Homeowners Fined $347,000 For Trimming Trees Without A Permit
The Glendale Fire Department sent Ann and Mike Collard a notice informing them that the branches on some of their trees were too close to their home. The notice ordered the couple to maintain 5 feet of "vertical clearance between roof surfaces and overhanging portions of trees."
They hired a tree trimmer, paid him $3,000 to trim the trees, and were assured that no permit was necessary.
Not so.
From the LA Times:
On the third day of the three-day job, the city's urban forester happened to be in the neighborhood, and noticed the tree trimmer doing his thing.After hiring a lawyer and getting the press involved, the Collards are off the hook "for now," but will still have to pay a fine of some kind."She saw what was happening and said, 'Stop! Cease and desist!' " says Mike, a work-at-home software and computer guy.
Glendale has an indigenous tree protection ordinance that dates to the 1980s. It was enacted to discourage developers and homeowners from bulldozing or hacking trees willy-nilly. Earlier this year, because of citizen complaints that native trees were still being ruined, the city approved more restrictions and bigger fines.
None of which the Collards knew about.
They now admit that had they read the Fire Department notice closely, they would have seen in small print that a free permit was required to trim oak and sycamore branches larger than 1 inch in diameter. But it was an understandable oversight.
A week after her first visit, the urban forester was back, telling the Collards an arborist would come by soon to assess the damage. The Collards recall being told they might want to hire an attorney.
"That's when we realized the gravity of the situation," says Ann. "I was pregnant and crying, but it didn't help."
In August, the Collards got a visit from the arborist. She looked at the trees, took measurements and jotted down notes.
How bad could it be? The Collards began to anticipate the possibility of a fine, but it wasn't as if the trees were mauled. They looked pretty good, in fact.
Finally, on Oct. 1, a letter arrived. It was from Glendale's Neighborhood Services administrator.
"Dear Owner," it began. "The city of Glendale is committed to maintaining a community with quality streetscapes that include the care and well-being of protected indigenous trees."
The letter informed them they had improperly pruned 13 trees, some of them on city property because they were near the street, and some on their own property. The fine was listed on Page 2, where the Collards were informed they would be charged "two times the value of the damaged tree(s)."
"Total: $347,600."
"I about passed out," says Ann.
The weird part is that they aren't the only ones who have been fined a ridiculous amount of money for trimming trees in Glendale.
"I was fined $175,000 for cutting two sycamores after my architect contacted the city and was warned not to touch oak trees," says John Oppenheim, a registered nurse and single dad. "I am not a criminal, though because of a string of bad advice, I did make a mistake."Ann's reaction to the fine mirrors our own thoughts about the matter:
Ann points out that White House aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby was fined $250,000 for perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to investigators in the case of CIA operative Valerie Plame. She adds, with appropriate exasperation, that Glendale Memorial Hospital drew a $25,000 fine in October for a medical error in which "a person was killed."Yeah! It's not like they were caught videotaping the Jets' top secret defensive signals or something.
Out on a limb over trimming fiasco [LA Times] (Thanks, Cesar!)
(Photo:Gary Friedman / Los Angeles Times)
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Comments:
I wish fines like this were imposed on people who beat their children or abuse the elderly and whatnot. I fully support protecting the environment, but that is just insane and uncalled for. Where would the money from the fines go to anyway?
That amount is clearly ludicrous, but who assured them that no permit was necessary? The contractor they hired? You should NEVER trust contractors for stuff like this - you should always contact the city directly. Also, what kind of trees are we talking here if the bill was $3000?!
Why would anyone live in such a communist state? They hug trees, dont let you cut down dead ones, and then wonder why the whole place goes up like a tinderbox! Seriously, what freedoms do californians have?
This seems like something straight out of "Brazil". Worrisome.
Note to self: don't move to Cali.
That sucks, but the old saying "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" still applies. That fine is crap though.
quit over reacting. For crying out loud.
It's the city of Glendale that are idiots.
I love the way you make it sound like the sky was falling.
I live in CA. Damn proud of it too.
As much as you want to bash the whole state, this is a freaking ISOLATED problem. Get a grip.
this is such bullshit I want to scream. God, I hate bureaucracy. for the trees on their property, they should be able to gut them if they wanted to. FUCK that noise. Sorry, but little hitlers like that "urban forester" make me sick.
