StubHub Releases Names Of 13,000 Ticket Resellers To Patriots

The New England Patriots last week received the names of 13,000 people who bought or sold Pats tickets through StubHub. Season ticket holders are rightly concerned that the Pats may now revoke the subscriptions of those who circumvented the Pats’ own Ticketmaster-run system.

A Massachusetts judge ordered StubHub to release the names last year, a ruling that was affirmed last week by the state Appeals Court.

Diane, a season ticket holder who asked not to be identified for fear of being targeted by the Patriots, said she sold some of her seats on StubHub to help defray the cost of purchasing them.

“It’s my ticket, and I should be able to do whatever I want with it,” she said.

The Patriots view their tickets as revocable licenses that they control. The team currently prohibits resales anywhere but on the team’s website, which is run by Ticketmaster and requires fans to sell their tickets at face value.

Mike, another season ticket holder who attempted to sell tickets on StubHub and requested anonymity, said he didn’t appreciate the Patriots going to court to obtain private information about him.

But other sports fans applauded the Patriots for trying to prevent season ticket holders from making enormous profits on their tickets.

“Whatever happened to buying tickets for the games you want to go to, rather than buying them so that you can resell them and essentially price the average blue collar fan out of going to a game,” said Sean Duke-Crocker of Brookline.

Do you agree with the team or the ticket holders? Tell us in the comments.

Patriots season ticket holders fear being put on hot seat [Boston Globe]
(Photo: Paul Keleher)

Comments

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  1. Firstborn Dragon says:

    Total BS. Why?

    1) IF the team is making a cut off of the tickets sold on the TM site (Or if the seller has to pay a fee) then I’d say that’s wrong. They can take 50% of the profits or more, and the ticket holder can do nothing.

    2) I think it’s rather foolish about the comment that these resellers are forcing the normal person out of the stadium. If it’s a popular game, maybe. But I don’t buy the stories that season ticket holders get 100% of the tickets in a stadium. I know when my aunt had seasons tickets to the Argos, they were ordinary seats. Nice seats, yes. But they were still in the normal stadium area. So these people can go and buy their own tickets. They don’t HAVE to buy resale.

    3) SUPPLY AND DEMAND! Really, if these people can resale at the profit they’re asking, then it’s their business. Really, it;s no diffrent then someone ordering a block of tickets when the box office first opens and resales them. Only difference is you can go after the season ticket holders, you CAN’T go after the scalpers who buy blocks.

    Bottom line? I really can’t see any reason this matters. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that the team gets a cut of every ticket resold using their system. So not ONLY do they make a profit off of the seasons ticket holder’s original payment, they ALSO make a cut off of the ticket holder’s resale.

    I bet they make more money off of a by game price then a season’s pass, and just want to push people into buying a ticket for a game rather then the seasons tickets.

  2. mordecai1908 says:

    Every day, the Patriots remind me more and more of the New York Yankees. And not in a good way.

  3. stanfrombrooklyn says:

    Professional sports fans are suckers. The players, owners, corporations, and entertainment providers are all working together to turn professional sports into nothing but corporate entertainment while draining the fan dry. Someday we’ll have a situation where a city will have to raise their sales taxes just to give a 1-year extension to A Rod.

  4. gamecockbo says:

    I like the fact that the Patriots are trying to get rid of scum bag scalpers, online and in front of the stadium. However, I don’t think they should be going after people in their own fan base. Send out a warning to all ticket owners.

  5. morganlh85 says:

    I’m leaning on the ticketholders’ side of the scale here. However I certainly don’t condone the ridiculous scalping to tickets that occurs on Stubhub and other sites. If I’m an average fan and I can’t go to a game, I should be able to resell my ticket. However I do think it should be limited to face value. The main reason I side with the ticketholders, though, is the Pats’ required use of the Ticketmaster outlet. I cannot stand that company and their “convenience fees.”

  6. DaWezl says:

    Besides the clauses about scalping, there’s also a huge risk in reselling your tickets to random people. If the buyers happen to be obnoxious drunks and get themselves ejected from the game, you can find YOUR tickets being revoked. Most of the STH that I know for major sports end up purchasing a ‘share’ of a season ticket. They get so many games per season, and if they can’t make one, they trade with another member of the share.

  7. Boberto says:

    A steady erosion of ownership rights. Music with DRM linked to one device. Software that expires and also can be shut down remotely.

    Now this. We really can’t own anything. I’ll just lease another car, plug in my ipod and boot up Vista. Wait-here’s my credit card number so you can go ahead and charge me monthly in perpetuity.

  8. LoneRider says:

    I am really mixed on this one. Living in Dallas means that if I want to go to a game I have no choice but to go to a scalper as the Cowboys are perma-sold-out. So, I Tivo the games and FF through the commercials.

    But to say that the tickets have to be kept reasonable for the average man is like say Mercedes has to lower the price of the SLR65 to $45K for the average man as well.

    Yeah it sucks not being able to afford the events I might want to go to, but, at least for now we are still living in a free market based economy. Although Hillary is doing her best to change that. Hey, maybe stopping ticket scalping will be her socialist promise for next week :-) (Ducking for cover)

  9. GoSocks says:

    Fact of the matter is, these tickets are revocable licenses, as the Pats claim. The Pats aren’t doing anything they, or any other team , are not allowed to do. Next time you go to a game, just flip your ticket over and read all of the other stuff the evil sports corporations won’t let you do. I love (sarc) Stanfrombrooklyn’s communist manifesto, but the pats are just doing what they, and every team, has every right to do. A fan doesn’t lease the seat, and they can’t sublease it for a greater amount. Other than that, I agree with everything else lonerider wrote.

  10. GrantGannon says:

    @LoneRider: Went to the Cowboys-Patriots game last week. Paid $300 a ticket for the opportunity.

    I think it is unfortunate that so much of today’s ticket marketplace belongs to ticket brokers and people who purchase tickets with no other purpose but to scalp them. The recent stories about Hannah Montana tickets are shameful to read.

    Still I agree that if a season ticket holder has tickets to a popular game and wants to sell them to the highest bidder, he should be allowed to do so. There are plenty of people who buy season tickets and sell the one big game to offset the cost of the entire season.

  11. lastingsmilledge says:

    the fine folks at stubhub need to watch a certain DVD featuring carmelo anthony.

  12. zarembisty says:

    Living in Boston I for one applaud this effort by the Patriots. Patriots games are very popular and getting tickets at face value is virtually impossible. I would rather not be able to get tickets at all knowing that everyone who purchased them before me went to enjoy the game as opposed to having hundreds of assholes buying the tickets only to sell them at an enormous profit. I understand an occasional ticket sale in case you can’t make it to the game, or even if you don’t feel like it, but what’s so wrong about selling them at face value just to make your money back?? If you don’t want to sell it through the Patriots system, just ask around – there are plenty of people who would purchase the tickets at face or even slightly above the face value. But a 1000% profit is just a bit to ridiculous.

