That $3000 Was Fraud? Chase Doesn't Care, It Only Wants Money
Brandon writes:"In January 2007, I was traveling in Mexico and was mugged, having my wallet and passport stolen. By the time I got back to the hotel and began calling my credit card companies to cancel, the criminal had charged close to $3,000 on my CHASE Circuit City Visa card. I explained to CHASE that the charges were fraud, and they sent me a fraudulent charge affidavit to complete and have notarized. As I couldn't take care of this until I returned from my trip, and had more important things like a passport to worry about, I waited a few weeks before completing the paperwork and during those weeks received about 2 calls a day from CHASE urging me to send the documents."
I completed it and sent it certified mail along with a copy of the police report, the certified mail was delivered and signed for but the calls continued, apparently they never received it. About a month later when I finally had time, I made copies and resent everything to CHASE, finally the calls stopped.That just makes no sense. You called and reported the fraud the day of, and yet they're still trying to collect. Under federal law, you have no responsibility for unauthorized charges after reporting loss or theft of a credit card. That you waited a few weeks to send in the papers doesn't matter. Worst case scenario, your maximum liability is $50.I took this to mean that the documents had been received and that everything was taken care of, hardly the case.
I canceled the card as I never use it, so I no longer had access to the online payment system and could not check up on the balance, and so I let it go figuring everything had finally gone right.
About 3 months later I begin getting the same 2-3 calls a day from CHASE, this time demanding that I pay the $3,000 plus over $100.00 in interest and that my account is very past due.. The messages say to reach Norm at so-and-so extension as he is handling my case. I call, get voicemail, leave a message and never hear back about 3 times.
The calls keep coming and I finally give up, not having time to deal with the situation I begin hanging up every time I see the number on my caller ID.
Shortly after that, my account was referred to CCS collection agency for breach of contract, I was contacted by CCS agent Terry Orr who was actually very nice, explained the whole situation, listened to what I had to say, and told me to fax his office the same documents that I had mailed to CHASE months prior. After receiving the documents, I received a very friendly follow-up call saying that they had determined that the balance was fraud and would refer the case back to CHASE and they had no control over what chase would do with that ruling.
It has now been about two weeks and the 2-3x a day calls have resumed from CHASE again, what can I do in this situation, this is bordering on harassment as far as I'm concerned, haven't a met a decent enough burden of proof that the charges were fraud.
Thank You,
Brendon L.
Have you sent them a "drop-dead" letter? Or a letter of dispute? Include the information in the preceding paragraph in your letter.
You could also try kicking it up to Chase executive customer service:
1-888-622-7547 - extension 4350
or
847-488-6833, or 888-622-7547 x 6833 - Jessica Pozehl
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Comments:
Actually its completely legal, and I had to deal with this issue recently myself (though I took care of it)
The problem is without that affidavit, its STILL not considered fraud and if its not sent in ASAP then your agreeing that the charges they note on there where in fact legitimate charges to your card. Your right Ben in that it IS a federal law, but there is ALSO a timetable and the person in question did not follow it at all.
Now just to blow this guy out of the water here, while I do agree there where more important things to take care of over your card first... the forum in question for me was 4 pages long and required you to check off a few boxes next to each purchase that is suspect and sign your name.
It took me 7 minutes to fill out check off and Fax to the number listed. Hell they even gave you a pre-metered envelope so you didnt even need a stamp.
Just to add, this was a Chase card I was talking about in my case. Some redneck in Virginia tried to charge 100 dollars to it at a gas station. Still dont know how he got my number since I do not use the card online, and the card never left my wallet, but thats a different story.
I hit submit too soon. Dont take that as I'm laying fault with you. Was the paperwork they gave you inordinately large or complex is what I'm getting at. I had something similar happen to a Citi card I had and the paperwork was only 3 questions, but the ball couldn't didnt get rolling until I had filled it out.
@Falconfire: I work for one of those big nasty banks and we deal with money laundering / fraud stuff all the time. We just had something come across today where people were buying credit card numbers from "e-gold.com" and using those. So even those hicks in Virginia can make good on identity theft thanks to the magic of anonymous interneting...
Wanted a clarification...
It took a you a few weeks to get back to the US...or you got back to the US and then waited an additional few weeks before first ?
I am ridiculously guilty of procrastinating on things like this, especially because I hate hate hate dealing with customer service types.
But when $3000 is at stake, I would be keeping on top of these people!
I don't know how much I can sympathise here. Apparently, Chase promptly supplied all the documentation that needed to be filled. Chase also made sure that their customer is damn well informed about necessity of filing out and submitting that information ASAP. The customer decided that, first, he couldn't find time in a couple of weeks to fill out and mail the documents. Then when he finally got around to it, he failed to follow up for THREE MONTHS. Finally, when problem re-surfaces, his response is to call a couple of times and then start ignoring the phone calls?