Damn, that sucks. A vivid example of the phrases "read the fine print" and "ignorance is no excuse".
rant
What kind of idiot can look at a cut tree and say that's worth a 1/3 of a million dollars?!? Not even in California with the insane real-estate market can this be rational.
/rant
Sounds like the city has a stick up its ass. Complete BS, especially since the city fire department told them to trim the trees in the first place. I am curious how much trimming the city would have allowed if the Collards sent in the free permit to begin with. (Sure, you can cut down the branches to bring them within fire code since you filled out this free permit. Oh, wait, no permit? You need owe us $347,000.)
Also, the tree trimmer didn't know about the permit/fines?
"The Collards asked if a permit was necessary. Not at all, said the licensed trimmer, who told the Collards he'd done lots of work in Glendale."
I hope this ends well.
FYI....
City Councilman John Drayman told the LA TIMES the Collards shouldn't have to pay a nickel. Councilman Frank Quintero called the whole thing a fiasco and an embarrassment.
City Atty. Scott Howard had decided to drop the case against the Collards.
This could be quite a scam for the community. Let the fire company go out and check tree clearance. Then order the homeowner to cut the trees. Then send out the forrester when the trees are cut and hope the homeowner missed something. = profit.
I am glad I do not live in CA.
@warf0x0r: Unless you really like the trees.
Seriously, hey Glendale, I got some oaks and some other trees I could let go for probably under a quarter mil or so. You just come and get 'em.
Isn't it wonderful when the gubbamint comes and tells you what you can do on your own property?
Hey, my 1st submission to you guys, and it got posted really quick. Great job!
What I especially liked was the comparison to Scooter Libby. Hmmm... endangering a CIA agent's life is punished less than trimming some trees? C'mon now.
How heartwarming. People calling down fire and brimstone on my home because one city did something inane. I'll go call my friends who lost their home in the recent fire and tell them it's okay because our state, and thus they, deserved it.
Seriously. Comments like that make me glad I live in California. ;)
In regards to the actual post, it sounds like a case of public shame causing those guilty of the outrage to back down. Good!
The fine was out of proportion with the offense here. The bottom line is that they were ordered by the city to trim the trees. The problem wasn't that the recklessly destroyed trees, the kind of offense that the fines were meant to address. That CAN be a problem. I know here in Boston there was an issue when a developer ripped out the trees on a landmark property without permission. The remedy here is pretty toothless and I could see a stiff fine being a useful deterrent to people breaking laws like this. BUT, that's not the issue here. These people just didn't get a permit that would have been free. They were only doing what the city required, so for the city to fine them for that "damage" is unjustified. They should probably be fined, but nowhere near $347,000. Probably not even near the $3,000 they spent on the tree trimming. Its simply the wrong fine for the crime.
It sounds like the city of Glendale is friends with the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency! Those guys are bastards!
@C2D: What a sweet thing to say, in light of the fact that huge chunks of the state HAVE recently gone up in flames and hundreds of people lost everything they owned. Guess they deserved it for living in CA?
I love how someone who doesn't live here will read ONE stupid story from ONE stupid little town and crudely write off the entire state...the state which is, incidentally, the most populous in the country. We must all just be CRAZY!
While they should have read the fine print to begin with, the city's fine and heavy handedness was absurb. Save the big stuff for real criminals and quit using resources to harass normal people.
While I whole-heartedly agree that the fine is absolutely ridiculous, if they needed a permit and they didn't get a permit, they should incur some sort of fine/penalty. Particularly since it was stated ON the notice from the fire department, they shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed. It's well within the power of the municipality to regulate these kind of things, and their ignorance of the local law is no excuse. A fine of $350k is simply insane. Personally, I'd say something along the lines of say $250 would be more appropriate for such a technical violation of the law. From the way the abstract of the article reads, they didn't chop down the trees, they trimmed them. From the reading of the summary of the law, it seems it's designed to prevent the complete removal of trees. Fine them a little more than a parking ticket and call it good.
But she was pregnant and she was crying! Oh wait, that should have nothing to do with it. Never mind.
