Wow, good article. Good job Chris!

isn't the whole point behind craigslist to DO and deal stuff LOCALLY, and not across the country?

Based on this and other bank stories on Consumerist, it seems like banks don't give a rat's ass about fake documents until they are out money. I'd suspect that Wells-Fargo figured that you are the scammer or would sue them for accepting the money order or something and that they have a deliberate policy of shutting down accounts affected by fake checks/money orders.

Yet they will allow people to withdraw real money as cashiers checks to send to Nigeria with no qualms whatsoever...

Wait... what?

I'm sorry that Chris got scammed, sure. But what happened to a little personal responsibility? Here's the link titled "Avoiding Scams & Fraud" that's at the top of every Craigslist for sale page and individual ad: "Avoiding Scams & Fraud"

One more reason to put in a disclaimer that you refuse to ship items until the check/money order you receive had time to clear.

Not that I would ever bank with Wells Fargo, but I wonder if there was any obvious reason why they immediately treated Chris like a criminal? Your bank is supposed to watch out for you. That's why you let them hang onto your money.

I think you need to change the title of the post. It makes it sound like the guy who filed the police report got arrested.

Not too long ago, someone hacked into my ebay account and posted a bunch of bootleg DVD box sets. They shut down my ebay account, but I eventually got it restored.

I went on paypal and someone with an IP address from Spain tried to hack into my account there. I would give anything to get my hands on this person.

As much as i hate police I'm glad they did justice for some one... finally.

Atta boy Chris!
I probably would have tried to deposit the money order first before shipping off the games though.

Wells Fargo treats all their customers like criminals- so their action comes as no surprise to me.

Wells Fargo is terrible. Run as far away from them as possible.

SUE HIM. Then if he doesn't pay, garnish his wages when he gets out and/or get a seize order. The cops will sell his stuff to pay your judgement!

Will serve him right.

Yes, you should have waited and/or only accepted USPS money orders (it becomes federal mail fraud if they're fake or you don't get everything you should) but honestly, I can't blame you for assuming stuff was legit.

The bank closing all your accounts for being a victim is the ultimate blame the victim stupidity. Definitely ditch that bank.

@darkened: Much as it sucks we do need enforcement roles in society, as this story proves. Why do you hate cops?

This is not meant to be a "shame on person" post since I think he did a great job in reporting it and getting the scum off the street.

But anything over $200 myself (this was close to $2,000), I always make sure checks & money orders clear before sending an item. In the past, I always believed Money Orders were safe - and refused checks for a long time - but I know MO's can be as fake as checks.

This is a good post since I believe many people still think Money Orders are a safe form of payment... which is a little safe, but still - beware

@COELACANTH: But, it would have still be screwed by his bank.

I also would reccomend going ahead with a police reoprt even when you think it wont do any good. I had some items stolen from my van the One time I forgot to lock it. I called the police and gave them a list of items missing one of wich happened to be two-way radios. It just so happened that a police officer had stopped some guy walking around late the night before because he had a backpack on and the area was getting a lot of graffiti. The guy let the cop search him and the cop found a two way radio on him that matched mine. So that same day i filed the report the cops got a warrant and busted him. Never got any stuff back and my insurance compnay "reimbured" me for %50 of the value of the stuff that was stolen after the $500 deductible (great deal that was). But at least he was caught, and maybe hell even do some jail time.

@tbartley:
Part of the problem with the "money order scam" is that even if folks deposit it and it clears and the money appears in your account you aren't really safe. Banks have come back weeks later and taken the money back saying the Money Order was a fraud.

BY LINCOLNPARADOX AT 03:04 PM
Not that I would ever bank with Wells Fargo, but I wonder if there was any obvious reason why they immediately treated Chris like a criminal? Your bank is supposed to watch out for you. That's why you let them hang onto your money.

Hmm...it seems that all San Francisco banks treat their customer's like criminals, based on the incident where BofA had a customer arrested for a similar situation.

Yes, you should have waited and/or only accepted USPS money orders (it becomes federal mail fraud if they're fake or you don't get everything you should) but honestly, I can't blame you for assuming stuff was legit.

BTW, you don't need the scammer to use a USPS money order, he just has to send the funds via USPS. Many scammers will only use other shippers for this reason.