    I hope that some people will lose their season tickets over this. That would make the 50,000 strong waiting list for the Patriots season tickets a bit shorter.

  13. JKinNYC says:

    ♦@Firstborn Dragon: It is impossible to get tickets to American football any other way. Your comparison is about as valid as comparing ticket sales to ManU games and LA Galaxy games. Different leagues, different games. The waiting list for season tickets for most teams stretches into the decades. If teams CAN sell season tickets, they do, rather than individual games.

    The Pats are essentially saying “if you don’t abide by the contract we have pertaining to these tickets, we’ll give them to someone who will.” They could abuse it, or they could use the info to go after ticket brokers and revoke their tickets. Their actions remain to be seen, but So far, all they have done is identify people that have willfully broken a contract with them.

  14. JKinNYC says:

    Consider this text from the New York Jets website:
    “How can I buy tickets to a home game?

    The New York Jets are sold out a season ticket basis. There are no individual game tickets available. If you are not a season ticket holder, please consider joining our Waitlist. is an annual fee of $50 to join and remain on the waitlist. There are currently more than 10,000 people on our Waitlist.”

    In other words, no season tickets, no way to get to a game. Except for maybe 4-5 teams out of 32, this is what you’d find. The Pats may actually be doing this to protect their fans from scalpers here. Not unreasonable. We will see.

  15. drewheyman says:

    It was just coincidental that a large number of the names released belonged to the players on the teams the Patriots will play later on this season, including every member of the Jets & Colts.

    Well, send in the Pinkertons with billy clubs to bash the guilty’s heads.

  16. magic8ball says:

    @JKinNYC: An annual fee of $50 to be on the waitlist? Wow. So, 10K people x $50 per person = $500K per year from people who don’t get to actually go to the games? I am clearly in the wrong business. Hey, everybody, I can put you on a waitlist with the exact same benefits for only $20 a year. You can make the check out to me personally.

  17. RvLeshrac says:

    @LoneRider:

    You can’t whine about the free market and then praise the free market with the same breath.

    @JKinNYC:

    So they make $500,000 every year for utterly no work whatsoever. Now that’s healthy.

    ——————–

    Seriously, the problem here is simple: If you don’t want fans scalping your tickets, don’t make them ridiculously expensive in the first place, or don’t offer season tickets at all.

    Better idea: No season tickets at all, and limits on tickets to one per person, per name, IDs checked at the gate (except on children, obviously), with refunds and transfers available to those who can’t make the game.

    Best idea: Sell tickets at the gate, and only at the gate. You buy a ticket, you enter the stadium.

    But then, of course, they couldn’t overbook, charge money for “waiting lists,” or set up their own ticket resale sites to screw the consumer. Not to mention the non-refundable tickets and laws against scalping – imagine that, a law forbidding you from selling your property, ever, under any circumstances, for more than you paid.

    Hell, at least if we passed that as a general law, I might be able to buy two or three dozen classic cars!

  18. JKinNYC says:

    @magic8ball: Yeah that’s crazy. But “supposedly” it has reduced the waiting list to ~10 years from about $30. I don’t think the Giants charge. But they DO require you to be on the list to buy tickets through their official site.

    @RvLeshrac: “If you don’t want fans scalping your tickets, don’t make them ridiculously expensive in the first place,”

    Um. You don’t understand supply and demand at all. THere are ONLY 8 home games every year. For most teams, they are ALWAYS sold out. Always. Far more people want tickets than there are available (This is why preseason games even sell out). If tickets were cheaper, there would be even MORE profit motive to scalp. To stop scalping by changing the price, you’d actually have to increase price to the point that demand matched available seats.

  19. TPK says:

    The toughest NFL line? These waiting lists
    [www.msnbc.msn.com]

    Yes, it is clear that some folks are not aware of just how hard it is (impossible, actually) to get tickets for some teams. Several years ago, I read a report of someone on the Redskins list actually moving down one year. Nobody ever had an explanation for how that happened.

    I had not heard that some teams charged annual fees. That seems quite over the top, even if they apply that money to your future purchase, they are making a ton of money on the interest alone.

  20. JKinNYC says:

    @RvLeshrac: Oh, and one other thing. Next time you have tickets to an event, any event, read the fine print. You have no “property” other than a piece of paper that signifies a contract between you and the seller. This contract says that if both of you follow the rules therein, you get to see that event.

  21. JKinNYC says:

    @TPK: From that article:
    “But in 2003, things changed for Jets waitlisters. The team decided to impose a fee of $50 a year for those on the lists. Lieb said he saw his place improve from 3,503 to 1,004 within four months of the announcement.”

    If that percentage holds throughout, ~70% of all people on the waiting list dropped off, meaning people who really did care, would stay on (of course scalpers would just pay it). I wonder if the Jets will want StubHub names too.

    The advertised idea was to reduce the waiting list for those who really cared. Obviously, the $500k is a nice cash grab, but it made the list take far less time for the people who cared.

    /For what it’s worth, I’m a Giants fan, and think the Jets ownership is pretty classless for other reasons. That said, there seems to be some logic to the move other than a cash grab.

  22. Buran says:

    You agreed to not resell the tickets. Why’re you complaining about getting in trouble for doing just that? No sympathy from me.

  23. JKinNYC says:

    @Buran: Wow. I need to move you lower on the list of users I constantly disagree with. Your post is the answer to this story in a nutshell.

  24. LTS! says:

    Exactly, you agree to the contract and then complain because you broke the contract? You, are a moron.

    Now, the Patriots do not forbid the resale of their tickets. However, they do forbid the resale of their tickets online AND they put a price limit on the sale of said ticket. The reason they operate their online system is so that season ticket holders who have something come up and need to sell their tickets for a week can do so without losing money.

    As a Sabres fan, it disgusts me that the season ticket holders routinely sell their tickets to the Maple Leaf fans who can’t get a ticket in their market. So when the Sabres play the Leafs it’s almost a 50/50 crowd and you see Leaf fans sitting in the front row. If the season ticket holders were discouraged more from selling this to recover their “season” cost then it wouldn’t be so damn insulting to the team you paid to support that you are putting the other team’s fans in the building.

  25. Adam Hyland says:

    @ RVLESRHAC,

    “Seriously, the problem here is simple: If you don’t want fans scalping your tickets, don’t make them ridiculously expensive in the first place, or don’t offer season tickets at all.”

    You need to UNDERSTAND the free market. If the pats were overpricing tickets, then it would be impossible to scalp them. If the pats hold ticket prices above the theoretical market price, than any attempt to resell them will result in a price below the original sale price.

    thanks for play, please try again.

    The problem here is very, very simple. There is a limited number of games each year, which the suppliers can’t control, so the number of tickets is constant. If TM/Patriots fix the value of the ticket price, there will be a shortage AT that price. in other words, at 40 dollars a seat, FAR more buyers exist than sellers. If the price were allowed to rise to meet demand, then eventually there would be no shortage. the number of people willing to pay 500 dollars to see the pats play a game would be progressively smaller and smaller, until the last ticket would be sold at a price only one buyer would be willing to pay.

    econ 101.

