Cathay Pacific Thinks Your Kid's Car Seat Is A Security Threat
James writes:
We were kicked off the 747-400 because they refused to allow a car seat on board and my two year old son was incapable of staying in his coffin-like seat. We were told we were a security threat, threatened to be left behind and accused of not following crew instructions.We were flying back from China on a vacation that was business related. I had my wife, Christine, our baby sitter Kathleen and our two boys, Max, age five (5) and Rex age two (2). We flew to China by Cathay Pacific. We took on our child's FAA approved car seat and with Rex strapped in he slept the entire way to Hong Kong. Such was not be the same on the way back.
We flew business class. I paid nearly $20,000 just for the tickets. Full fare each way. So we get aboard the new 747-400 and the seats are arranged in a herringbone pattern. Walls separate each seat from each other like little coffins. I put the car seat in and began to get Rex in his seat when I am told no car seats allowed. I explained that Rex is 2. He does not have the mental capacity to sit alone and the seats that they have would strangle him or allow him to unbuckle himself. There is a three point harness on the 747-400 that is at the right level to strangle children. When I had no luck in demonstrating that the seat was FAA approved and was the only safe way to fly, two fellow passengers stepped in: an attorney from Fulbright & Jaworski and another passenger who heads a hedge fund came to our aid to negotiate with the airline. I took the car seat out as they requested and then sat Rex in his seat - as if right on cue, he reclined the entire chair flat and unbuckled himself - we did this three times.The airline staff being misinformed about the car seat is one thing, but there's no need for the airport manager to get all huffy and tell James that he poses a security threat. At best, that's uncalled for and at worst its an abuse of airport procedures. Oh, you're disagreeing with me? You must be a security threat. Someone call the 9/11 commission.First class seats that had forward facing chairs were not offered to us.
After 30 minutes the captain eventually comes down and seemed to agree that the car seat was the safest. Yet his crew told him the rules, the rules must be followed (I guess that is what you get in a communist country) so faced with a crew who refused to allow us to use the car seat - the captain takes a vote of his crew - they kicked us off.
We are taken from the plane and not told of making any new arrangements. My wife is crying, my son Max who loved the seats was traumatized. Rex was loving the attention and I was left feeling helpless. I was, as father the guy who remains calm, who has the answers and relies on logic and reason - yet, here I was thousands of miles away from justice and a bill of rights and totally at the mercy of the Cathay Pacific manager, Andrew Man. I was essentially alone and had to put up the face of cool, calm and collect Jim Daily. It was all that I could bear. I stood at the window looking out at the 747 as it pulled away while surrounded by Cathay Pacific employees.
The Airport Duty Manager, Mr. Andrew Man was introduced to us. In our conversation he threatened my wife and I. He told us we were a security threat - that we had violated an order of the crew (he never told us what since we followed everything they asked us to do) He told us we were not going to get on any other flights and continued to claim we were somehow a threat -to date we know of no order that we failed to follow.
I believe that people need to know that the Boeing 747-400 is unsafe for travel by children. That the airline has no capability of providing for a toddler and no answer to the problem of an incompetent individual sitting aboard their plane. The airline allowed our son to fly in his car seat from the USA - they sold our son the ticket - then without our knowledge, without any input from us or warning to us at anytime, they refused him the only safe way to fly. Further they had all sorts of rules, but no common sense.
Threatening my family because they had no answer - how does a toddler fly if not on his car seat strapped in so he cannot let himself out?
Here is the e-mail I wrote while in their custody awaiting another flight...they did get us out on another aircraft that had all forward facing seats.
Dear Mr. Man:
Thank you for speaking to me after our my wife Christine, son Maxwell age (5), son Rexford age (2) and our baby sitter, Kathleen D. were told to disembark from the plane because our son Rexford would not be able to sit in his car seat and risked injury to himself and others by his being placed into his seat unattended.
You have advised me that I, my wife, our sons or our baby sitter violated a safety regulation by not following the instructions of captain or crew. The actual allegation of what we did or did not do was not clear to me.
Nevertheless I disagree with any such claim and would appreciate a copy of any such report of the incident so that I may address such claim directly.
