Format wars are iffy.

But as a electronics consumer, I know surprisingly very little about both formats other than the relative costs to manufacture and storage size of the discs.

Someone care to explain the pros/cons of each format?

An online petition? Yes! That's sure to work. Now to go convert some lesbians to heterosexuality! Then I'm going to go and show some KKK members Crash to get them to change their ways. I'm also going to go out to bars and score with tons of chicks by bragging about my extensive comic book, anime and video game collection...

I agree... i hate sony stuff... they only make it more standards is because of the anti piracy crap... i still like plain dvd...

There's no crazy pro or con to either. The key thing is competitiveness. Once hd dvd goes away, so goes your 5 free blu ray movies

dude, if hd dvd loses - thats the price you pay for early adopting. Think about mini disc enthusiasts. my parents bought into beta. Just swallow it and go blu-ray. somebody will lose in a war - that person unfortunately is you in this case. sorry broseph!

@exkon: Obviously both sides will claim theirs is superior, but the only real pros/cons I know of are: Blu-ray has more capacity, but can take a seriously long time to load a disc. HD-DVD is smaller, but faster to load. And in about 3 months the pros will be : Blu-ray has movies coming out, HD-DVD doesn't.

Stick a fork in HDDVD like I did....I returned my HDDVD player and got a PS3 instead.

Donald H. Rumsfeld has proclaimed these people to be "dead enders" who are grasping to a failed media regime. They should greet Blu-Ray as liberators from the oppression of multiple formats!

SCREW EM! HD-DVD owners were so smug after the release of the sub-$100 player that they were for sure going be the king! "I'd say, let 'em crash!"

It's like Betamax users are petitioning the government to have that horrible horrible VHS system lifted...

Where's the petition to petition HD-DVD petitioners to shut the hell up and go away with a shred of dignity left in their purses?

Because I'd sign that one.

The only real "Con" to BD is the region coding, something we basically already have with DVD anyway, so in essence we only stand to GAIN storage capacity in the move from DVD to BD, as BD has like 40% more capacity than their HD-DVD counterparts.

They both have drawbacks, but as a storage format (which in their bare-bones is all they really are)? Capacity is king.

HD-DVD is dead. Long live the king.

I'm gonna put my HD player in the basement next to my casette deck, my reel to reel player, my 8-track, and my betamax. Deal with it suckers you made the wrong choice.

No! As an HD-DVD owner (the 360 one, a gift no-less), I welcome the format crash, as it means wheelbarrows full of dirt cheap HD-DVDs.

Sure, I'll get Blu-ray at some point (most likely when theres more then a half-dozen PS3-exclusive games I'm interested in). Till then, bring on the 3.99 HD-DVDs please!

@exkon: Without going into too much detail, as for as size capacity, HD-DVD standard discs hold 15GB, with the Dual Layers holding, of course, 30GB, and Blu-Ray has a capacity of 25GB and 50GB. Although I did hear some talk that Blu-Ray has a "theoretical" maximum of somewhere near 200GB - whatever that means.

ugh, online petitions, worth the paper they are printed on.

@exkon:

Ok, well since you asked . . . (I'm sure that BD and HD DVD loyalists alike will take exception to some of these)

HD DVD Pros
->Complete spec/format since inception, resulting in a modestly more complete experience (PIP and Network connectivity are included in every player, unlike the BD Profile mess, of 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0)
->Interactivity via HDi (developed by Microsoft) is generally considered to be easier to implement than BD's Java-based menu system (although Java is far more flexible)
->Low player prices (please lets not argue about subsidy)
->Manufacturability of discs (requires a very minimal capital outlay for disc replicators to go from DVD to HD DVD, which OUGHT to result in lower costs and hopefully prices)
->Flipper DVD / HD DVD discs (DVD on one side, HD DVD on the other)
->AACS DRM (known and understood, relatively unobtrusive)
->No Region coding (discs purchased in Japan will work in your US HD DVD player)
HD DVD Cons
->lower 30GB capacity (versus BD's 50GB) and bitrate maximum of 28 (versus BD's 40, IIRC) -- no matter what anyone says, the advantage here is far from absolute or empirical, the law of diminishing returns applies, although some movies (long, fast action) would benefit from both
->less studio support (formerly only slightly so, now dramatic with the BDA having paid Warner, and likely Fox, to go BD-only with their movies)
->Single OEM of players (Toshiba is virtually the only C/E OEM making HD DVD players -- see "low price" above)

