Brandon writes:“In January 2007, I was traveling in Mexico and was mugged, having my wallet and passport stolen. By the time I got back to the hotel and began calling my credit card companies to cancel, the criminal had charged close to $3,000 on my CHASE Circuit City Visa card. I explained to CHASE that the charges were fraud, and they sent me a fraudulent charge affidavit to complete and have notarized. As I couldn’t take care of this until I returned from my trip, and had more important things like a passport to worry about, I waited a few weeks before completing the paperwork and during those weeks received about 2 calls a day from CHASE urging me to send the documents.”
I completed it and sent it certified mail along with a copy of the police report, the certified mail was delivered and signed for but the calls continued, apparently they never received it. About a month later when I finally had time, I made copies and resent everything to CHASE, finally the calls stopped.
I took this to mean that the documents had been received and that everything was taken care of, hardly the case.
I canceled the card as I never use it, so I no longer had access to the online payment system and could not check up on the balance, and so I let it go figuring everything had finally gone right.
About 3 months later I begin getting the same 2-3 calls a day from CHASE, this time demanding that I pay the $3,000 plus over $100.00 in interest and that my account is very past due.. The messages say to reach Norm at so-and-so extension as he is handling my case. I call, get voicemail, leave a message and never hear back about 3 times.
The calls keep coming and I finally give up, not having time to deal with the situation I begin hanging up every time I see the number on my caller ID.
Shortly after that, my account was referred to CCS collection agency for breach of contract, I was contacted by CCS agent Terry Orr who was actually very nice, explained the whole situation, listened to what I had to say, and told me to fax his office the same documents that I had mailed to CHASE months prior. After receiving the documents, I received a very friendly follow-up call saying that they had determined that the balance was fraud and would refer the case back to CHASE and they had no control over what chase would do with that ruling.
It has now been about two weeks and the 2-3x a day calls have resumed from CHASE again, what can I do in this situation, this is bordering on harassment as far as I’m concerned, haven’t a met a decent enough burden of proof that the charges were fraud.
Thank You,
Brendon L.
That just makes no sense. You called and reported the fraud the day of, and yet they’re still trying to collect. Under federal law, you have no responsibility for unauthorized charges after reporting loss or theft of a credit card. That you waited a few weeks to send in the papers doesn’t matter. Worst case scenario, your maximum liability is $50.
Have you sent them a “drop-dead” letter? Or a letter of dispute? Include the information in the preceding paragraph in your letter.
You could also try kicking it up to Chase executive customer service:
1-888-622-7547 – extension 4350
or
847-488-6833, or 888-622-7547 x 6833 – Jessica Pozehl
(Photo: Getty)
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@Buran:
While I feel like the certified mail does carry some weight, they notified him that it had been lost/misplaced/never received by the proper office. After the notified him of that, he was again under an obligation to re-submit the paperwork. When he chose to drag his feet in re-submitting, he shot himself in the foot. It’s not like Chase said, on the first phone call, we didn’t get your paperwork, your screwed. They gave him the opportunity to correct the situation, and when he did not protest, he basically assented to their request, placing the burden back on himself. Perhaps it would have been a better move to simply say “I already sent it, certified mail, and I have the receipt. I’m not sending it again”. But, he didn’t. He agreed to send it again, and thereby was obligated to re-submit it in a timely manner.
Further, I also feel like there is more to this story than we are getting. An exact timeline would be nice, particularly if we are expected to make an informed, objective decision as to whether Chase is really in the wrong here. I’d like to see one from the day the card got lost to the second submission of the paperwork.
@Pylon83: Certified mail doesn’t just carry “some weight”; it’s all the weight he needs, legally, to prove that he sent it by a certain date. He is under NO obligation to do anything else after that point in order to protect his rights. Otherwise credit card companies could just claim to “lose” every notice of dispute you sent them and never respond to any fraud complaints. It’s Chase’s problem after that to deal with the fraud complaint. If they still try to collect, he’s completely in his rights to sue them to get his credit report fixed and to collect damages.