Please forward a copy of any such report to my office. I reiterate that we followed all directions from the crew. When they told us to stow the car seat, we did. The delay, if any, was that our son kept getting out of his seat. This did not make us feel that our child was safe in such situation and we addressed that with your crew and the captain. Our son Rex sat alone in the seat and unbuckled himself no less than three times while your crew was there. We were never informed before boarding that car seats were not allowed and we do not believe that your plane was designed for children age 2 to sit in business class - the seats are unsafe at any speed. A child is subject to strangulation or decapitation by sitting in such seat. Car seats are the safest seat for them. Your company should revisit its policy in this regard.
We look forward to an uneventful flight out. The entire affair has left us exhausted, stressed and saddened by the entire experience. We hope that some good will come of this.
Please contact me if you are interested in any further information concerning this matter. Our home phone number is [redacted]
Best Regards,
James D.
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Comments:
747-400s unsafe for children? I know what kind of plane I'm requesting next time I fly.
Well, here's one solution: put the 2 year old and the babysitter in coach. No need for a car seat there, and the babysitter can look after the 2 year old.
Ugh. Babies on a long flight are bad enough- a baby in Business Class is unacceptable. I'm sure the other passengers were happy that baby Rexford somehow posed a security threat.
That said, yeah, the airline should have made sure they could accomodate the kid before they sold the ticket.
If you pay upwards of $20,000 for your seats and whatever your doing isn't negatively impacting anyone or anything there should be no reason why you can't do it. I think the best you can do is make a big stink out of it here and hope that people won't feel comfortable investing in a child hating corporation. While they might not hate children what else can we conclude from such an insolent? Maybe if they respond we can take it from there.
@sonichghog: Quick! Someone get that child a lead-based-paint covered toy!
So the car seat that WAS fine going over WAS NOT fine coming back... because of the type of plane providing service? That's a head scratcher because you can't really argue "How do you think we got it here in the first place?".
FAA approved should mean just that, and apply across all manner of commercial aircraft that would allow/require the use of car seats.
What part of "FAA approved" do these people not understand? And since when did the captain not have final authority regarding what's safe? I hope this guy gets what he deserves -- a sincere apology and a new ticket.
Due to safety and regulatory requirements, no baby car seat can be used in the new Business Class
* The new Business Class will be progressively introduced in B744, A340, A330 and B777-300ER
I'm curious whether he bought tickets before or after the policy went into effect.
How did he get home or is his family living in a Chineese airport like Tom Hanks did in that one movie?
Growing up as a small child I KNEW when I was a grown up I wanted obscene amounts of power, virtually unchecked, over other people. For years I dreamed of being a police officer or local prosecutor.
Now, after 9/11 I'm trying to become an airline employee
"we do not believe that your plane was designed for children age 2 to sit in business class"
Call me foolish, but maybe that's because children age 2 don't have any business to conduct?
@Buran: China's version of the FAA actually has teeth and rules are rules, even a pilot can't override them.
I have a feeling that "FAA Approved" means nothing to Cathay Pacific, a non-US based airline. If you want to claim "FAA approval" of something, you may have to be on a U.S. based airline company for them to take it seriously.
"Vacation that was business related"?
Babysitter?
"Business-class" seats?
This guy is a spoiled wanker. (Who admittedly was subjected to some pretty nonsensical crap!)
Hey Oppressor-of-Chinese-laborers! Fly your own plane the next time you want to siphon off the savings of the middle class! Enrich the godless commies while you're at it!*
*I keed! I keed! ;)
@HeyHermano: Great catch!
Looks like Cathay changed the posted policy on their website sometime between February 2007:
[web.archive.org]
and May 2007:
I don't know when James bought his ticket.
I feel sorry for the guy, even if he didn't read the fine print.
On the other hand, I want to punch his neck in for naming a kid "Rexford".
I like that the fella wanted to be upgraded to first class for free to accommodate his breaking of the rules.
Travel tip #18: If you're traveling abroad and bitch that you're a US citizen and that US rules must apply to you, your service level will go down, not up.