BD Pros
->More storage space on disc and higher maximum bitrate
->More studio support (dramatically so, now -- although as a consumer, I dislike the WAY they've managed to get more studio support . . . by paying off the studios, feels very anti-competitive to me; to be fair HD DVD paid for Paramount exclusivity as well)
->More C/E OEMs (first gen players were almost all Sony referece designs mfg'd by Panasonic if I'm not misaken, but since that point more C/E OEMs have started coming out with their own units)
BD Cons
->A "rushed to market" approach has resulted in the current Profile mess (profile 1.0 players do not have PIP or network connectivity, profile 1.1 players have PIP but no networking, and profile 2.0 players have PIP and network) making some players less than fully functional from the day they're sold -- on top of this, the marketing around profile 1.0 and 1.1 players is a bit deceptive in that neither really highlight the fact that some disc features may not work with certain profiles
->High priced players, if we're to compare functionally equivalent players (i.e., a full profile 2.0 BD player with a very good HD-A35 from Toshiba) BD player prices are roughly 2x HD DVD player prices
->High disc replication costs (too much detail to go into here, suffice to say that HD DVD, because it is more similar to DVD than BD is, is cheaper to produce)
->More DRM: BD players must be able to implement BD+ which is a player based DRM schema
->Region coding: BD allows for it (HD DVD does not)
->No "flipper disc" capability: if you're going to "go" BD, you've got to go all the way, no half-a$$ing it
->Since the profile 2.0 (the one with network connectivity) is still in the process of coming to market, there are no real web-based interactive special features on BD discs (yet)

I'm sure I left some information out. If so, wasn't done intentionally.

My personal take is that HD DVD is (was?) the Consumer's choice (low cost, lots of day to day advantages such as flipper discs, and easy firmware updates via the web), but BD was the Audiophile/Videophile choice and the choice destined to extract the highest amount of money from consumers' pockets.

Ha ha, although I guess I'd be a little bitter too if I bought a hd-dvd player. Maybe I should start a petition to bring back the laser disc, mini-disc, or beta max, etc. go blu-ray!

Whiners whining because they chose badly!

I didn't really care who won the war. One or the other, Sony or Toshiba, will make the licensing bucks. But as long as the war continued, consumers lose.

In case these bozos hadn't noticed, WB was getting licensing fees for HD DVD: WB was one of the originators of DVD along with Toshiba and had a cut of the HD DVD licensing fees.

The bottom line was that if the war continued, both formats would flounder and Microsoft's online delivery system would usurp physical delivery of content. This would be very bad for consumers because you would eventually be paying to play every time you played a movie (let's not argue about that).

So, if consumers wanted to continue getting and studios wanted to continue delivering physical content, Blu-ray was the more viable choice. Here's why:

If WB continued to sit on the fence, both formats would flounder and Microsoft would win.

If WB chose HD DVD, both formats would flounder and Microsoft would win.

If WB chose Blu-ray, Blu-ray would win and consumers would continue to have the option to buy physical media, this in addition to online delivery.

And, consumers agree:

Blu-ray players grab 93 percent of market after Warner...

So I and a lot of others waited until there was a clear winner. But these whiners made their beds and now want the world to stop spinning and suck up to them. We're done with the war. Blu-ray won. Get over it. WB will never go back.

@tbartley: Laserdisc ruled!

Additional Blu-Ray pro: Way cooler name. I mean, I'm glad I'm not going to be stuck saying "HDDVD" for the next 5 or so years.

C'mon let it go, we need just one format and end this whole war. Blu-Ray is pulling ahead and let it be. I'm tired of seeing both formats and support Blu-Ray simply because I was smart and bought a PS3 which has the best support for Blu-Ray.

HD-DVD isn't going to disappear forever. I heard Toshiba and all related parties are going to re-market them somehow. You're probably going to see HD-DVD PVR devices and most likely HD-DVD burners for the computer.

And it's really not accurate to compare Blu-ray with MiniDisc or Betamax. Those were Sony proprietary formats. Blu-ray is a collaboration from several hardware manufacturers and content providers. Sony is in the spotlight because they are both a hardware manufacturer and content provider.

If you really want to blame someone for this format war, you can blame Toshiba. They were the ones that decided to go on their own, rather than join up with the Blu-ray group. And XBOX 360 owners can blame Bill Gates, since he has a personal bias against all things Java.

WAAAAAAaaaaaaa!!!

Having waited on the sidelines until the war was over, I'll be buying my BR 2.0 capable PS3 in the next month or so.

