Reader Run Over By Bus That Slammed Doors In His Face

One of our readers, Philip, was run over by a bus and he’s been trying to sue the bus operators for $105,000 without success. Above is a clip of the accident recorded by the bus’s security cameras. The odd thing is that the incident occurred after the bus driver refused to let Philip change his son’s diaper at the bus stop or change it on the bus. What’s more, is that the bus drove around the corner away from the normal stop to prevent Philip and his son from getting on, closing the door in their face and driving away. Trying to bang on the door, Philip fell and got ran over. His complete story, inside…

UPDATE: Here is the full video of the incident (32 MB, ZIP).

On February 21, 2007, I was taking my 4 year old special needs child to OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). It was around 2:50pm and we got to the TriMet bus which was on layover (Line 12). I smelled something coming from my son and considered the possibility that he may have a dirty diaper (thankfully, he’s out of them now).

So I asked the bus driver if she would be willing to let me on the bus so I can change his diaper and then toss it away outside the bus so it wasn’t on the bus the whole trip up to Portland (about an hour).

She said that it was against TriMet policy to change a diaper on the bus and to use the bathrooms across the street. She was getting ready to leave and I wouldn’t have been able to go to the restrooms and be sure to catch the bus (It was the last bus that would’ve gotten us there while it was still open).

So I mentioned to her that I could change the diaper now (there was no place to change him outside as the area had no bench and had pretty sharp rocks along the side of the road), or I could change it while on the bus.

She got very upset at this and started screaming at me. I took it in stride and figured either I could wait an hour or I could miss the bus and have a screaming child who was promised OMSI and now isn’t going. So I picked the hour.

After about 5 mins., the bus pulled forward and the driver announced that I wasn’t allowed to board the bus. She told everyone to go around the corner where there is no stop and she will pick them up there.

So as the crown started moving towards that area, I followed along. Now, I’m overweight and I was holding my sons hand (who had started already crying because the bus was leaving for OMSI and we weren’t on it). The bus came to a stop in the middle of the street and there were cars on the right hand side. Everyone had about a 3 foot gap to come up to the bus.

I was the last one to get there and as I got to the door, she closed it and started driving away. I started banging on the window to try and get her to stop and she didn’t. I was in plain view when I tripped and a second later, my son saw me get run over by a bus and the meat on my left leg get ripped off.

I had 7 surgeries and a month in the hospital (racking up around $100,000 in medical costs). The lawyer that I got said that they are dropping the case because I can be considered to be at least 50% responsible (She didn’t want me on the bus and I attempted to get on, so she gets to run over me). TriMet is (of course) denying any wrongdoing (in fact, according to the police report, they told police that the bus didn’t run over my leg even though the doctors in ER saw the tire prints on the muscle I had left).

So now.. I essentially have to eat the costs of the medical (and have a deformed leg for the rest of my life) because I wanted to ride the bus and take my kid to OMSI.

I have a video of the accident and you can see that I remain calm during the whole process. The bus driver said that she was scared for her life, but shouldn’t she have called the police if she was?

He’s also set up a site to voice his grievance: I Hate TriMet

Comments

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  1. PinkBox says:

    The trip to the museum could have probably waited.

  2. Freedomboy says:

    Assault with a deadly weapon? Child endangerment anyone? If the kid had fallen to close to the tires what then?

    Puffed up little toadies working for the PUBLIC have no business inventing policies like run away from the citizen who has not broken the rule only asked about the rule.

    Not the driver’s bus you know.

  3. GitEmSteveDave says:

    Did anyone else notice this guy shattered the window on the bus? I’m not sure how “calm” you are when you shatter a window on a vehicle. Also, you can see people behind this guy trying to get the bus also, so I DO believe the driver was scared, which is why she took off.

    As for calling the police, I’m sure policy is to try to get away from someone rather than sit there and wait for the cops to show.

  4. Murph1908 says:

    @Freedomboy:
    Ok, what about child engangerment charges against the dad?

    He was told he could not change the child on the bus, and was advised where he could do so. He tried circumventing these options, and was pounding on a moving bus.

    I agree, the driver’s actions were poorly chosen. But so were the victim’s.

    The assessment that he was 50% at fault seems accurate to me.

  5. wring says:

    where’s Vawanda when you need her most?

  6. Falconfire says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: If you look at the video, the window was smashed right when the guy was ran over, probabaly trying to catch his balance before falling under the wheels.

    As for being scared? That doesnt excuse running OVER a rider, or going to the wrong bus stop.

  7. Freedomboy says:

    OK so revoke the Dad’s pedestrian license and the driver’s right to operate a public vehicle, seems fair.

    As a non-driver I am constantly amazed that drivers and driver types feel the car/truck/bus/whatever is somehow going to be hurt/killed by the person and not the other way around.

  8. HeHateMe says:

    Not placing any blame on him, but common sense says “why not change the kid and just wait for the next bus.” Depending on the day they are only 10-15 minutes apart (weekends they may be 30 min apart, depending on time of day). Doesn’t seem worth creating a scene… As with any business, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, right?

    • ShizaMinelli says:

      @HeHateMe: Common sense also says read the entire article: “(It was the last bus that would’ve gotten us there while it was still open).”

  9. Nelsormensch says:

    @Murph1908:

    The assessment that he was 50% at fault seems accurate to me.

    That seems to be the case to me as well. The driver was acting pretty ridiculous but Philip chose to run after the bus and was banging on the door. Around here, there are signs at large bus stops telling riders not to run after the bus and/or bang on the doors after they’ve been closed. It’s not as if the bus driver swerved onto the curb and struck him.

    Both parties could have done something to prevent this, which sounds like 50% at fault to me.

  10. jodles says:

    as much as it sounds like this guy provoked the bus driver, i’m pretty sure it’s illegal to run someone over with a bus.

  11. GitEmSteveDave says:

    @Falconfire: Actually, the window was fine until you see the gentleman approach the door. As soon as the driver starts pulling away, he shatters the window and the guy in the green jumps back a little. Then you can see the guy in the lower cam as he is on the side of the bus till he trips.

    Also, please note the people behind the gentleman as he approaches the bus who appear to be trying to get on. Given the gentlemans size, and also the we don’t know what the driver looked like (small frame maybe?), I can believe she had a genuine fear for hers and the passengers safety, and tried to remove them all from the situation. Given the other passengers trying to get on, when he clearly states,
    I was the last one to get there and as I got to the door, she closed it and started driving away. I started banging on the window to try and get her to stop and she didn’t.

    He was NOT the last one to try to get on, and she closed the door on him for a reason. He also says, “I have a video of the accident and you can see that I remain calm during the whole process. Smashing a window is by NO means calm.

  12. bobpence says:

    The reader should look into “medical bankruptcy.” And an anger management course.

    The father of a friend who told her: Never go a day without medical insurance. Heeding that advice put her in a much better place when she learned she had leukemia. Now that she survived the cancer, the bills aren’t coming around to kill her.

    We often get angriest when we really blame ourselves — it’s called projection — and I suspect this is true of a parent who gets barely manages to get their kid to the last bus late in the afternoon.

  13. UpsetPanda says:

    @jodles: Are they looking to prove the bus driver was malicious, and thus purposely hit him with a bus? Because the OP admitted that he tripped. He didn’t specify that the bus driver swerved the bus, or drove the bus toward him (which I would’ve thought was important if I were the one who was run over, and I was trying to establish blame). He said he tripped, and in the video he was pretty close to a parked car. It looks like he tripped on the car, fell down, and that is when he was run over. Certainly, if the driver had intentionally maneuvered the bus to hit him, it would show malice, but that bus was driving steady and straight.

    I would also ask the OP, what the frak were you doing running after a bus? With a child? Can we say “child endangerment” and “what a looney”?

  14. sonichghog says:

    They are both wrong. This driver should be in trouble though for leaving the scene of an accident.

  15. gniterobot says:

    Sad story but it’s just ignorant to say that she struck him with the bus with any intent. He put himself into a dangerous situation and the bus driver reacted poorly.

    When a lawyer doesn’t want to take the case, you know you got nothing.

  16. ArtDonovansLoveChild. says:

    Here is a brief aside. As a bigger fellow, I often have to compose myself in confrontations quicker then other people. When I start raising my voice it comes off much more intimidating then when a slighter man does the same thing. One of my friends who is black taught me this, as he obviously runs into the same reaction.

  17. GitEmSteveDave says:

    @sonichghog: The driver didn’t leave the scene. If I hit someone with a car, I don’t immediately stop where I hit the person and proceed not an inch further. You can see in the video that she stops the bus, and the passengers get out to see what happened.

  18. GitEmSteveDave says:

    @ArtDonovansLoveChild.: I used to work with a lot of women in my one job, and a few of them had said they were intimidated by me (5’10″ 240ish @ the time) at first, but realized that I’m just a lovable little fuzzball later.

  19. BigNutty says:

    Another idiot parent that thinks trying to catch a bus running with his kid is better that taking care of changing his kid first, then get the bus.

    The bus driver was obviously trying to get away, not purposely trying to run anybody over.

  20. AlisonAshleigh says:

    Am I the only one who has NO FUCKING IDEA whats going on in this video, other than a guy in a green jacket getting on and off a bus???

  21. canerican says:

    @BigNutty: What I thought…

  22. girly says:

    It took me a long time to figure out, keep your eye on a guy wearing red, and for the first vid on the top left keep your eye on the window to the right of the bus door.

  23. UpsetPanda says:

    @AlisonAshleigh: I had a problem understanding the video too, mostly because it was a composite of several screens. watch the video again, and you’ll see him get run over on the bottom left screen. It was the only one that I knew showed what happened.

  24. So I mentioned to her that I could change the diaper now (there was no place to change him outside as the area had no bench and had pretty sharp rocks along the side of the road), or I could change it while on the bus.

    Is anyone else confused by that? Why mention “I could change it while on the bus” if you’ve just been told it’s their policy that you can’t? The bus driver probably assumed he was going to change his kid on the bus anyway and that’s why she didn’t want to let him on.

    That does not excuse running him over. Also, fearing for her life sounds like a lie.

  25. Rob says:

    Complete Bull Shit.

    I ride the 12 all the freaking time it runs every 15 minutes, he would have been 15 minutes late. (Woopde doo, I bet that’s better then being hit by a bus)

    The bus driver is under no obligation to let you board when they have left the curb, you standing a foot from the bus doors smashing a window in shows that you were not acting calm or normal, she had every right to leave you in the dust. Oh and you’re a moron for getting that close to a bus in the street with your child.

