Here’s a scary thought: What if you have health insurance and still get stuck with a million dollar hospital bill? That’s what happened to Jim Dawson after a staph infection spread throughout his body.
From the WSJ Health Blog:
Part of the problem is that insurance caps — the maximum amount of a patient’s medical bill insurers will pay — haven’t been keeping pace with rising costs. The story says the average cap is $1 million per person, the same as it was in the 1970s.
Dawson’s cap was $1.5 million but after a staph infection spread throughout his body, he was still stuck with a $1.2 million bill from California Pacific Medical Center. He and was wife were outraged to learn about the hospital’s marking up of items.
“For instance, CPMC charged Mr. Dawson $791 for stockings designed to improve blood circulation,” the story says. “The same pair can be purchased on the Internet for as little as $12.”
Even more perplexing was the fact the Dawsons were told it would cost $1,030 just to get an itemized copy of Jim Dawson’s bill. The medical center was nice enough to send a letter — free of charge — seeking donations to the hospital.
Of course once the Wall Street Journal called to inquire about the bill, Mr. Dawson suddenly qualified for assistance under the hospital’s charity and they wrote off his entire bill.
Even With Insurance, Hospital Stay Can Cost a Million [WSJ Health Blog]
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@spinachdip: I understand scientific method, schools don’t. Read a science text book from any middle or highschool and they show theory as fact.
For anyone that would like to bash universal healthcare please read the following report:
[assets.opencrs.com]
It compares the cost of healthcare in the US with the cost in 29 other OECD countries. It also compares healthcare outcomes. The short and sweet of it is that in the US we spend roughly 15% of our GDP on healthcare. The median of all countries in the study is 8.8%. Yes that’s right we spend nearly 2X as much as a percentage of GDP than the average industrialized country.
It also compares healthcare outcomes across different treatment patterns and guess what the US is either average or below average in the results in almost all cases. So in the US we spend twice as much to get what would be considered average service. If this doesn’t scream it’s broken to you, I have no idea what will.
The issue with healthcare is that it is not a consumer good or service. It is complex, there is a large information assymetry and no one wants to take chances that they are wrong or cheaping out if they don’t have to. This distorts the choices that people make when consuming healthcare. I’m not saying people can’t be responsible for their own healthcare, I’m saying that it’s far too easy for people to be taken advantage of and the normal form of recourse a consumer has to express displeasure (vote with your wallet) really doesn’t exist. There is little evidence that a nationalized system of healthcare leads to either more expense or poorer health outcomes. In fact the evidence is to the contrary. Free markets are good for allocating goods and services that market participants can readily value. Healthcare is not one of those and is therefore a poor free market good.
@trollkiller:
Just to make it clear we spend more in absolute dollars per person and more as a percentage of per capita GDP by a factor of almost 2 than the average industrialized country. Seriously.
@trollkiller: We spend almost double as much per capita. And actually even our government spends more per citizen on healthcare than does the government of Canada. And yet we get way less for it. I’m going by the WHO figures, which you can easily find via Google. We’re not getting our money’s worth. Our system is broken and inefficient. We have the worst of both a government-run and privatized system.
@Indecision: I don’t know where you live, but I would suggest that you take population density into account before you compare specific medical procedures. I’m guessing you live in a well populated city in America? Newfoundland is about 400000km. sq. and has about half a million people. Where as most cities in the USA have about the same (or much larger) population in a much smaller space. The wait time in this situation probably occurred due to making travel arrangements and appointments. I’m sure if the guy wanted to travel to Toronto he could have had an MRI within a couple of hours of getting to the city.
@trollkiller: Or maybe Canada doesn’t wander the globe with a huge army like the school bully pissing people off. Even so, the UK has excellent healthcare and has still managed to keep a strong military. Maybe research next time before posting?
@mr_jrdn: Canada does not have to police the world, we do. Hey someone has to do it, might as well be us.
