Michael Righi got in trouble this Saturday for refusing to voluntarily show his receipt when exiting a Ohio Circuit City. According to his account, the manager and security guard followed him into the parking lot and prevented the car door from being shut or the car from moving. When Michael called 911, the cop ended up arresting him for not providing his driver’s license.
Under Ohio’s “stop and identify” law, citizens are only required to give name, address, and date of birth.
Some people in positions of authority seem to be so unused to people actually exercising their rights that they assume the person is a threat and should be stopped and contained until they can figure out what’s going on.
Michael writes, “I’ve always taken the stance that retail stores shouldn’t treat their loyal customers as criminals and that customers shouldn’t so willingly give up their rights along with their money.”
[michaelrighi via BoingBoing] (Thanks to Tampabackup!)
RELATED: TigerDirect Apologizes For Unlawfully Detaining Customer For Refusing To Show Receipt
(Photo: FastFords)
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@Steel_Pelican: You should be concerned about both, but don’t forget that it’s not your job to help the store stop thieves.
@FinanceGuru:
Like I said, it is a stretch. But the logic is not completely flawed. Before 9/11 we could carry our own plastic knife, fork and spoon on a plane with little or no notice. Try that today. Even if TSA lets you get through the gate, your fellow passengers are going to be nutso and the flight crew is going to be summoning Uncle Leo just because you have a clean fork fetish.
A customer that does not want to show his receipt is in the same situation. It is an automatic “what is wrong with this scene”. Store staff must view the situation (and customer) as suspect. Have some thefts occurred when shoppers just strolled out of the store with the goods? Yes. Sometimes there might have been a receipt. The fact that it is the most common or least common method of theft is not relevant, it is a method of theft. While the exit screening process may not catch many thefts, what would happen if NO screening process was in place? Maybe that is why it is called “theft deterrent”?
Yes the common method of theft may be employee misconduct, however most employees return to the scene of the crime, thus making apprehension very easy.
@star_: That may be good for you, but when I worked at a big box club store I we would find dozens of overcharges or items not charged a week. In 4 years we never found one thief by doing the check. When people would ask why we did the check, I would just say that the cashiers were idiots….but I also never followed anyone out for not showing the thing. That is too far.
@Falconfire: A lot of shrinkage is internal, that’s why there is some psych testing and a lot of inventory control including audits, scheduled and otherwise, and daily and weekly counts.
My point is still, businesses pass on all costs to the customers including shrinkage.
Christ, there’s nothing I hate more than the “nothing to hide” argument. Get a clue people!
See my rebuttal to this often used and always wrong argument here:
[www.jeremyduffy.com]
@StevieD: Your logic is completely flawed, or at least your airport comparison is, anyway.
When you buy an airplane ticket, you also agree to FAA regulations (NB: *not* store/airline/airport policies). And at the security gate is a posted sign that explicitly outlines what you can and can’t bring in. But more crucially, the TSA gives you the option of turning back and going home if you don’t feel like complying with FAA regulations.
The only way your comparison would stand up is if you had customers agree to receipt checking before entering the store or otherwise turning them away.
The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it. – Albert Einstein
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. – Edmund Burke
I’m not an expert or anything, but it’s always been my understanding that your driver’s license is not “yours,” but is actually the property of the state in which it is issued and must be surrendered at the request of a police officer or other authorized state official.
If I’m wrong about this, please let me know.
The real issue, I feel, is being overlooked by alot of the folks, especially those saying, “just let them see the receipt.” The issue is not seeing the receipt the issue is the unlawful detainment of the customer for not showing the receipt. Showing the receipt is voluntary not law. While no one likes feeling like a theif, any resulting detainment, like above, is against the law.
If CC does not like people refusing to show their receipt then they should start a membership store and when someone refuses, cancel their membership.
Or better yet, use baggers at the end of the check out lines.
Finally, stores can be designed to deter large item thefts.