Glendale has over 10,000 illegal aliens from Mexico living there and nothing is done about it. Meanwhile, the city wants to issue fines over a few tree branches.
@C2D: On behalf of the state of California, I'll just say that we're also glad that you don't live here.
@spryte: I thought being crazy was one of the requirements to live here. Dammit ... looks like I was misled there.
@ironchef: But, but getting a grip would be too hard! Much easier to bitch and moan, apparently.
@MoCo:
I wonder what would happen if they kicked out those 10,000 illegal aliens. Who would do the jobs that other people don't want to do? While it's a bit of a generalization I know, and not a pretty one, but illegal immigrants tend to take jobs in the construction, sanitation, and food service industry that are necessary for the success of a community. If you suddenly deport 10,000 residents of a community, it would collapse on itself. So, your statement is a bit ignorant, no?
That hits home because I just had my trees and bushes trimmed today! What a terrible surprise. Sounds like the city of Glendale needs something else to worry about. Glad it sounds like it's being solved, good luck!
BTW, California doesn't suck any more than any other state, it's just the other 49 have different ways of sucking. I know several people who left CA in the last few years, and all of them have either returned, or want to, so I think it's all in what you get used to. A handful of cities might have weird laws like that, but the other 99% rarely gets the same press. But generalizing is a lot easier, isn't it?
If you want the government to tell you how to live, what to do, and how to do it, vote for a Democrat. Watch out for liberals. They're the death of freedom. California voters get what they deserve.
wow... mind... blown...
hey c2d, fill in the blanks: f__k off. What happened to this couple is an example of the law working negatively but if it weren't for strict laws developers could go nuts cutting things down. I am a homeowner in Los Angeles which is much better than being a home owner in Michigan. My property still has value and my property tax is low. While the rest of the country may go through recessions, I'm lucky that the economy in LA will still go strong.
@atommike: California's Governor is a Republican.
@Pylon83: Everyone always comes up with that argument about why we should just allow it. "They do jobs no one else wants to do." OK, first, who did the jobs before they came? Sure there might have always been some (depending on where you live in the US), but it seems like there has been a heavy influx in the last 10 years. Second, if one assumes that if we just deport them all, the economy will collapse- is that a reason to condone the illegal behavior? Should we just turn a blind eye to the problem?
With all that said people might think I am a bigot or whatever and just want to get rid of them all. On the contrary, the US was built as a melting pot of people and I have no problem accepting people from other countries- provided that they do it legally. They should be on the roles, pay the correct amount of taxes, learn to speak English, etc. Just like most of the immigrants to the US have done for the past 200 plus years. If they aren't getting their fair share of visas (or whatever it takes to legally enter the US), then the various groups should lobby Congress or whatever agency to do something about it. Don't just say "it is too hard, so I am just going to break the law".
I always thought FL was the most screwed up state in the country b/c it seemed as though every other article about some whacked out crime came from there.
I have now been convinced. CA is clearly the most focked up state in the entire US of A. I'm sorry, but you people are a joke.
@Pylon83:Thats not true. There are lots of union construction workers that would disagree with you as well.
@Pylon83: No your statement is ignorant. The community would NOT collapse and to suggest that is just a bit retarded. Criminal aliens do take jobs, BUT they don't take the jobs Americans don't want, they take the jobs that Americans WON'T do for the price.
Criminal aliens move out and American construction workers, service workers, etc. will step in, you will just have to pay them more.
Face it, you want your shit done for cheap. You willingly exploit criminal aliens for your own benefit.
A local city has similarly stringent tree trimming regulations. Last winter during a record wind storm a tree around 70ft tall fell onto a multistory condominium building crashing through a bedroom and destroying portions of the roof, walls and major damage inside the affected units.
There we are at 5:00pm with a landscape crew and crane called into get the tree off the building so that my crew could begin protecting the structure from the elements. We had to get the City arborist on the phone, email digital pics from the site (he was far to busy to actually visit being the end of the work day and all) to determine that the tree could be removed.
@Catperson: ESPECIALLY since it was on the notice from the fire department. Fine print or not, it was there.
For those of you bashing California by saying you'll never move here, good - it's too damn crowded already.