@trollkiller: Who said the world needed policing?
@ad8bc: Ha, ha! Only option… Look at Afghanistan. In 1970, for Soviet Union. And Vietnam, for USA. Skip to 2007. USA has Afghanistan AND Iraq (and already future Albania – for terrorrism). And Russia has Chechnya. Some governments never learn.
There is always a choice, and violence never solved much. This money is better invested in citizens of it’s country. Charity should begin at home. Once own problems fixed, lead by example. Not by sending kids to war.
@trollkiller: More per person.
@mr_jrdn:If you enjoy your way of life I hope that you would say the world needs policing.
We have interests all over the globe, things that directly and indirectly effect our physical and economic security. We sat back during the first part of WWII as an isolationist country and it cost us a lot more good men to overcome what could have been done earlier.
Being proactive is always better than being reactive.
@mr_jrdn: Canada just content to rebuild whatever US forces blew up.
@trollkiller: And world does not want USA policing. USA screwed up so many times during policing, that no one trusts them any more. It’s like government repeats same mistakes over and over again. Hypocrisy seems at its peak now, politicians ignore allies and back stab old partners.
And every time ”policed” countries turn against US. Look at Afghanistan, that’s becoming an opium platform for the world, or Vietnam, that still dislikes US military. And look historically : talibans would never have seized power, if it wasn’t for US intervention on monarchy reigning in the region.
WHY won’t anyone DO something about this type of nonsense!?!?!
@Indecision: Meanwhile, if the same thing happened to me (and I were a man…) I would simply have to have a farewell party for myself, since I have no insurance and can’t afford any of the procedures you noted in your post.
I’d rather have SOME type of treatment in a month than no treatment at all.
“We live in a great country that has got the best healthcare system in the world, and we need to keep it that way.”
(George Bush, June 2003)
@chouchou: I would continue the argument but I think we have thread jacked enough. Feel free to contact me.
Expensive and divisive: how America is losing patience with a failing system
If link fails, story here: [www.guardian.co.uk],,2167671,00.html
@Elviswasntmyhero: both links failed
@trollkiller: Agreed, foreign policy and military budgets are getting pretty far off topic.
@trollkiller: I actually go to a private school. And I go to school in China, not America. Classes are mostly taught in English, though. So, in total, it’s a different situation than in America. My economics teacher’s still an American immigrant to Canada, though (with things as they are now it’s no wonder why he did it).
@jamar0303: Are you Chinese? I will admit I have not seen Sicko as I am not a Michael Moore fan. The last Michael Moore movie I saw was full of statistical junk. Turned me off to seeing anything by him.
@trollkiller: Good grief. Trust me, if you think that’s a good argument, you not only need science classes, you need English classes.
@trollkiller: I am, but I have a US passport. I’m considering changing it to Canadian or NZ (for reasons not related to my in-class viewing of Sicko- watching Sicko in Economics class just cemented my resolve).
@morganlh85: Because people refuse to accept a more effective AND cost efficient system because it’s OMG SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!!!!
In this country, moreso than other industrialized nations, ideology and cult of personality trump pragmatism and human decency.
@Jon Parker: Good grief. Trust me, if you think that’s a good argument, you not only need science classes, you need English classes.
Not sure what post of mine you are replying to but if it is the evolution post I will explain further.
If you pick up a middle school or high school science book you will see that evolution theory evidence is presented as fact.
Let me give you an example. When I went to school it was taught as FACT that Neanderthal man was a human ancestor. It was taught that we evolved from them. Now evidence suggests that human and Neanderthal lived at the same time in the same areas. Evidence now suggests that we did not evolve from them. What we were taught was WRONG. We were also taught as FACT that dinosaurs were cold blooded reptiles. Evidence now points to some being warm blooded and avian.
My son is like most 10 year olds, he loves dinosaurs. He can give you more information then you would ever care to listen to. He also understands the difference between a proved fact and a theory. When he tells you about a certain dinosaur he will preface his information with “scientists BELIEVE” or “evidence suggests”.