We're talking about $3000 here... anyone who can act so carelessly as to border with arrogance deserves to have their ass bitten. "It's fraud so it's bank's problem, not mine" is just not a valid excuse - it's not even close to a valid excuse.
I will also have to disagree with a portion of Ben's commentary:
That you waited a few weeks to send in the papers doesn't matter. Worst case scenario, your maximum liability is $50.
I don't see how that could be true: if it was, it'd be a perfect loophole. "Hello, bank? Yes, my credit card was stolen. I'll provide proof of theft in, uh, a month after holiday shopping spree?"
No. Just no. I will wholeheartedly agree that Chase is not handling the issue with anything resembling customer friendliness or concern for customer's financial wellbeing - but then again, customer himself didn't display that much concern for his financial wellbeing either.
I find myself having little sympathy for this guy as he did everything wrong... waiting a "few" weeks to send in an affidavit, not following-up to confirm that the situation was being handled, canceling the account so he no longer has access to his records, leaving messages with an unresponsive person instead of asking for someone else to handle his case, and perhaps worst of all, hanging up on them. Seriously?
A $3,000 fraudulent charge is not to be taken lightly, and it just seems like he didn't try very hard.
Still calling 2-3 times a day? Threaten to sue for harassment. CCS seems to be taking care of it, so you don't really need to worry what they say.
I would not do business with Chase or Circuit City.
No... you have to report the card as stolen, and as soon as you make the report, you are off the hook. The filing of an affidavit of fraud is NOT the event that starts the clock rolling. If it were, we'd be on the hook for an awful lot of fraud while the credit card company got the forms to us.
A personal story... my Mother's credit card number was stolen from someone who used it to open numerous AOL accounts. She worked for months to get the company to figure out how to help her, and then she died the day she was supposed to get the fraud affidavit back to the company (before signing it, of course).
I dealt with Chase on the issue. Then I dealt with the collection agency. Then, I dealt with the collection lawyers. It was only when I dealt with the lawyers that I got the matter taken care of.
Actually he has to get the documents to chase asap. Reporting a card lost or stolen only deactivates the stolen card, which is what happened when he called. In order to proceed with fraud the proper paper work needs to be filled out, which he neglected. You need to be on the ball with these things.
Note that it says the $3000 had been charged BEFORE he reported it as stolen.
We don't know how long he waited before reporting it. I believe you have a 24-hour window, but we don't know if he met that deadline.
People talk about that $50 limit so much that folks start to think of it as a golden shield. "I know the charge is fraud, so I don't have to pay." It's a little more complicated than that, as our poor Brandon has found out. Instead of blaming the bank, we should be using this as a learning opportunity.
I need to clarify my post. You do have to cooperate with the credit card company to get them the information (a/k/a fraud affidavit). I was reacting to the whole trigger event concept, not the obligation to actually file an affidavit.
What may seem like an unreasonable delay to some people here doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me, however (as long as a few weeks to the writer doesn't translate to a few months).
Of course, we don't know what the real problem is here, because Chase's callback number is never manned.
@erratapage: part of "making the report" is signing affadavits that attest to the fraud. So no, you're not "off the hook" as soon as you call in and say "hey - my card's stolen. K, thanks bye."
This guy waited way too long to sign paperwork that the bank expediently sent to his attention, then began ignoring phone calls because he "didn't have time to deal with the situation.".
@erratapage: I never had any problem with the callback number. They straightened everything out with my fraud report within a week, including issuing the new card, investigating the fraud, sending the affidavit, and erasing the charge.
I don't know the relevant US laws and haven't got a copy of the relevant Chase card agreement, but if it's anything like my credit cards then you are liable for a max of $50 charged to a stolen card done AFTER you report the card stolen. And the paperwork required is to finalise write-off of any charges done AFTER you reported the card stolen (card deactivation isn't immediate when you phone in to report a stolen card. For example, some EFTPOS machines can work offline on occasion and send transaction data in batches when a connection is available.)
In any case, the $3000 charge was made BEFORE the card was reported stolen. Unless the police report provided some evidence that that particular charge was not done by the cardholder, I think he'd still be liable for that charge. Being slack about the paperwork and following up just made things harder for himself.
I think Chase is perfectly reasonable to insist on the paperwork and timeframes being enforced. They'd have to be concerned about cardholder fraud, and $3000 is too much money to just write off without any paperwork.
@Falconfire:
I'm not usually one to point out spelling or grammar errors. I regularly make them myself. However, it kind of made my head hurt trying to figure out that you meant you're instead of your, were instead of where, and form instead of forum. At least the random capitalization of Fax was amusing.