    The driver should not have gone but I damn well know if I was her I would have taken off the instant he started hitting the door. Not to mention its not like she swerved the bus at him she just started driving in a straight line it was his own fault for being in the street trying to board a bus, if he was on the curb this never would have happened.

    He’s a moron who endangered his kid because he did not want to wait.

    Also do we know that the bus driver was even saw that he got hit by the bus?

  26. ThomFabian says:

    Seems to me what he should be doing right now is thanking the Lord that it was him who got run over rather than his son who he brought into the street to chase a bus.

  27. AlisonAshleigh says:

    @CaffeinatedSquint:
    OH!!!
    …I thought he was a woman??? I’m so confused!

  28. dlab says:

    Wow, this is one of the most awful things I have read here. Well, actually, I’ve read millions of awful things here, but this is right up there.

    Come on people, I know we have somebody reading this that could give Phillip a hand…

  29. Saboth says:

    Yeah, another parent thinking the world revolves around them because of their choice to reproduce….he complains there was no place at the bus stop to change his kid, and they wouldn’t let him do it on the bus. I’m sure there was a bathroom SOMEWHERE around the bus stop. Was this the last bus for the day or something? I wouldn’t want his kid’s biomedical waste around me on the bus either.

    I think more likely: Big fat guy that is angry all the time at being fat and having to take care of a screaming brat gets furious when his kid makes his life even more difficult with a poop at a bad time. He screams at the bus driver and tries to flout the rules. She tries to make her rounds…he gets pissed and busts out a window then trips and gets himself run over.

  30. John says:

    Who in the world would think it reasonable to change their child’s diaper on the bus rather than in a convenient nearby restroom? If I were a fellow passenger on that bus and he tried to change a diaper I would have raised holy hell. Is this man out of his mind? He made some incredibly poor decisions and now he has to live with them. The driver didn’t handle herself too well either, but – yeah, 50% sounds about right.

  31. warf0x0r says:

    If he had just gotten on the bus with a kid who smelled what was the problem?

    Plenty of smelly adults get on the bus.

    I think her refusal to let him on the bus isn’t justified because the only reason she would not want him on the bus is because of the smell. Which isn’t against policy, unless someone knows of a policy prohibiting smelly people on the bus.

    He should sue again, for discrimination. Unless there is something I’m not hearing here. Why should a public transportation line be allowed to refuse service to people that have babies with dirty diapers?!?

  32. @AlisonAshleigh: I had to watch it several times.

    Given the gentlemans size, and also the we don’t know what the driver looked like (small frame maybe?),
    @GitEmSteveDave: So now fat people are scary?

    I also only see one person behind him in the video before the bus starts moving. Maybe he didn’t think she was trying to get on the bus?

  33. impudence says:

    50%???? The driver of the bus has the obligation to drive her bus in a safe manner. Once she saw the man was alongside her bus she had the obligation to stop. Everyone is writing as if he saw a bus passing by and chased it down, instead he suddenly saw the door closing in his face and banged on the door to get her attention. He was understandably upset becuase the driver was going out of her way to avoid letting him on the bus. The bus driver took legal responsibility once she decided to pick passengers up outside the designated bus stop. But for her decision he would not have been injured.

  34. girly says:

    I would say that if a driver sees it is
    *very* likely that someone is going to chase the bus, they shouldn’t drive off but rather call the police and have the person removed if they seem dangerous.

    I think this is another one of those cases where even if you feel you have rights as a consumer that are being violated but the circumstances are a bit questionable, you should just wait and address them later (like the guy with his iphone on the plane probably should have done).

    He could have done something like changed the boy, called a cab, and then used the consumerist to help him complain to the bus company and get his cab fare compensated. (“last bus of the day won’t wait 5 minutes for you to change your child’s diaper”)

  35. Kurtz says:

    I also think he’s 50% at fault. He put himself in danger by running after the bus and the driver apparently reacted poorly to the situation. But I get the feeling there’s more to the story, especially if his lawyer dropped the case.

    Why on earth does he feel entitled to change his kid’s diaper on the bus? Seriously?! How anyone could change their child’s feces-splattered, bateria-laden disposable undergarments in full view on public transportation is beyond me. He could have done it in the restroom the driver pointed out to him and waited 15 minutes for the next bus like a civilized person. But no, he went apeshit and paid the price. So instead of going to OMSI, his child instead got to see the wheels on the bus go round and round, all over his dad.

  36. girly says:

    @warf0x0r: that sounds fairly reasonable to me–the driver could have told him to get on but not change the diaper during the ride.

  37. SJActress says:

    I think the driver is 100% in the wrong.

    Regardless of what jerkish moron this guy was being, she shouldn’t have put the bus in motion with someone that close to it, unless he was flashing a gun or something (ESPECIALLY when he has a child with him). The door is closed–she’s safe. She can call the cops right then. Informing him that she had would probably make him leave anyway.

  38. wordsmithy says:

    Ben, please. “Philip fell and got RUN over.” not ran.

  39. @Rectilinear Propagation: There’s two people, whom you can see about 9 seconds in in the bottom cam.

    But as for the fat comment, the gentleman looks to be about 300lbs+ (I speak from personal experience having hit 285 once). He was upset enough to SHATTER a window on a bus, which are more than likely designed to be more shatter proof than most windows just for safety and cost savings. If the driver was a woman of lets say 130ish weight, and also of an unknown age, an large irate gentleman coming at you would be scary enough.

    Now we also don’t know what the other passengers were saying, or what preceded this clip. Maybe the guy who was last on said “Get the hell out of here, I think he’s gonna snap!”, which would add to the fear, and make her want to drive away.

    I have been searching for a news story, which would tend to be less emotional than the victims account, but no luck as of late. I would like to see the “facts”.

  40. harumph says:

    aside from every other angle on this, who the hell thinks it’s okay to change your kid on the bus? he sounds like a flaky ass father who doesn’t have it together enough to plan ahead. not to excuse the driver either but something about this guy seems really off.

    • ShizaMinelli says:

      @harumph: Sadly, where I come from, quite a few people think it’s perfectly alright to change their child any damn place they choose. I work at a store in the mall and a lady tried to change her kid on the floor of our store, on a Saturday Afternoon in the middle of the store, THEN gave us attitude when we told her she coudln’t and tried to direct her towards the public restroom that was less than 200 feet away. She ended up calling security on us for “discrimination” or some other such nonsense.

  41. Murph1908 says:

    @warf0x0r:
    Why should a public transportation line be allowed to refuse service to people that have babies with dirty diapers?!?

    The guy flat out said “So I mentioned to her that I could change the diaper now … or I could change it while on the bus.”

    He was going to get on the bus and change the kid, despite the driver’s stating that he could not do that.

    @impudence:
    The victim took responsibility when he tried forcing his way onto a bus he was told he could not board, then deciding to break the window instead of backing off.

  42. @SJActress: He was upset(even though he claims he was calm) enough to BREAK a window. I think we were well past the “I’m gonna call the cops” phase by that point. Given that emotional state, I don’t believe he was very rational.

    I missed a train once just as the door was closing, and I know someone saw me. Did I punch a dent into the train. No. There’s something more to this when the video discounts the victims account.

  43. WNW says:

    TriMet has a history of running people over

    [www.portlandtribune.com]

    [bikeportland.org]

    I always give the buses a wide berth

  44. swunder says:

    @AlisonAshleigh:

    I thought it was a woman too! I must’ve watched the video 10 times and gave up until I saw the other posts.

  45. girly says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: What danger could he have posed,though? Even if he smashed the windows, practically speaking, I do not see how he could have fit into any opening he created by doing that.

    The driver could have waited and called the police.

  46. @warf0x0r: Does the bus have proper accomodations for diaper changing? Or was he going to change the diapers on the bus’s seats while it was bouncing around the streets? ANY spillage is considered a bio-hazard, and the passengers would have to disembark and the bus cleaned. We hear enough on THIS site about fecal contamination killing people, so it’s a real risk.

  47. UpsetPanda says:

    warf0x0r:think her refusal to let him on the bus isn’t justified because the only reason she would not want him on the bus is because of the smell. Which isn’t against policy, unless someone knows of a policy prohibiting smelly people on the bus.

    @warf0x0r: The problem wasn’t that he wanted to change the diaper on the bus and she wouldn’t let him because of the smell, the driver said it was against policy to let people do that. I would imagine that was the case because not only would a child be out of sitting position (lying down), it’s unsanitary.

    AlisonAshleigh:…I thought he was a woman??? I’m so confused!

    @AlisonAshleigh: Driver’s a woman, Phillip-who-got-run-over is a man.

    girly: that sounds fairly reasonable to me–the driver could have told him to get on but not change the diaper during the ride.

    @girly: I’ve never driven a bus or taxi or anything for a living, but I can kind of see how bus drivers get all sorts of people who just don’t obey the rules, or treat them like crap, you know? So chances are, the fair share of people who ride the bus aren’t going to respect the rules and do whatever they want to do anyway. I don’t blame her for refusing to let him get on.

  48. warf0x0r says:

    @Murph1908: Damnit, Fail. I thought I was getting all Law and Order smart. I would assume that it is reasonable to believe that he was planning to violate the rules on the bus. Even though he said in the article that he decided to just ride the bus and change it after an hour. If he relayed that he would wait until he got off at his stop it would be different.

    The question now, for him at least, is what is the policy if you have a potential passenger that may be looking to break said rule of changing a dirty diaper on the bus?

  49. @girly: The police or dispatch was probably called by this point, but when people get irate, they are not rational. She didn’t know if he had any weapons. In hindsight, he didn’t brandish one, but at the moment, she doesin’t know. And if the fellow passengers felt threatened, I think she was right to not wait there. I don’t know what the other windows look like, but is there a window right NEXT to the driver on her side he could have crossed in front of the bus to smash out, giving him access to her?

    As I said, we don’t know the facts. And since the video is directly proving his account wrong, and a lawyer turned down a “juicy” case against a municipal agency, I think there’s more to this that the account.

  50. Captaffy says:

    You can CLEARLY see him raise his fist in one frame, and then in the next one the window is smashed. Oh yeah, he was super calm. Calmy McCalmsters.

  51. phantomoftheopry says:

    I’m sorry the guy got hurt, but I think ultimately he bears a lot of responsibility in the incident. Unfortunately inconvenient things happen: you miss a bus because some other event gets in the way. Then you have to wait and it sucks, but that’s life.

