The Wall Street Journal has an interesting article about retailers who hire law firms to engage in something called “civil recovery,” in which alleged shoplifters are harassed into paying thousands of dollars… even if the case against them has been dropped, or the retailer never intended to sue at all.
From the WSJ:
After Miami handyman Glenn Rudge was accused of shoplifting an $8 set of drill bits at Home Depot, he thought he’d settled the matter when he showed his receipt to prosecutors and they dropped the charge.
But a few weeks later, a law firm hired by Home Depot began sending him letters demanding first $3,000, then a total of $6,000, implying he’d be sued if he didn’t pay it.
In an escalating battle against theft, retailers are going after anyone suspected of shoplifting, turning over their names to lawyers and collection firms, who pursue the suspects for stiff penalties and split the take with the retailer.”
The WSJ says this process is a result of laws passed in all 50 states that were intended to help retailers cover the cost of securing their stores, but the way the laws were written has resulted in some strange behavior by retailers.
Lord & Taylor, for instance, never follows up civil-demand letters by suing suspected shoplifters, its loss-prevention manager said in deposition about a year ago, citing the cost of going to court. Lord & Taylor collected about $1 million in civil recovery from suspected shoplifters in a recent year, up from $850,000 the year before, the official testified.
The chain’s letters to suspected shoplifters are sent out by a Florida law firm called Palmer Reifler & Associates, which also handles the task for four dozen other clients, from Wal-Mart Stores Inc. to Walgreen Co., keeping 13% to 30% of what it collects. A partner at the law firm has said that it sends out about 1.2 million civil-recovery demand letters a year but follows up by suing fewer than 10 times a year.
Creepy. In the Home Depot case, the handyman purchased the drill bits on a previous trip to the store, and had them peeking out of his shirt pocket. A security guard spotted them and pulled him aside.
After he kept insisting he was innocent, the guard handcuffed him, walked him to an interrogation room in back and took the drill bits. Mr. Rudge asked to call home to have his wife bring in the receipt but the store wouldn’t let him, he said in a 2003 suit in Miami-Dade County Circuit Court, since settled. Home Depot declined to discuss specifics of his account.Prosecutors charged the handyman with shoplifting, then dropped the charge in February 2003 when he showed them a receipt for the drill bits. But about a month later, according to his suit, he got a letter from the Palmer Reifler law firm demanding he pay a little over $3,000 within 20 days.
He ignored the demand. Then he got a letter demanding an additional $3,000, as “pre-litigation” attorney’s fees, for a total of just over $6,000. If he didn’t pay, one letter said, the sheriff’s office would be called to notify him if a lawsuit was filed.
Mr. Rudge was doing some handyman work for a lawyer and showed her the letters. “I took one look and said, ‘This is outrageous,’ ” says the lawyer, Alison Harke. “These letters are designed to make people settle because they believe they are going to jail.” She filed a suit against the retailer, the settlement of which is confidential.
We hope Barnes & Noble and Borders don’t do this. We’re always walking around with a book in our bag and when we find ourselves in book stores we start getting paranoid that the booksellers may have x-ray vision and a cynical outlook.
Big Retail Chains Dun Mere Suspects in Theft [Wall Street Journal](Thanks, Joseph !)
(Photo:Maulleigh)
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whatever the amount was he settled for was not enough. he should have taken this all the way and made headlines with it. although WSJ is pretty big, it’s the consumers who wouldn’t normally read something like that who need to know about these cons.
This just seems like the next step in the continued decline of common sense. I resent like hell the way Walmart treats everyone like shoplifters. I’ve been stopped and asked to show my receipt to the grumpy old man at the door because I had a 12-pack of toilet paper that wasn’t in a bag as I was leaving. The absurd thing was, this was sitting on top of $120 of bagged groceries.
Who the hell steals buys $120 in groceries, but steals $5 in toilet paper.
When I do relent and show my receipt, I generally follow it up by turning to my wife or kids and say: “Wow, that was close, I thought for sure he’d notice the 52 inch LCD TV I have stashed in my pocket.
Where has common sense gone?
Shoplifting is huge. I work retail in the middle of whitest Dumbf**kistan and the store manger once told me the shrinkage. I was stunned. No roaming ‘lifter gangs here, just local hillbillies with no money and bored teener girls swiping jewelry for kicks. It’s still significant.