What kind of dumb-ass thief uses his regular email address as part of a scam? Doesn't he know yahoo or hotmail addresses are free?

I experienced Wells Fargo and their version of customer service twice in the 90's and never ever will again. Find a local bank or a credit union.

We used to do ebay sales of some higher priced items. We never sent anything out until the money order or check cleared. We also discussed this with our bank and how many days they need before they consider an item to be completely clear and good. We would also confirm it any time we deposited a check or money order. If it was over $100 we required a cashiers check from a known bank. If it was over $500 it had to be done by wire transfer. This worked well but Paypal was the downfall, we wasted so much time trying to protect ourselves from scammers that would try to play the way Paypal works it just wasn't worth it anymore. We would spend tons of time proving that a $4 item was delivered and didn't get lost in the mail over and over again.

I am still trying to fathom how Wells Fargo sees their customer as the bad guy in this.

@Buran: Because it's cool to hate cops, didn't ya know?

Anyway, great story. It's good to see these thieving little bastards get nailed once in awhile.

Nice. On parole for a sexual assault too. Looks like he'll be heading back to federal pound-you-in-the-@ prison.

It would almost be worth it to me to lose 212 games, knowing it put a guy like that back in stir.

I agree with Buran. File a civil suit. Get what you can out of his ill-gotten booty. Or his ill-booten gotty.

Good job by Wells Fargo to punish the victim. You'd think they'd be interested in catching and prosecuting criminals to deter future potential criminals, but they appear to consider the loss as a cost of doing business.

I used to bank with Wells until I made a deposit via the ATM machine. It was credited for the wrong amount ($70 instead of $400 or so just before Christmas). I went round and round with them about what the three checks actually were and asked for their documentation on what I actually deposited.

I got a photocopy of THREE OTHER CHECKS that actually had full personal information including SS# for two people and absolutely no reference to my account numbers. It was also not in the same amount as what they'd mis-credited me. It's like they'd just grabbed a random set of deposits and mailed them to me.

Finally I just ditched the whole process of arguing with them and had the checks cancelled (one from my insurance company, one from my mom and one an expense check from work). Then I went over to Wells Fargo and closed out my account, in CASH. The manager made no attempt to even address any of my concerns, just argued with me over what sort of bills she could give me the balance in (she didn't want to open another drawer to get more $100s, instead gave me lotsa 20s.)

I also NEVER make deposits via an ATM any longer.

I am not at all surprised that Wells Fargo is still completely clueless when it comes to managing their paper.

I'm glad that someone astute cop is out there trying to stop this sort of fraud. It's like most of it is happening in a no man's land that no one wants to touch.

@Buran: Judging from his post history, it's either because he was busted for drug possession or he thinks they are tools of the evil phone companies...

When I buy/sell from CL I will not ship anything. I did put up 2 old computers for $50 each a year back and within 60 seconds of posting I had e-mails wanting to know if I'd ship them to

Africa.

They offered to pay the shipping plus extra; they went to a local buyer instead.

Chris: Stay in touch with the Pennsylvania District Attorney's office that is prosecuting this case. It's more than likely that they will be able to at least ask for restitution for the money you lost. When you call up, tell them that you were the guy from California who filed the report and ask to speak to the Assistant D.A. in charge of this particular matter. Whether you'll actually get anything is another matter. But I would at least try that route first before filing a civil suit. You may find that you can get some of your money back without the hassle and expense of bringing your own separate suit.

Finally, one of the good guys win.

Moral of the story: Don't mail anything out until payment has cleared.

@smitty1123: Actually they're tools of the prison industrial complex. It's abhorrent that we incarcerate more in American than i believe the rest of the world COMBINED.

The majority of our "criminals" are non violent offenders in jail for current societies prohibition. The only reason prohibition exists is the amount of money it funds to the PIC to build more prisons and to fund more police departments.

I hate the police because the majority of the time they are not investigating anything and spend their days catching criminals either by a.) breaking the law themselves legally (sting operations, it's fine for us to do it but not you) or b.) giving out tickets and accidentally stopping some other crime.