@ussra2: So long as smart applies only to the PS3's Blu-Ray capabilities. :)

I think we're missing something here. The real problem isn't that one format is superior to another, it's that the movie studios are essentially accepting bribes at the expense of consumers.

There's no reason that every movie studio shouldn't release titles in both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Doing so certainly isn't cost prohibitive. Then, let consumers decide.

I hope that HD-DVD bounces back, not because I prefer one format, (I personally feel that Sony and Toshiba/Microsoft are equally evil), but because I want competition to organically force down prices.

I'm all for starting a petition to abandon both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and stick to DVD's! No wait...I don't really care all that much.

Must see youtube video on this topic. Hilarious!

@smitty1123: That works?!? Why don't I get this information?!? I'm on the mailing list!!!

{continues to sit and wait for decent 42" LCD to cost less than $1000 and reap the benefits of $1.99-$9.99 brand new DVD's}

Still thankful that I'm not a complete techno-phile... (so is my wallet)

I won't be surprised if *both* HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are gone in the next 2-3 years. With the ability to download HD movies and watch them on you HD tv, why go through the trouble of buying an HD/Blu-Ray player and DVDs?

Think about the music industry...CDs are going away, slowly but surely.

I was rooting for HD-DVD and almost bought one of those $99 players before Christmas (but couldn't find any in stock). However, with Warner going blue, it's over. I bought into DVD with the second-gen players, and my early DVD library was almost all WB.

I'm sorry, but HD-DVD should just give up. I don't want this lasting any longer than it has been... it was the same way with DVD-R or DVD+R, previous DVD formats, LaserDisc, Betamax, 8-Track, etc. You pay for it by adopting early to a format, not to include consumer confusion, etc... I know there are some benefits to HD-DVD, but Blu-Ray is the chosen one.

Or just wait for downloadable movies to become more mainstream... give it about 5 years. ;-)

@Hodo: HD DVD fanboys should try to avoid pro/con posts.

There really isn't a difference between HD and Blue-ray except for the recording. you know, this harkens back to the days of VHS vs Beta.Beta had a better picture, but less recording time, so VHS won out. Now, it is stupid for companies to put out the same movie on both formats because they would lose money. It is better if those 2 knuckleheads sat down and came up with a soltion that would involve 1 (one) player coming out. Then we could finally move away from DVD....

@dgcaste: Seemed like a balanced treatment to me. Can you rebut anything in his post, or are you satisfied to just play the ad hominem card?

@exkon:

At the end of the day, for you the consumer, this format war means mostly nothing. Both are pretty much disks that are meant to rapidly spin on a spindle and feed you data. I think Blu Ray has like a 10GB higher maximum storage limit (theoretically), but even that really won't affect you unless you're looking to archive gigantic amounts of data on them with a burner.

What it means for the big picture is a bit different. This was basically a Proxy war from the HD-DVD side by Microsoft vs. Sony who wasn't hiding behind anyone else. MS, being the MS that they've always been, wanted to make bigger inroads into the video game and 'convergence' market by way of the 360. By having the defacto disc standard on their side, it almost guaranteed a lock counterbalance to Sony putting Blu-Ray in the PS3. It would have allowed MS to clean up in every arena: On the PC (which they already have locked), on your gaming console (which they wish they had locked) and with your consumption of media.

Add a little DRM to taste and they become the gatekeeper and judge as to how you consume media on your home electronics. They also become the people that almost all studios have to deal with to get their content out.

I have a feeling the industry sensed this and the media heavies didn't get behind it for just that reason.

signed!

@LatherRinseRepeat:

"If you really want to blame someone for this format war, you can blame Toshiba. They were the ones that decided to go on their own"

You're wrong. It was Sony that broke away from the DVD forum (of which it was a founding member) to promote its format.

Dear HD-DVD,
Please throw in the towel so we can all move on.

Sincerely,
Everyone who doesn't (and will never) own an HD-DVD player.

Dear HD-DVD owners,
If given the choice between extending the format war by having Warner continue to back HD-DVD or help put it 6' under by supporting Blu, I'll pick the latter.

Get over yourselves, these are the breaks of being early adopters.

We are supposed to feel bad for people who just had to own the latest player and chose to totally ignore the VHS v. Beta wars? There really is truth in learning from history and dooming to repeat yada yada yada.

I was rooting for BluRay as it was a pretty good leap in storage capacity relative to the HD DVD. I look forward to buying movies again...someday.

What I loved the the VHS versus Betamax war was that there were no internet for retarded online petitions.

