We received the following strangely awesome, if a bit strange, letter from a consumer who was not allowed to purchase something at the Apple store because he would not show ID. It was sent to Steve Jobs and William Rhodes (of Citibank.) Let’s listen in:
Mr Jobs, and Mr Rhodes,
The Merchant, Apple Inc., at Stonestown Galleria Required California ID as a condition to accepting my Credit Card as payment.
From previous experiences, I have learned that many occasions have occurred where the consumer’s identity becomes compromised because merchant’s ask for ID and the unknowing consumer gives his ID, which includes his home address and DL#. That is why Merchant’s such as VISA/MC have policies that protect consumer’s rights. If your Credit Card is signed it is valid, and the Merchant must not require customer’s to provide ID as a condition of purchase. My Concern is my personal security and other’s that shop at Apple Store.
Cardholder ID
Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID . Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures. Laws in several states also make it illegal for merchants to write a cardholder’s personal information, such as an address or phone number, on a sales receipt. P. 29, Visa Merchant Card Acceptance PolicyI gave the merchant at 3251 20th Avenue, Space 235, San Francisco, Ca, 94132 both my Citibank Visa and Citibank Mastercard and the merchant refused to accept them both as payment because I refused to provide them with my Driver’s License. Also from previous experience I know that they record your DL# for every Credit Card transaction. Why does Starbucks and other retailers train their employee’s not to ask for ID and Apple Inc has entire stores who don’t know what a merchant policy is?
The reason that I provided both my Mastercard and VISA is because they both have similar policies, and Mastercard even has a webpage to submit policy obstructions to.
I entered the store and proceeded to an employee to make my purchase, the employee asks for ID and because I was in a hurry I showed him my University ID so I could get done with it. In and out. Well he says sorry I need to see California ID, and I responded, “I am sorry you are not getting that, My Mastercard is signed and that is all you need.” He said he couldn’t process my transaction so I gave him my VISA card and he still said no. I asked him for his manager because I was sure that Apple Inc., informs their Sales Manager’s about Merchant policies and laws. Well Paul [redacted] comes back and isn’t any help and tells me that he won’t accept my cards with out proper identification for my security and protection. I tell him I’m doing fine and my cards are signed and verified. He can call the bank if he wants to verify anything. He doesn’t process my transaction and I take his information.
When you buy online, or visit a restaurant.. A big sign for ID verification isn’t showing up anywhere because of merchant agreements. The fact that he didn’t take his time to show me some corporate policy on this and just let me leave unsatisfied after he gave me his business card was very disappointing. Many companies either don’t have written ID Request policies or have written policies that employee’s must not require ID or ask for ID at POS. The fact that I know they record DL#s on the little hand held they have for every credit card transaction made me wonder if everyone else knew they were willingly handing over their personal information. I like to use my Credit Card for all the transactions I do because of the protection I get from Citibank, Sure I had cash but that is beyond my purpose.
I called 1-800-VISA-911 immediately and they forwarded me to my card issuer. After the run around Citibank told me to first to call Visa, that the merchant had the right to refuse my card, and then they finally escalated me because I wanted an explanation as to why they didn’t want my business. Finally a Rep (Roxanne), said she would highlight my agreement in the correct places so I could see that the merchant could reject my cards. Wow, UNBELIEVABLE! Prior experiences with Citibank will leave me waiting for that response indefinitely, especially because I know what the merchant agreement says.
California Civil Code 1747.08 States that the merchant isn’t prohibited from asking for ID by law, which bluntly says CA doesn’t care if they ask/don’t ask for ID, as long as they follow certain guidelines if they do. Unfortunately these merchant’s are in Agreement’s with VISA/MC not to ask for ID. Also this Merchant periodically takes down individuals DL# with every CC transaction at their locations. They broke the merchant policy and were going to break the California civil code for every transaction in the store that is taking place with a credit card.
CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE 1747.08
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (c), no person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation that accepts credit cards for the transaction of business shall do any of the following:(1) Request, or require as a condition to accepting the credit card as payment in full or in part for goods or services, the cardholder to write any personal identification information upon the credit card transaction form or otherwise.
(b ) For purposes of this section “personal identification information,” means information concerning the cardholder, other than information set forth on the credit card, and including, but not limited to, the cardholder’s address and telephone number.
(d) This section does not prohibit any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation from requiring the cardholder, as a condition to accepting the credit card as payment in full or in part for goods or services, to provide reasonable forms of positive identification, which may include a driver’s license or a California state identification card, or where one of these is not available, another form of photo identification, provided that none of the information contained thereon is written or recorded on the credit card transaction form or otherwise. If the cardholder pays for the transaction with a credit card number and does not make the credit card available upon request to verify the number, the cardholder’s driver’s license number or identification card number may be recorded on the credit card transaction form or otherwise.
(e) Any person who violates this section shall be subject to a civil penalty not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250) for the first violation and one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each subsequent violation, to be assessed and collected in a civil action brought by the person paying with a credit card, by the Attorney General, or by the district attorney or city attorney of the county or city in which the violation occurred. However, no civil penalty shall be assessed for a violation of this section if the defendant shows by a preponderance of the evidence that the violation was not intentional and resulted from a bona fide error made notwithstanding the defendant’s maintenance of procedures reasonably adopted to avoid that error. When collected, the civil penalty shall be payable, as appropriate, to the person paying with a credit card who brought the action, or to the general fund of whichever governmental entity brought the action to assess the civil penalty.I would like to bring to the merchant’s, card issuer’s, network managers, and fellow consumer’s attention that rules and regulations to protect the consumer’s are not being executed at the reported Apple Store, and at many merchants across the U.S., and that many bank Customer Service Reps, not limited to Citibank, do not have the correct procedure or knowledge on handle these incidents of privacy. I would like to request that some communication is made with the location mentioned to make sure they don’t ask for ID. I really need to buy something.
Thank you,
Ignacio
This letter sorta makes us happy. Are Apple stores really recording information in violation of California law? Anyone?
MasterCard Merchant Manual (PDF) [Mastercard]
Paying by Credit Card or Check: What Can Merchants Ask? [Privacy Rights Clearinghouse]
(Photo:C.Barr)
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A few years back I went to Walmart and tried to purchase a money order with cash of course. And they asked me for my name, address, and phone number! LOL
I told the girl behind the counter no, and she said it was a new policy.
I countered, “If I come in a buy a bag of cat food and go to the register are you going to asking me my name, address, and phone number?”
Needless to say I never purchased the money order and left. I have never heard of anyone asking for that kind of information before.
As for asking for ID for a cc purchase seeems a bit over the top, I have worked in retail before and we never asked for ID.
Then again we never had a cc company ask us to cut up a cc before either.
@gingerCE: no i wasn’t going to use student discount.
@digitalgimpus: you have it backwards. they have the right to “ASK” for ID per california law… but because they are in agreement with VISA/MASTERCARD they can’t make it a REQUIREMENT of purchase.
To correct some posters.
Checking ID is against MasterCard and Visa policy. Depending on the State it is against the law recorded the Drivers license or ID number. Debit cards that have the Visa or Mastercard symbol and the transactions is ran through as a credit have the same policy. Pin transaction they can do any thing they want. In another forum I read, that apple was keeping the card number to make sure people were not buying more than two phones. Which according to the new PCI rules violates MasterCard and Visa rules. Pci is new security standard, so things like the tj maxx fraud will not happen.
I was in England and one cashier would not want to accept my pass port as an id to use my credit card but wanted me to copy my signature, but I can not write one that would satisfy him since my signature is pretty wild. I told him look at my passport and ID and he relented to it. My friend said I should just give in to it since it might just be there way but he was a jerk about it, I think going through to make up IDs is a bit more trouble than a signature in my case.
Also giving blood one time a person would not take my passport as ID but I needed a driver’s license, state id or a university id. I thought that was weird.
