About 2 months later I got an email from Etsy saying I did not ship an item and the Customer was furnished with the FBI Cyber Crime thing & my account would be suspended if I did not respond. I responded to the email explaining that she changed her mind & the Payment was refunded. About 2 days later I got the same email & responded agian explaining what happened. I even contacted the buyer (nicely – & asked if she was unhappy in any way with the way the transaction had been concluded & to doublecheck that she had received her refund).She said she had received her refund promptly & was very satisfied since it was she who had backed out of the transaction. She said she had not reported the transaction to Etsy in any way. In fact, she had left me Pos. feedback previously.
We can appreciate that Etsy wants to remain vigilant about fraud (obviously), but not every consumer complaint is “fraud.” Telling consumers to forward basic complaints about refunds and slow shipping to the FBI is inappropriate and a waste of the FBI’s time. Billing errors happen. Things get lost in the mail. If every customer service snafu warranted closing down the business, people would be asking “Verizon? What’s that?”
We wish Etsy and its sellers the best of luck sorting this out.
More shop closures – including a Top Seller [Unofficial Etsy News]
Two Seller Accounts Deleted Under Strange Circumstances [Unofficial Etsy News]
Unwarranted Accidental Shop Suspensions [Unofficial Etsy News]
Another Case Of An Erroneous Shop Suspension [Unofficial Etsy News]
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Would hate to see Etsy go the way of eBay.
Etsy
Gesundheit!
Some of the problems could be avoided by the customer directly resolving the issue with the buyer, but the last story doesn’t fit that criteria. Sad. I just opened an Etsy store recently and this news doesn’t look good.
wow this is bad news for me and etsy considering I was thinking of opening a store with them.
Where do we get one of these FBI cyber crimes forms? Seems to me that if something taking a week and a half to travel from Australia to the US warrants one then next time Comcast messes up someone’s online billing then that would warrant one too.
If the person here really didn’t do anything wrong, this whole reporting to the FBI strategy could really backfire. IANAL, but if it didn’t show up in the PayPal account records, but you still sent them the refund and/or product and the other person’s filing a seemingly false report with the FBI, that would hopefully get them in trouble.
Uh-huh. Etsy is keen on creating their own competition, eh?
I find this really odd, since my experience as a buyer has been the opposite. I filed a complaint after a seller failed to ship an item for about 3 weeks and lied to me about it. I subsequently resolved the situation by filing a Paypal dispute, but it took Etsy about 6 weeks to get back to me.
Overall, I’ve had great experiences at Etsy, but the site management apparently has not kept up with the site’s growth.
some of the fraud issues could be dealt with if they stood by their venue status and left all monetary disputes to be settled by paypal. Paypal, while not perfect, at least has an impartial and clearly documented dispute resolution system. This wouldn’t work for check/mo transactions, but I imagine those are the exception rather than the rule.
You will find inconsistency and emotional reactiveness at the core of Etsy’s staff. They value creativity and being indie over knowing how to handle customers. While there are some truly great admin with level heads, the new and current forum moderator, has been muting people left and right while she, herself gets to make snarky and sarcastic remarks to the sellers. When she uses false logic to make an argument, she mutes the people who call her out on her “misinformation”. They’ve outright called sellers who have been banned through their own horrid research skills liars and are creating a fascist state where those who want the betterment of Etsy, but aren’t all buddy buddy with Admin, are now scared of posting any ideas and where many go incognito on other sites for fear of repercussions on Etsy.
All in all, Etsy is ripe for a report from the AG, and for other agencies to step in. How they secured a $27 million collar investor is beyond me. Or they clearly aren’t watching how Etsy’s front line is handling the recurring revenue (customers). Maybe shaking the investors tree will result in the badly needed house cleaning that Etsy needs within its own walls.
Ebay and now Etsy too…these companies need to realize that without people selling things, they don’t exist. Making it a free-for-all for scammy buyers out there is going to put them both under.
I’d never heard of Etsy before.
…
OOOOOH! Look at the pretty, pretty yarn! WANT!
They have to fix this. They have to fix this so I can buy pretty yarn (when I actually have the money).
Wow, this is bad news. My wife and I both enjoy Etsy a lot, as buyers. Sounds like they’re starting to work verbatim from Ebay’s “rulebook”. Please keep us posted…
i think this is etsy’s way of getting around having to actually hire someone to manage this stuff. too bad – it’s an awesome site.
Let’s not forget that Etsy calls these people liars, even though they are proven to be telling the truth.
i have a small shop on etsy, and it freaks me out that they’re closing up shops for simple misunderstandings. but at the same time, they still allow people to open shops that do not sell handmade goods. the best is this dude that is selling commercially-made mousepads with bmw logos on them – definitely not handmade!