    Since the pats don’t want to LOOK like they are fleecing fans, they cap the price. What happens? WAY, WAY more people are willing to go at that price than can be accommodated.

    what happens if you buy a ticket at 40 dollars then realize that you can resell it for 500 dollars? You figure that you can better use that 460 dollars than you can use the seat at the game, and the buyer figures that seat is worth 500 dollars to him.

    Mutually beneficial transactions happen, whether you want them to or not. You can’t beat the market like this. You can make contracts, get mad at scalping services, but that won’t stop the fact that there are beneficial exchanges that could occur.

    Do scalpers make the problem worse? Sure. They aren’t necessary, they add a layer of informational fog, and they might attempt to buy tickets in bulk in order to leverage that larger number. But that isn’t the crux of it.

    REPEAT AFTER ME:

    If the Patriots sold the tickets by auction, for the market price, the price that scalpers resell tickers for would be very, very close to that.

  26. legotech says:

    I think that Mass is one of those states where ticket scalping is illegal, you are only supposed to be able to resell your tix for a few bucks above face so the Pats are not really being outrageous here asking that if you want to sell your tix you do so at face value.

    As someone who refuses to do business with scalpers, it means I don’t get to go to a lot of converets. I’m hoping that the ‘think of the children’ outcry over Hannah Montana will get the states to actually enforce the scalping laws on the books and shut down the resellers. They may have been more convenient 20 years ago when you had to go directly to the venue for the tix, but now you can buy the on the phone or online and don’t need the “help” of the scalpers.

  27. Adam Hyland says:

    Also, to the reactionary folks saying “the ticket is a ‘revocable license’ to be permitted to watch a game, please, please come join us fighting for the consumer.

    Is a CD a license to listen to music once? Is a book a license to read once? Can you loan a book to a friend? Can you make a copy of a CD?

    What motivation is there for rational people to change the notion of a ticket from:

    the right to be let in at the door for the bearer.

    to:

    A non transferrable, revocable license to sit down and behave at one sports event.

    There is no reason we would agree to that. If I buy movie tickets, I should be able to give them to a friend. If I buy plane tickets, I should be able to let someone else fly instead (I can’t, but that is neither here nor there).

    what purpose does limiting transferability serve? It obviously doesn’t stop resale.

    Do you want us to show ID to get into sports events and concerts? Provide a credit history, perhaps?

    How much are you willing to screw over the rest of us in order to make sure that someone isn’t making money from resale of an item?

  28. mconfoy says:

    @Hyland: You can give them to a friend. If the friend gets kicked out, you loose your season tickets.

    Screw the scalpers. Patriots are not the only team that does this. Most try and limit scalpers now. Since the Red Sox sell out every game, they let you return your tickets for face value. If you get busted scalping, too bad. If you don’t want to go to the games, don’t buy the tickets or do what most people do. Buy them as a group and divide up the games. Yank their season tickets. Have no mercy on these fools.

  29. HeyThereKiller says:

    @stanfrombrooklyn: you mean like the city of Arlington raising taxes 1.5% to fund the new Cowboys stadium that’s going to cost OVER A BILLION DOLLARS!!!

    [en.wikipedia.org]

  30. ulyssesmsu says:

    This year we went to a St. Louis Cardinals game with tickets we purchased on StubHub. We paid 2x the face value of the tickets, because they were someone’s season’s ticket seats. So, did we get screwed?

    Yes. Let them sell back their unused tickets to the parent organization for what they paid for them. Let them recoup their costs, but do not let them gouge or scalp someone else.

    The Patriots are right.

  31. morganlh85 says:

    @JKinNYC: Damn…so they make half a mil off people who WISH they were at the game?!?!

  32. ironchef says:

    Ticketmaster are a-holes. Sorry but I need to say that.

  33. roche says:

    I say only sell season tickets to people who live near the team. Every time I have purchased tickets from someone who had season tickets off of eBay, they either lived in Canada or near New York. Like some asshat in Canada is going to fly down here for every Cowboys game.

  34. dazette says:

    Both buying and selling tickets in the secondary market can be risky. I’d love to see season tickets go away completely. Teams could even raise individual ticket prices in most of the perpetually sold out sports markets and make still more money–but at least regular people willing to pay the price`might actually get a shot to be able to see one game a year!.

  35. Secularsage says:

    I’m a business major, so you armchair “free economy” folks, sit down. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Anyone who claims to believe in the free market should recognize:

    1) Inflating prices of limited supply based on speculation is a very, very bad thing. In fact, it was one of the factors that caused the stock market to crash in 1929. Study up on Game Theory and you’ll see that this sort of speculation causes all sorts of economic problems. It’s a bad thing that the market eventually has to adjust for. And remember that “the market” is not some invisible force with a mind of its own; it’s controlled both directly and indirectly by the responses of real people who participate in it.

    2) The Patriots own the stadium, the seats and the right to call the shots. If they want to get rid of season passes on a whim and just charge people to visit the stadium on a first-come, first-served basis for $1000 a head, they have the right to do it. They’re not government, and they’re not a public service organization. They’re a business, and they’re free to do whatever they want with their private property and services.

    3) “Free market economy” does not mean “let the rich prosper at the expense of everyone else.” People are buying season passes with the intention of selling some of their seats off at inflated prices to cover the costs of their purchase. This isn’t about supply and demand; it’s about speculators using their wealth to rip people off.

    4) The Patriots are saying that they don’t like this practice and they want it to stop. They also have the right to allow the practice to continue, so long as it doesn’t violate the law. They’re choosing the side of the middle-class consumer (who can’t afford the inflated prices of scalped tickets) and not of the wealthy ticket holders (who are inflating prices for their own gain).

    5. I’m sure their ulterior motive is that people who spend less on tickets spend more on concessions and souvenirs. But that’s good for everyone involved, since those purchases are voluntary, not compulsory. They also create extra jobs in the community.

    Personally, I think it’s great that the Patriots have a social conscience here. They’re still allowing season ticket holders to sell their tickets, but they’re requiring the ticket holders to sell the tickets at face value. This allows everyone to win; nobody is losing anything. There’s not even an opportunity cost to worry about. It’s a great system.

    Some of you folks seem to object to any business practice that doesn’t fit your narrow view of “consumer rights.” Grow up. Seriously. Consumers have tons of rights – chief among them the right to not spend their money on goods and services for any reason at all. If you don’t like a business’s practices, and they’re not doing anything illegal, don’t give them your money. It’s that simple.

    And on a side note, those 13,000 people who got outed by Stub Hub? All 13,000 of them signed a Terms of Use Agreement when they signed up. Guess what it says about releasing information to other parties?