@Bruce Bayliss: Your not the first person that has commented that Apple is storing people’s Credit Card #s. This is against federal law, if only it came to mind. I know they can’t keep your card number in a database since 2006 (was extended from 2003-2006) and they can only display the last four digits of your card number on your receipt.
@B:
Yes, absolutely correct.
The merchant can and should ask for a state issued photo ID to verify customer identity.
Verifying the information is allowed. Recording the information is not.
Considering the Merchant is at fault and financially responsible for any goods purchased with a stolen credit card when the merchant does not ask for photo ID, it is just plain good business practice to ask for a photo ID.
@StevieD: Check your facts before you make conclusions.
Merchants are not at fault or financially responsible if they follow the guidelines set by the credit card companies. This basically amounts to simply making sure the signatures are similar. The credit card company takes the loss when the merchant does everything correctly and if it’s a fraudulent use of the credit card.
@StevieD: wow have you read anything?
@Falconfire: The training for Apple employees in the store is to ask for ID. We, as staff, are not permitted to process credit card. I’m assuming it is possible that some store managers are waving the requirement. However, no information should ever be recorded. We do record information if you use a check, address, name, phone number and driver’s license number.
@SchecterShredder: Right on!
i agree with having to abide by the merchant agreement, but I think the no ID required is backasswards. It would be a nice backup to ensure proper use. However, that LAST thing any bank wants is to slow down or stutter the transfer of money. Just look at all those recent commercials where they make the guy paying with CASH out to be an oddball. Don’t think, just spend.
I love my Citi Mastercard for this – it has my picture and my signature imprinted on the front – and saves me no end of trouble, especially in Vegas where they always ask for ID. I’m not a jerk about it – I just point out the picture and then smile and ask if they really need another form of ID – usually they say no, on the rare occasion when they say yes I let them see my D.L. I’ve never seen anyone copy down the number. Having the signature imprinted on the front is also great, because the one on the back always seems to get worn off.
@discounteggroll: How did you verify their identity? Oh, you mean by asking for ID? LOL, good one.
In my line of business,(I’m a tattoo artist) checking ID is already mandatory. Health department law requires photocopies of ID on the back of consent forms. If credit fraud occurs, I will be the one who loses money, not the business owner, so preventing fraudulent charges is very important to us. Thus, if someone else offers their card for payment, we take that persons ID as well.
It is true that not signing your credit cards makes them invalid. I sign AND write “CID” As my signature doesn’t adequately fit in that tiny little strip in a way the resembles what will actually appear on a reciept. Actually, I don’t even wait for them to ask. I just present my ID with my credit card.
@Witera33it: Why would you show them your ID if they don’t ask? You know you’re you, after all.
Maybe people in CA can enlighten me, but with every purchase I made with debit or credit cards in California, I was asked for ID. A woman in Borders said it was California law – which according to this post would seem to be a half-truth. In the rest of the country, though, I’ve hardly seen a merchant even check signatures in the last ten years – especially where customers swipe their own cards. I’ve never minded, but it’s pretty asinine to call someone who objects to this whiny or a bad consumer.
Ignacio-
I have a solution for you: if you are so concerned that some clerk at an Apple store is going to steal your ID and/or memorize all your personal information while they look at your driver’s license for 2 seconds, pay cash.
Well, it is up to the Credit Card issuer to cover the fraud, Why else do they charge up to 32% interest on outstanding balances. They guarantee the valid charge if it clears their approval.
If you are really concerned about fraud and the resulting cost to visa/mc/discover, just write ‘CHECK ID’ in the signature line…..they will ask you every time. you will get sick of this real quick.
First thing i would ask, is are the back of your cards signed?
If not, then they are REQUIRED by both VISA and MC to ask for your card.
If so, then technically you are right, but good luck getting anything done about it
If you’re so worried about this, pay $8 and get a PO Box. You can have that displayed on your ID. Well, in IN you can. They just have to have a physical address in case you’re a terrorist…which is likely.