Oh, don’t pull a gun on a rent-a-cop in a store. Many are off-duty and most have very close relations with the local gendarmes. You could find yourself preaching the 2nd Amendment to a judge.
WalMart does not treat all customers as shoplifters. There is just far less opportunity to steal.
I’m glad I stopped shopping at Home Depot. Should I boycott Walmart now as well?
@CaptainCynic: You’ll know the last tattered shreds of common sense are really gone when they call security because you said you had a 52-inch LCD in your pocket…
GearHead: Believe me, I’ve wondered about that. Lucky for me the receipt nazis tend to be seniors and their hearing isn’t that great.
One time I actually got pretty pissy about it with one of them and said I wasn’t going to dig my reciept out of my wallet for him and he could call a manager or security if he wanted. He recognizes me and doesn’t bother asking anymore.
Guess I passed that intimidate check.
@TheUncleBob:
If you “know” that they are shoplifting, it should be a simple matter to get enough evidence to meet the reasonable suspicion standard just by staying near them and keeping an eye on them. Even if you don’t witness anything, you’ll likely cause them to go steal somewhere else where they’re not constantly being pestered by the “helpful” employees.
And if you really do have a legitimate reason to believe they’re stealing, but not enough evidence to do anything about it, you CAN and SHOULD do exactly that. Unless your “suspicions” really have more to do with bigoted personal prejudices than actual facts. That would certainly lead to trouble for you in the long run
Like I was saying – trouble for you in the long run
@CaptainCynic:
If you resent the hell out of it, why do you show it to them? They only continue to do it because people allow it. People like you.
Indeed
Stores in Florida have been doing this for years. Do you know why? Because senior citizens are some of the most habitual shoplifters out there!
The thing about senior shoplifters is that they will mortgage their house to come up with the cash rather then risk their neighbors finding out they were arrested.
I had a friend who worked for Eckerd drugstores who told me they caught senior shoplifters almost every week and typically shook them down for $1500.00 to $3000.00 (the value of the item stolen had little to do with the ransom). They had to come up with the money on the spot, had to sign a statement saying they would never enter another Eckerd and they were photographed.
I’m not so sure this is such a bad policy. I bet it “cured” a lot of lifetime shoplifters. Anyone who is innocent still has the option to have his day in court.
I guess I should have read the whole thread before replying. Good for you for finally standing up for your rights. Sadly, there are far too many people who will continue to meekly submit to the door-checkers “authority” no matter how annoyed they may get.
@TinyBug: “If you “know” that they are shoplifting, it should be a simple matter to get enough evidence to meet the reasonable suspicion standard just by staying near them and keeping an eye on them.”
So, your answer is to spend the entire time following around one customer that you *know* is shoplifting instead of stocking the shelves or taking care of other, paying customers?
That doesn’t sound at all like good business. And could be harassment.
>”And if you really do have a legitimate reason to believe they’re stealing, but not enough evidence to do anything about it, you CAN and SHOULD do exactly that.”
Except, again, you risk one of those Civil Rights lawsuits – regardless if the individual’s status had anything to do with the decision.
We went to Home Depot this weekend to use some Xmas giftcards and encountered the poor ‘security’ guard that make you show a receipt on your way out the door.
We were paying in the garden area so it’s just 3 steps to the exit where the security guard asked for our receipt. (This location has never had a security guard posted here, I assumed because of the closeness of the exit to the cashiers.) I was slowly moving the big flat full of stuff as my partner scrambled for the receipt he’d already tucked in his wallet. Offhandedly, I said, “Don’t stress about it – legally they have no right to ask for that anyway.” The security guy replied, “Well, we can’t guarantee what will happen if you don’t show it to us when we ask nicely.”
I looked at him with the biggest screwed up face I could muster and walked past.
At Home Depot, I’ve encountered cursing employees, crying employees, and resentful employees. But until this last weekend, I’ve never had a thinly-veiled threat lobbed at me.
The good outcome of this story is that we’ve finally asked family members to not give us Home Depot gift cards any more. Using them is the only reason we’ve stepped in our local Home Depot (located less than 2 miles from our house) for the past few years.
Funny, I always use the receipt as a bookmark
@William Mize:
Do you only buy one book at a time?
A merchant has no more rights that a policemen, actually less. There must be a reasonable grounds that a crime has been committed. Exactly what that means varies from state to state, but generally that means that there must be a witness who saw the person take the item and hide it, or use some other form of fraudulent process — such as slapping a paid sticker on unpaid merchandise.