Also, if I had paid that kind of money to be flying business class and your kid who can't sit still BEFORE the plane takes off is in the process of being kicked off, you can bet the whole $20,000 you paid for the tickets I wouldn't be coming to argue on your behalf.
Boy, for a guy that can afford to send his whole family back and forth to china on business vacation, he really has shitty grammar and writing skills.
@pegr: you're a "spoiled wanker" when you get thrown off a plane and called a "security threat" for having an FAA-approved car seat, for being treated like crap by the staff, for having done nothing wrong, for having done your best to try to resolve the situation?
Fortunately, if it's a full-fare ticket, you can get it refunded. Do so. Book with someone else. Send CP the proof of this and tell them why they lost you as a customer.
@watchout5: Well, I disagree, if you are breaking the rules, it doesn't matter whether or not you think the rule makes sense.
The writer needs to get over it, if he would have followed the rules and not tried justify himself (not all rules are easily justifiable, why can I go 35 but not 37 - 37 is surely not too dangerous on a clear day on a straight non-residential road). The rules are set, just use common sense and obey them. And like someone said, send the babysitter and the rugrats to coach where they belong not business class where they will whine and cry about being in a coffin.
Just curious, but what is the siginificance of an attorney and someone who heads a hedge fund for his story?
Sometimes you just have to suck it up...one time would be when you're stranded in China :o
The kid would probably bawl half the way home because I would tan his butt each time he unbuckled himself, sadly, that would be about the only option. But he would stay in the damn seat...
The seats cannot accommodate a car seat, and that is explained on the airline website, yet he is surprised that he was not allowed to break the rule?
If the crew had allowed him to use the car seat and the child was injured, who would bear responsibility?
Geez, he could probably just afford his own jet.
I couldn't really read this long complaint because I was too disturbed by the underage cheerleader crotch shots from a Gawker Art add. ughh.
I've never flown business class before, but it's comforting to know that if I ever do, according to Consumerist commenters I will deserve the worst treatment possible for having the audacity to purchase the ticket.
Editors, maybe you should start leaving out more identifying details from stories to forestall the wave of "that rich guy deserved it" comments.
@neithernor: Sure, there are the "rich guy deserved it" comments, but he is acting like a spoiled child. The fact that he seems completely powerless to stop his child from reclining the seat and unbuckling himself furthers the case against him. Then he goes on to say that the kid could have been decapitated. Buddy, if the plane stops fast enough to decapitate your child, chances are he wasn't gonna make it anyway.
The fact the car seat is FAA approved has little, if any, relevance. This occurred in China, on a non-US carrier. The FAA has no jurisdiction there. While one could say that the FAA approval means that it's safe to use on an airplane, different countries have different standards. So the Chinese may deem it unsafe. However, in this situation it seems that the aircraft layout prohibits its use. From a customer service standpoint, Cathay probably should have upgraded them to first class, since given the fact they are slowly rolling out this new business class it would be difficult to know if the plane on a given flight would have been upgraded. The guy does sort of come across like a self-entitled prick, but I'm sure some of it is just blowing off steam.
@canerican: If this was a stated and enforced rule, why did they allow his child to use the seat on the flight over?
And to those of you who think a child should not be allowed in business class - start your own airline and have a no kids policy, if you want. I've had my kid in business class and I've had her in coach. She was more relaxed and happy in business class because of the room , just like I was. She didn't bother anyone (in either coach or business) because I, as a responsible parent, spent the whole flight watching, correcting, and entertaining her, as all parents should. Good on these people for paying their babysitter to accompany them, for this very reason. If I have the cash and I want my family to be comfortable, I'll be in first or business class, and if you don't like it, -you- move to coach.
@womblebug:
If you read the link above, you'll notice the SOME of Cathay's 747's have a new business class arrangement that prohibits the safe use of car seats. I do, however, agree with your rant about the people who seem to think children should be kept out of business class. As a childless person, I HATE it when parents cannot control their bratty, loud kids, but those who can should not be prohibited as a whole from such places.
I think we're all ignoring the real issue here: "Rexford"? Ugh.