I’ve been selling my paintings at Etsy for a few years and been pretty happy with them. I have also seen them listen to complaints from their sellers on Etsy’s message boards about things and change their policies accordingly, and I really hope they will change the way they have been dealing with this.
I would be really upset if this happened to me as a seller. I spend a lot of time and energy promoting my Etsy store.
On the whole though, I think they are a good company. I wonder if it’s one overzealous person doing this.
@number13:
Yeah, the obviously not handmade stuff really bugs me too. I think getting rid of that should be one of their highest priorities.
@number13: Me too, Number13. It’s amazing how much non-handmade/commercial stuff is on there, excluding the vintage and supplies that are allowed. They definitely need to hire more people…especially since they got that 27 million dollar cash infusion.
The fear of having one’s shop closed at Etsy for no good reason, or of being muted or banned from the forums for criticizing Admin is very, very real. The current change in forum “leadership” has had a chilling effect on many of the most intelligent and committed Etsy sellers, who find their concerns increasingly blown off in a juvenile way.
I’ve been a seller on Etsy for over a year, so I’ve been around long enough to remember when things were different, the atmosphere was more friendly and everyone pulled together. Etsy has created the current “us v. them” feeling, and must take responsibility for the situation they’ve created through their lack of professionalism and basic business and customer service skills.
Such a shame — this should have been a great, great site, and I’m really sad to see what it’s become.
It’s been awhile since I looked at etsy, but what I took away from it was that etsy was TELLING the buyer how to contact the FBI cybercrime thing – not contacting them themselves…. I could be wrong, though.
This info comes as a surprise to me and I have to wonder if it is really true. I have had a shop on Etsy.com for over 2 years now and have never once had or heard of an issue like this. All of my dealings with support have been professional and I sort of like the hip vibe of people that run it. Etsy has been a great way for me to do what I want with my life. Every site has it’s issues, but overall I’m sticking with Etsy on this one.
We’re actually very friendly people here at Etsy who work hard to maintain a site that gives people who make things a chance to support themselves by making things. Most of the info in this article is from a one grumpy person. I sit near the support people and it’s actually really really really hard to get banned from Etsy for being a grumpy person because we actually value constructive criticism and feedback. We’ve made over a dozen changes that have been suggested by users this month. Most of the people we ban are for non-delivery and that’s to protect buyers from deadbeat sellers. Etsy is something really special and it’s a bummer that a grumpy person can be such a public hater.
This is such a shame. I got a vintage Victorian purse for my wedding through Etsy and have had wonderful experiences with the sellers there. The seller had forgotten to send the purse, and I sent a simple inquiry asking what the status was with plenty of time left before it was needed. She was mortified and refunded more than 90% of the cost of the order. It was so unnecessary! I would hate for the site to become full of hoops for the people and artists trying to sell their works.
I think most people have wonderful experiences on Etsy. When it works, it’s great! I love the attractive website, fun shopping tools, creative sellers, varying price points, you name it. As long as you don’t get into a dispute with a buyer or seller, and as long as you don’t need to personally contact a staff member, you’re fine.
But unfortunately when things go wrong, they go very wrong. That’s been the case on a few issues lately. I’ve seen too many people that I respect receive less than desirable treatment by Etsy staff, so I no longer shop there.
I too wish things could go back to the way they were 1+ year go. If things ever turn around, I’ll be back in a heartbeat!
gnomey, it is true. These are real sellers, posting their very real stories. Not only about being brick walled but about being muted with really no reason. Im sorry that you’ve not followed along in the UEN or in the forums enough to know that this does happen.
As a seller on Etsy, I can tell you that these reports are all too true. Any attempts to talk about it in their forums among other sellers are closed by administration due to “privacy concerns.” Even the thread started about this exact article has had two administrators threaten to close it for “misinformation” but the correct information is not provided.
The first rule about Etsy club is that you do not talk about Etsy club.
Please tell me etsy isn’t going to turn into ebay. I listed a few art items on etsy assuming it was more focused on the art and less fraught with frustrating scammy buyers and weird arbitrary practices.
So now it is a total roll of the dice if you get an impatient or tweaky buyer like the one who freaked when something was shipped to Australia. Then you might be defending yourself against the FBI?
@consumersaur: Funny you mention that. There is quite a bit of uneasiness around Etsy shop owners due to the recent ebay fallout. A lot of ebay power sellers are moving to Etsy, unfortunately, they may be bringing some crummy buyers with them as well.