Detaining a person is a serious issue. It involves the actual or implied use of force. The use of force against an individual requires a legal cause, otherwise it is a crime. In most states an illegal detention is a more serious crime than simple shoplifting of less than $500 or $1000, never mind the civil liability.
Most stores attempt to deal with shoplifting by intimidation rather than outright intervention unless the issue is flagrant. Most stores do not want to hire a real trained security force because that might cost money, so they get untrained minimum wage individuals who wear uniforms, but who have no idea what their legal and ethical boundaries are. They can be dangerous. In response to a woman who said she wouldn’t accept be taken into the back of a store — I am male and I wouldn’t either. I would sit down and start screaming that I was being kidnapped, and yell for the police.
I am sympathetic towards shoplifting issues, but that doesn’t mean that merchants can trample my rights to the integrity of my person.
I’m a bail bondsman. I probably get out about 200 shoplifters a year. The vast , overwhelming majority of them are arrested at Walmart. When they get these letters (and they all do) some throw them away and forget about them , some shit their pants and pay. (Usually the ones that pay are the teenage kids arrested stealing something because they are bored or whetever – their parents cough up the money)Anyway, I have never had one defendant actually sued by these guys. Maybe it happened after I was out of the picture , but I haven’t seen it.Anyway, some important things to remember if you are the subject of one of these letters:
1) They have to sue you in your home county. Period. A lawsuit filed 3000 miles away is worthless and they know it. This alone takes away their incentive to traipse over to the courthouse where you live and file suit.
2) They can not put you in jail. Jail is for criminal acts ,not civil disputes.
3) It’s a numbers game. If your boho teenager stole a $27 video game,they are not going to spend the $50-$75 to file a suit and pay an attorney to pursue it because its’ not worth it.They send out lots of letters and get back some responses and that is pretty much pure gravy.
BTW – If you are stopped in a store and detained, you get the free ride to jail (and possibly see me).If they stop you,the decision has been made. Store security people will try this to get a confession :
“If you will just admit that you stole/tried to steal that video game,we’re going to let you go”
No they are not. If you admit anything, it will be used against you.Not telling anyone how to beat the system here,but your rights should not be given up easily.
@blondegrlz: at target they have to see you take the item. also the normal security guards you see called TPS cannot stop you from leaving the store, nor can they touch you in anyway.
Only the APE (Assets Protection Executive) can stop you, that person is in charge of all security but they dont work 24/7 so unless the guy who stops you is the AP then just keep walking…
I bet the PR department will spin this into one of those “We’re recovering money from potential shoplifters in order to save you money” Wouldn’t it be easier to freely admit the stores don’t trust their customers?
Good-bye Home Depot.
I have to draw the line somewhere, and this is where I draw it. Your bad behavior just lost you a customer.
I routinely travel through hardware stores with the contents of previous purchases (off-hand, I can think of times where I brought screws, nails, drill bits, light bulbs, and small pieces of wood with me.). I won’t do business with somebody so stupid as to not only arrest such a person for a non-offense (stupid, but possibly the fault of a single individual), but to follow that arrest with corporate harassment, even after they were definitively proven innocent.
Home Depot, you’re dead to me now.
And didn’t Home Depot FIRE its own employees for detaining a shoplifter in the recent past? Apparently, they enjoy more monetary benefits this way.
walmart busted me the same way for having a pen in my pocket…i was in 8th grade with 3 other friends eating at the mcdonalds inside, with skateboards….set them off…150 to settle my parents seemed to think it was easier that way…..i work at borders as a side note and we dont do anything about shoplifting usually as the liability would cost too much. also, we take all the old comic books, old candy, old cds, old mass market romance sci fi and mystery and tear them up and throw them away ever one in a while…they never even let us eat the food from the cafe they throw away….i dunno seems like theyre pretty pointless rules at these places
@CaptainCynic: Your kids hate you.
@TheUncleBob:
Good customer service is a powerful front line defense against shoplifters. Following a customer around, offering assistance, asking if they need help, offering suggestions is not harrassment. If they are trying to shoplift, it will discourage them, and will likely make them leave. This is not some magical thinking I just made up, this is a well accepted and widely used loss prevention technique.