  52. AlisonAshleigh says:

    @CaffeinatedSquint:
    Lol, I meant that the guy in the video, that got hit by a bus, looked like a woman. Swunder agreed, apparently :-p

  53. Uh oh... Cleveland says:

    Wow, what a bunch of mean people. Seriously. The story by Philip is a little confusing but after this I don’t think he’s coming back to explain any of it. So kudos for making him feel welcome to try to get some help on Consumerist.

    But no one has mentioned that the driver pulled away from the designated stop and picked up people “around the corner.” It seems to me that this would be a gross violation of the rules. Bus stops are designated areas with enough room and proper grading, etc. to allow safe boarding of the bus. She pulled around the corner and tried to told people to board in an area where there were cars parked close by. It’s a less safe area to board the bus. It doesn’t matter if he smashed the window or ran after the bus, the driver has some level of negligence to answer for before you start figuring out how much he is at fault. So I don’t think it’s 50-50.

    Oh, and for all the people calling Philip fat–he might be, but all of your comments gave the impression that he was an asshole because he was fat. That if he was a beanpole, he wouldn’t have acted this way. That’s crap. Whether he’s fat or skinny or white or black or anything is just not germaine to the conversation.

  54. UpsetPanda says:

    I don’t have kids, so I don’t really know, but is it normal for 4 year olds to be in diapers? If so, then I don’t understand taking on the “special needs” tag onto the story. If not, then I understand that “special needs” might explain his description. A lot of developmental illnesses are physical in nature, rather than mental.

  55. swalve says:

    @wordsmithy: My dictionary says that ran is the past tense of run.

  56. UpsetPanda says:

    @Uh oh… Cleveland: I did think about this, actually, the fact that the driver told the other people waiting at the stop to go around the corner.

    If she felt as if this man were going to try to force his way on the bus, and in fact he was 250 pounds + probably made her feel as if she needed to find a way to avert what she may have thought was a potential problem. The fact that he is fat is not implying that he is mean, but how would you feel if a large, potentially angry man were going to come into your bus?

  57. burgundyyears says:

    Come on, you come on here and tell us at least two material lies about the incident, easily discernible in the video:

    1. You were not the last person. I see at least one other person who seems to be approaching the bus behind you.

    2. You were not calm. Calm people do not raise fists and smash out windows.

    I think the fact that you were dropped by your attorney speaks volumes and that there’s more to this that we’re not being told.

    And seriously, who changes a diaper ON a public bus? That is disgusting. Although the driver could have potentially reacted better, if you were on the bus or getting on the bus and announced your intention to change your child while on it, I would tell to get off.

  58. Saboth says:

    @girly:

    /smash in window…pulls out gun and sticks it in and starts firing.

    Sorry, in this life if you suspect danger, run and figure it out later. Standing around pontificating whether “hmm I believe we are safe enough, lets just sit here and wait on the police for 30 minutes” gets people killed.

  59. @burgundyyears: It is kind of tough to say “After engaging in an insightful exchange of ideas and opinions, we mutually agreed that this might not be the bus for me to travel on at this time. I then calmly used my fist to break a window…….”

  60. @GitEmSteveDave: There’s only one person visible before the bus starts moving. The second person’s just in the crosswalk, not trying to catch the bus.

    The bus is moving before the window breaks, therefore it couldn’t have been the window breaking that freaked out the driver. Unfortunately, you can’t tell what his demeanor is in the video before that happens. So maybe not “lie” but “possible exaggeration”. No way to tell from the video.

    What I don’t get is 1) why the driver decided to drive from the bus stop to that place to let the passengers on and 2) why the father tried to board after being told he wasn’t getting on. Is it normal for TriMet buses to load and unload away from the curb like that?

  61. @Rectilinear Propagation: Not that I believe he was totally calm, btw.

  62. savdavid says:

    Hmm…with all the lawyers advertising “if you have been harmed….” on TV, I have trouble believing no one will take his case. You have video of the incident which is a lawyer’s dream. Something is being left out of the story or sugar coated I think.

  63. Uh oh... Cleveland says:

    @CaffeinatedSquint: finding the way out of the problem does not mean, go around the corner and pick people up there. She should have waited or called the police, if necessary. Or just driven off from the designated bus stop and not stopped around the corner. It’s an inconvenience, but at least it’s safe (for all involved).

    Though I concede that it is telling that his own lawyer dropped the case. But then there what WNW said about the Portland buses hitting people. Hmmm.

  64. jesirose says:

    That video is useless.

  65. wordsmithy says:

    @swalve:

    aah, but you don’t need the past tense “run.” You need the past participle “run.”

    He gets run over.

    He will get run over.

    He got run over.

  66. UpsetPanda says:

    @Uh oh… Cleveland: Oh I have no doubt that the driver acted somewhat in poor judgment, but I’m just saying, I can see why she did it. Public transportation jobs aren’t cakewalk. You never know who boards your bus.

  67. Jerim says:

    Something seems odd here. How does a minor “altercation” with the first bus turn into a refusal to let someone on the second bus? Even assuming it was the same driver and the same bus both times, why would she pull up the second time and without even a word from you, tell everyone to meet her around the corner and that she isn’t letting you on? Is there more to this story that you aren’t telling? I don’t have random strangers deny me things for no reason at all, which seems to be what you are claiming.

    Bus drivers are like pilots, it is their bus and they can refuse anyone. That is why it is reasonable to be on your best behavior. If you were so upset on disappointing your son, it seems to me like you would have swallowed your pride if you had to and just done what the driver asked with no dispute. My belief is that your pride took a hit when the first driver wouldn’t let you on, and you probably scared her to the point that she called dispatch who then warned the next bus not to pick you up. That makes the story more logical.

  68. @Rectilinear Propagation: I think the breaking of the window was the “punctuation” of the event which led up to the drive off. If someone comes at my car with a bat and as I drive off they smash a window, I had a reason to freak out.

    As for location, we have already seen two things being proven wrong in the account, so we don’t know the full extent of this. In reading his account again, to summarize; he wasn’t on the bus, and the driver was refusing to let him on. She then left the bus idling on the street w/o moving for 5 minutes,whereupon she starts moving the bus forward before announcing(maybe the bus has an external speaker, or she got up out of her seat and stuck her head out the door while it was in drive?) that she was gonna stop around the corner. I don’t know, but something doesn’t smell right, and it isn’t junior’s diaper. Perhaps she went to the next stop and he was following the bus after being denied and the driver saw it as a continuing danger?

  69. Uh oh... Cleveland says:

    @CaffeinatedSquint: True, but she used poor judgement and someone got injured. That, in my estimation, is grounds for a negligence case. If someone get’s his calf muscle ripped off (think about that for a second) I would hope there’s a little help (or at least sympathy) for the guy.

  70. girly says:

    I still think the driver should have called the police and waited.

    If he was so dangerous, the driver should have looked out for the child the ‘dangerous’ man was with, even if there was a potential risk.

    And definitely, the guy should not have abandoned his kid to bang on the bus.

  71. I Will Not Stop Feeding My Fat Baby says:

    This is where the 50/50 comes in. They were both partly to blame.

  72. @girly: How is the driver supposed to “look out” for a child? She is a lay-person, not trained to protect and serve. If you were in your car, and some guy came up and started banging on your window/car and was becoming visibly(even though he said he was calm) upset, would you pull out your cell phone and dial 911 and wait right were you are for the police to show up, if he had a kid w/him or not?

    @Uh oh… Cleveland: So if a guy beats someone up on the street, and then slips on some blood from his victim, he should be entitled to a payout? If he had not committed the crime(destroying public property IS a crime), he would not have been in the situation.

  73. eys says:

    There is no reason anyone should be changing any diapers on the bus. It sounds like if the person in question had taken care of his kid’s problem at the restaurant across the street, none of this would have happened. Yes, this means the trip to the museum would have been postponed, but shit happens (so to speak).

  74. girly says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: I would say it would be fair to call the police and wait for them.

    If he seemed so dangerous, how could the driver have thought that pulling forward would foil him?

  75. macinjosh says:

    More evidence of the Hurley curse.

    (Sorry.)

  76. Uh oh... Cleveland says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: Beating someone up on the street is not at all analogous to this situation. And we still don’t know if the window was broken before she drove off (you just can’t tell from the video). So we don’t know if it there was crime. But, assuming there was, she’s in an enclosed bus. She could have called the police and waited. And she created the situation by using–and I’ll call it this so you’ll understand–and illegal bus stop.

  77. K-Bo says:

    Anyone else having trouble figuring out why he would be worried about catching the last bus to a museum that would get there before the museum closes? It’s not the kind of place you go to walk in then leave. A trip to the museum is an all day trip with my 4 year old niece, and she still gets upset when we have to leave because they are closing. Unless the next bus was not until 3+ hours later, it just doesn’t make sense to me that they wouldn’t even make it there till it was closed if they missed that bus.

  78. Uh oh... Cleveland says:

    @K-Bo: Again, it’s confusing, but I don’t think he’s coming back to explain it all to us.

  79. @girly: Please don’t take this the wrong way, I don;t mean this to sound snarky. Humans have a basic instinct called “fight or flight”. In situations, your body decides whether to fight off the threat, or to run away. I am sure the driver did not know at the time what danger the gentleman posed to her and the other passengers. She more than likely wasn’t going to take on a irate 300+ lbs with her fists. She didn’t know if he had a weapon, or if he would walk to her side of the bus and break out a window/shoot through it. So she went with “flight”. Since putting the bus in park, taking the keys out, opening the door to get out(which puts you directly in the path of the threat you are fleeing), and then running wasn’t an option, she used the vehicle to try to get away.

    An armored car is armored. But if someone breaks out a gun and starts shooting at it, I bet the driver isn’t going to stop and then wait for help to arrive. In the heat of the moment, rational decisions aren’t going to happen. Instinct takes over, such as SELF preservation.

  80. bobpence says:

    I don’t read “at least 50%” as “50/50.” And sticking around someone who is agitated while waiting for a police response, while you are responsible for the people already on your bus, would not have been a good idea.

  81. @Uh oh… Cleveland: You can CLEARLY see the window intact in the first 9-10 secs of the video and it is broken right after the guy raises his fist at about 10 seconds. As for the bus being enclosed, I’m sure she has a window next to her, as bus drivers sometimes need to open them to pay for tolls, etc.., which puts her ~6 inches away from a point of entry. A man with a knife is dangerous to a radius of ~15 feet. If he had smashed her window, what would she do then, assuming her was unarmed. Still sit there and wait for him to grab her?