Rexford? I suspect the 2yo has a life ahead of problems far exceeding being kicked out of BusinessClass. I pity the poor souls that paid $5000.00 a head to sit next to your fidgety child (whom I assume, with the name Rexford a personal nanny, and a family that vacations BusinessClass on the company dime, must be a holy terror for 5 minutes much less a 13hour flight.)
Just because you have the cash doesn't entitle you to disturb my time at the expense of your family's comfort. I will be the first one to complain -- and only hope that you don't listen to and comply with the flight crew -- so I can see you being dragged off the plane into the arms of the police, whose role is to seemingly babysit those that can't do it themselves. I'll be in first or business class, and if I don't like it, -you get the boot.
@HEYHERMANO excellent catch however the story says they were flying in a 747-400. The no-children business class policy lists "B744, A340, A330 and B777-300ER" planes. I'm not familiar with plane naming lingo but it looks to me like the 747-400 is not on that list. Can someone explain if the 747-400 is a subclass of planes on that list? Otherwise it seems like this new regulation has no bearing on the plane they were traveling in.
@Pylon83: I would understand if the configuration of the seats prevents the use of the car seat. However, I'd expect to be made aware of this before I booked the flight, or if the plane had to be used unexpectedly, I would expect compensation or a replacement flight (assuming of course I had indicated that I was flying with a child and a car seat, and assuming the airline was bright enough to include this indicator if some of their planes won't handle the seats).
I also think it's interesting that either Cathay or Boeing, or both in conjunction, are outfitting planes with seats that effectively eliminate particular customers. Would be more honest to just tell people their little kids aren't welcome, IMHO.
@telarium: No, I don't get the boot for your comfort, asshole. I get the boot if I or my child cause a disturbance or safety issue for the plane or crew. And I doubt that your complaining about my child will automatically cause the flight crew to boot me.
Maybe they'll just put some Benadryl in your martini so none of us have to listen to your whining.
Maybe this is a common occurrence or my experience was just coincidentally related but coming home after Christmas I also happened to find myself on a 747-400 and saw nearly an identical situation play out. In fact, that's why I clicked on the headline, because I thought maybe it was the same plane I was on.
We were waiting for takeoff and I became aware that there was a commotion going on a few rows in front of me. I didn't really care, I was thinking more about the flight, but I heard some raised voices and that the flight crew was involved. Apparently some parents had brought their car seat for their child but it was too large to fit in the seat and could not be safely used. And so the airline demanded that it be taken and placed in the cargo hold with the checked baggage which did not seem to make the parents very happy because they were worried about it getting damaged and because their child was now, as they felt, unsafe. The end result was that the airline got its way and the flight crew basically said "If you don't like it write a letter."
@jtheletter:
The 744 is a 747-400, it's abbreviated that way. Perhaps Cathay should explain that on the site.
@womblebug:
"Maybe they'll just put some Benadryl in your martini so none of us have to listen to your whining."
Seems like you're familiar with this situation. Man, I'd LOVE to be YOUR kids.
@womblebug:
They are not eliminating a particular class of customers from the entire airplane, just a particular portion of it. Notice it doesn't say "no children", it just says no car seats in Business Class. It makes no mention of Coach or First class.
@Pylon83: True, but if you travel with a child two or under, unless you want to have them in your lap for the whole flight, your only other option is to purchase a seat and have them ride in their car seat. For an overseas flight, this basically does prohibit kids two and under from flying in business class.
seriously.. how much is a private flight? i mean that kind of money for a one-off flight and he flew commercial airlines? seriously?
for 20k id call superman to fly me there at mach 3 or something lol.
@womblebug:
Exactly. It prohibits them from flying in BUSINESS class. It doesn't keep them off the plane entirely. In fact, on a 3 class airplane (coach, business, first), it only makes 1/3 of the plane off-limits. This seems entirely reasonable to me.
@krztov:
Private from NY to London would probably be over $50k. No matter how you slice it, commercial is almost always cheaper, especially to international destinations.
"Someone call the 9/11 commission." Ben, This happened in China, not the USA.