Couple that with the police's brash use of tasers which should be classified 100% as lethal weapons. They might not kill the majority of the time but most people won't die from being shot once by a gun either yet that is a "lethal weapon." And police's own total disregard for the rule of law and the constitution and their complete disdain in acting as a normal human being as they are literally above the law.

Further more the police attempt to coerce even innocent parties into admitting guilt to a lesser crime regardless of whether they did it or not just to cop a plea instead of facing the entire book of charges cops will attempt to punish a person with for not playing ball. That personifies you are guilty there is no innocent until proven guilty, sign here or you will be guiltier. Even "Guilty until proven innocent" is barely held up anymore it's just plain "You are guilty, you get to choose of what."

I could go on more, but do I need to?

@darkened: "I could go on more, but do I need to?"

Oh, hell no. Please stop.

SKEPTIC- You're correct. Since he used the US mail, it's considered mail fraud, a federal crime. For those non-lawyers out there, its how Tom Cruise won in "The Firm."

LawyerGay- I agree, you may even be able to be a witness for the prosecution and help put this guy away. It's unlikely that they'll need you in person with all the paperwork you have, but they may ask you to authenticate it.

@darkened:

So, about internet fraud...?

[profile.myspace.com]

Apparently, this guy's got a myspace under his name as well. He also hate's paypal, so he's got a lil' consumerist in him. Unfortunately, that's not an excuse to go sending out bad money orders.

@darkened:
Odd. I have never done anything to even warrant being questioned.

I have never had a taser aimed at me.

Seems if you just keep your nose clean, you need not worry about anything you describe.

I guess if people would stop blaming the police for doing their jobs, and instead not do stuff that ends up in a confrontation with them, we wouldn't have to incarcerate so many people.

Keep your eye on the sparrow.

Calling the police works very well. I once bought an item from a guy on eBay and he refused to deliver after I paid. I began systematically contacting all of his recent buyers and put together a group of about a dozen people whom he had also scammed within the same week. I then called his local police department.

This idiot was in a small town and had use his real address. The small town cops were real nice on the phone. After I explained the situation, one of them paid him a little visit. Knocked on his door, had a little chat with him and everything. She called me back and he had given her some BS story, but she had advised him to either refund the money or send the goods immediately.

He sent the goods. Unfortunately they were significantly not as described - completely trashed would be more appropriate. He blamed UPS and tried to refuse to give me a refund. I simply had to remind him that I could make another phone call to the police and have him arrested if he wanted to play with me. He decided he didn't, and refunded my money as well as the money of several of the others I had contacted.

Police are getting more and more used to dealing with this type of crime and are taking it seriously. So, call 'em. It got my $150 back.

all my craigslist sales explicitly state "CASH ONLY" for this and a number of other reasons and I won't deal with anyone from outside my metro area unless they wanna drive here.

Another alternative is to use escrow services like escrow.com. Buyer sends $$$ to neutral 3rd party. Seller sends goods to neutral 3rd party. When neutral 3rd party gets $$$ they send the goods off to the buyer. No fuss. No muss.

BY FROMTHISSOIL AT 03:59 PM
...
Moral of the story: Don't mail anything out until payment has cleared.

Got to be real careful with that one. Even when the bank says it cleared it may not be cleared. Your bank will not give you any absolute assurance that a check has "cleared" and that the money is guaranteed to be "yours," not even after more than 10 days.

@darkened: @darkened:

Prison industrial complex? Please.
The US does not incarcerate more than the rest of the world *combined*, either. More per 100,000 than every "Western" nation, yes. Many states do not report totals, others routinely execute prisoners without regards for their "Human rights", either.

As for imprisoning "non-violent" offenders--I assume you're talking about drugs. They are not in jail because of society's "prohibition"--they are most likely in jail for theft, driving drunk, wandering around stoned and/or otherwise being stupid enough to get caught while high.

You'll argue that drug users hurt "no one but themselves", which is true if they're rich enough to afford their habit without breaking into your parked car/garage/house/wallet to fund their habit. Then they're hurting someone, aren't they? Why should someone shoot up/smoke up based on all your hard work as a law-abiding citizen?

You hate the cops for "accidentally stopping other crime" while "giving out tickets" [let me guess, going 80 in a school zone is a societal prohibition, too] yet you obviously don't want them busting down doors and violating your 4th A. rights instead. Your cognitive dissonance is stunning.