Also, if you’re so damned sure they’re stealing, you must have reasons. Even if your reasons don’t rise to the legal level of reasonable suspicion, they’re certainly enough to kick them out of the store. Without some facts to point to, you don’t KNOW anything. If you do have some reasonable facts to back up your decisions, all those threats and fears of a civil rights lawsuit for asking someone to leave the store are severely overblown.
In my experience, the people who “just know” that someone is up to no good without being able to point out any articulable facts to back it up are usually just voicing their own prejudices. And people like that usually deserve those civil rights lawsuits you seem so afraid of.
Sort of off-topic, but… if a store security guard attempts to handcuff me without a police officer present, I guarantee that’s not going to work out the way he envisioned it.
First of all, stores can never stop you unless they have you on camera stealing something and they generally need to wait before you try to leave the store. They may walk up to you and ask if you need help with that item in your pocket, but they can not accuse you until you are leaving and then only if they have you on camera. The one thing I learned from working at Best Buy, and of course to never shop at Best Buy unless it is a last resort.
@fhic: definately
@rhombopteryx: You can be totally in the right as a customer but if they detain you and say “I suspected…” the store is scott free. — Well then, as someone else already said above, I suppose I won’t be being detained. Quite seriously, I might add: Demand all they want, I won’t be following them back to any room. Attempt to physically force me and they’ll be looking down the barrel of a gun. Period.
This is more frivolous than “spilt hot coffee” lawsuits of the past.
I don’t have any empathy for people who are stupid enough to shoplift, but for crying out loud, this is just a petty, vindictive attempt to make money off people, not an attempt to exact justice through legal means.
As for when one is falsely accused, do what I’ve suggested here before: Tell the store to call the police if they want to search you, but that the store employees can’t touch you. They can’t claim you’re being uncooperative, and the cop makes a reliable witness in a harassment suit. If they do touch you without permission, it’s assault.
Another thing about receipts at store exits…in bookstores in some Asian countries, the store employees “mark” the edge of the book with a stamp (along the side of the pages). If you won’t let them deface your purchases, they won’t let you take the books. They’d rather give back your money than let books go unmarked, one of the stupidest policies I’ve ever seen. (I don’t know about anyone else, but I keep my books for years, sometimes decades, and keep them in pristine condition.)
Their “argument” is that, “The stamp is a proof of purchase”. So is a receipt.
Try being black and shopping in Oakland,CA. You can’t bring a backpack or a purse in to most stores. If you go into a small store you will be watched at all times. Its crazy, you’re treated as a criminal in so many cases before you ever set foot into a store.
From the story, here is what it looks like happened.
1. The personnel stopped the person with insufficient proof.
2. Personnel called the police and had the person arrested.
3. Personnel entered the case into a computer and checked the civil demand box.
At this point, the case is in the system and it does not matter if the prosecuter dropped the case. (A wrongful death civil suit does not need a murder conviction)
Ideally someone should be able to remove the info, but these usually get outsourced and a paperwork bungle would keep the demand out there.
Now, there is a lot of wrong information in this thread.
1. A person cannot be stopped if it is not on camera.
2. There is nothing wrong with putting merch in pockets while shopping.
3. If you are stopped for shoplifting, you will go to jail without eception.
Corrections:
1. That would be the stores policy, not law. Many stores go by personal observation, not camera footage.
2. Most states have concealment laws. Most stores will not stop for this, but could. This is largely a response to the “I swear I was going to pay for it, I just forgot” that most shoplifters try.
3. Depending on the store, the Loss Prevention person may have leeway to let you go. If you go to trial, the store has to pay for the LP and witnesses to go to testify so if you are nice and cooperate, they can make the decision to let you off easy.
Also, one of the largest ways employees cause loss to a store is underringing friends and family. Even though the security guard was in sight of the register does not mean the cashier charged you for the items.
In truth stores have to recoop all losses due to theft. If not through civil demands, they will increase prices.
@GearheadGeek:
That’s my point – you can’t bring a successful case (civil or criminal) because the state has a law making them exempt from suit. Sure, you can file a lawsuit, but the judge will point to the law and say “you loose.”
Unless they don’t follow the particulars of the law (don’t notify police, don’t have a reasonable suspicion, etc.) the deck is stacked for them.
@TheUncleBob: That’s a nice sentiment when you’re a white male that doesn’t get hassled when you go shopping.