Now you’re right, that’s assuming that the timeline we’ve been given is accurate. If his story is true, he’s totally in the clear legally. I have to assume it’s true given that that is all we have to go by. And it’s completely believable to me that Chase would screw up like this. Many of these companies are completely incompetent in following their own policies and the law.
If adequate notice was provided (as the FTC quote above seems to indicate is all that is necessary), i don’t understand why he would have to sign an affidavit? That doesn’t make any sense at all – the burden of proof has to be on Chase to prove or provide evidence to the contrary of the fraud claim. Chase has sent a similar request to me as well after a fraudulent transaction was caught (and immediately refunded) by a merchant (NOT Chase). I notified Chase immediately of the fraudulent transaction and ultimately there was a charge and immediate refund to my card. Why would I (or anyone for that matter) sign an affidavit without having a lawyer representing me review it? I don’t think that’s a reasonable request to make unless Chase can present evidence to contradict the fraud. Seems like law school 101 here, and I’m not even a lawyer! What am i missing here? Why are people saying this guy is at fault? I’ll definitely follow up with an update if Chase threatens me over not signing the affidavit they’ve sent me – it’s a ridiculous request by Chase and I’m simply not required to do it to not be held liable for the fraudulent charges (agreed though i should call them and tell them i’m not sending it rather than just ignore it).
@johnva:
I agree that it carries a lot of weight, however he assumed the obligation of re-sending it when he did not dispute the fact that they had not received it. Had he refused to go further after they “lost” it, he would be within his rights to do as you suggested. However, he did not. He chose to accept Chase’s version, and agreed to re-send the information, essentially under the guise that it had never been sent before. Basically, when he agreed, he started all over again. I think Chase would have a very valid defense in saying he assumed the responsibility to re-submit the information, he did not do so, and now he’s out of luck.
Just to clarify, I had to wait until I returned from Mexico to file the paperwork and feel I did that in a timely manner. I sent the paperwork certified mail and had return receipt to prove they had received the documents. Then they claimed they lost it.
Yes, I lagged on resending the paperwork, but the fact remains that I did originally send it about 3 days after I got back from my trip certified mail.
In addition, I did not ignore the calls at first, I spoke with the reps and explained to them the situation. Then when my account got kicked up to fraud, Norm the fraud manager on my case, never returned calls.
Also, I reported the Card stolen about 4 hours after the mugging happened.
@DallasDMD: More than likely it would be one of my kids, LOL. Like I said, I doubt they would ever catch someone. But maybe they’ll try the card and think they all have been reported stolen.
Time line:
-January 6th Mugged about 11:45pm
-Jan. 7th Police report filed with help of embassy 2am
-Jan. 7th 4am called and began reporting credit cards stolen
-Approx Jan. 16th Returned home, doc. were waiting
-Jan. 19th submitted docs. certified mail
-Approx Jan 28th, after follow up calls Chase never received my docs.
-Approx Feb. 20th, resent copies of the docs.
-Feb. 20 — May 1st, no contact by chase.
-Early May get a call from CCS about the collection
-Send in all paperwork to CCS mid May
-CCS dismisses the case Early June.
-July, Aug., september no contact
-October Case calls to explain that they have determine that fraud did not occur, they cannot find all the paper work. I explain that I dealt with this situation with CCS and they have sided with me. Norm tells me he will call me back and never does.
-Current – I am receiving 2-3 automated calls a day from CHASE and refuse to pick up.
@Pylon83: Where does it say in your contract that you have to re-submit? That’s right, it doesn’t. It just says that you must submit. He did. It’s just being nice to try to help them by sending it again. It was sent once. Legally, he can say “I sent it, and here is the proof” and leave it at that, and since it was filed (and obviously copied to keep a record of it as proof, as it was sent again to the collection agency to get them to shut up) that’s enough.