1. Entrance door is separate from exit. Make sure it opens only for entrance.
2. Large exit door requires you to go through cashier area.
3. Smaller exit door for customerd not buying items can be located near entrance. OPens only for exit. Have sensors.
4. Very large items require employee assistance and/or rear pickup.
GO MICHAEL. He’s absolutely right and the results of his actions show conclusively that, if people stop using their rights, THEY DISAPPEAR. I’m sure this thread is chock-full of people urging everyone to just keep their heads down and Obey, but if you do that, pretty soon you won’t have the choice anymore. And it’s NOT okay to let America turn into the kind of society where you can be stopped and searched with no reasonable cause, especially by freaking STORES. Everyone who stands up to protect the Fourth Amendment in this issue deserves a medal, and everyone who urges unquestioning compliance deserves to have a cage strapped to their face and rats put inside it.
@ElPresidente408: It’d be nice, and much easier legally, if these “detainers” had reasonable grounds, but I know for a fact they usually don’t. Why? Because I’ve never stolen a damn thing in my life, but I get asked ALL THE TIME. Obviously they’re just randomly harassing people. And I realize that’s not illegal (though I really think it should be), but if that’s how they’re doing to handle it, at the very least they should be prevented from doing anything more than asking. White House Opinion aside, refusal to submit to an unreasonable search is NOT reasonable cause TO search!
@mjgrady: So YOU don’t think it’s a big deal, good for you. What about the people who do? Should everyone have to submit to something because YOU don’t mind it and can’t be empathetic to people who have their own reasons for disliking the practice? The law doesn’t work that way, thank god.
@StevieD:
“but one day some security guard somewhere is going to ask to view a sales ticket of somebody with a very young child in tow. The person will refuse and the guard will let the person pass. The child will have left with some very evil person. And everybody will exclaim how terrible the security guard was for failing to deter the person and prevent the hideous crime.”
Yup, because, of all the hundreds of children I’ve stolen over the years to raise as pit fighters (don’t wanna get in trouble for dog fighting, ya know), every time I’ve waited patiently in line to do my shopping with the kid in tow. I also use coupons while abducting children, because the extra savings is worth the slight risk of the parent or guardian catching me, or the child making a scene.
@StevieD: Hey Stevie, where’s your store? I’m coming and I’m bringing my video-camera-cellphone and my lawyer’s on speed-dial. Let’s see who wins.
This Michael Righi guy stuck up for his rights UNDER THE LAW. Good for him.
Bad for him that he did it on an awesome Saturday for watching college football. I find that Tuesday mornings are the best day and time for serious acts of liberty-protecting.
See, they may only be able to ascertain your name, age and address, but they then need to verify it somehow. And how do the police verify those things? With a photo ID that lists them, a driver’s license. He technically didn’t have to show them, but the officer then was within his rights to not believe him and take him back to the station to confirm.
This is about rights on some level, but it’s also about principle. If you refuse to show your receipt and then your driver’s license, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that things probably won’t go well.
/Used to be a cop.
//Cops don’t like being told what the law is, even if the person telling them is correct.
@Dreamworks:
“See, they may only be able to ascertain your name, age and address, but they then need to verify it somehow. And how do the police verify those things? With a photo ID that lists them, a driver’s license. He technically didn’t have to show them, but the officer then was within his rights to not believe him and take him back to the station to confirm…
/Used to be a cop.
//Cops don’t like being told what the law is, even if the person telling them is correct.”
First, no, it was not within the officer’s rights to take him back to the station to confirm. As has been stated, state law says he does not have to provide a license, and he cannot be arrested for not showing ID.
Second, nobody likes to be told an aspect of their job, even if the party telling it is correct, hell even if the party telling it is being a douche. This does not give the the person being told a right to act like a douche and infringe on the other party’s right.
/son of a former cop.
//was raised to alway stand up for what’s right, not what’s convenient.
Someone on slashdot who says they work at this particular circuit city says that the arresting officer is friends with the store director:
[yro.slashdot.org]
I was just thinking, at a big box electronics store, is customer theft that big of an issue? For one thing, you can’t pick up high end electronics without paying for it first. Somewhat expensive items that are easy to pocket are kept in locked cases, oversized bubblepacks, by the cash register, or a combination of the above. CDs and DVDs have the theft prevention device attached. Everything else, I can’t imagine being worth the trouble for either the shoplifter or the store.