    As to an “illegal” stop, it was a corner. Many buses stop on corners, and in looking at TriMets website, the busses have “stop” buttons on them, meaning you can request to have the bus stop somewhere(there is even a visual signal to the other passengers that someone has pressed it, in case they are deaf). They are also almost all “kneeling” busses, which lower their front end to allow safe entry.

  82. girly says:

    If she only drove off after he hit the window, that would make more sense to me, but if she was already frightened at the point where she decided to just tell everyone she was pulling forward, that doesn’t make sense.

  83. burgundyyears says:

    Looked at the full video – still odd. I can clearly see a raised fist (looks like he was banging on the door?) at 15:54:15, another raised fist in the window at 15:54:16, and a shattered window at 15:54:17. He appears to trip at 15:54:18, and is injured by 15:54:19.

    Lesson: Don’t run alongside a bus, especially with a child in tow.

  84. UpsetPanda says:

    I was thinking more on this (it warrants extra brain power or brain time, since it’s such a fuzzy story), and I wonder if whether maybe the driver thought she a) had to get away from the crazy guy and b) thought if she didn’t make her scheduled pick up, she might get in trouble with her boss? Fear is a big motivator. I try to be off my boss’ ‘angry radar’ as much as I possibly can.

  85. Skiffer says:

    Does anyone else have “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer” going through their head as they read this?!?

    Phillip got run over by a Trimet
    Heading out to OMSI Christmas eve….

  86. Buran says:

    I’m sorry, but if you’re stupid enough to bang on the CLOSED doors of a bus that is already driving away, after you have already been denied boarding (for good reason; what you are proposing to do is a HEALTH HAZARD), and BROKE THE WINDOW on the bus no less, why are you surprised that you got injured?

    Grow up and take some responsibility for your stupidity. Maybe if you hadn’t had an intention of putting other peoples’ health at risk and put your own wants ahead of others’, maybe you wouldn’t have gotten hurt. I’m sorry you had to get run over to learn your lesson.

    Yes, the bus company needs to take some responsibility because a driver acting in their name ran someone over and should have stopped, but you? Grow the hell up and take responsibility instead of trying to sue your way out of admitting you screwed up.

  87. Skiffer says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: Dangerous to a radius of 15 ft?!? What the hell? Throwing a knife, sure…but reaching through a window? I don’t even understand…

    It’s been a while since I’ve ridden the bus, but wasn’t the stop button for “I want to stop at the next designated bus stop, please don’t drive past it” instead of “stop anywhere I want”?

  88. burgundyyears says:

    Looked at the web site – my last comment on this. To Phil:

    When a plaintiffs’ attorney actually tells you you are > 50% responsible for the accident, you pretty much have no case. Stating the fact that he told you that on a public web site is also a bad idea. It will make it very difficult to get another lawyer. Sorry pal.

  89. UpsetPanda says:

    @Skiffer: Well it’s not as if the button is mobile, and you can carry it to whatever corner you want. They’re posted at certain corners so that people who can’t get to a certain stop, or have to go too far for a certain stop, can still get on the bus at some point.

  90. UpsetPanda says:

    @Skiffer: Okay, I had a mental block. Sorry, I thought you meant there were buttons on street corners. Sorry! Now that I read your comment again, I would suppose that yes, the button is to stop at the next designated stop, but don’t bus drivers stop at every stop anyway?

  91. Jordan Lund says:

    I rode TriMet daily for 3 or 4 years and in that time I met quite a few psychotic drivers. Unfortunately I met way more psychotic passengers.

    Best driver story was when they changed the rules regarding tickets. If you had a timestamped ticket you were supposed to show it to the driver and keep it instead of putting it in the farebox and getting a transfer.

    This driver on the 72 line started yelling at me that I was supposed to put it in the fare-box until I pointed out to her that the rules had changed and the new rules were, in fact, PRINTED ON HER FAREBOX.

  92. phloighd says:

    Jeezus, (some of) you people are friggin awful. Whether it’s your inability to RTFA or your going over the jerky video like it’s the Zapruder film to prove whether or not he broke a window before a goddamn BUS runs over his leg, your snark is really out of place here.

  93. @Skiffer: Police regard a man with a knife dangerous within a radius of 15 feet. Meaning within a circle 15 feet around, he can pose a very dangerous threat. Since the drivers window is like a foot or so away from where she sits, if she had stayed put, he could have walked around to her window, broke it, and even without a knife, hurt her. I was just trying to empahsize how much danger he could have posed if he were armed, as no one knew at the time.

    And if she had stayed put, and he went for her window and broke it, then she would have had to get out of her seat, which would then prevent her from getting to her radio, etc.

    BTW, does anyone know WHERE this happened? I tried following the 12 line to where it crosses near railroad tracks like in the ZIPped video they just added on the page, but no luck.

  94. Just wanted to give my comments to the previous comments.

    1) Yes, I’m Phillip in the video.

    2) Yes, it is not normal for a 4 year old to still be in diapers. Hence why I made sure to specify that he is a special needs kid.

    3) It was 2:50 that the bus was going to take off. It would’ve taken an hour to arrive in Portland. Then another 15-20 mins. to catch the next bus to the museum. That would’ve gotten me there at 4:30. Half an hour there, then a trip back. Yes, not allot, but it would’ve been something. The buses ran every half hour. If I would’ve waited for the next bus, I would’ve made the trip and had a screaming, crying kid to bring all the way home because OMSI would’ve been closing. For those who said they ride the 12 (Rob) and that it comes every 15 mins. Not to Sherwood.

    4) Yes, it’s not good to change diapers on the bus. I don’t like doing it myself. But my choices were as follows.
    a) I could change the diapers in the restroom and miss the bus. Not a good solution because I didn’t want to get him hysterical.
    b) Change him on the rocks. I’ve tried it before. It wasn’t pleasant for either of us.
    c) Change him on the bus. I had all the supplies and I could get the diaper off him and make sure any messes got cleaned up. I’ve also seen other people doing this and the drivers never said anything before. I also found out after that TriMet themselves said that it wasn’t against the rules to change a diaper.
    d) Let him sit in it for an hour. Diaper rash, but looking back, may have been the best decision in 20/20 hindsight.

    5) I am being criminally charged for 2 things. 1 for criminal mischief (Breaking the window) and 1 for “Interfering with Public Transportation”… How I did that, I’m not sure. But my PD thinks we have a pretty solid case against it. The charges against the driver? None.

    6) My Lawyer asked to see the window, but it was disposed of. We asked for a new window so we can test how hard it is (It’s plenty hard) and if I could break it. They refused due to confidentially of TriMet property.

    7) The bus that it happened on has a camera that was recording sound. But no sound was sent with the video. When asked about it, they said it was confidential property of TriMet.

    8) The TriMet supervisor told the police that I was NOT run over by the bus, but that I cut my leg on one of the other cars.

    Overall, I have this to say..

    I wonder if I walk up to someone at random on the street and tell them to cross the street. When they refuse, I cut off most of the meat on their leg. According to the law then, the person can get no money from me because it was at least 50% their fault for not listening to me (The bus driver told me I couldn’t get on, but she wasn’t following the tri-met rules at that point).

  95. @phloighd: Well, in the account the gentleman provided, he states a couple of “facts” that are, in fact, false, to garner sympathy. He states that he was calm, and that he was the last person on, etc…, but the video discounts that. I have no problem feeling sorry for someone who has been rightfully wronged, and say fight the power, but the fact is the guy committed a crime, and got hurt as a result.

    Let’s suppose he DIDN’T get run over, but merely cut his hand up very badly from hitting the glass. Would you still expect him to come out in the right? If he had not committed the initial crime, the outcome would have been different. Can you honestly say you feel bad when a guy tries to steal copper power wire and ends up getting fried?

  96. girly says:

    Wouldn’t calling a cab have been an option? And cite the driver for violating the rules later?

  97. psm321 says:

    I’m not going to comment on who was at fault, but wanted to point out the fact that _everyone_ commenting on this thread appears to have missed the fact that he wanted to change the diaper while the bus was empty (before passengers got on), which is the initial request that was denied.

  98. No. At the time, I was looking for work and didn’t have around $30-$40 for cab fare to Portland.

  99. ihateauditions says:

    I don’t feel a lot of sympathy for the poster, but the driver of that bus should be taken off the road.

    If you just ran over a pedestrian, you should stop. Immediately.

    Sadly, I can’t even pretend to be surprised that so many consumerist readers take an idiotic “One person did something wrong, so the other party is completely exonerated” viewpoint.

  100. girly says:

    Sorry to hear.

    There have been other cases like this (not ending as unfortunately) where I think the consumer has more at stake/risk by immediately defending their rights than the company has, and it is worth it to suffer the grievance and then complain.

    Perhaps another lawyer will take your case.

  101. burgundyyears says:

    @Phillip M. Vector:

    The problems with your hypothetical are as follows:

    1) The bus driver is not some random person off the street. They are captain of the bus. As someone else said, it’s like the pilot of an aircraft. If they don’t want you on, you don’t get to be on. You seem to have a particular problem understanding this.

    2) The driver did not intentionally injure you. You were not knifed by the driver – you tripped and fell under the bus, after, mind you, chasing after it, breaking a window in the process, and all this after being told you were not going to be riding it.

    And I’m sorry, it’s not just “not good” to change diapers on a bus. It’s gross. I have ridden my fair share of buses in my life, and I have never witnessed anyone change a diaper on a bus. Yes, I know your child would have been upset about missing the bus. Oh well. No, it’s not the driver’s problem that your child will be upset and yes, it’s well beyond the obligations of the bus driver to accommodate your child’s dirty diaper.

  102. burgundyyears says:

    @ihateauditions: The driver stopped at best, a few tens of feet after it was apparent he was injured. It looks like on the video that he just tripped, to me.

    @psm321: So the whole bus can reek of crap when everyone gets on? A bus is not a diaper changing room. Sorry.

  103. peggynature says:

    @Saboth: Big fat guy that is angry all the time at being fat and having to take care of a screaming brat gets furious when his kid makes his life even more difficult with a poop at a bad time.

    Because, Lord knows, thin people never get angry and behave unreasonably. But if they did, I guess it would be fair to say it’s because they’re angry all the time at being so fugly and scrawny.

  104. @Phillip M. Vector: Sorry about your accident. In looking at the area now that I know where it is, isn’t the area where the bus stopped a stop? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but there seems to be a lot of stops along Pine Street and Sherwood Blvd. for the 12 bus.