    “Legal Disclaimer:
    Though we make every effort to preserve user privacy, we may disclose personal information when required by law or under the good-faith belief that such action is necessary under applicable law. We may disclose personal information in order to establish or exercise our legal rights or defend against legal claims. We also share information in order to investigate, prevent, or take action regarding illegal activities, suspected fraud, to protect our property or interests or that of our agents and employees, and to protect personal safety or the public.”

    SOURCE: [www.stubhub.com]

    /No, I don’t work for any of the aforementioned companies.

  36. fishiftstick says:

    Entertainment tickets–and that includes sports–are luxuries, not necessities. I don’t see the need for government regulation of how they are allocated. I’d rather have tickets sold to the highest bidder–so teams could stop taking public money.

    If these businesses sell their products at fixed prices, with conditions–and people choose to buy them–why complain when the conditions are enforced?

    I choose not to buy things–like itunes or windows vista–where the manufacturer has the right to tell you that you can only use the product on odd-numbered Wednesdays. But if other consumers are mindless sheep, they will eat what they are fed.

  37. I’d agree with the whole capitalist view that the tickets should be able to be resold at whatever they can get, except for three reasons:

    1. The whole agreement, contract thing as mentioned above.

    2. I’m pretty sure the stadium is subsidized in part by residents and local businesses through taxes, so ticket prices should be kept at as reasonable a level as possible so allow most people to be able to afford to see a game.

    3. The games stadium, game, and team is also in large part paid via sponsors and ads placed throughout the venue that are geared towards ticket goers from a wide demographic – and not just the upper class, or nutjob fans willing to mortgage their homes for a seat.
    Whats a shame, though, is that Ticketmaster continues to be a beneficiary of all this, no matter what.

  38. Buran says:

    @LTS!: While I see what you’re saying, I have to wonder why it’s so bad for there to be fans of both teams at the game. Surely, that makes it more fun for both the fans and the players; and why should your choice of team bar you from sitting whereever you like – assuming you got your ticket ‘legally’?

  39. JKinNYC says:

    @Hyland: You miss the point entirely and your analogy fails completely A ticket is for a ONE-TIME EVENT. Books and CDs are reusable mediums. IF books and cd’s self-destructed after one use, then the comparison works. (The tried that, Divx, and it bombed).

    The point here is that the contract is thereto protect fans. The Pats don’t make more money by enforcing it because they can’t sell any more tickets than they do. They can, however, make sure that it is real fans who have waited on a list for years get the tickets instead of scalpers. This very well could be PROTECTING THE CONSUMERS.

    Also, it does nothing to take the “consumer side” blindly, when sometimes the company is right. All it does is make your side look stupid for not seeing that sometimes either side can be wrong. Look at all the politicians for that. It’s not ALWAYS us vs. them.

  40. QuarterlyProphet says:

    Sounds like I’m going to be getting my season tickets a year or two earlier.

  41. JustAGuy2 says:

    If the Pats are worried about scalpers, they can solve that problem in an instant: just raise the ticket prices. The fact that there are scalpers indicates that the face value is set too low. Raise the ticket prices until the market clears. That (a) gets rid of the scalpers, and (b) raises more revenue for the Pats. Easy peasey.

  42. bohemian says:

    First Ticketmaster basically scalps tickets to consumers. I heard that something like close to 40% on some tickets are delivery fees for the tickets.

    When you have people buying tickets as investments you have a problem. It restricts access to the event unless you pay some third party holding tickets hostage. Since most arenas and most professional sports teams have a large amount of taxpayer money invested in them having someone from out of state or out of the country buying up all the tickets and jacking the price is a problem. People in a local area get together to build an event center or have a local team and then they can’t use it unless they pay off someone living in another state that grabbed all the tickets.

  43. rbb says:

    Pro sports: The teams are owned by billionaires. The teams composed of millionaires who play a game for children. The venue where the game is played is financed by the taxpayers, of which the majority cannot afford tickets to the game.

  44. B says:

    If the tickets were sold at or below face value, I side with the ticket holders. If they were sold above face value, I side with the team.
    Oh, and just for the record, the Patriots don’t play in a stadium that was financed by taxpayers.

  45. RandomHookup says:

    Most people are very much in favor of the free market on things, but the scalpers have proven themselves to be so underhanded on the whole process that it’s hard to support them at all. I work next to Fenway Park and this next week the scalpers will be hanging off light posts. I’ll get asked if I have tickets a dozen times a day (“Well, let me check my other pocket to make sure I don’t have any…”)

    How would you like to run a business where other people get to take advantage of market forces but you can’t? You spend lots of money to put a winning team on the field, and opportunists make 2-20 x the revenue you get because you win and there’s more demand than supply.

  46. JKinNYC says:

    @JustAGuy2: Which prices lots of fans out of the seats altogether. The vast majority of revenue for the NFL is not ticket sales, it is TV, merchandise, and advertising. The teams price tickets where they are for a reason.

  47. mac-phisto says:

    hey, thems the risks you take…

    as a student at penn state, we used to sell our tickets all the time. according to the “contract”, the most we could get is 10% over face value. they used to crack down on students to prove a point…especially around homecoming.

    that’s when you start to see the funny ads on the ad boards: quality pre-owned pencil ONLY $300!!!1!! (includes free ticket to penn state/ohio state game). i don’t think that isolates you from anything, but it was still funny as hell to read. =P

    my parents always had 4 season tickets & we never sold them…if we couldn’t make a game, my dad always found someone who was willing to make the trip. i don’t think season ticket holders should be using the tickets as a revenue source.

  48. timmus says:

    This thread reminds me why I and my family have no interest in professional sports. I had tickets to an MLB game back in 2000… the seats were so far back that I needed opera glasses and the game was forgettable. I’m glad it was on my brother-in-law’s company’s dime.

  49. str1cken says:

    I think that if Ticketmaster believes that the government should, in essence, enforce pricing regulation on the ticketholders, then the government should enforce pricing regulation on Ticketmaster.

    I’m sure they’d cry free market capitalism if that happened.

  50. The words “free market” and “the NFL” shouldn’t even be uttered in same breath. Unless you consider a cartel of billionaires with guaranteed local monopolies and artificial salary caps the epitome of the “free market.”

  51. GiselleBeardchen says:

    Anyone who thinks that this has anything to do with the Patriots having a social conscience needs to grow up and maybe attend “reality school”!

  52. Patsfan says:

    Just to clear this up Gillette Stadium is privately financed by the Kraft family. The only help received was with road improvements which have are being repaid to the state with the parking fees charged at the site.

  53. JKinNYC says:

    @GiselleBeardchen: Ironically from a Colts fan. Social conscience no, but fan conscience, I’d say yes.

  54. savvy9999 says:

    The only realistic compromise that I can see in all of this is for the Pats to put a cap on the price of re-sold tickets, around 100%. That way resellers can make a tidy profit, yet average fans will somehow be able to see a game once in their lifetime.

    The secondary market will always exist, it’s just a matter of reeling in those that go too far. Anyone found hawking over that limit, revoke the seating license and lifetime banishment from the stadium.