Hopefully you now understand what I mean by evolution facts being disproved or changed. My children are taught not to take unproved scientific “facts” as facts. They are taught to reason and to understand that all the evidence is not in, so today’s “fact” may not be tomorrow’s “fact”.
If you have anymore comments on evolution or home school feel free to contact me. I won’t answer anymore in this thread because it is off topic.
@spinachdip: What can you say? Americans are an independent people. We don’t like Govt. running our lives AND we don’t like charity. Regular Americans look down on welfare. Socialized medicine is welfare as far as middle America is concerned.
@trollkiller: Thanks for illustrating what I mean by ideology trumping common sense.
Apparently, people of middle America are so independent minded that they’re willing to pay more than citizens of any other industrialized nation, both through taxes and to the private sector, for third-world standard service that they may not even receive.
Yet, according to you, these independent minded people who are willing to sacrifice their own health even when affordable care is demonstrably attainable, have no problem ignoring their “I don’t want no gumbint in’erferin’ with mah life” mantra when they drive on socialized roads, have their streets protected by a government funded police force, depend on pinko commie fire fighters, see criminals tried by a government-backed court system, and wash their dishes with government water. So you’re saying that they’re not only short-sighted ideologs, they’re also hypocrites.
Though of course, you could argue that all the stuff I listed are truly essential services that would be grossly inadequate or inefficient when left to private enterprises. You know, like healthcare.
@spinachdip: I would argue the things you listed are local and state government not federal.
In the areas that the Federal govt. does provide with refunding, it uses the money as a sword to make sure the states fall in lock step with the Federal govt.
Example would be highway funds, lower the speed limit or no money for you. Speed limits, drinking age etc. are State issues, not Federal issues.
(refunding is NOT a typo, the government does not provide any funding, it redistributes tax money received from its citizens)
I would say they are long-sighted ideologs. The Federal government exists to do the things that state and local govt. can’t do. Things like provide for a common defense, treaties, print money, etc. [www.usconstitution.net] You may argue that socialized health care falls under the “promote the general welfare” but that was not the meaning of welfare when the Constitution was written.
Unlike most countries, our United States of America consists of independent states, each with its own constitution. The states are not puppet governments but independent governments that answer to the people in their states. (at least that is how it is supposed to work)
If the people of my State feel the need for socialized health care then we can approach our representatives for it. I see no great rush by the states to move to socialized health care. That tells me the people do not want it.
Even if you disagree with it, the people own the government not the other way around. The Federal govt. needs to keep its dirty paws out of what is clearly a state issue.
@trollkiller: I see we’re moving the goalposts now.
@spinachdip: Please explain.
@trollkiller:
It’s not that hard. You’re now making at an issue between federal and local government, not an issue that socialized medicine is welfare versus essential service.
Fun fact for you, since you list “printing money” as one of the functions of the federal government, and you exclude medical service from the framers’ thoughts when the constitution was written. The federal government did not print money until 12 years after the civil war. It’s a true fact. Google the “Free Banking Era” for a cite.
@aaydemi:
Good, I’m a medical student as well. You’ve made an important point that malpractice insurance has led to defensive medicine and therein lies part of the problem. Yet, I would be hesitant to claim that this is the major reasons why health care costs are so high. Simply stated, insurance companies are run like businesses, even if the number of suits were to halve tomorrow, the insurance agencies would try to keep their premiums as high as competitively possible. Secondly, pharma and administrative costs take the biggest piece of the pie.
At one hospital I did my rounds, the doctors’ average cost (skill, labor) amounted to 11%, while hospital’s malpractice budget received 6%. Where did the other 81% go. Hint: around 60% went directly to pharma companies.
Furthermore, more hospitals in this country are going bankrupt than making enormous profits. Do a little research and ask around, see how your local hospital is doing.