  105. bdgbill says:

    Thank you mister bus driver for running over one of the INCREDIBLE ASSHOLES THAT CHANGE SHITTY DIAPERS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

  106. In downtown Sherwood, there is only 2 stops. Where she stopped after pulling ahead was not a stop and it was about 3-4 more blocks away.

  107. Rob says:

    @Phillip M. Vector: Your right it does not run every 15 minutes out there, I will give you that.

    It still does not excuse you from pounding on a door with your fists then breaking through a window, it also does not excuse you from putting your child in the way of physical harm. (But your right the mental harm from not going OMSI could have killed him, not like a fun bus wheel)

  108. @Phillip M. Vector: OK, because where the bus was when you first walked up at Railroad Street is only 2 blocks away from 2nd Street where the next stop was. So am I right to assume that the bus pulled over at the corner of 1st Street?

  109. LionelEHutz says:

    It wouldn’t be the consumerist without the typical bunch of a-holes blaming the victim

  110. chickymama says:

    oh Trimet, Trimet, Trimet. You guys truly do not know how to handle public relations. (i don’t live in Portland anymore but have ridden but their light rail lines and the buses).
    First—Trimet only carries liabitity insurance. so if one is injured because of Trimet (regardless of fault) the only way to get them to pay for anything is to sue.
    Trimet has good and bad bus drivers. I have ridden on buses where the driver will announce stops, wait for you if you are running for it and I have seen the opposite.
    Trimet though will defend their drivers whenever an accident occurs or at one of their MAX light rail stations. In fact just this past week a man was assaulted at one of their platforms. the police were told that there were video cameras installed at the station. when the video was requested…oops Trimet did not install them but is quickly resolving the issue at this moment. so there is no video of the incident for evidence purposes.
    I don’t agree with Phillip in regards to diaper changing and as a mom, it is a little bit unusual for a child at age 4 to still be in diapers (i don’t know what type of special needs he has) but to get into kindegarten, the child needs to be potty trained. I believe that he should have sucked it up and waited until he reached OMSI and then changed the diaper there.
    Phillip…get a better lawyer and sue. Trimet has gotten away with too many things and hopefully this will lead to better training opportunities for their drivers.

  111. Rob says:

    @LionelEHutz: HES NOT THE VICTIM

    BTW, “Trimet CODE : (2) Destructive Conduct Involving a District Vehicle: No person shall interfere with the safe and efficient operation of a District Vehicle through conduct which includes to: (e) Strike or hit a District Vehicle, stop or cross in front of a District Vehicle for the purpose of stopping the Vehicle or gaining passage after the Vehicle has concluded boarding;”

  112. UpsetPanda says:

    @LionelEHutz: I don’t think a website dedicated to consumer rights or consumer activism would be blind to issues in which the consumer is actually at fault. If you were looking for a site that always sided with the consumer, it doesn’t exist.

  113. Rob says:

    Hey, How many people watched the full video?

    It seems that right after she struck the man she stopped the bus, at the end of the video (several minutes after he was ran over) the bus is still there, so she did not leave the scene of the accident.

    I guess the bus driver wasn’t the horrible.

  114. @Phillip M. Vector: Also, why not go use the bathroom at the public library which was ~150 feet away? You were standing in front of the door for at least 5 minutes. In watching the video, you made it from Railroad Street to the front of the library in about 35 seconds. And it looks like the library underwent a renovation recently, so I’m sure it was ADA compliant. In checking their website, it’s open till at least 5pm(the 21st was a Wednesday, but the 24th was a Saturday).

  115. HeHateMe says:

    Why, oh Why would you wait until 2:30 in the afternoon to catch a bus to OMSI only to be there for 30 min? Especially when the trip itself is 6 times longer (round trip) than the actual visit itself. Of course that isn’t the point here, and as Philip said, hindsight is 20/20. I’m sure that if he could do it over he would have woken up earlier and left for OMSI a little earlier in the day, or gone a different day. If we could only get “re-do’s” in life, eh?

  116. @randompersons87: The people who think she left the scene of an accident seem to think that as soon as an accident happens, you instantly suspend the law of physics and time, and everything remains frozen. That darn physics makes things move until acted on by an outside force, like brakes. These are also the same people who think the SUV that weighs twice as much as my car will stop quicker and in a shorter distance in the snow. As Scotty said “Ye cannot change the laws of physics”.

  117. littlejohnny says:

    to the people that believe that the driver could have put herself in a safe condition by closing the door, not moving the bus, and calling the police I disagree. The doors on the bus require very little force to push open. I know b/c I was late for a bus and the driver closed the door in my face. It was the rear door and I assumed that he didn’t see me so I easily pulled the doors open and got on. He asked me to get off, and luckily I saw my bus approaching in the opposite direction, realized I was on the wrong bus and got off. Point?: The doors on the bus are easy to open.

  118. Rob says:

    @littlejohnny: They really are easy to open (Word to the wise: Don’t lean on the doors)

    @GitEmSteveDave: Yes, that darn physics!

    Another thing I noticed was that if you watch it frame by frame and use the bar that the man in green is holding on too as a point of reference you can see by the time he first hits the bus the bus had started to move.

  119. anasmartypants says:

    My dad was in a similar situation. only, he got run over by an overtaking car, suffered a punctured lung, shattered right leg, depressed skull, 3 broken ribs, stayed 2 months in the hospital, and died after a year from complications of his accident, and the driver only gave us the insurance payment they got from the damage of the car (which is roughly only 10% of our medical bills)

    after 3 years, my dad’s case is still ongoing. we got another lawyer last week and are already seeing results.

  120. ginnylavender says:

    This situation, and the comments, should be used in law schools to show how jurors’ minds work. It’s pretty fascinating.
    I’m curious–How many people would be able to smash a bus window with their fist? The guy had to be in a rage, and therefore scary.

  121. synergy says:

    @CaffeinatedSquint: No. The buses where I live only stop if there is someone standing at a stop or someone has rung the bell to get off at the next bus stop. Otherwise, they don’t stop.

  122. Rob says:

    @synergy: Trimet runs like that

  123. mac-phisto says:

    wow. just wow. hey, can we all miss the issue a little more? let me ask a quick question…you’re driving down the street & you run someone over. who’s at fault? you’re driving down the street & someone pounds on your window & you run them over. who’s at fault? you stop for a hitch-hiker & as she’s pulling on the handle, you realize that she’s really a he, so you start pulling away & run him over. who’s at fault?

    trimet is a public agency. why is philip having trouble with his information requests?

    & she was scared??!!? for the love of god, he has a kid in tow. is anyone honestly scared of the guy with the kid? he doesn’t look scary to me.

    50/50 is bullshit & you all know it. quit trying to dissect the issue. the operator of a vehicle is 100% responsible when they run someone over.

  124. mac-phisto says:

    philip, ianal, but a few tips for you: 1) if you haven’t already, file a freedom of information request for the “evidence” that you are having trouble seeking. you have recourse if they don’t provide it to you. 2) if you son’s special needs are documented, you may have a pretty good case for discrimination based on disability. i think the key here is whether your son’s condition has been diagnosed. you may have been run over; not him. but he was denied access, which is against the law.

  125. @mac-phisto: Let me ask you a question. Someone tries to get in your car while you are driving who you don’t know if he is armed. You try to drive away, and he BREAKS(with a kid in tow) your window with his fist. In the process, he trips and falls. You don’t swerve but continue driving away straight, and he falls under your tire. Will you be/Can we charge you with assault with a deadly weapon? Probably not. You were in fear of your safety. Another case in point. If some runs in front of your car, and you hit them, are you 100% responsible? If you think so, let me know where you live, and I’ll run into your car.

    As too the information he is requesting, in the terms of audio it is confidential, and also is covered under the fifth amendment in the right for TriMet not to incriminate itself. As to making TriMet supply a piece of glass for this gentleman to break, that is understandable. I am sure any competent attorney could research the specs for the window and find out breaking strength.

    As to an ADA request, it appears that when he asked to be let on the bus, the driver was having lunch, which more than likely means that the bus was not in service, and it probably is against the rules to let passengers pre-board a bus before it’s first pick up. There WAS a public library ~150 feet away that WAS open which would have a place suitable for changing. If you watch the video, he stands outside the bus door staring in/talking to the driver for about 5 minutes before the bus starts moving. I think that more than likely Phillip’s demeanor is what caused the driver to refuse admittance, not the fact that his son may or may not have a disability or a special need. According to their website, TriMet’s buses are all ADA compliant.

  126. mac-phisto says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: 1) yes, in my state the pedestrian has the right of way 100% of the time. if you run out in front of my car & i don’t stop, i am responsible. now i don’t live in oregon, but it’s pretty standard that the driver of a bus is 2) the audio is not confidential & public agencies don’t have fifth amendment rights. this is a public agency, not a private enterprise. FOIA covers everything you need to know (which is you have a right to know anything that isn’t protected by national security confidentiality). 3) i was not referring to his attempt to board the bus early. if the driver decided to board the bus around the corner from the stop to keep philip & his child from boarding, she was violating his right to access. by closing the doors so he could not board, she was denying his son’s right to access. section 202 of the ADA:

    Subject to the provisions of this title, no qualified individual with a disability shall, by reason of such disability, be excluded from participation in or be denied the benefits of the services, programs, or activities of a public entity, or be subjected to discrimination by any such entity.

    ADA compliance is not just about making service accessible to those with a disability. denial of service is discrimination.

  127. mac-phisto says:

    comment gremlins at it again!
    “that the driver of a bus is”… responsible not only for the passengers on the bus, but those individuals immediately outside the bus as well.

  128. burgundyyears says:

    @mac-phisto: It is not reasonable to ask a bus driver to accommodate a desire to change a kid’s dirty diaper in the bus itself. You might as well sue TriMet for failing to provide a meal on the bus that met his son’s needs. TriMet buses are neither diaper-changing facilities nor meal-serving facilities. You cannot invent categories of services you think they are supposed to provide and then cry discrimination when you request something unreasonable and inappropriate and are told you are not going to be allowed to use the service.

  129. @mac-phisto: Yes, a pedestrian has the right of way. But if they run out in front of you, you can not be responsible for their actions. Shall we also cite the driver for the broken window and the interfering with public transportation charges that were committed, and but for those CRIMINAL acts, this accident would not have happened?

    As to FOIA, according to this site:

    Q. Can I use FOIA to review documents from my state government?
    A. No. FOIA only applies to agencies of the federal government (note this means it also does not apply to Congress or the Judicial branch). It does not allow you to get information from state or local governments.