    I also agree with the aforementioned thought about simply raising ticket prices to match what the market will bear in order to remove the incentive for scalping (sell every season ticket by auction to the highest bidder?), but that also defeats the purpose of making the game affordable for an average family. there has to be a middle ground somewhere, I’m just not smart enough to imagine it.

  55. babaki says:

    i just think its BS that people are asking 200-300 dollars for a ticket that cost them 75. its nonsense.

  56. Canadian Impostor says:

    @Firstborn Dragon: So these people can go and buy their own tickets. They don’t HAVE to buy resale.

    I’m assuming you’re from Toronto based on your mention from the Argos.

    Like the Maple Leafs since WW2, the Patriots sell out every game within seconds of tickets going on sale. Patriots and Red Sox tickets are pretty much impossible to get.

  57. Canadian Impostor says:

    @babaki: It’s not nonsense, it’s a free market economy. The only problem here is that the teams aren’t selling their tickets for the full market value. Since the tickets are artificially cheap for season ticket holders, there’s going to be situations in which season ticket holders leverage the arbitrage for profit.

    If the tickets were actually too expensive, as people here claim, then noone would buy them. They sell for a mutually agreed upon price in a relatively open market.

  58. babaki says:

    tickets for pretty much any football game in US are impossible to get. Jets, Giants in NJ you cannot buy at the box office. they are gone. the only way to buy them is from someone. and like i said, you pay $300 for ticket that cost $75.

  59. tekkierich says:

    This is totally ridiculous.

    I am speaking as a fan of the Washington Redskins who is holding tickets for next weeks game Redskins at Patriots game in his hands right now. I bought these tickets on e-bay and paid THE GOING MARKET RATE. It is called free market economics people. It is not our fault if event organizers create arbitrage opportunities by selling their tickets cheaper than what the market will bear.

    The face value on these tickets was $125. I paid three times that. Why? Because I wanted to see the Redskins in freaking Boston and I was willing to pay market price to do that.
    My friend and I go out of town to see a Redskins game every year. This is how we chose to spend our money, deal with it.

  60. bravo369 says:

    The only people I feel bad for are the ones that aren’t active resellers and only sold it because they couldn’t go that day. I believe the fans should have first crack at ALL tickets before anyone just trying to make a profit. I find it despicable that some people have season tickets for years and years and have never gone to a game. I’m sure there’s people with season tickets who don’t even live in the same state anymore, can’t go to the games, but keep the tickets so they can sell online each week. Those are the people the Pats don’t want to have tickets. I think it’s sad that whenever I want a ticket to a game, theatre, or concert, I have to go to ebay or stubhub first rather than the venue actually selling the tickets.

  61. babaki says:

    @tekkierich: i hope you spout the same rhetoric when gas prices are high. its the same concept. just because you choose to pay the higher price doesn’t make it right. @bravo369: i 100% agree.

  62. JustAGuy2 says:

    @bravo369:

    So, you’d be happier paying $300/ticket to the Pats than to StubHub?

  63. tekkierich says:

    @babaki: Yes I “spout the same rhetoric” as Milton Freedman and the Austrian school of economics.

    Price is the best way to ration the limited supply of goods in a free society.

    I would love to pay more for gas. It would reduce demand and spir innovation in alternate energy sources which over time will lower to cost of energy to the average consumer. How much does our current oil based economy currently cost us anyway? What chaos has oil wealth brought to the world?

  64. Chicago7 says:

    Pro Football is the best game ever to watch ON TV!

  65. mbrutsch says:

    Footballtards. Always good for a laugh.

  66. schiff says:

    I applaud this action. I have all but stopped going to professional sporting events because I cant afford to pay the scalpers prices.
    Case in point, I was unable to purchase a $39 seat to the buffalo sabres game in the football stadium. Tickets were sold out 2 minutes after they went on sale. Within 15 minutes those tickets were listed on stub hub for $375-$1500. original pricing was $39-$90 for the seats listed.
    How is that even remotely fair to te common person?

  67. Adam Hyland says:

    @JKinNYC:

    No.

    CD’s and books OUGHT to be treated like a purchased good, but try talking about the doctrine of first sale when buying them online.

    My analogy to books and music is fine, and it holds.

    We used to treat books and music as a good that we had the right to resell or trade after purchase, but companies (in the face of diminishing revenue streams) are more inclined to treat those purchases as licenses to listen to music (see an ebook vs. a regular book or an itunes album versus a cd at the store).

    Why are we so willing to forgo first sale rights in the case of tickets to events?

  68. Adam Hyland says:

    @Secularsage:

    You’re a business major, so I’ll forgive you your sins.

    You aren’t right in dismissing the “free market” folks because you haven’t addressed our major claim.

    Yes, the patriots have the right to hold ticket prices at whatever level they deem appropriate. Yes, they have a right to sell them under any terms and conditions that they can dream up.

    The pats may do this for any reason, business, social or otherwise.

    I don’t care.

    My point is that as long as they are holding tickets below the equilibrium price, THEY GENERATE THE SHORTAGE at that price.

    Period.

    Scalpers don’t generate it when they buy the tickets in bulk. Season ticket holders don’t generate it when they but 13 games at a time. Businesses don’t generate it when they buy blocks of seats for executives and customers.

    The Patriots generate it.

    And speculation leads to market crashes empiricially? Are you a business major of an accredited school? How do you think the market (and yes of course it is a meeting of individuals) behaves without speculation when it isn’t in depression?

    Speculation and resale are the heart of all of the financial markets in the world, and secondary ticket markets are no exception.

    “3) “Free market economy” does not mean “let the rich prosper at the expense of everyone else.” People are buying season passes with the intention of selling some of their seats off at inflated prices to cover the costs of their purchase. This isn’t about supply and demand; it’s about speculators using their wealth to rip people off.”

    this doesn’t even make any sense. For one, that is only one example of possible resale, and for another, you have just replaced one cliche term with a string of insults, not made an argument. If the price is held artificially low, and someone resells their ticket to another person, then that IS supply and demand.

    Let’s try talking about it like this.

    The introduction of scalpers may cause some negative externalities and may introduce large information costs into these transactions–just like ANY black or grey market intermediary. Arguably, tickets being resold by scalpers do not result in an efficient market.

    I would argue that they are MORE efficient than a market with a large shortage. In the case of a market without resale, it is only a good outcome if you are first in line. If you are early enough in line to buy a ticket, you may have gotten a ticket for less than you would have been willing to part with. But for those who are later in line, then no amount of money will get them a ticket, large or small.

  69. babaki says:

    @tekkierich: i used gas as an example. not to get into political debate over oil. we all cant be rich like you must be and fork over 5x the original price for the sake of economics. ration the limited supply of goods? so what your saying is, tickets should go to the rich, and people who cant afford to be ripped off by thieves should just shut up and take it. @schiff: according to tekkierich, you should just shut up and pay the inflated prices because its good economics. forget whats fair to the consumer..which is what i thought this site was about.