If some guy tried to hang cuff me in home depot I’d laugh in his face and ask to see his badge. Once I left a Sears and a security guard came up to us in the parking lot and started talking to my friend. I was putting things in my trunk and he told me to stop and to not go anywhere and then told my friend he had to put cuffs on him for “his protection”. He wouldn’t tell him what it was for either. My friend was going to let him, I was like “ummmm hell no you aren’t. He has no right to put cuffs on you unless you let him”. I took out my cell phone and acted like I called the cops. I was having a fake conversation with the weather number. Told my friend to get in the car. He did, I got in also. Security guy stood behind the car like he was going to stop us from driving off. I asked my friend to tell me straight up if he stole anything. I told him to tell me the truth because I was going to call the cops because some ass hat was trying to illegally detain me. He said no so I did call the cops. They were there in 5 minutes.
It was over something stupid. We bought some DVDs at FYE and my friend put them in his hoodie pocket. He then went into the dressing room and came out with a bag of DVDs which they didn’t see him go in with. So the guy thought we were stealing dvds or games. The cop laughed when I said I was being unlawfully detained and did nothing of course. The SOB even gave our IDs to the Security guard who should had no right to see them unless we did something. I’m still POd about that because he wrote our information down.
We both got 20 or 25 dollar gift cards for it after I asked to speak to the store manager. This was in Owensboro KY.
@Buran: Wrong. Some states have conceal=theft clauses in their shoplifting statures. Not all states require you to leave the store or even the last point of purchase. You’re in Texas right? Check your statutes (MY Google-FU is weak :/)
According to Arizona law 13-1805 subsection B “Any person who knowingly conceals upon himself or another person unpurchased merchandise of a mercantile establishment while within the mercantile establishment shall be presumed to have the necessary culpable mental state pursuant to subsection A of this section.”
@cde: “Unpurchased merchandise” — meaning, not the drill bits since those were his. He would win.
@TinyBug:
You’re right that most of the laws only give immunity to shopkeepers if they have some kind of reasonable suspicion or similar standard, so yes, that’s more precise. But that’s not much of a difference…
The particular level of suspicion the shopkeeper must have is often less that what it takes for a cop to arrest. How wack is that? In a situation where cop couldn’t arrest you, a shopkeeper can take you and drag you, physically, into a back room, handcuff you, and keep you there for some time ’til they call the cops. And you probably couldn’t (sucessfully) sue.
Seems like major violations of FDCPA as it sounds like a debt collection attempt which have strict laws.
Whole Foods (at least the one where I used to work) used a similar “civil recovery” system. Thanks, Consumerist! Now I know what it’s called.
@Buran: I was talking about you saying
“I’ve temporarily put things in my pocket while shopping before but always removed them and paid for them — I just do it if my hands are full or something. Never been hassled, ever. It’s not illegal to do that. Just illegal to leave without paying.”
It is. Someplaces.
@rhombopteryx: They can detain, but they can’t force you back into some room. They have to leave you right where you are unless you are a danger to someone, or you consent.
I used to deal with PRA on behalf of my clients all the time. What a nasty little business they run.
Man, that brings back a bad memory from childhood. I was stopped after school in an Eckard Drugstore in the 80′s. The manager said he saw me put ‘something into my bag’ I was standing in the aisle dreaming at some Star Wars Toys. I had nothing in my bag but school books and some very old candy wrappers (gum) He proceeded to tell me that I ‘stole the gum and those wrappers were evidence’. He wanted to call my folks and that was an option that just wasnt happening. I told him to call the cops and let them sort it out. I watched that low-life SOB get a multipack of gum and set it on his desk. He told the cop I had put that in the bag. I asked him how I got gum on the toy aisle and why he had gotten the gum from the aisle HIMSELF to bring over to the cop.
The officer was someone I wont forget. He took me outside and told me not to go in the store again as the manager is not quite right with the world. He said if he had said I stole a toy it would be believable but the gum wrappers were dusty and had been in there for a while. He shooed me off and then went back in. I dont know what happened but I DO know I have never bought anything from an Eckard Drugstore.
That was in Fayetteville NC.
as usual, Buran is making stuff up as he goes along.
in many states, the mere act of “concealment” is a misdemeanor, a backup charge where the intent to shoplift can’t be proven.
as for the article itself, it’s a two-way street. I have gotten large recoveries against one of the companies mentioned for false arrest. of course I am subject to a confidentiality clause, but I’ve personally gotten companies to cut big checks because of their mistakes.