And are they really doing us a favor by checking for double scans, especially considering they don’t even look inside the bag. Shouldn’t that happen at the point of purchase, and stores can save the extra $10/hour on a rent-a-cop who’s not even watching for shoplifters because he’s too busy checking receipts?
If electronic stores are really serious about loss prevention, they should adopt B&H Photo Video’s system. You pay for the merchandise, show the receipt, then pick up your purchase. You get walk out with what’s on your receipt, nothing more, nothin less. Plus, they have that cool belt conveyor system.
Uhh… just show your receipt?
@Mary Marsala with Fries: You can tell Stevie’s store… the customer parking lot has employees blocking the doors on all the cars! And, they are probably having a “Going-Out-Of-Business” sale pretty soon.
@Dreamworks: //Cops don’t like being told what the law is, even if the person telling them is correct.
Cops are jocks without a high school sports team. They become cops or soldiers.
@bill51773: That is excellent. Or you could tip them; i’d like to flip as quarter at him and say “thanks, my good man”, while continuing to walk out.
@nickripley: Nice generalization. I’m sure if i made similar generalizations about you – or your lifestyle – you would be up in arms. Keep your resentment to yourself.
My sales girls are going to stand and stare at you for the 45 minutes…
@StevieD: Someone might stare at me? OH NOES!!!111!!
Go ahead and refuse to show your DL to Uncle Leo, he just loves to sit on cars, waiting for it to go into motion so that he can give the driver a ticket for slow-fast-reckless-without a seatbelt etc driving…
Who the hell is Uncle Leo?
The trip to the emergancy room…
I have NEVER had to show a Driver’s License in an ER. Oh wait, I get it. I’m supposed to show my driver’s license so some asshole in a cop uniform doesn’t beat me to death. [sarcasm]Yes, THAT’s the reason I’d be worried about that. Not showing my license.[/sarcasm]
@StevieD: But no. Your logic IS completely flawed.
You are conflating the receipt check to a kidnapping prevention measure to cover your ass, and it simply doesn’t hold water.
@HalOfBorg: I’d like to point out that Costco and Sam’s Club are membership based stores, and they *can* enforce the receipt showing. At public stores like Circuit City (at least in CA, where I live), they canNOT enforce the receipt showing. I always politely decline at Fry’s. I choose to know and exercise my rights as a citizen.
Um what the person should have done is pushed the guard back, slammed the door shut, and driven away. Then plead self-defense. When a stranger follows you to your car and doesn’t let you shut your car door, regardless of how they look, you are in reasonable fear for your safety. The guard should never have left the store, and needs to be sued for punitive damages.
@RON704
Yes, they do.
Nice to know about this.
What some of you aren’t realizing is that in order for the store to have ANY right to question/detain you they must have CONCRETE proof that you have stolen something. Meaning, an employee must have witnessed it or they captured it on video. Other than that, if you do not submit to the VOLUNTARY receipt check (as some people do, its not against the law) they have no right to follow you out or block you from anything. If someone from the store was doing that, I would naturally do the same, call the police, thinking the police would know what to do. And they did…but then, the cop himself violated Ohio law (if ya read the post, it says under Ohio Law you do not have to produce a drivers license, even if the cop needs to verify). Granted, he might’ve made a mountain out of a mole hill, but the argument here is if he DID ANYTHING WRONG. Which, he didn’t, by law.
oh christ. someone call Abraham Lincoln, we need freedom from something or another.
So to all of the posters that gleefully point out that writing “see ID” on your credit card invalidates it, makes you liable for fraudulent charges, etc. Did you even once stop and think that maybe some of us are smart enough to BOTH sign the card AND write “see ID” on it? It’s a big piece of plastic kids, and sharpies write on plastic really well.
As to this particular incident I agree with the one or two other people who have pointed out the store receipt policy and illegal detention are not the important story here, the cop not knowing the law and arresting someone on basically false charges is the real issue. Let’s hope a lawsuit against that officer/precinct knocks a little sense into their heads. However, at the same time I lament that any monetary awards to Mr Righi as a result will likely be coming from taxpayers. The cops screw up and the rest of us pay for their ignorance of their own job? Any compensation should come from that officer’s funds.