@Brendon: Sue for harassment if they are robocalling you after this was cleared up.
@Buran:
It doesn’t say it in the contract, but when he did not protest when they first lost them, he assumed the responsibility to re-send them. Once he says “Ok, I’ll re-send them”, he is on the hook to do it. He can’t back out at that point, or after the fact.
@Buran: Yep, and moreover it doesn’t matter what the contract says. Federal law says that submitting it in writing within 60 days is enough. BOTH his submissions of the documents appear to be within that time limit. The contract with the credit card company can’t override federal law (the FCBA). So it’s really irrelevant what Chase’s policies are. He’s met the requirements of the FCBA, so he’s covered under the law. If they don’t follow the procedures, he can sue them for statutory damages and to get the debt removed from his credit report.
@Pylon83: And he did, within the 60 days. So that objection is moot.
@johnva:
I would be curious to know whether he sent the second set certified mail as well. There is no mention of it. If he didn’t, and they say they were never received, then he did not submit them within 60 days. I imagine that part of the story may have been intentionally left out. He was informed by them within the 60 days that they had not been received, he agreed, and assumed the responsibility to re-submit. If he can’t prove he did that, he’s still screwed.
I wasn’t kidding. I really am wondering where you were mugged.
@Pylon83:
Even if your legal theory were true (which I don’t think it is), Chase would have to be able to PROVE that he “assumed the responsibility to re-submit”. Because if they don’t have that proof, then the law is on his side since he has proof that they received it the first time he sent it. The only proof they would have of this is a phone conversation if they recorded it, which is weak evidence in court (especially with comparison to his certified mail affidavit).
@Brendon: $3000 (plus the damages you could get for them not following the procedures in the law) is enough that I would be looking into getting a lawyer and suing if I were you. I think you have a strong case based on what you have said here. You also might want to check out this link, which shows how you can file an FTC complaint against Chase for their handling of the matter. It’s also got some good information on the applicable laws. [www.ftc.gov]
@Pylon83: He sent the papers twice, at least once by certified mail. No further effort is necessary.
Accepting Chase’s version of events – that they received and lost the papers – does not put any additional onus on him. It is not his legal responsibility to make sure Chase processes his paperwork properly. And his agreeing to help Chase rectify their mistakes be resending the papers does not make their mistakes his fault.
It just figures that the first comment was someone blaming the victim.
@LionelEHutz: well truth be told based on the information given in the mail, he was right.
Now that its been expanded on though, clearly Chase is in the wrong, but from the original indication, the guy never turned in his paperwork on time.
When I did it, they gave be a clearly defined date 2 1/2 weeks in advance of when I called about the fraud. I got the papers the next day.
@Falconfire:
Not to nitpick, but how was he right based on the original mail? It doesn’t matter what Chase says about a “deadline” of 2.5 weeks or whatever. The law overrides their policy, and the law says you have 60 days. So even just based on the original info Chase was in the wrong, IMO. As long as you get the certified mail in before then, you are in the right, period.
Many of the above comments criticizing the victim are way out of line.
Perhaps employees of Chase? Or invasion of collection agents?
@ddwibb:
Or perhaps people who think critically and don’t take things on their face as true, just because it was posted on the internet?
@CatMoran: Nope, I was surprised too.
@Pylon83: Nah, it’s just the usual BS that goes flying around here. Post a story? SOMEONE will blame you, no matter whether or not you did everything right, even if it was advice that this very site’s commenters throw out as advice.
@Buran:
And that’s part of what makes this site worth reading. It would just be another slanted media outlet if there weren’t dissenters amongst the ranks. Clearly some of the hard core “pro-consumer” readers dislike it when someone like myself questions a story, or suggests that the company is not ALWAYS wrong, but the opposing comments put the slanted reporting by the editors of this site into a slightly better perspective.