Feedback from one of the stores closed without any notification:
cached on Feb 19, 2008
Positive: 13,959
Neutral: 29
Negative: 3
They were the 3rd top seller last month.
Although they received an email about their shop being closed, they never received any emails prior to that, warning of violation of rules, or potential shop closure. How is it possible to get the “hammer” but never the other emails Etsy says it sent?
This is part of the process Etsy claims to follow:
“*Please note that an account suspension only happens when we have not heard from the person in an 80 day period. There are many out-going emails to prevent suspension from happening. Sometimes if a person doesn’t check emails, suspension can happen, but we can fix that right away!”
[www.etsy.com]
This is a seller with thousands of positive transactions, involving emails and Etsy convos every day. But somehow, official critical Etsy emails didn’t get through?
Preposterous.
Here’s a marvelous example of Etsy first taking offense at someone’s comment, and eventually moving to accusing them of being a sockpuppet of some kind. The behaviour is simply bizarre. Etsy has so much going for it, in theory. The vision is marvelous. But the execution… so unprofessional, it’s boggling.
[quote below]
[etsynews.com]
Here are the emails Kelly received from Etsy. I’m not worried about being shut down since I am not active on Etsy anymore and Kelly isn’t too concerned about being shut down at this point, so she gave me permission to share them.
Here was her repsonse after she received her first email about being muted:
While I completely understand your rules of not harrassing or personal attacks on members and admin, I’m not sure how I attacked anyone.
My comment was about Daniellexo’s explanation of site policy. It’s laughable at best because it makes no sense at all. Your sellers want site policies clearly stated so they are not unfairly banned, muted, or brick walled. Do you really want this new admin running around the forum saying things like, ” Well we don’t really have a set policy so just do what you think is best until we decide if it is wrong or not” .
If you don’t read the UEN, check it out to see just how many people are uncomfortable with this new forum admin. It’s quite clear from the forums that people are not happy with this new change.
Etsy’s response:
This is not up for discussion
Her response to that:
My concern is that, if people do not know exactly what they need to do in order to follow the rules and if admin are not on the same page when it comes to site policy, there are going to be sellers afraid of making one mistep and finding their store closed or their shop muted. How can sellers know what to do if site policies are not clearly stated?
It’s a legitimate question and one that sellers have been asking for many months now.
26 February 2008 11:15am EDT
Etsy’s response:
This last convo is a perfect example of how you should bring up your constructive criticism of Etsy in the forums.
Thank you for your feedback in a respectful tone.
It is the communities job to explain the policy as they are in place now – there is no need to attack them when they are trying to make the policies as they are as clear to those interested.
We are always interested in what is concerning our members. The community goes to great lengths to document the ideas, criticisms, issues that are brought up in the forums.
Here is our official policy on this matter:
Etsy reserves the right to modify or terminate the Etsy service for any reason, without notice at any time.
Which can be found in the TOU.
26 February 2008 11:24am EDT
Her response:
Well just to make things clear, I am still unsure as to how I attacked this admin. If you go back and read exactly what I wrote in the thread you mentioned, you can see that my comment was not about Daniel but about her odd analogy. She seems to make these type of comments often that make sellers more confused about site policy. People wanted answers in that thread that would clearly state site policy and all they got from her was as I stated ” a bungled courtroom analogy”. It made no sense to the questions people were asking. People STILL do not know what the right thing to do is.
I guess I just think this particular admin either needs to be clued in on correct site policy or you need to bring someone like Stella back who was professional in her manner and the way she responded to people in the forums. If she didn’t know and answer to something, she certainly wouldn’t just spout anything to bide her time.
Daniellexo has made a plethora of rude, flippant and condecending remarks to many forum members and locks threads willy nilly. People are now saving them by making screenshots to prove that this admin is breaking the Etsy etiquette rule, not only in the forums, but through convos and emails.
26 February 2008 11:35am EDT
Etsy’s response:
In addition, I’ve just looked at your account. You have no sales, no purchases. I’m wondering why you are here and so interested in our policies? Do you have other accounts you are not disclosing? If there is another reason I’m open to discuss it. If not its possible that this account can be considered a “sock puppet” and in that case we will have to delete it. I of course wanted to bring this to your attention first.
26 February 2008 11:36am EDT
She replied them telling them she was not a sock puppet, but a buyer and they have not respsonded.