I had a chase card for a few years - I had a new card sent to me which I authorized over the phone and went to use it that night at dinner and it was declined.
When I called chase they told me after the card was activated someone called in and tried to transfer funds from a phone number chase had flagged - that if any calls came from that phone number and tried to access the account balance then they block the card and send you a new number. This happened 3 times before I just closed to account.
Chase made it sound like it was my fault for canceling and not keeping my cc number private!
Follow the link to the Clark Howard page.... You will find the following statement (emphasis added):
Business Week discovered that Capital One, Bank of America, Chase and Discover are ignoring these bankruptcy laws -- by accident or on purpose -- and illegally selling debts to collection agencies so they can go after you.
Seriously. Is this guy so busy that he couldn't be bothered to do anything in a timely manner? Or be bothered to keep track of what was going on or anything. Sorry, but this is mostly his fault, just a little bit of douchebaggery from Chase.
@kc2idf:
First off, how is that quote even reasonably relevant to the story at hand? It has to do with bankruptcy, not fraud.
Second, I don't see how this is even close to Chase's fault. The guy was too "busy" to be bothered with turning in the required paperwork in even close to a reasonable amount of time. At some point, Chase has to say "Sorry" and move on to other things. I don't understand why the Consumerist is standing up for this guy, it's clear he had little interest in resolving the matter in a timely fashion. Perhaps next time he'll get his priorities in line and deal with things a bit more quickly, especially those concerning $3k.
@kc2idf: That is not even remotely relevant to this post. It's about bankruptcy. This post is about fraudulent activity.
Just as speaking directly with the CCS rep got you results on their end, you likely won't get traction from Chase until you get a human -- a real human, not a scripted phone droid -- on the line. You can tell them to review the account records, the fact that you were already collected on but the collection was stopped when you proved the fraud to them.
There ought to be a law against re-collection. I had an issue with my college when I owed tuition for my last semester. Eventually the collection agency offered me a settlement of 80 cents on the dollar. I eagerly took the offer and paid the total settlement amount. But then, a few months later, I started getting calls from a new collection agency -- for the difference of the original amount minus the settlement. I immediately called them back and told them the story and they took care of it.
Bottom line is, find a way to get a (real, independently thinking) human on the phone at Chase.
Errr.... I go to Mexico all the time. Where the heck did they mug you????
Just To clarify, I am Brendon, and I had to wait until I got back into the country to fill out the paperwork. I did it in a timely manner as far as I am concerned, about 3 days after I got back from my trip.
Chase then said they never received the documents, that were sent certified mail. I had receipt in my hand that they were delivered and signed for.
I'm sorry I lagged in resending them, but the first time they were sent and I had proof they were received should have sufficed.
Even if this guy has a litte of my simpathy, he should have followed up with the bank ASAP. I work in mexico and know that filing a report can be an extreme hassle, but once you have the report number and you report it to the bank it stops being your problem (in general terms).
The main problem is tring to get your documents from the embassy or consulate. Thank god my office is about five block away from the consulate general in Guadalajara.
Just to clarify, I had to wait until I returned from Mexico to file the paperwork and feel I did that in a timely manner. I sent the paperwork certified mail and had return receipt to prove they had received the documents. Then they claimed they lost it.
Yes, I lagged on resending the paperwork, but the fact remains that I did originally send it about 3 days after I got back from my trip.
In addition, I did not ignore the calls at first, I sope with the reps and explained to them the situation. Then when my account got kicked up to fraud, Norm the fraud manager on my case, never returned calls.
Also, I reported the Card stolen about 4 hours after the mugging happened.
You have obligations as a card holder under your agreement with your bank. If you are going to claim fraud you must live up to those obligations. I would take less than an hour (probably much less) to complete the fraud affidavit and send it back. No fault on Chase here. Shame on the consumer.
Another story of someone just ignoring the calls from the bank. They're calling you for a reason. If you know these calls are about thousands of dollars of supposed debt, DON'T IGNORE THE CALLS! Sure, it may be a pain to deal with them, but ignoring the calls are just going to make things worse.
Am I the only one who's impressed that the collection agency bounced the debt back to Chase with no argument?
From everything I hear about those outfits, I would have expected them to ignore his explanation and documents and just keep calling. Or sell it to another collection agency, of course.
I could be wrong, but according to the FTC, you are not liable for fraudulent charges on your credit card, in excess of $50. That's not $50 after you report the card stolen. That's $50 period, per card.
And according to the Lectric Law library -
As a general rule, a cardholder is not liable for unauthorized use.