In southern California, every retails or supermarkets I go (except Target) ask me to show IDs.
@StevieD: Actually, you’re totally wrong. The merchant is not liable for fraud if the standard procedures are followed. Mandating an ID is not one of those procedures.
Asking is OK, but “Merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures.” is written in bold on p. 29 of the Rules for Visa Merchants-Card Acceptance and Chargeback Management Guidelines (as many have and will continue to point out).
The only time they record DL information is for processing discounts. They told me they need it to prove they checked a second form of ID or something. And I mean, if you don’t want to take advantage of the corporate discounts offered, you are well within your rights to decline the discount and pay with cash.
And personally, I would MUCH rather EVERY retailer required ID checking. I mean, can you imagine how much damage someone could do with a stolen credit card in a store like that?
Something else a lot of people don’t realize is that not signing a CC or writing C-ID on it without also signing it makes it so your card is not valid.
I’m proud of Apple on this one. I get agitated when I’m not asked to show my ID or my ID is ignored when I present it, especially since I’m using an easily-drained debit card. If they start to copy down information, or attempt to take the card out of my line of sight, I’ll just grab it back. All I let them do with my card is verify the name matches the one on my debit card and that the picture on the ID matches my face. The only times I don’t get upset for not being asked for my ID is if the cashier is a friend who actually knows me. If they don’t ask for my ID, I refuse to sign the receipt or enter my PIN until they’ve verified checked my ID and verified that I’m the owner of the card.
Please God let merchants ask for ID! My Visa was stolen and by the time I canceled he/she had charged over $800.
Luckily my bank reimbursed me. The over all experience was a huge pain.
If the merchant agreement is dumb, then is Apple wrong to violate it? I’m definitely on board with prohibiting retailers from storing personal info in excess of what’s required to process the transaction, but checking ID to use a credit card is a great way to mitigate fraud. Visa doesn’t want the retailers to check ID because they pass the cost of fraud on to the retailer, and anything that makes credit cards easier to use is good for Visa.
Is there some basic consumer right being violated here? We all know that places like to check ID for large credit transactions, why wasn’t this guy prepared?
AFAIK:
Apple requires your DL # to be recorded for educational purchases (verifying studentship?), but I’ve always had my ID checked by Apple employees. Having worked in a retail store myself where we ALWAYS required ID’s for purchases, I know that that simple requested deflected at least one case of fraud, and as I was in a mall at the time, we often got word of people using stolen cards around the mall, and their ID’s didn’t match.
I know Apple *does* require card-present transactions (tried to have my dad give his number over the phone while I was in store once. Didn’t work – apparently it’s corporate policy?) and that they do take imprints of cards if they have to key in the number.
As for checking ID being mandatory? I can see both sides of the argument. But if you’re honestly worried about a clerk with a photographic memory, ask for a manager to ring out your transaction. It takes you two seconds to show an ID. Don’t be an ass about it.
@lm: So do you think you’re trying to “train” the clerks? If you are you, you are gaining nothing by forcing them to ask for your ID. I’m sure the clerks would rather you just refrain from telling them how to do their job.
I love this comment board. That’s all.
@yesteryear:
@redhelix:
@ju_ju_eyeball:
Smooth move, people… all they have to do is type your name over a fake ID and they’re set to roll. Your cardholder agreement requires you to sign the damn plastic, so don’t be all smug over your cute (douchebag) ID-saving method. Just sign the damn plastic! Also, try processing a chargeback without a signature; most cards can and will hold you responsible because you DIDN’T SIGN THE CARD LIKE THEY ASKED YOU TO.
@snoop-blog: Yeah it is. We could arrest your 12-year-old for fraud. We’re just nice about it (most days).
@digitalgimpus: Not in the US, they aren’t… are you from the land of chip and pin?