I bring “throw down” receipts from purchases in other stores and give those to them while I keep wallking.
This would be a great eBay business, sell fake but embarassing receipts to give them on your way out.
@ron704:
your insurance company
show your stupid receipt and SHOW you are a “loyal customer” who is not deceiving the company into thinking you’ve stolen something.
Honestly…if you refuse a search, you obviously stir up the notion that you have something to hide. Stop bitching about how horrible it is that a company is trying to protect its investments.
Here is what Ohio state law actually says:
[codes.ohio.gov]
(E) The officer, agent, or employee of the library, museum, or archival institution, the merchant or employee or agent of a merchant, or the owner, lessee, employee, or agent of the facility acting under division (A) , (B), or (D) of this section shall not search the person detained, search or seize any property belonging to the person detained without the person’s consent, or use undue restraint upon the person detained.
That means even if the employee saw the guy walk into the store, grab an item off the shelf, stuff it in his pants, and walk out the door without paying – he STILL wouldn’t have any right to search him, his property or demand to see a receipt. If he has no right to search a bag or see a receipt without the customer’s consent, he certainly has no right to detain that customer for not giving consent.
Looks like the City of Brooklyn, Ohio dropped the charges in cooperation of Mr. Righi’s statement that the officer did nothing wrong.
Link: ClevelandPlain Dealer
I’m happy Mr. Righi walked away unscathed.
But it looks like the Brooklyn Law Director, Hillary Goldberg got what she wanted, a quick and cheap (read: free) avoidance to what many have said was blatant violaton of Mr. Righi’s rights.
I hope for the sake of folks who live and travel through the city of Brooklyn, Officer Arroyo was reprimanded…with extreme prejudice.
Personally, I think this is stupid.
I don’t see why it is such a big deal to show your receipt when you are walking out of the store. If I worked at CC and asked to see someone’s receipt and they tell me no, I’m thinking they’re a thief.
This guy is just trying to get some attention.
@Jesse in Japan:
You need to at least read some of the blog or others’ comments, as this has been answered in a number of places.
In particular, see the arrested’s blog entry of “September 1st, 2007 @11:34PM EST Update.”
Your question may have some theoretical basis in some context, but not at all in this one. It’s all about what you are required to show or tell an officer who asks you to identify yourself. In particular, the law in the state of the arrest (Ohio) specifically says you don’t have to provide a driver’s license to “prove” your identity to the police – the exception is if you’re driving (or just were, or whatever), and this guy was just a passenger. All that he’s required to offer in order to establish his identity to the officer is his name/address/DOB.
You can sign a credit card or any legal docuement with a smile face, heart, x or any other thing you choose. (including the phrase “See I.D.”)It is completely legal. Your signature can be whatever you want it to be, not specifically your name.
As for checking receipts at the door. I usually don’t stop. I simply say “No thanks” and keep walking. The only thing this practice does is cause aggravation to the people who pay for what they want. It does little to stop shop lifters.
I spent over five minutes just this past weekend watching a lady at a super walmart paw through two hundred dollors worth of food purchases because of one item, a $10 pillow, not being bagged. Sort of an invasion of my privacy if you ask me not to mention a little embarassing.
The problem with America is the fact that most Americans have become sheep. The shepherd tells you what you can do, where you can go, etc.. follow the leader. Don’t make waves. Don’t stand up for your rights. Just be a nice little sheep. Yes in a small way this man stood up for his rights. And sir I respect you for being A TRUE AMERICAN and not a member of the sheep clan. The patriot act took some or rights away and the sheep were fine with it.wake up America and stand up for the rights you have left.
shepherd
1. it sounds like the guy was being a difficult douche to begin with.
2. work somewhere where you are responsible for inventory loss and tell me you don’t want to check receipts.
I forgot about this guy. What an attention-whore. I peg him as a future lawyer and member of the ACLU.