    TriMet is also a organizational corporation, not and agency, thus it’s .org and not .gov status.

    To the third point, the driver refused admittance onto the bus not due to the childs “special needs”, but rather the father’s attitude, and his admittance that he was going to break a policy. While there may not have been a written policy concerning changing children on a bus, I am sure the bus was not equipped with changing tables(which normally have belts to prevent falling). In TriMets own rule/policy on interdiction (found here), the driver is allowed to refuse admittance for many reasons. Of the few which I could see, allowing a child to be changed on a bus would violate:
    Part 2 section b, which states

    A finding that the directive contained in the Interdiction Command will mitigate the risk to the District Transit System security/order or the PHYSICAL SAFETY of a District employee, contractor or PASSENGER

    (The child could have slipped off whatever surface Phillip chose to change him on)

    Also, part 2, section c, subsection i

    ….Conduct the interferes with the safety and security of the District Transit system includes:
    …..
    (c) Hazardous or Toxic Materials or Substances

    Unless Phillip had a hazmat liquid for blood borne/bodily fluid pathogens(which is not a baby wipe), and generally take 10+ minutes to be considered effective, fecal matter is a hazardous substance(look at any of the articles on this site concerning food recalls). ALSO, I am a person with a low tolerance for the smell of fecal matter, and have vomited on smelling it. The driver can not know what effect the smell could have on other passengers, and if they had vomited, it would have been a further hazard for pathogens, as well as a slip hazard.

    The driver offered Phillip a alternative to changing the child on the bus, so she made ample accommodations. The bus was (I am speculating) NOT equipped with changing tables, Bio-hazard disposal containers, etc… There was a public library not 200 feet from the stop(to which Phillip can be seen walking to in under 40 seconds on the video), which had more proper facilities than the bus did, and which could have been used.

  130. I am sorry…

    The date was the 24th. Saturday (Seen on the video). The library was not open at the time. The coffee shop across the street was open, however, the bus was going to pull out around 3-4 mins on me arriving at the stop.

  131. @Phillip M. Vector: Thanks for the clarification on the date.

    Did the incident happen on 1st Street? You stated the next stop was 3-4 more blocks from where she stopped, and 2nd Street stop (by the Oldtown Coffee Station)is only one more block. The next stop after that is by the middle school. So was she skipping the 2nd street stop and going straight to the middle school?

  132. I think the breaking of the window was the “punctuation” of the event which led up to the drive off.

    @GitEmSteveDave: No, the bus started moving and THEN the window broke. In the video the background changes before the window is broken. The window breaking was not what caused her to drive off because the bus was already moving when it happened.

  133. @Rectilinear Propagation: Let me clarify. The breaking of the window was not the cause OF the drive off, but it shows why the drive off may have occurred. You cannot assert you were having a calm discourse with someone, then break a window with your fist. It was the “cherry on the top” or the “icing on the cake” which proves the threat she perceived.

  134. Saboth says:

    @LionelEHutz:

    Yes, like victims that lie on a train track waiting for a train, or victims that sniff glue hoping they get a high, but don’t die. I believe in Darwinism, sorry.

  135. Saboth says:

    @mac-phisto:

    I’ve got a few questions for you.

    You are driving down the street and a crazy guy jumps off the sidewalk out at your car when you get within 1 foot of him, and you run over him. Who’s at fault? You are at a stoplight, and a homeless guy crawls under your car while you watch the light and you run over him. Who’s at fault?

  136. mac-phisto says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: oregon has its own FOIA. i’d provide a link, but the one on oregon.gov appears to be broken (that’s ironic, isn’t it?). trimet is a municipal corporation. they are given explicit government powers & the board of directors is appointed by the governor of oregon (hence, a state agency). this is pretty standard for transportation around the country.

    “…not due to the childs “special needs”, but rather the father’s attitude, and his admittance that he was going to break a policy.” well, it’s kind of hard to determine all that from a video without sound, isn’t it? philip doesn’t appear to make threatening gestures or do anything out of the ordinary. & i don’t even hear a conversation about changing diapers. i DO see a driver deny access & then ignore safe practices by pulling away while two individuals (one a child) are located in close proximity to it.

    @Phillip M. Vector: maybe you can respond to GitEmSteveDave better than i. were you issued an interdiction command (seen in the pdf that he references here -> [trimet.org] check page 5 for the piece of paper you would have received), or did ms. crabtree just slam the doors in your face & proceed to pull away from an unauthorized stop (that she chose to create) with an individual & young child dangerously close?

    incidentally, i have an acquaintance that was run down by a SEPTA bus (bus ran a red light while he was in a crosswalk). these agencies are usually protected by tort caps, so you may run into a problem if the amount you’re seeking exceeds the cap (in his case, he ended up paying for $75,000 of his medical bills).

  137. 113COP says:

    People, people…where’s the love? A guy got run over by a bus here – whether or not you think he’s an idiot or fat or whatever – he got run over by a bus. Hey lots of us are overweight – there is no correlation between IQ and weight that I know of.
    In the area I come from, bus drivers have policing powers (much like pilots which someone mentioned) – they can detain people, confiscate material from people, deny people service, detain people for arrest. They are trained in all this. They are professionals. They are supposedly trained in how to deal with the public in all sorts of situations – good and bad. We don’t have wimpy people who are afraid of their own shadow driving a bus. But then again that is because we have frequent criminal activity on our transit lines – therefore you take the job – you know what you are dealing with. I am not familiar with the area that Philip is from so I can’t speak to whether or not the circumstances are similar. Our bus drivers are also regularly tested as to their driving skills and any brush with the law will likely get them fired.
    Yes, Philip you should have been more careful especially with your son with you (Thank God he was not injured) but at the same time – you didn’t deserve to be run over and the bus driver has no excuse for her either lack of driving skill and/or her poor judgement and/or her lack of professionalism. She shouldn’t have put the bus in motion with any pedestrians in such close proximity to the bus. Regardless, you said charges are pending against you (and well maybe they should be – I can’t speak to that) but for the driver to get off scott free?? Sorry – that’s wrong. Think about it…

  138. yes, in my state the pedestrian has the right of way 100% of the time.

    @mac-phisto: Are you sure? What about those walk lights at intersections? Pedestrians are legally allowed to enter the crosswalk even when the sign is instructing them not to in your state?

    Yes, a pedestrian has the right of way. But if they run out in front of you, you can not be responsible for their actions.

    @GitEmSteveDave & @Phillip M. Vector: In my state, not only is the driver not responsible for accidents caused by the pedestrian (not giving driver time to stop or not having the right of way) but the pedestrian can get into legal trouble for it. A little over a month ago a girl was given a citation after getting hit by a bus (walking into the path of a vehicle).

    Perhaps that’s what the “Interfering with Public Transportation” thing is?

  139. @mac-phisto:
    In the main article above:
    So I mentioned to her that I could change the diaper now (there was no place to change him outside as the area had no bench and had pretty sharp rocks along the side of the road), or I could change it while on the bus.”

    This was AFTER she turned down his request to change him on the bus. So since he states he would change it after being allowed on the bus, that is a statement of intent.

    As to the child endangerment, after being denied boarding ( I admit I was wrong in citing the interdiction rules. An interdiction requires you to be ON TriMet property. What the driver did was use Trimet code 28.20: “
    Enforcement.
    A. Any peace officer, Inspector, vehicle operator, or District Rail Controller, has the authority to refuse entrance on a District Vehicle, or District Station, require departure from a District Vehicle or District Station, or to require a seating change, of any person who violates any provision of TMC 28.15, regardless of location and regardless of presentation of pass, transfer, ticket, or valid payment of fare.

    This DOES NOT require an issuance of any paper ticket. 28.15 is chock full of interesting things, such as 28.15 A(7) Noxious Fumes or Foul-Smelling Materials or Substances: No person shall carry aboard a District Vehicle any substance or material emitting a foul smell or releasing noxious fumes.
    &
    (12) Corrosive and Soiling Substances: No person shall carry upon a District Vehicle any corrosive material or soiling substance where containment of such substance cannot be guaranteed.

    Also 28.15 D
    (5) Hazardous and Toxic Material or Substances: No person shall carry, possess or transport any hazardous material, toxic chemical, combustible liquid, biological contagion or agent, radioactive substance or any other inherently dangerous substance onto a District Vehicle or other District property unless the person is a District employee or authorized personnel acting in the course of employment.
    &
    (6) Harassment and Intimidation:
    (a) While on a District platform or Vehicle, no person shall engage in harassment through a course of conduct which places another person in reasonable fear of imminent physical harm, including, but not limited to, following such person around or about the Vehicle or platform, or by preventing or delaying the movement or departure of such person through coercion or intimidation
    )

    Phillip brought the child INTO a dangerous situation by trying to board the bus after being refused. In a hypothetical, if Phillip had a gun, and pulled it out and started firing into the bus, under your view, the driver could not remove herself or the passengers from harms way because he had a child with him. While he did not have a gun, the driver stated she felt in danger, and as stated by actual TriMet riders above, the doors on a bus can be opened from the outside, so she reacted the same way to protect herself. In reality, by doing what he did, he opens himself up for child endangerment, as well as creating an unsafe environment for the passenger who was trying to board behind them, since “but for” his actions, this whole event would never have happened.

  140. @Rectilinear Propagation:

    Perhaps that’s what the “Interfering with Public Transportation” thing is?

    I think had to do with him trying to board the bus after being refused admission, and causing a scene.

    @113COP: The lady is a bus driver, not a cop. She applied to drive a bus, not fight crime. She isn’t armed. As to putting the bus in motion, it was not before she closed the doors. She closed the doors, THEN moved the bus. He then CHASED the bus, whereupon after breaking a window, tripped, and fell under the back wheels. If he had not chased the bus, the incident would not have happened. I would side with the “victim” if he had been walking in front of the bus, and was hit. Or if the driver opened the door after letting him get on, and pushed him out the door backwards while moving. But he caused his own injuries. There has to be SOME personal responsibility in this world. This is one case.

  141. MeOhMy says:

    @mac-phisto: Not sure what state you’re in but in NJ, no pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield. Nothing contained herein shall relieve a pedestrian from using due care for his safety.

    I’m pretty certain this is common wording in most places.

    I always hated those “Yield to pedestrians in crosswalk” signs because it seems to lead people to believe they can just step out in front of moving vehicles.