@lm: using debit cards offer no protection against the consumer… if you use a credit card you get some much protection… do you realize that you willfully hand over your personal information to a stranger even though it isn’t needed to process your transaction? I guess you walk down the streets of San Francisco waving your Driver’s License,
I’m surprised people have only hinted towards this but nobody has really mentioned employee abuse. I worked at several shit jobs before getting a good one. For a time I worked as a movie theater ticket box cashier. Let me tell you, employees do take down id and cc information and use it later for petty personal purchases. The good news is that they are generally stupid and get caught…but employee cc/id abuse does exist.
omg…just show the ID.
so much drama for something so lame.
A few things:
1) Who gives a shit really?
2) Credit card issuers obviously care about identity theft, as it’s not passed onto you, it costs them and you get a refund.
3) Apple is getting really weird.
4) Maybe Apple needs to remember the 90s again and cut their elitist bullshit.
5) If your identity is indeed stolen, your life will get exciting for a brief moment.
Ignacio is a punk ass sissy. I work for Apple retail, and that is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. We do NOT ask for ID to record the info. Thats total BS. The only reason we ask for ID (for a normal purchase) is to make sure the picture on the ID, matches the name on the ID, and that matches the name on the card.
There are cases where AN ID (doesnt have to be a license) is recorded when you purchase something with your student discount, and that is just to make sure you don’t buy more than the alloted systems you are allowed to buy with a student discount.
I hate it when people like this guy say, “I am afraid of someone stealing my identity by showing them my ID”. That is just so frickin lame. You are more at risk if they DONT ask for ID.
Ignacio, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR INFO OR ADDRESS. YOU’RE SAFE.
@univision: i hope you dine at a restaurant and some kid asks you for id and jacks your identity and credit card info you a$$hole
@univision: Ha. It doesn’t surprise me that you work at an Apple store.
As far as the Apple store acted wrongly here, I don’t agree with not having to show your ID in the first place. It’s common practice in Europe and helps cut down on fraudulent transactions.
Ignacio, you’re way off base trying to make an ill-informed point. I highly doubt that the salesdrone was trying to make you his next victim of Identity Theft.
It doesn’t matter what the cardholder agreement says – State Law trumps whatever agreement a retailer signs with another third party.
STATE LAW:
CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE 1747.08 (d) This section does not prohibit any person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation from requiring the cardholder, as a condition to accepting the credit card as payment in full or in part for goods or services, to provide reasonable forms of positive identification, which may include a driver’s license or a California state identification card, or where one of these is not available, another form of photo identification, provided that none of the information contained thereon is written or recorded on the credit card transaction form or otherwise.
NOT STATE LAW:
Cardholder ID
Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures. Laws in several states also make it illegal for merchants to write a cardholder’s personal information, such as an address or phone number, on a sales receipt. P. 29, Visa Merchant Card Acceptance Policy.
@aphex242:
customers = more than one customer.
CORRECT
customer’s = possessive, indicating something belonging to one (or more) customer(s).
WRONG
customer’s = possessive, belonging to one customer
customers’ = possessive, belonging to more than one customer
@OfficeDespot: “DOES NOT PROHIBIT” that mean’s the law doesn’t care if the merchant asks/doesn’t ask for ID….. THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE MERCHANT AND THE CREDIT CARD NETWORK (VISA) IS A BINDING AGREEMENT THAT FOR THE MERCHANT TO BE ABLE TO ACCEPT VISA CREDIT CARDS THEY MUST NOT REQUIRE ID AS REQUiREMENT FOR PURCHASE. LEARN YOUR FACTS
On a personal level, I support the notion of asking for ID. I know that just the idea that someone will likely ask for ID dissuades the amateur credit card fraud type from even trying it face-to-face. I fail to see the danger here- it seems far less dangerous than handing a check to some clerk in a store.with your DL’s date of expiration (usually the month/year of your birthday on it).
1. Why is the argument not being asserted that it is not the Visa merchant agreement that is at issue but the retailers processing agreement. Why cannot one merely say that Visa would approve the purchase buy the conveyance that actually facilitates the technical sale requires ID be checked and based on that we are declining to process the sale further.