@Buran: I think it’s Buran’s fault.
@balthisar: I was in Rosorito on vacation with with my girlfriend, and this happened on our way out of the hotel for the night. No weapon or anything was used but as it was some Mexican guy bigger than me demanding my wallet, I was not about to protest, esp. in a county that is known for police corruption.
@Pylon83: In Pylon83-world, all credit card fraud paperwork must be submitted in less than two weeks. In the United States, one has 60 days. Based on this, you condemned the OP and made such claims as:
“At some point, Chase has to say “Sorry” and move on to other things.” (As if two weeks is way too long for Chase’s short attention span, and despite US law to the contrary)
“I don’t understand why the Consumerist is standing up for this guy, it’s clear he had little interest in resolving the matter in a timely fashion.” (As if he didn’t have other things to deal with after getting mugged in a foreign country: how to get home, getting a new passport, calling his other credit card companies and filling out their forms, the Policia)
“Perhaps next time he’ll get his priorities in line and deal with things a bit more quickly” (Have you ever been mugged in a foreign country? Was credit card paperwork your first priority afterwards?)
This is not a case of a noble dissenter bravely questioning the status quo. This is a case of several assholes blaming a crime victim because they imagine they would have rushed home and mailed their credit card paperwork faster than he did.
@noquarter:
There was not enough of a timeline given in the original complaint to establish whether or not it was done within 60 days. He uses vague phrases like “about a month or so” and “when I got around to it”, and “I waited a few weeks”. Had he given a bit more of a precise timeline in the beginning, there would have been much less to attack.
ddwibb said: Many of the above comments criticizing the victim are way out of line.
Puh-leeze, Mary! Out of line would be using vulgar language or making disparaging, personal remarks.
There seems to be a notion around here that any commenter who asks for further details about a situation or dares to suggest that a consumer could have done something differently is “blaming the victim.” That’s as asinine as saying that people who oppose the war do not support the troops.
The fact is that though Chase is clearly wrong in this matter, the guy would have gotten better results had he followed many of the tips that are routinely posted on Consumerist.
If he sent the documents via certified mail, then he should provide the Chase representatives with the tracking # and tell them to buzz off, they’ve received the documents, it’s up to them to figure out what happened. That is assuming he actually sent it via certified mail and retained the paperwork, which he should have regarding any legal issue.
@johnva: a few weeks could EASILY mean 2 months. Based on the original email he stated that he got to a a month AFTER he got back, which could have been a few days, but from the tone of the email seemed much longer than that. THATS why people assumed he screwed up. The fact is, that it took a month for him to straighten himself out to get a handle on his cards is ridiculous, in 3 days he should have been able to get everything taken care of. Like I said Chase sent me the paperwork to file the NEXT day, and I faxed them the day after that. They corrected my card within a week counting the time between my call and when they shipped out the card to me… making me seriously take the originator of this email as suspect as I have worked with them on a fraud case 2 months ago and have nothing but praise.
@Falconfire: Well, I’ll admit it was a little bit ambiguously worded, so there is room to disagree. My assumption from the beginning was that “a few weeks” was probably less than 60 days (60 days from Chase mailing a statement, not 60 days from him reporting it). The other stuff in the timeline, like him sending the second copy a month later, is completely irrelevant assuming he actually sent the first one by certified mail and got confirmation of its delivery.
I’ve dealt with fraud on a Chase card in the past, too. While I didn’t have anything like this happen, I was somewhat less than pleased with their service during the incident. They rather rudely questioned me when I said that it fraud and posted by an Internet site I had never heard of before. I had to be pretty forceful with them to get them to accept the possibility that it was fraud and mail me out an affidavit to sign. They did end up reversing it, but not before basically accusing me of lying to them. We never really know if a poster is telling the truth or not, so I’m just going by what they’ve told us.
@structuralpoke: And *I* think it’s Bush’s fault.
(I’m kidding.)