  142. 113COP says:

    @Gitemstevedave: No one said she had to fight crime and you are right she did apply to drive a bus. Something she is obviously not adept at. Bus big, person small. Yes Philip acted irresponsibly but so did she. My point, which you missed, is that she shares the blame. Also, there is no way that she didn’t know that she ran him over (either she saw it in her mirrors) or someone on the bus had to have told her. She had a duty in that case to seek medical attention for him, which I believe she did not. She also left the scene of an accident which in my state, your fault or not, is a misdemeanor.

  143. @GitEmSteveDave: Oh.

    i don’t even hear a conversation about changing diapers.
    @mac-phisto: It’s in the text below the video:

    She said that it was against TriMet policy to change a diaper on the bus and to use the bathrooms across the street…So I mentioned to her that I could change the diaper now (there was no place to change him outside as the area had no bench and had pretty sharp rocks along the side of the road), or I could change it while on the bus.

    were you issued an interdiction command…or did ms. crabtree just slam the doors in your face & proceed to pull away from an unauthorized stop (that she chose to create) with an individual & young child dangerously close?

    I’m not sure what’s meant by interdiction, but he did say in the text:

    After about 5 mins., the bus pulled forward and the driver announced that I wasn’t allowed to board the bus.

    There seem to be several commentors who live in the same area. Does anyone know whether it is normal for the buses to stop places where they can’t pull over to the curb? I would think the driver could get in trouble for asking passengers to board in an unsafe manner (making them walking into the street and in between cars). However, if all the bus stops are like that then they’ll probably say it doesn’t matter that it wasn’t a real bus stop.

  144. I Will Not Stop Feeding My Fat Baby says:

    @113COP: If you watch the full video you see that she did not leave the scene. He mentions the police were involved and apparently they didn’t file any charges against the driver.

  145. @113COP: Well, not to doubt Phillip, but since a few items in his account have proven wrong(being calm, how long the bus waited after his convo, he was the last passenger, that there were cars in front of the door when she stopped), I would like to know more about the injury. He stated in a previous post that the skin was ripped from his leg. Depending on how/what occurred, it is plausible for the driver not to know that a part of Phillip had been run over, but that he had simply fallen. Assume the back wheel has three to four inches of travel, and the bus weight is a few tons. Either his leg was in line or at a 90 degree angle to the path of the wheel. If in line, and the wheel went over just his calf, then I don’t think the whole bus would have “jumped” in the air like if you ran over a whole person. If at a 90 degree angle, and it rolled over the bottom half of his leg, then there might be a noticeable “bump” in the ride of the bus.

    As to leaving the scene, she stopped the bus and you can see other passengers/pedestrians and even the driver herself on phones. In watching video, at time 15:54:19, you can see Phillip at the back wheel. At 15:54:21, the bus is almost stopped, and by 15:54:22, the bus is at a COMPLETE stop. Stopping within two-three seconds of the incident isn’t leaving the scene. It is about the time it takes to brake. At 15:54:47, she is on the phone. I think 25 seconds after the accident to be calling for help is WELL within the acceptable time to start seeking attention/help for Phillip.

  146. mac-phisto says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: so, according to trimet policy, i could be denied boarding if i have a colostomy bag? riiiiight. methinks trimet is trying to deny boarding to people carrying gasoline containers & the like with 28.15, not dirty diapers.

    this talk of guns is irrelevant to the case. no one suspected him of having a gun. the driver claimed she felt scared, but offers no evidence to prove/disprove her claim. absent of evidence, it has no bearing. perhaps the audio track (or other passengers) would tell a different story. who knows? you can’t just assume that her claim is valid without supporting evidence. unless, of course, you’re one of those that agrees with the unchecked authority of the state.

    @Troy F.: i live in conn. here, it’s not yield for pedestrians, it’s STOP for pedestrians, but this case has little to do w/ the standard pedestrian right-of-way laws & more to do with a cdl-class bus drivers’ responsibilities before s/he pulls away from a stop…i’m sure oregon has some laws dealing with this to mitigate circumstances such as the one we see here.

    @Rectilinear Propagation: i read the post, i was simply trying to point out that the video alone does not prove/disprove anything regarding threats, gestures, diapers or otherwise. if i were on a jury, philip would win. the evidence supports his story. the driver pulls away w/o verifying that people are clear & someone gets hurt.

  147. @mac-phisto: To your colostomy bag, that is a medical device, which is designed to not rupture unless abused. Diapers can not be depended on to hold their contents. I have heard many reports of them leaking. Any parents out there who can confirm? And since gasoline has it’s own heading, I’m guessing they meant it for the words they wrote it with.

    What evidence can you produce to prove she wasn’t scared. You obviously have more info than the rest of us here, because you have apparently contacted her, since she didn’t provide you with the evidence that she was scared. Or are you basing her account on Phillips telling of what happened? As for stating that I support someones “claim without supporting evidence”,

    if i were on a jury, philip would win. the (one sided, un-corroborated) evidence supports his story.

    Hrmm, I guess your just as guilty as I.

    As to you finding for him, I hope you never make it on a jury. You have decided the case on one side of the account, which beside the fact is baised towards Phillip, can be proven inaccurate just by watching the video. We do not know the other side of the story, or what the investigation entailed. Hell, in all my tellings of the tickets I got, I was always wronged by the “evil-unchecked authority of the state”, even though I did do 93 in a 65 zone.

  148. @mac-phisto: Sorry I forgot to address this, but true, he did not have a gun. BUT IF HE DID, would your opinion be any different about this case? The driver did not know Phillip, and I have been in his same shoes back when I worked in a job were I was the only male. I’m 5′ 10″, and at the time, weighed 240ish. Upon meeting me, many of the women felt intimidated by me. After getting to know me though, they realized that I was just a lovable big furrball. Even though he says he was calm, he punched and broke the window of a bus. I think that shows he has some strength, and he was not at oneness with his calm center.

    It is reasonable to assume that someone could feel in fear of/intimidated by a 300+ lb upset emotional male, and react accordingly to a perceived threat.

  149. MeOhMy says:

    @mac-phisto: In Connecticut…
    No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb, sidewalk, crosswalk or any other place of safety adjacent to or upon a roadway and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close to such pedestrian as to constitute an immediate hazard to such pedestrian.

    I know this has little to do with the actual topic of the post, but you specifically said:

    in my state the pedestrian has the right of way 100% of the time. if you run out in front of my car & i don’t stop, i am responsible.

    And that is simply not true.

  150. mac-phisto says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: dangnabit! captured by my own device! looks like there’s a lot of presumption to go around!

    i understand your pov, i just can’t agree with it. in my eyes, philip’s biggest mistake was opening his mouth in the first place. parents truck kids with dirty diapers around all the time – presuming that a child is a class 3 biohazard seems a little silly to me. if i were in philip’s shoes, i’d be pursuing multiple avenues to recover my losses. philip’s site says he’ll be releasing more & more info as time goes on. perhaps that will paint a more complete picture.

    i guess we can agree on one thing – nobody wants me to be on a jury! $5/day doesn’t go too far in the nutmeg state!

  151. mac-phisto says:

    @Troy F.: actually, we have lots of laws here. no lie, i’ve been involved in more than one incident where MULTIPLE people were cited. the last accident i was involved in, 4 people were ticketed (tickets = municipal revenue). in the pedestrian case, a pedestrian could be cited for running out in front of a car, but the operator of the car would also be cited depending on the situation. for example, take Sec. 14-300d:

    Operator of a vehicle required to exercise due care to avoid pedestrian. Notwithstanding any provisions of the general statutes or any regulations issued thereunder, sections 14-299, 14-300, 14-300b to 14-300e, inclusive, or any local ordinance to the contrary, each operator of a vehicle shall exercise due care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian or person propelling a human powered vehicle and shall give a reasonable warning by sounding a horn or other lawful noise emitting device to avoid a collision. A violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

    towns & cities also have local ordinances that are enforced by the state central ticketing bureau, so the pedestrian laws could be even more stringent than what’s listed in title 14. in my town, they just painted crosswalks every five feet & the cops pull people over that don’t stop.

  152. MeOhMy says:

    @mac-phisto:

    50/50 is bullshit & you all know it. quit trying to dissect the issue. the operator of a vehicle is 100% responsible when they run someone over.

    in the pedestrian case, a pedestrian could be cited for running out in front of a car, but the operator of the car would also be cited depending on the situation.

    So the driver is NOT always 100% responsible and perhaps the divided responsibility is indeed appropriate.

  153. @mac-phisto: I think releasing more information is actually a bad idea. He has already stated that attorney’s have dropped his case. If this case came to trial, and he says something OTHER than what he has written here, and in other comments around the web, it can be used against him and destroy his credibility. Especially since the video seems to contradict many things he states as fact in his account. When you put something out on the web, it stays around. There was a case in NY where an ex-FBI guy was charged with some stuff. The prime witness gave testimony, and a reporter who had interviewed her years before for a book heard it, and new it differed from what she told him. He provided the tapes, and she was destroyed on stand. She didn’t think there was a record of what she had said, and no one would know she changed her story. The case was thrown out of court b/c of this.

    In admitting things here, he could very well lose any case. I was all for this guy UNTIL I saw the video. When it started to contradict his account, I ceased feeling sorry, and became suspicious. In the end, it seems like someone was pissed off, got angry, and due to loss of cool, unfortunately got hurt.

    I always try to look at things like this like they do at an airplane crash or major accident. In most situations, there is a “cascade failure”. One event leads to another, and but for one event, the cascade would have ceased. Most of the failures in this situation fall on Phillip. He asked first(It’s sometimes easier to apologize then defy), he stood outside the bus for awhile when he could have went to use a bathroom(the bus runs on a schedule, he knew when it would be there), he got upset, he ran after the bus, etc… The driver just wanted to do her route, and didn’t seem to have malice in her actions. She refused admission because she thought he would violate a policy, which while not explicitly written, is covered under their codes. It was not due to his son having a disability, or anything else. When faced with a passenger who did not accept her authority, which he agrees to by taking the bus, and thereby not allowing other people to board, she reacted. I think it is telling that she didn’t let other people board or open the door. I do believe she reacted in a way which showed some un-easiness at what Phillip’s actions could turn out to be. She drove to the next corner, and let all of the passengers she could on, and when Phillip approached, shut the door, and drove off. She not only left Phillip, but a woman next/behind him. It is also telling that the woman was not harmed, which shows that Phillip entered the “zone of danger” w/his son intentionally, which resulted in his injuries. If the driver had swerved to the right, and squished all three against a car, that is malice. If he had gotten IN FRONT of the bus, and she drove, that would be malicious also.