  70. whydidnt says:

    What’s going to be interesting is seeing what the Patriots do with this list. Hopefully, they will simply look for people who are selling many tickets each and every week and “revoke” that license, while ignoring the people who have sold their tickets just once during the season.

    I personally question how enforceable the “contract” on the back of the ticket is. Most contracts have to be explicitly agreed to by both parties to be enforceable. If I buy a ticket at face value without being given the opportunity to read the terms of the said contract, how have a I agreed to those terms? Once I get the ticket and read the terms, can I return it for a full refund if I don’t agree to those terms — probably not since refunds are also strictly prohibited.

  71. Adam Hyland says:

    @babaki:

    what in the world are you talking about?

    What is “the original price” of something?

    Who is being ripped off by theives here?

    stop using appeals to emotion and please make some sense.

    do you understand that the economics he is talking about is the same thing that brings your groceries to market? That MESSING with those economics is why milk , soybeans and other crops that aren’t corn are so expensive?

    This isn’t the case of “things going to the rich” this is a case of prices being allowed to float. Sometimes they float up, sometimes down. The outcome isn’t always great, but usually the solution isn’t to fix prices.

  72. Adam Hyland says:

    @whydidnt:

    hopefully we will see some customers questioning how enforcable that contract is. For sales at the box office with no provision for refund, I could see a case being made, similar to the cases made against shrinkwrap contracts. if you buy it online, then you probably do have to click through a TOU/Contract.

  73. Buran says:

    @ulyssesmsu: Sadly, you paid it, so they’ll keep right on doing it …

  74. Buran says:

    @whydidnt: Do they make them available on the web site first?

  75. bravo369 says:

    @JustAGuy2: I don’t mind paying $300 to either stubhub or to the patriots…provided that the ticket being purchased is worth $300. I don’t want to pay $300 for a ticket that was purchased for $65. That’s not right.

  76. zonk68 says:

    The free market is working.

    The reality is that outfits like StubHub, Ebay, or your local ticket broker are capitalizing on the fact that the Patriots and other teams/concert promoters, etc. have priced their tickets too low – their games are consistently sold out.

    Nobody is being ripped off here, there’s only the unpleasant notion that someone else might be willing to pay considerably more than you for football tickets. And yes, I agree that a lot of these events are ultimately being priced out reach of regular folks. Try taking your kids to sporting event these days and watch the money fly out of your wallet.

    Some of the other NFL teams have wisened up and elected to participate in these StubHub transactions in lieu of raising ticket prices. That’s smart!

  77. zonk68 says:

    @bravo369: If you don’t want to pay $300 for a ticket that was purchase for $65, then don’t buy it.

    The decision is yours.

  78. tekkierich says:

    @babaki:
    I hope you enjoy your socialist utopia. I am hardly rich by many definitions. I simply chose to spend my entertainment money for some things that you may not chose to spend it for. If a ticket to a football game is only worth $100 to you, then please only pay that much for the ticket. I however find value in buying good seats at a stadium 400 miles away from myself and I will pay a premium for that.
    I do not find things such as 60″ plasma TV’s worth their price. I drive a basic 5 year old pickup truck. My home is well under 2000 square feet. Could I pay more and receive more house and car? Sure I could, but I don’t, and I do not demand that marketplaces be regulated so that I may buy more of any product.
    Why do you want to insert yourself, or the power of government into my freely consented upon transaction between two parties? I wanted tickets and had cash, and the guy I bought them from had tickets and wanted cash.

    People are misguided to want to regulate ticket resale markets. Just as they are misguided to regulate gasoline markets in a disaster.

    If I own 50,000 gallons of 87 octane in the Northeast that I can sell at $2.50 a gallon locally, but also sell at $4.50 a gallon in a hurricane ravaged area, don’t you think I will trip over myself to get it to that market? Don’t you think that higher prices being a measure of strong demand will pull more supply into a market? In a disaster is that not what we want? People that do not understand these concepts baffle me.

  79. Adam Hyland says:

    @bravo369:

    You probably buy a lot of things for more than they are “worth”. You give your money to a bank and they hand on to only a fraction of it, then charge other people for just BORROWING that money!

    You probably bought a CD or DVD at some point that cost 50c to make in some foreign country.

    A ticket is “worth” 300 dollars if it fetches 300 dollars on the market.

    The reason that spread of 65 to 300 seems unfair to you is the difference between what the end user sees and what the Patriots charge. do you really think that the New England Patriots are the determinants of value for that ticket? what if they sucked? If they charged 65 dollars a ticket, no one would buy it. then would the tickets be worth 65 dollars?

    Right now, if we assume that the pats dictate the value of the ticket, then they must have guessed that exactly 40000 (or however many the stadium can seat) people–no more, no less–want to pay 65 dollars to see a football game. The odds of that guess being correct are pretty low, and frankly, the existence of scalpers proves that the guess is wrong.

    The market is dettermining the worth of that ticket as we speak, the patriots are just getting in the way.

  80. mconfoy says:

    @rbb: Bob Kraft built the stadium completely out of his own pocket.

  81. mconfoy says:

    @tekkierich: And every Redskins fan knows, scalping of their season tickets is a violation of Redskins’ policy too. Its that way for every team.

  82. mconfoy says:

    @Hyland: Clearly you have never bought season tickets.

  83. bravo369 says:

    Wow…everyone seemed to jump on me. From my original comments, i feel for the people who just happened to not be able to go that day. I would love to by tickets to an event…if I could actually get through. These resellers flood the lines and the event sells out in 6 minutes. 3 minutes later, half of the offered tickets seem to be on stubhub and ebay. This is what the Pats are trying to prevent. The way i look at it, the pats are looking out for the REAL fans. I’m sure there’s people out there who bought pats-colts tickets for $2000 each just to say they went.

    And YES, the pats could sell these tickets at $300+ each and they’d probably still sell out but it’s at a price to let average fans and average families come out to the game. The resellers are preventing many people from going to the game. If you are a millionaire, then paying $65 for a ticket is very cheap for you but the way it’s being handled, a millionaire just goes on stubhub, offers $6000 for 1st row on 50 yard line and goes to the game. It took no effort whatsoever. I say everyone needs to wait in the same line and in the same queue over the phone. As someone else said, it would be best if they would just sell the ticket at the window the day of and you entered the game.

  84. mconfoy says:

    @zonk68: The rule is use them yourself, give them away or sell through the team. Free market is irrelevant. If you don’t want to use them, then why did you buy them? Because the team requires you to. That is causing a market failure. However, no one has problems finding someone to go in with them and split the tickets. More people see the a game, none get scalped. Why is that so difficult?

  85. mconfoy says:

    @tekkierich: Except you are not told you must buy 8 TVs and 3 small ones (preseason tickets) and that only 80K people in the area get to buy those TVs. And there is no government, its the Pat’ policy. If you don’t like the policy, don’t buy the damn tickets. Its a free market and your choice.