@HeartBurnKid: it is not an ad hominem attack: there is no argument to fight over. it is pretty clear that hd-dvd is going to die quickly. you might as well multiply all the pros and cons of said format by a weight of .01 except the one that talks about loss of studio support.

all of his hddvd pros are that, pros. all of the cons come with a note that try to break them free of their con status, or make light of some kind of market unfairness. then come the blu-ray pros, which are all downplayed to some kind of 'imaginary pro' with the exception of bitrate and storage which cannot be poo-coated.

also, it's worth noting that I did not critique any of his points. but can anyone here say that it was an impartial and objective recount of the virtues and faults of both?

fanboy or not issues aside. I try not to use that word, but seriously, they should let it go.

so you asked me to rebut anything in his post. I won't take to every single point in his discussion, but I will attempt several.

- rushed to market approach: every product evolves. and if you have a PS3 this might not apply to you.
- sentiment-based opinions, such as "I disagree with how they gained studio support" don't belong in that sort of list.
- the 'law of diminishing returns' in terms of bitrate. that might apply to quality of video playback, but not to amount of possible extra content or for the sake of data storage. 20 more gigs is 20 more gigs.

If Microsoft had built HDDVD capability into the Xbox 360 instead of having an add-on (and decided to eat almost as big a loss per console as Sony did) things would have gone the other way.

I am still waiting for a standardized format to record television shows that is portable. Sure there exist dvd players to do this but then you have to wonder whether the other person's dvd player supports the same disc type, recording format, etc. At least with a VHS machine you can be sure that any tape you record will work in any other VHS player.

I wonder how invested someone who is a "loyalist" is in HVDVD

Enough! HD-DVD is not going to die. It will still have a strong market for international releases due to its lack of region coding. So, yes, Blu-Ray wins Hollywood, but HD-DVD (hopefully) will still have a strong niche market to call its own. There is room for both. The Blu-Ray camp didn't need to resort to bribery to win this thing. They should have let the consumer decide.

@dgcaste:

Uh . . . OK . . . I guess? Trying to figure out why you would post that? I own neither format, and based on BD winning, I won't own a BD player until a fully functional brand name BD Profile 2.0 player is available for under $200 . . . which I'm guessing will be somewhere around January of 2009-ish (give or take 4 months).

Are my comments self-serving? Absolutely, in that I wanted to be able to buy into the format sooner rather than later. A BD victory means later (for me), that's all. It's not gonna' kill me.

As an aside, I do think HD DVD had the more well thought out and executed total package (and more consumer friendly) overall, but nothing talks like $$, and Sony put themselves in a position (with the PS3) that they HAD to ensure that BD won (a little Sun Tzu anyone?). As a result, they were more committed and won because they were willing to throw more money at the war. On the one hand I admire such committment and clarity of purpose, and on the other I bemaon it because they're gonna' want to recoupe that money from SOMEONE (gee, I wonder who?), which means, by extension that I'm going to have to wait longer than I wanted to in order to induldge in some HiDef goodness.

That's all there is to it, really, from my perspective. My sunk costs at this point = $0, how about you? ;)

@dgcaste:

What are you, twelve? This is format war here, not Sally (the hotest girl in the 8th grade) turning you down for a dance after the game . . . (I keed, I keed).

Seriously though, if you took, I don't know 20-25 seconds to go up and read the post I was responding to (here, I'll cut and paste for you because I KNOW how much work it can be to move that mouse around on your desk, my wrist hurts just thinking about, does your wrist hurt too . . . for the same reason?):

BY EXKON AT 12:25 PM Format wars are iffy.
But as a electronics consumer, I know surprisingly very little about both formats other than the relative costs to manufacture and storage size of the discs.
Someone care to explain the pros/cons of each format?

So, my post was to "explain the pros/cons of each format" like EXKON asked. To YOU, the list of pros and cons might not matter at all (.01 to use your written word), but then again, I don't believe I was responding to you, was I? I was attempting to answer EXKON. To take that a little further, you may suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder if you believe that in responding to EXKON I should have considered how YOU would have thought about my pros/cons list (in retrospect, what was I THINKING?).

Also, I'm betting of the two of us, you are the one who has "invested" in one of these two formats (again, for the record, I have not purchased either player type), and as a result, have a less objective view.

Lastly, since this site is "Consumerist" which is mostly concerned with Consumers' rights, getting a good deal and the like, your support of a more expensive (and controlled) format is somewhat puzzling? Did you lose your way en route to Blu-ray.com?