Reader “Elizabeth” could be one of several people who were banned from using the Etsy forums. Sure there have been mistakes made along the way. Sure some situations could have been handled better, but I could apply that to any successful, young, up and coming business. The vast majority of sellers and buyers there are happy with Etsy, the proof is in the numbers. To make it sound like shops being closed for no reason is rampant and malicious is misleading at best. Those who are saying they are in fear of it happening to them may as well be in fear of being hit by lightning too.
Yikes. I was thinking of opening a shop, turning my painting hobby into something I could make some money from. Maybe not now then.
Open your own website, or sell on craigslist.
Sellers have no legal rights on online auction or sales sites.
Paypal is a bank that does not have to follow government rules. eBay is a tax fraud whorehouse. etsy sounds like ebay’s granola-eating sister, who smoked a little too much ganja, got paranoid, and grabbed a ton of FBI forms.
In this case, as a seller myself with over 160+ sales, I think the members of Etsy are fine and Etsy itself is clueless and corrupt.
I’ve actually NOT spoken out about my increasing frustrations on my OWN personal blog, one is not related to crafting, for fear of being “brick walled” because of it. No other site I pay money to has ever given me the sheer animosity I see doled out from those in charge. Esty at time seems to act vindictively (I’m using a pseudonym btw for the same reason) against those who seem to care the most about it.
I’ve gotten confirmation of a seller blacklist, the one that Etsy said didn’t exist. I’m betting on I’m on it at least now as I was even muted today for participating in a critical thread last night.
What I said wasn’t even all that bad. I have a recently established a store on Dawanda as well just so if Etsy shuts me down I’ll have a place to sell. And if they do, I’ll be happy to tell everyone around that they are to be avoided. I’ve brought them some decent money and many new sellers. I will stop promoting them, they don’t like their own members and the buyers are almost red headed step children despite making Etsy the money to begin with.
Our biggest gripe on this issue is that they refuse to give any in writing policy for anything, because they could be used against them later, or require them to act in a set manner they may not want to subscribe to. It makes me think one of the main cats in charge has lawyers for parents who told them never put it in writing so you can’t be called on it.
Etsy just got an investment of 27MIL. I hope the investor sees this will come demanding answers, requiring them grow up and act like entrepreneurial adults and stop running Etsy like a hippy commune with fascist tendencies.
I’m honestly expecting a lawsuit soon from some of these ousted sellers. And rightly so, Etsy deserves to be sued for these reckless bad calls unless they can reign it in and act like a business serving customers instead of their own egos.
It’s a shame to see a handful of negative incidents soil Etsy’s good name. I’ve been a seller on Etsy for the better part of a year and have never had any problems. This is certainy the first I’ve heard of any FBI involvement! I’m sure the issues they’re having can be attributed to growing pains and will be worked out very soon. After all, Etsy is still a very young company. And there aren’t too many problems that $27 mil can’t cure!
update on that seller with 15,000 positive feedback (100% positive) who was suspended over one “non-delivery”, it turns out the buyer had not even paid for the item. The buyer had trouble with the payment process, contacted Etsy for help, and Etsy’s response was to close the seller’s account. They did not reopen it for 3 days and did not apologize to the seller.
Another seller with 100% positive feedback had their store suspended when they filed a dispute for non-delivery, they were the buyer in the transaction. Etsy got the two parties mixed up and accidentally suspended the buyer. They reopened her store but have muted her from the Etsy forums so she cannot promote her store, and have not apologized.
These “mistakes” happen more often than Etsy will admit, the sellers reputations are irreparably damaged and Etsy never apologizes to the wrongly suspended users or makes restitution for lost sales. To rub salt in the wounds, Etsy makes public statements implying that the sellers who do tell their experiences (outside of Etsy) are lying.
This goes beyond mere unprofessionalism, this verges on malicious defamation.
If you do decide to sell via Etsy, I strongly suggest that you register your own domain name, and have it set to forward to your Etsy shop. Publicize your own domain name, not Etsy’s. That way if Etsy yanks your store out from under you, at least you don’t lose everything — you can start again and it will be easier for your customers to find you.
Unfortunately the ‘community’ at Etsy is living in fear. Intelligent discussion is being stifled (and has been so in the past) by random, deeply personal and reactive acts of muting and banning.
Sellers wanting to air discussion or criticism of Etsy are forced off site, and what’s more, this offsite discussion is frequently done anonymously to avoid repercussions. This latter is not the paranoid act of a bunch of professional whingebags – the founder of Etsy has gone as far as to state publicly that offsite activity is used in judging an individual’s suitability for inclusion in the Etsy community (listen to Etsy’s Policy section here [www.etsy.com] )!