  86. mconfoy says:

    @Hyland: You are not entirely correct. As I said, the Pat’s policy of requiring you to buy 8 tix plus 3 pre-season tix is responsible for the shortage along with the demand, stadium size, team quality. If all tickets were sold only as individual games, this would not be such an issue. But that is the team’s policy. Just as its their policy that you can’t scalp the damn tickets. Don’t like it? Don’t buy them.

  87. tekkierich says:

    @mconfoy: I was unaware of any policy such as this when I bought my tickets. I also bought them from an individual in MA with about a 100 feedback on e-bay, so I doubt he was a institutional scalper, just a fan selling an item he can not use.

    I will be PISSED if I hold the legit ticket for a game bought from the original purchaser and find out that my ticket is void.
    How am I, as an out of town fan supposed to coax a ticket out of a home team’s fans hands? Cold hard cash works well. Who have I hurt?

  88. StevieD says:

    I guess I have been fortunate in that I have attended several pro sports games without spending a single penny from my tightwad pockets…… the tickets were given to me. A friend of the family purchases season passes for several dozen seats for the local pro teams. He gives the tickets out as rewards to his customers and employees, and of course his kids and grandkids have access to the tickets and can share with their friends. Nice situation. I live next door to one of his kids and several years ago I got 5 tickets (for the W and kiddies) to a season finale.

    I would hate to see the teams limit sales to customers. Some people really are buying bulk packages for their family or for legitimate business purposes.

    At the same time I think a limit on bulk sales of season passes would really cramp the style of the professional scalpers and allow access to the everyman.

  89. zonk68 says:

    @mconfoy: Right, and the Redskins have also partnered up with StubHub (an official reseller for Redskins tickets) and I’ll hazard a guess and say that Dan Snyder gets a taste of the relevant transactions that take place.

    Resale of season tickets might be “officially” taboo, but the Redskins certainly encourage use of StubHub: take a look at the banner ad link off of http://www.redskins.com

  90. zonk68 says:

    @mconfoy: Maybe I bought tickets for personal use, maybe I bought them to give to family/friends/customers, or maybe I bought them so I can profit off of them or better yet, lose money off of them (like all of the preseason games that NFL teams force season ticket holders to buy).

    It’s my business as to what I do with the tickets. What’s so hard to understand about that? If someone wants to offer me above face for a pair of tickets, what’s the problem? Why isn’t it a crime when someone offers me below face?

  91. Adam Hyland says:

    @mconfoy:

    the pat’s policy here is irrelevant. If there are 13000 people alone looking for ticket resales on ONE resale site, then there are bound to be plenty more who aren’t engaged in resale at that site.

    If the tickets were sold individually at a rate not allowed to change with demand, then we would still ahve the same problem.

    I don’t like your “solution” for first sale doctrine problems, even though I practice it. The “if you don’t like X, don’t participate” only goes so far and ignores the notion of path dependence. The more and more common these mini contracts become in items we are used to treating as property, the more accustomed we will be to this hemming in of rights.

    Remember the fight about cookies on the internet? Remember the fight about wiretapping phone calls without a warrant? Remember when you could bring a bag into a movie theater? Those days aren’t coming back, and no manner of avoiding patronage of one establishment will change that.

    We are at the turning point of how to define rights related to the first sale doctrine, and we’re messing it up.

  92. Adam Hyland says:

    @bravo369:

    We are jumping on you because you just don’t get it.

    Let’s pretend there aren’t professional resellers in the world. YAAAH!

    Let’s also pretend that the Pats have some goal, selling tickets at a price the “average fan” can afford. Let’s say this price is 50 bucks.

    Let’s ALSO say that the Pats are super popular and will more than sell out ever game this year at that price of 50 dollars.

    Normally, those folks would have some variable willingness to part with that cash for tickets. Some people would only be willing to pay 5 dollars, or 15 dollars for a ticket. those people aren’t getting in. Some other people are willing to spend 1000 dollars for a ticket. They don’t need to, but they would be willing to.

    As a matter of fact, there are more people willing to buy tickets at those prices than there are tickets at those prices.

    So, the first people in line get those tickets. That’s an unfortunate consequence of not having enough tickets, but it’s fair enough. You get in line early, you get your tickets.

    So those folks that bought the tickets, good Americans that they are, go home and discover thet their neighbor, Richie Rich, didn’t get up in time for that line. He wants to see the pats with his monocle, but can’t. He tells thoe loyal fans his predicament, and says, hey, how much do you value those tickets for? The fans go, well, we bought them for 65 dollars, but because we are such good fans, we would have paid 350 dollars.

    Richie Rich says, well, maybe we are both in luck. I’ve got a mutually beneficial transaction in mind. I would like to go to the game, and you would like, say 250 dollars for those tickets, right?

    Sure, says the family, happy to get money equivalent to what they thought the tickets were worth (they could have just as easily sold them for what Richie thought they were worth, which was evidently higher, but it works either way). they leave and go buy a new TV, or something.

    And the first scalpers were born!

    An opportunity for resale was created by the Patriots, because they didn’t offer tickets for sale at the market price. So those consumers who bought them didn’t have to part with the amount of money that the tickets were wroth to them. On TOP of this, since at that price there were more fans than at the price of 1000 dollars per ticket, plenty of people who would have gone couldn’t, because they weren’t available to pick those tickets up at the office before they sold out.

    The Patriots created the shortage by selling the tickets at below the market price. SOMEONE will step in to resell them, always, even if you get rid of all the professionals and try again. You can’t get rid of the reselling until you get rid of the opportunity for resale.

    It’s just how it works, sorry.

  93. Adam Hyland says:

    @mconfoy:

    season tickets fall under long term contracts, made to obfuscate market functions and to ensure a hedge against volotilty.

    I am well aware of plenty of schemes that are similar to season tickets, rebate programs, frequent flyer miles, cell phone contracts, etc.

    That doesn’t mean that any of the underlying points are invalid. Season tickets may provide ANOTHER opportunity where tickets are sold at a price totally unhinged from the market, or where tickets that are less desirable are bundled with more desirable ones in order to ensure that season ticket holders don’t just pay for the option to go to the post season.

    All of those cases may just be another example of where motivation exists to resell tickets.

    I’ve already talked about your “don’t like it don’t buy it” admonition, but I want to say this.

    whether I buy, or anyone else in thsi forum buys a resold ticket isn’t going to change the fact that the incentive for resale exists. As long as that incentive exists, people will resell tickets. The only way to change that is to eliminate the incentive for resale. IMO, the easiest way to do that, is to float the price of tickets, but there are other, more complicated ways.

  94. Adam Hyland says:

    @bravo369:

    As for your solution, it only works if your time has no value to you.

    Get tickets only on game day? What happens if you like 200 miles from the stadium? how much do you spend in gas to get there? What if you have a job that prevents you from being in line when the tickets are sold? do those people never get to go to sports games?