That urban forester bureaucrat has to keep her worthless job by drinking the blood of her town's constituents. It's a sickening dog eat dog world.
That sucks.
I think this violates these folks' 8th amendment rights that states:
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
I guess glendale CA forgot to read that one. 347 grand for trimming some trees without a permit is DEFINITELY an excessive fine considering other acts classified as criminal can carry a lesser fine. Like DUI for instance. Driving drunk is much more dangerous than trimming a couple goddamn trees on orders from the fire department.
Makes me glad I live in an area where trees AREN'T indigenous.
@davebg5: Don't let Tim Henson of Distorted View hear you say that. That's a cornerstone of his podcast.
Proving once again that municipal governments have become an albatross upon our freedoms.
@RottNDude: Amen. I LOVE it when people slam California. Especially LA...where I live and can't afford a house. Keeps my irrational hope that we'll someday become Detroit alive.
It would be nice to see before and after pictures. How much of the trees got cut? How many trees? I've seen some places practically denuded of trees. I would never move to those neighborhoods because it's not only wrong to cut down that many trees, but it's just stupid from an economic/energy point of view.
Update: The Collards' fine has been rescinded. Two of the city council members stood up and brought some common sense into the matter by rescinding all fines given to four residents. This didn't happen without a fight though. It took the top-rated LA talk show John and Ken on KFI to get their listeners to hammer on the city council members. As of this afternoon the official word was that the Collards wouldn't have to pay the 340K fine but could possibly pay something. Turns out the Mayor of Glendale, Ara Najarian still wanted a bit of blood for this transgression, $10,000. John and Ken received an email from John Drayman, the only official that would even discuss the matter in public that stated, "THE COLLARDS WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY THE FINE." While comforting in that their finances save for the $1600 they have spent on a lawyer, no word has been said on any criminal matters. Likely nothing will be done, but the mayor seems to want some retribution for this "crime".
Glendale is pretty screwy, and does not represent the whole of California.
@spryte: Beautifully put.
@badgeman46: I'll take that as a compliment. I don't believe it's a communist state, but I'd be happy if it went in that direction. Better to have no state than the police state that the US is heading for.
Dead Trees: Dead trees are allowed to be cut down with a permit, and most living ones as well. It's when you suddenly decide to start hacking away at public property (trees) that people get pissed. It's ridiculously easy to kill a tree by improperly trimming it, or at the very least to badly injure it. Plus, if a branch falls and kills someone walking below, who's getting sued? The city. Not the idiot illegally trimming. When you consider the millions the city could have to pay out, $347,000 is nothing. In my gut I still think it's excessive, but I can see some of the reasoning behind the fine.
Fires: Southern California has a Mediterranean climate, which means many native plants secrete oils to promote fire. It's part of their natural cycle. Look at Portugal where wildfires consume hundreds of thousand of acres on almost a yearly basis.
In summary: get a clue.
@EtherealStrife: On second read the fine is complete bs. They still should have known their local ordinances, but I was under the impression the "their" referred to city not homeowner's trees. LA, please do something about your cousin. He's out of line, and it's your county.
Only people who don't live in, or have any real connection (friends, family) to California call it "Cali." I'll say it for the other 32,000,000 residents - we're glad you don't live here, idiot.
The town of Glendale is a little wacky. I don't 100% know the details, but I know some years back they passed or were trying to pass some type of ordinance that said you couldn't have any type of fencing in your front yard because it detracted from the appearance of unity throughout the town. They wanted to all appear as one big happy family. I lived in Burbank, the neighboring town, at the time and I recall saying something to the effect that they were gonna have a hell of a liability lawsuit from the first family that took down their fence and got robbed, or worse.
@davebg5: Really? You're sorry? Gee, I'm so glad you prefaced your idiotic generalization with an apology, otherwise my feelings may have been hurt.
@froggmann: John and Ken are the bomb. They are the only guys on the radio here who actually give a shit about California.
@jaya9581: The way I heard it was that they wanted the whole town to resemble a park, with nothing dividing the enless expanse of lawns. Of course there were those who saw it as a slam against Armenians, whose culture puts a premium on privacy. Who knows.
Yet *another* reason I'm glad I don't live in Cali. I would not shed a tear if the state went up in flames.