There is no liability for unauthorized use of a credit card, except
where the card is an "accepted credit card" then liability is not in
excess of $50.00 and $50.00 is due only when and if: (1) the issuer
provided the cardholder with adequate notice of the limited liability;
(2) the issuer provided the cardholder with a description of means by
which the issuer may be notified of the loss or theft of the activated
card; (3) unauthorized use occurred before the card issuer had been
notified that the cardholder no longer possessed the card or template;
and (4) the issuer provided a method whereby the user of such card can
be identified as a person authorized to use the charge template.
@jblake1: wrong. yes he maybe should have sent in ASAP but he stated, after he sent in the paperwork that it was still sent to a collections agency, and they are still hitting him up for the debt. this is wrong.
As far as I can tell, unless we aren't getting the whole story here, he is perfectly within the time limits to report fraud if he sent it within a "few weeks". The Fair Credit Billing Act in federal law limits your liability to $50 if you report the fraud in writing within 60 days of receiving the first account statement containing the fraudulent transaction. From the description he gives, it sounds like he is well within that time limit. I'm sure Chase would have liked for him to mail it back right away, but he loses no legal rights by waiting a while as long as it's within the 60 days. The article writeup is right if the information we're being given is correct. His liability should be limited to $50. If Chase doesn't follow the proper procedures, sue. You're entitled to statutory damages under the FCBA.
@babaki: But the problem is that in the article, it's never mentioned that he verified that Chase got the paperwork. The article says the calls from Chase stopped, and he assumed that mean the paperwork was received (in time). But what may have happened is that they gave up on him sending in the paper work and assumed they weren't going to keep bugging him over it. After a certain period of time, it's not worth the effort to keep calling him for it.
He should have sent in the paper work, waited a couple days, and then verified that everything was OK.
@bonzombiekitty: He says he sent it certified mail along with a copy of the police report within the time limit. That means he DID have verification that they received it. The certified mail confirmation of delivery to Chase is all the legal proof he needs. Anything more than that is Chase's problem if they lost track of it. Even his second mailing of the documents appears to be within the 60 days of his receipt of the statement, though we can't be sure of that from the description. Remember, the clock on the time limit you have under the law does NOT start ticking when you report the fraud by phone to Chase. It doesn't start until you actually get the statement with the fraudulent transaction on it.
@Falcon.....You actually timed how long it took to fill out your paperwork? Why?
@bonzombiekitty: "I completed it and sent it certified mail along with a copy of the police report, the certified mail was delivered and signed for"
@bonzombiekitty: Looks like he did try to call but never got through to anyone. He specifically said that he left multiple messages for the person handling his case, with no response.
Oh, and he sent the paperwork certified mail and it was signed for, so he knows they got it.
Geez, even when the victim does everything right they still get skewered here.
@jblake1: Uh, he did (1) call and repeatedly try to contact his case handler, and (2) sent the paperwork, by certified mail, and knows it was signed for.
@FatLynn: A coworker of mine had her purse stolen and reported it the same day as soon as she was sure (I helped her look for it, and we didn't take long at all). She still didn't beat the thieves to buying gas on her card.
But since she had not purchased it, she didn't have to pay.
Banks KNOW that thieves are too damn fast these days. Any bank that sticks you with scam charges even if they're posted first will rapidly lose business, so they won't do that.
@Falconfire: This was in Mexico, and he also sent in the police report. It takes a bit of time to get that. Nevertheless, they got it and signed for it, so they have the paperwork in hand.
Yet, on BlameTheVictimist, it's STILL his fault...
Step 1: A guy gets mugged and has his credit card stolen, reports it stolen almost immediately, fills out and returns the necessary paperwork within a reasonable time, sends it certified mail so that he gets confirmation delivery, receives confirmation delivery.
Step 2: Chase loses the paperwork and completely bungles the case afterwards by not answering when he calls and not having a human call him back when he leaves a message.
Consumerist readers' conclusion: The guy's at fault for being more concerned with how he was going to get home than with holding Chase's hand through this process. What are you people who think this way doing on a consumer's rights website? Are you all getting paid by Chase to come in here and post these opinions? You're being more strict on the guy than the US law is, and the US law is not known to favor people over corporations.
Please go away.
I have 3 credit cards, one of them (platinum card) I reported stolen and cancelled it. If anyone mugs me or takes the wallet and tries to use the card at a store, it will show up as stolen and (hopefully) they'd get the guy. Slim chance of it happening, but who knows.
@jeffjohnvol: Yeah, those brave cashiers have a set of handcuffs and carry guns just waiting to catch your future mugger.
"I waited a few weeks before completing the paperwork" You had no time in half of a month to complete the paperwork? How much paperwork was it?