    If your time has value, say a high value, it isn’t worth it to wait in line for tickets. If I had millions of dollars to blow, I might just decide to pay someone 6000 dollars to get me front row seats, as far as I’m concerned, that money is plenty of “effort” exerted to get those tickets.

    And, I don’t think that the patriots touching concern for the fans has them clamping the ticket prices at 65 dollars. I suspect that it is a calculated choice between high revenues and bar PR that comes from high ticket prices. that’s why they go after scalpers, not because they care about fans, but because they don’t like the image of tickets going for thousands of dollars.

  95. doctor_cos wants you to remain calm says:

    Why are they picking on their ‘loyal’ customers (the STH) and not the bastards at the ‘ticket broker’ companies who scalp more tickets in one game…
    These companies with their own private numbers/websites for ticketbastard who buy up all the good seats as soon as they go on sale?

  96. bravo369 says:

    @Hyland: I know how a free market system works. And your scenario describes exactly who I feel for in this situation. The people are don’t necessarily resell tickets but just did for 1 game. It’s the habitual resellers the pats are trying to stop. Other people are just going to get into the mix. I know of the free market system and i know what it aims to achieve…but that doesn’t make it right. don’t buy a ticket if you aren’t going to the game. give other people a chance to get them.

  97. Adam Hyland says:

    @bravo369:

    Your absolutely correct in saying that the free market system doesn’t make things right. It also won’t always result in outcomes that we like. For instance, if there were only 13 football games and tickets were sold at auction to the highest bidder, you and I would probably never be able to go to a football game.

    All we are saying is that:

    The reason there is a shortage ISN’T because of resellers. I know it seems this way, but it isn’t. Resellers trade on that shortage, but they can’t create it by themselves.

    Habitual resellers will crop up given those conditions I showed you in the scenario, creating a distinction between one time resellers and bulk resellers doesn’t do anything-the pats certainly don’t make that distinction when they print the contract on the ticket.

  98. Javert says:

    @Buran: I have clashed with you on other topics before but like so many articles, this is a big who cares? The season ticket buyers agree to a contract prior to buying the tickets. If they don’t like it, I am sure there are quite a few people who would be more than willing to abide the contract and buy the tickets.

    This is really a weak thread.

  99. babaki says:

    @Hyland: you keep saying that me and bravo dont get it, but we seem to think YOU are the one who doesnt get it. no one is talking about your neighbor who sells you a ticket cuz he cant go. we are talking about the people who buy as many tickets as they can and then go right to ebay, with no intention of going to a game, and sell them for 4x what they paid. this is what the pats are trying to stop.. also it doesnt matter if the team sucks or not. the jets suck and thier games have been sold out for years. @tekkierich: your scenario for selling gasoline, is illegal.

  100. Adam Hyland says:

    I’m saying that those two people are functionally the same. and if they aren’t functionally the same, one (the professional reseller) is an outgrowth of another.

    You are saying that you would like to have your cake and eat it too. You want good folks who just buy a ticket and forget that they have to go to a dance recital on the same day to be able to resell that ticket, but you would rather the people who make a business of ticket resale be unable to do so.

    I don’t know how much more plain I can make it. You can’t invent a policy that does that without eliminating the financial incentive for resale. You generate that financial incentive for resale through those price controls that TM/Patriots implement.

    Why don’t we have the same problem with people buying and reselling honda civics? Because Honda isn’t trying to save face by holding Civic prices at 4000 dollars. if they were, and civics were in such high demand as to be valued at much more, people would buy them up in order to resell them later, with no intention of driving them.

    when you respond to resale with abitrary restrictions on use (like needing an ID to match a ticket or including a contract to prevent resale), you impact fans as much as you impact resellers.

    I don’t care where you line up on this debate as far as one time resale versus scalping. I wouldn’t assume anyone here would be FOR large scale resale via computer and hoarding until prices skyrocket. That’s like being for baby seal poaching while having a debate about resource management.

    What we have been trying to say over and over again is that the ticket price policy of the patriots creates this problem, and until THAT policy changes, the problem will persist.

    Your responses have been:

    -Price controls good.

    -Resellers are theives/criminals/etc.

    -The “worth” of a ticket is its face value

    -Only scalpers and season ticket policies create this shortage, without them, we would all be able to go to games at 50 dollars a pop.

    This is where our insistence that you don’t understand things is coming from.

  101. erik65 says:

    I agree with the team, and I found the pro-scalper/free market argument of Hylander to be hollow, because the laws of economics govern commodities, not contracts that state that they are transferrable under only certain conditions. The movable object that is the ticket is not the agreement that legally permits you in the door. It is simply a written statement that serves as verification of that contract. Unless you sell your ticket under the terms of the contract you have with the Patriots, then legally the contract was violated, and the Patriots are no longer bound to live up to their end of the agreement to let the (scalped) ticket holder in. Once the contract between the original purchaser violated the terms of the agreement which outlined his right to attend the game, the agreement was broken, and the contract not enforceable. This is more about contract law than economics. To some degree, this is also about criminal law as well, since the state law that specifically prohibits scalping by limiting the increase in price upon any “reselling tickets,” is being violated. This law is a consumer-protection oriented law. There is such a thing as the rights of the local fans, even if it is not written into the constitution. You would think Patriots fans would be amongst the most likely to be sure that they 1) knew who was using their STH seats 2) not try to profit off of the transfer of an agreement to attend an event on the Kraft property, and 3) treat the tickets with more respect, in the belief that it’s more supposed to be about the GAME itself.

  102. Adam Hyland says:

    @erik65:

    It’s Hyland, thanks.

    Also, It’s not a Pro-scalper/free market argument. It’s an explanation of what is going on using economics. It turns into an argument because it forces conclusions to be drawn that at at odds with most of the knee jerk responses to ticket resale.

    You called my comment hollow, and then processed to ignore them. Please go back and read them.

    The free market governs any interaction where someone is buying and selling something. ust because the patriots put a contract on their ticket and order to buyer to not resell it doesn’t mean that people no longer make economic decisions. They made a decision to buy the ticket (enter into the contract, if you prefer) in the first place.

    I also understand and acknowledge that this is about contract law, contract theory as well as economics. What you don’t understand is that those contracts OBVIOUSLY aren’t preventing ticket resale. I don’t care how you couch the agreement, resale will occur if there is an opportunity and incentive for arbitrage generated by the ticket price. Period.

    I’m not arguing who is right or wrong here. I’ve already said, I don’t really care who is right or wrong. Personally, I feel that if we start feeling that tickets are “the priveledge to attend an event of the Kraft property” alone, that is pretty sad. But how I feel about that isn’t important.

    Go and read ANY of my posts trying to explain this. I had hoped I had made myself pretty clear, maybe I failed to.

  103. erik65 says:

    The contracts OBVIOUSLY limit the resale conditions.

    And thanks for acknowledging that they are just a contract, not a commodity, which makes all economic arguments irrelevant.