OR
If the retailer really wants to bog things down could they not just call the CC company for voice approval explaining the card holder are unsure of their identity has no ID in possession and putting the cardholder on the line w/ the CC company and get them to approve it directly- then it would be it on the CC company and the retailer would be insulated from a charge-back perhaps? In efficient yes but hey
2. Then there is always this: [www.zug.com]
@darkened: Actually, many states have laws stating that any mark signifying one’s intent to sign a document is a legal signature. This is due to the fact that for most of the existence of this country, the majority was illiterate and could not write their name if they wanted. Thus in Alabama they are forced to accept “Ask for ID” as my signature.
Here’s the catch-22 on that:
Since they are forced to accept “Ask for ID” as my signature, they are no longer required to ask for ID.
@OfficeDespot: I think you’re wrong here.
One can enter into an agreement to increase restrictions beyond state law.
One cannot enter into an agreement to loosen restrictions imposed by state law.
Remember that Apple also has a policy of only selling each person a limited totla number of iphones – because of unlocking and reselling. The drive to record IDs may be part of that.
Want to scare yourself? Read this (not mine, but I found it fascinating): [www.zug.com]
Basically, someone tests various business that accept CCs and gets crazy with the signatures. It’s pretty amazing how little attention is given by the cashiers even when it’s a stark difference (crudly-drawn pictures on the slip in place of a signature).
It’s your right not to show your ID with your credit card, but a lot of you seem keen on doing it because “oh its just easier to do it than make it a hassle.”
But don’t all of you get up in arms if you have to show your receipt at the door of a store??
Or are you selective about what rights you want and at what time?
As a retailer who works in a high ticket environment, I can say that this is an unfortunate situation. I used to catch rings of thieves coming in with stored value visa/mastercard debit cards
which had been remagnetized to contain the credit card numbers of unsuspecting people on a WEEKLY basis. These charges would be in the thousands of dollars, and if it weren’t for our asking for identification and realizing that the name on the ID didn’t match what was coming up as being swiped on the mag reader, we would have been faced with huge chargebacks and even more people would be faced with the task of explaining to their credit card company that they hadn’t purchased that $2000 Apple computer after all.
It’s safe to say that not everyone understands the reason why Apple would even think to ask. But I can guarantee you that if I were to call ANY of the people whose credit card I prevented from being used in an unauthorized way, they would be thankful.
And for the record, I have colleagues that work for the company and the policy has always been that an employee can ask for ID if the card is unsigned, or if there is strong reason to believe that the card is being used in an unauthorized way (such as the son/daughter coming in with the father/mother’s card) because technically a credit card is not valid unless it is signed, and the signature that is captured matches that on the card.
To the person who complained and found himself all up in arms about being asked for the ID … GET OVER IT. They just want to make sure you’re who you say you are, and the company isn’t sucking up huge chargebacks and in the end raising the cost of doing business because you felt like you were being violated in some way.
Also, the ONLY time I’ve ever had my ID information recorded in their system is when you make a purchase using the educational discount, because the system requires this information for auditing purposes (since you ARE getting a discount) and has nothing to do with the acceptance of your credit card.
Also, to respond to some of the posts above …
First off, American Express specifically notes in their cardholder agreement that only the assigned member may use their cards. I also checked both my Visa and Msastercard agreements for my personal cards and found similar verbiage. Just because you don’t think something is illegal because you see other people do it, doesn’t make it right.
Second … to the guy that talked about giving in to prevent a “small risk” … you’ve obviously never worked in a high ticket retail environment. We are TRAINED to identify fake IDs. Many retailers have a book that contains current and recently replaced state ID designs for all states, and that identifying characteristics of each. If there is a question, it goes to a manager. I’d guarantee you’d be mighty pissed off if your card number was used in one of these theft rings, simply because of the inconvenience surrounding proving you weren’t the ones making the charges, and all of the calls to customer service and fraud departments.