And a taser has a chance of killing you, yes, but that chance is absolutely minute when compared to what might happen if the police shot you with some other kind of projectile.

@darkened: RON PAUL '08

@darkened:
I agree. Everytime I've actually needed the police, they ended up telling me to fuck off, and that my concerns were not important to them.
When I didn't need them, they ended up harassing me for no other reason than because MOST (not all) cops are complete dicks.
Like one time, I needed the cops to come over because my car was broken into and badly badly damaged. Called them up and when they got there they started harassing ME, the victim, for no real reason that I could deduce other than that they were assholes. Not to mention the fact that it was about 30 degrees out and it took them 2 hours to arrive. Another time I called them because a random car parked in my driveway. I had first called a towing company and they said they wouldn't do it without a cop, so I called the cops, they said to call the tow company, and to literally "fuck off, your call is not important, do not call again." Called the tow company back and they said I was SOL. Protect and to serve what again? Oh yeah, their own best interests.
Another time, I was at a party and the cops came by. They started harassing everyone there and making them do the drunk tests because most people there were underage. It just so happens that no one had been drinking and they had no proof of it, but that's beside the point. Somehow, the same cop had met up with my sister at another party at the same apt complex and had gotten into some sort of argument with her and she was almost arrested, but of course, I didn't know that, and of course, he started harassing the shit out of me for being related and taunting me about what he knew and what I didn't know. I asked him politely to please tell me what had happened, and he simply continued to cuss and taunt me.
ANOTHER time I was in Chicago, at a rave. The rave was badly organized, and there were some people who had been waiting in line for up to 3 hours and had already paid for their tickets, although there was no real reason why they were still outside other than that it was terrible organized. Eventually, people in the back started pushing and there was a stampede (very frightening, I can't recommend it). Everyone wound up in a large tent which was the security/ticket taking area. First, security stormed in and started beating anyone within reach. Then, the cops came, and you know how friendly Chicago cops were back in the 60s? Now they're even friendlier and armed with deadlier weapons, hooray! Needless to say, a lot of innocent people were hurt unnecessarily because the cops didn't know what they were doing, including a friend of mine who "talked back" to a cop by asking him when he'd be able to get into the show with his prepaid $30 ticket.
I'm in a situation now where I'm being harassed by an ex, and everyone I know says to call the cops. However, I know my ex won't kill me, but there's a good possibility that the cops, being the dicks that they've been in the past when I needed help, WILL kill me via taser, suffocation from a knee on my throat, gun, or a good old fashioned beatdown. There's no telling what will set them off and what won't, so it's best just to steer clear of the entire operation.
Sorry for the rant, but people who think that cops are around to actually help are smoking something and should be arrested.

@trujunglist:

Well, one of two things is possible:

1. You keep on attracting bad apple cops.

2. The issue is with you.

Personally, I'm betting on #2. Occam's Razor and all that.

@darkened: Wow, I could make fortune selling tin foil hats to people like you. That or illegal weapons...

@trujunglist: "Sorry for the rant, but people who think that cops are around to actually help are smoking something and should be arrested." Hmm...arrested by the cops? By the way, I'm selling tin foil hats...j/k.

@lawyergay: I agree that Chris should stay in touch with the DA and ask about victim compensation. Heck, the only crime I've been a victim of in Philly was an attempted car theft - there was an undercover operation on site that caught the theives before they made off with my car - and THEY called ME after the fact to try to give me money. I had to convince them that, in fact, I lost nothing due to this attempted crime and I didn't think PA owed me any cash for it. I'm surprised Chris has not heard from anyone, assuming he does have a police report in the works.

Stop blaming the cops for policies they do not create and start voting out the a$$-hat politicians who create the policies the police have to enforce to keep their jobs!

And I second the Ron Paul '08 comment!

Call the bank where the check was written (verify the phone number online first) and ask about the a account. If you have a check, you have enough information to verify the check is valid prior to deposit. Do this for any bank check from a unknown source. I had two checks sent to me that were bogus. Shredded. The banks were already on to them.

@joellevand: I was joking, you utter n00b. GO BACK TO REDSTATE.