This chilling revelation heralded a new chapter in the community by those who chose to listen critically. Etsy’s claim of wanting to assist artists live from their handcrafting is ringing hollow these days, and sadly has been an empty promise for almost a year now.
i really like etsy. i hope no more issues show up like this. the one thing about that fbi cyber crime thing is that it can reverse. if they find the customer committed fraud, it will bite her in return.
Smokeyjoe has the right advice for potential and existing sellers re: register your own domain and use it in your promotional business materials – you will feel a lot less vulnerable on Etsy that way.
They banned me… because I owed them a dollar. Well, $1.08, technically. Can’t argue though–I *did* owe them a dollar.
Etsy talks about the problem here:
[www.etsy.com]
That’s a good idea about having a domain that just points at an etsy store. I wouldn’t want to just sell on my site because I’ve started selling more stuff to people who just found me on etsy, instead of people I send to etsy.
All of this is true. I’ve been purchasing and watching Etsy for quite some time and the lack of professionalism exhibited by their staff is appalling at best. Sadly regardless of the problems people have with Ebay at least with Ebay they have spelled out policies that they adhere to and don’t just run rampant posting on forums and gluing items to fanny packs.
Ironically it’s always great sellers that are “brickwalled” unexpectedly and not given any apology for the mistake on Etsy’s part while the real scam artists are still in business. I along with approx. 20 other buyers contacted Etsy for non delivery of items. It took Etsy 7 weeks, yes you read that right seven, weeks to even respond to my report. Guess what? That seller is still there ripping off others.
The only thing I can hope for as the original idea behind Etsy was great, is that with this 27 million dollar investment the investors will become aware of the current situation and make some badly needed and necessary changes. I would like to see a massive lay off and some qualified staff hired on to fix the on going site problems. As it stands right now people continually make false purchases taking items out of sellers stores with accounts created that have addresses of ahs;’gfagfg. It’s sad really that they instead waste their time at the so called “Etsy Lab’s” creating fugly baby clothes and fanny packs when there are real problems with the functionality, UI and security of the site. Nothing is confidential at Etsy, so as they say buyer beware.
Sorry for the rant but I do hold on to the dream that Etsy will be bought out by real professionals who will hire on qualified staff and stop worrying about making bumper stickers.
Oh yes, let me not forget I was also told by Etsy after filing a non delivery report that I could contact the FBI. The FBI? You seriously must be kidding me? I can only imagine my email to Mr. FBI Investigator…
Dear FBI,
I did not receive my 20 dollar mass produced made in China item that I purchased on Etsy. Please help me as Etsy said to contact you, can you get my 20 back from this Nigerian scam artist?
Thanks Etsy, I can sleep well tonight knowing that the FBI is so diligently working on the things that really matter.
I too am a seller on Etsy, and the atmosphere has been very tense lately. I have recently bought my own domain (which now just forwards to my etsy shop) and am dusting off my php skills to make my own online store. The admins use language (“Hey you! YES YOU!” as the first line of a recent announcement) and then mock you as old and outdated if you don’t find the rudeness amusing.
Very darn scary, a lot of the etsy support people need to get laid more often and stop exercising dictadorship with tea seeping ladies.
You’ll think their youth and wit would save their asses but I guess not!
Funny, the one person who never sent me anything or even responded to emails took forever to get cancelled. And Etsy never bothered trying to get the buyer to refund me or anything. That took another headache with Paypal, who refunded me only out of sympathy for my issue, not because I was financially protected or anything. Hope they can find a balance between buyer-protection and open market.
I’m very familiar with the issues of Etsy, being a seller there myself. Etsy really is one of those “what you make it” places, and is unfairly held up against the Ebay standard and mindset – people basically want it to replace Ebay when it does no such thing.
That said, the staff is very young, and are reinventing the wheel and coming to every situation as though they are the first people ever to experience it. I had the pleasure of meeting some of the staff in person earlier this year – their overeager to buck what they see as “traditionalism” and are making a lot of mistakes right now. One of their big mistakes is the inability to recognize that it is entirely possible to be transparent as a company while protecting your clients’ privacy, and they lack a single clear voice for communication.
You can see how Etsy is handling this post here:
[www.etsy.com]
As you can see, that despite being an aggressively visual medium, they aren’t really connecting how their image affects people on an emotional level, as you will see from looking at the admin icons.
Etsy staff needs to get laid more often and stop playing dictator with teas seeping ladies. You’ll think they are hip and witty , instead they are unprofessional and ignorant of issues. They are creating an atmosphere of discomfort about etsy itself, someone else can use their idea and run with it somewhere else, and they are watching to see how baDLY THIS CAKE IS GETTING COOKED.