“civil compromises” as they’re called are common in California. if I was charged with a crime, I would pay the $5,000 to keep it off my record without batting an eyelash.
@MPHinPgh:
I thought retailers couldn’t do anything if they didn’t actually see you steal anything.
The guy from the story should sue Home Depot. It is incumbent on the store to PROVE he shoplifter, which means actually seeing him put the stuff into his pocket. Not only are they guilty of harassment, but of false imprisonment as well.
@Primate: They can’t.
@TinyBug:>”Good customer service is a powerful front line defense against shoplifters.”
I don’t disagree. At all. However, it doesn’t change the fact that employees shouldn’t *have* to stalk customers because they *know* they’re shoplifting. One employee watching a shoplifter is one less employee that’s there to take care of the customers. Period.
>”Also, if you’re so damned sure they’re stealing, you must have reasons. Even if your reasons don’t rise to the legal level of reasonable suspicion, they’re certainly enough to kick them out of the store. Without some facts to point to, you don’t KNOW anything.”
Disagree. I work in retail. I *know* for a fact that there are certain people who come in on a regular basis that will steal the moment we’re distracted. In fact, they often come in groups and will create distractions. And, as others have pointed out, in order to make a stop, many stores require that the employee has to have constant, non-stop line of sight view of the shoplifter in order to make a stop. Which goes back to what I was talking about earlier – if a customer sticks a CD in their pants and I see them, then someone (which may or may not be the person’s friend) asks me to help them in another aisle, then either I have to decline to take care of the second customer, lose contact with the shoplifter, or risk the shoplifter dropping the CD while I’m distracted and making a bad stop. Instead, I should be allowed to just ask the first customer to leave and never come back.
>”all those threats and fears of a civil rights lawsuit for asking someone to leave the store are severely overblown.”
Really? Did you read the Forever21 thread where people were crying that the store violated her rights and discriminated against her, blah, blah, blah… No lawsuit in this case, but this stuff happens and it’s real.
>”And people like that usually deserve those civil rights lawsuits you seem so afraid of.”
No one deserves a lawsuit for protecting their private property by telling someone to leave. I’m sorry, but I just won’t agree with this.
I see the retail stores are learning from the RIAA’s lawyers! Send someone a threatening letter & demand $$$.
@DeeJayQueue:
I am exactly the same way. I am a single person who knows exactly what he wants, attempts to go to a store to find that one item & typically will not find what I am looking for. SO I end up leaving without buying anything. Stores block all the exit lanes/empty checkout lanes so you have to basically find the one single way to get out. Kmart used to be really bad about this (I no longet go to kmart). I have even had to attmpt to slip thru a checkoutlane that was full of people waiting to pay for goods.
And if I bring anything in to the store … I always make sure to contact someone right away to inform them that I was bringing this item in to use to get a part for (like bringing in a bolt to get a nut, or bringing in a tape measure to measure something before I buy it). That way I have a witness that says I came up to them to inform them what I was doing. Only problem with this is when the store has seperate entances & exits & no door greeters or employees near the entrance. Half the time you cant even find one on the salesfloor.
And btw… no security guard is going to touch me! I will demand they call the cops if they think I shoplifted & let the cops handle it all. But I am not going anywhere with a security guard who may just grab an item off the shelf (just in case) & say I attempted to steal it to keep him from falsely accusing someone of stealing. I’d wait at the door’s entrance & wait for the cops there…. not in the back.
I remember a story told by bobcat goldthwaite on a late night talkshow of an incident he had with a security guard. Bobcat was waiting in line to pay for something & the woman security guard saw the imprint of what looked like a packet of mentos or rolaids in bob’s pocket. SHe stopped him & accused him of shoplifting. She wouldnt let him leave & she threatened to call the police… he said “call them”…. police came & bobcat emptied his pockets & the suspicious imprint turned out to be a marker (like a highliter pen) in his pocket…. the police made the security guard apologise to bobcat.
Most security guards have no idea what they are allowed to do & what they are not. Security guards have no more power than an average citizen. “Citizen’s arrest” power is all they have. I know…. because I worked as one for years long ago. I would always err on the side of caution.
@cde: Not when you’re actually concealing it. I let it stick out of my pocket such that it’s obvious that I’m not trying to hide it.