    Here’s an example that I believe fits, and I will, if this ever happens to me, never sue. Let’s suppose I go to catch a train. At the station, the conductor sees me smoking a cigar. I ask if I can finish my cigar on the train. The conductor says no. It violates a rule, and I can finish it outside. I disagree, and say “Since I don’t have enough time to do it out here, I’m going to do it on the train”. The conductor refuses to open the doors, and there are other passengers waiting. He tells the engineer to pull the train down the tracks some, so that he can let the other passengers board. As the train goes down the tracks, I follow it, along with the other passengers, down the platform. After the train stops, and the door opens and lets some people on, I am nearing the door, and while a short distance(not in my face, but within ~5 feet)away, the conductor closes the door, and the train starts moving. I then run after the train, and in the process of trying to get my hand in the door to wedge myself in, I run into a light post/fence at the end of the platform, go over the edge, and fall close enough to the tracks and wheels, that something gets crushed. Upon seeing this, the conductor stops the train and calls for help. Who would be at fault there?

  154. @GitEmSteveDave: Oh yeah, in the example, I don’t have a child, but my Ex-Girlfriend, who was a psycho, and a little on the portly side, so she kinda waddled when she walked(this is ALL true, no sarcasm used). She’s as close as I can come to a special needs person. I am dragging her along during this whole situation. Sorry for not including that earlier.

  155. mac-phisto says:

    @Troy F.: i guess, man. congratulations on your dissection, oh master of discourse. here’s your trophy —>

    @GitEmSteveDave: you got it man. exactly the same circumstance. oh. except not smoking on a train is a clear policy that is explicitly stated (smoking on the platform is also usually not allowed), whereas the no dirty diaper policy is not a policy but is a policy b/c of a policy that the nonpolicy can fit into to become a policy when it’s not actually a policy. got it. i’m still a little confused, but i think i get it. i mean…at least, as long as your psycho ex had a thongful of poo. if not, i think the hypothetical would be a little too much for me to wrap my head around.

  156. burgundyyears says:

    @mac-phisto: So you’re saying you need a specific direction and/or explicitly stated policy NOT to change your child’s poopy diaper on a PUBLIC BUS? I suppose they need to have labels on the rails in a bus stating not to let your children hang upside down from them too. Please. Reasonable people can infer these things are not appropriate for a public bus. Even less clueful people can take a hint when they are told NO and the bus driver goes out of her way to AVOID YOU. And then there’s this case.

  157. @mac-phisto: I chose smoking, because while not dangerous, many people find it offensive, and can cause a reaction in some(coughing for smoke, dry heaves/vomiting for fecal smell) that are generally not too nice.

    And in researching just a little further concerning your “It’s not a policy that is stated clearly because it’s a non policy that policy makers politicized” comment, I searched the code again, AND:
    28.15 Part B,

    (3) Refuse and Waste: No person shall discard or deposit or leave any rubbish, trash, debris, offensive substance or other solid or liquid waste in or upon a District Vehicle, District Station or District Parking Facility, except in receptacles provided for that purpose. No person shall spit, defecate, or urinate in or upon a District Vehicle, District Station or District Parking Facility, except in the confines of a lavatory where lavatories are available for public use.

    Now “solid waste” might not be clear enough for you, I understand, but MOST of the world understands that to mean feces,scat, etc…. Just like when they say no smoking, it is understood they mean cigarettes, cigars, pipes, spliffs, bindi’s, etc…. even though they don’t use all of those terms. So the analogy is spot on I think. I await your response.

  158. Gitemstevedave, I’ll simply say this.

    I didn’t deposit it on the bus and in fact, I didn’t want to deposit it on the bus. Therefore, the trimet code you quote is not valid in this case.

  159. Rob says:

    @Phillip M. Vector: No, but you showed intent to. Not to mention other Codes were quoted as well, not to mention that the bus driver can refuse service to anyone and code states that you need to take it up later and not act insane. (Same with fare dispute)

  160. derobert says:

    @Phillip M. Vector: Although it seems to me that your attorney’s conclusion that the case is not winnable is probably correct, I’ve got to wonder:

    (6) (a) if they disposed of evidence, why didn’t your attorney complain of spoliation to the court?

    (6) (b) when they decided a window is “confidential”, why didn’t your attorney file a motion to compel? Or contact the bus manufacturer; is this not an off-the-shelf item?

    (7) The sound would be extremely important to making your case. Even more than the window, I suspect. I have to wonder why your lawyer didn’t ask the court to compel disclosure. It could even be reviewed confidentially by experts; courts handle confidential documents all the time.

    Did you stop after asking politely? That’s where subpoenas, discovery, and motions to compel come in.

    (8) So what? Just means you can show him to be wrong at trial. Or, if you can prove he lied (and wasn’t just honestly mistaken), sue him for making false statements to the police.

    BTW: As for (6) and (7), I don’t see any reason your public defender couldn’t do the same.

    Last thing, if you still intend to pursue legal action, you may want to refrain from commenting without speaking to a lawyer, your answers could come back to haunt you.

  161. @derobert: As to 6, I’m sure that after taking pictures of the broken window, and video of him breaking it, they disposed of it as trash. It’s not often in court trials they walk in with a tub full of glass shards. They show pictures of the crack pattern, and where the shards landed, etc..
    to 6b, I’m not sure if they are required to provide him a new glass pane to break. I agree that the specs are probably freely available from the manufacturers, as it has to meet DOT and some other requirements.

    on 7, If they released the video, and not the audio, I’m sure that they were within their rights for whatever reason not to release it. It may have contained privileged information between the bus driver and the dispatcher/supervisor/council, or maybe to release it, they would require releases from all parties concerned, and they were never obtained.

    as to 8, a Trimet supervisor is not a doctor. That person gave a statement to a police officer. I don’t think it’s considered expert testimony, but as their opinion/account of what happened. If only his skin/muscle was injured, and not any bones, it is reasonable for someone to assume that they may have gotten their leg caught on the bumper of either the bus or another vehicle, and that’s what caused the injury. The image of a bus running over a limb usually brings to mind bones being crushed, and if his leg was intact structure wise, then that is why they could assume it wasn’t run over(This happened to me story: I had my front teeth knocked out by someone. The way it happened was freaky, but it also happened in such a manner, that I didn’t have any other injuries like a split lip, bleeding, swelling, etc. When I got to the ER, I signed in and was waiting in the waiting room. I kept on being passed over for some cases that were not as serious as mine. At one point after two hours or so, the admitting nurse saw me leaning against the door, and asked “Why are you here?” I opened my mouth to show here my one missing & one half missing front tooth. She immediatly said “What’s your name, and I’ll get you right in.” I guess since I didn’t present with a classic dental tramua, she didn’t know who I was from reading the files on her desk, but must have assumed I had just “chipped or split a tooth”. So the presentation can fool even experts). I’m sure the doctors submitted a report, and it was presented into evidence along with all the other accounts. Also, if the account listed above by Phillip is the one he gave police, HE could get in trouble for giving false statements, because the video DOES call into question some of the events he described.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the “keep your mouth shut if it’s being recorded” statement. The back of my car insurance card clearly states “Don’t talk/give info to ANYONE except police and/or YOUR agent.” I was in a car accident witnessed BY a police officer. After the accident, some friends of mine whom I was going to see came to the accident scene, and while talking to them, the cop came over to get my side. During the convo, he said “I saw the whole thing, the guy came out without checking the road, and was all his fault”. After the cop walked away, I leaned over to my friends and said “Did you ALL hear the cop say it was his fault?” They said yes, and I immediatly felt 100% better about the whole thing. I even shook the guy who I hit’s hand and said “no hard feelings”. If the guy ever fought the account, I had 2-3 witnesses in addition to myself who heard the cop say it was all his fault.

  162. laddibugg says:

    Changing a baby is one thing….no way in hell do i want to see a FOUR YEAR OLD being changed, special needs or not!

  163. Elle Rayne says:

    @HeHateMe: He said, “It was the last bus that would’ve gotten us there while it was still open).”

  164. Elle Rayne says:

    @phloighd: I agree, there are always some nasties waiting to dump on the victims. Troopers for companies’ rights, or maybe just bullies who moved from the playground to the Internet.

  165. Elle Rayne says:

    @laddibugg: Well, it isn’t really about what you want, is it? This is a discussion about victims’ rights and accountability, not whether the average bus rider enjoys smelling/watching a diaper change (and as another reader noted, smell is often an issue on the bus, and I daresay that the unpleasantness of a diaper change passes quickly — B.O. does not).

  166. derobert says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: #6 I’d suspect that normally, he’d want his experts to be able to examine the glass. Not being an expert, I have no idea if that can be done from the photographs taken.

    #7: That’d maybe apply for a public release, but this would be a release, under seal, to his expert(s) for review. So there would be no confidentiality problems. Either way, though, it’s up to the judge, and the bus co. can’t just refuse; the judge has to let them.

  167. burgundyyears says:

    @songbird6: So it’s not really what one person wants, it’s really just about what some other person wants? Oh, and if you’re injured, it’s all someone else’s fault. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

  168. @derobert: And what would the experts say? If there was a structual defect in the glass, it’s easy to check on the batch that was installed in that bus, and see if there was a recall/reports of spontanous breaking. The fact that it is on video being hit, and shatters, just goes to show it was in fact hit, and shattered due to the hit. The photos would show the impact point, and the spread pattern. It was probably also more damaged on it’s being removed, which would negate it’s value.

    As to audio, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what, if anything was being recorded. Trimet has over 600 buses. I don’t know the rough figure, but since the video is one frame per second, what would the sampling rate on audio be? And where would the mics be located? If you figure two mics on the bus, recording at 96@700k a minute, for 12 hours would be about ~1 gig a day. If half the fleet just ran for only twelve hours a day, that would be a daily storage rate of ~300 gigs of just audio a day. Then we add on the video footage recording, and that’s a lot of data to be transferring back and forth, and storing/retaining for some legislative length time. I think more than likely, the audio is a dispatcher recording. But I could be wrong.

  169. derobert says:

    @GitEmSteveDave: Well, more like 650MB/day. Though if speech is being recorded, it’d be far less – speex goes down to 2.5kbps (26 MB/day). Even less if you use voice detection. Either way, the post says the audio exists.

    (Of course, it being irrelevant audio could be a reason his lawyer didn’t force the issue.)