Julie would really like to pay her mortgage, but she can’t. Why not? Because when she tried to help her son buy a MacBook, Apple decided to debit $1517.27 from her account without permission. When she called to tell them they’d pulled the money from the wrong card, causing her account to over draft, they apologized and told her they’d fix it. Instead, they debited another $186 from Julie’s account, and another $1517.27 from her son’s account.
Now Apple has over $3300 of their money and they can’t pay their bills. Here’s Julie’s letter to Steve Jobs, which she cc’d to us:
Dear Mr. Jobs:
My name is Julie [redacted]. I would like you to be aware of the disappointing experience my son and I have had with the recent purchase of a Mac Book. I currently own a Mac Book. I really love the Mac products. In addition to the Mac Book we own 5 I Pods. Based on my recommendations, my son, James [redacted], decided to purchase a Mac Book. His first computer. He needed some financial help in buying the computer so I helped him.
This is where my nightmare begins.
Late on July 30, 2007, we used two separate credit cards to make the purchase, total price $1942.15. $1743.15 was to be charged to one card xxx-[redacted] (James’s) and $199 on the second card xxxx-[redacted](mine). This is how we asked for the order to be paid. The order went through without a problem. The order number is: [redacted]
On 1 August 2007, I had a charge pending in my account from Apple for $186.67. I this was not the $199 I expected. The next day, 2 August 2007 I found that Apple had a pending charge of $1517.27 on my account. And that my bank account was charged an overdraft fee of $70.00 for this transaction from Apple.
Needless to say I was very upset. I am a single mother with 3 children and cannot afford to have mistakes made with my money. First, I have never over drafted my bank account, second I have to pay my mortgage and third my account now does not have enough money in it for me to pay my mortgage.
James called Apple on 2 August 2007 and spoke with two different people. The first person, Clint, stated he would process it correctly. Dissatisfied with Clint’s’ response James called back. The second person James spoke with was a supervisor named, Derek. Derek explained to James that they “could not verify the address for card xxxx-[redacted] so they charged card xxxx-[redacted] (mine) for $1517.27 and card xxxx-[redacted] (James) for $25.77 and $212.44. James explained Derek my situation, i.e. the overdraft fee and needing to pay my mortgage. Derek stated that he would credit my account/card xxxx-[redacted] for the $1517.27 plus $150.00 to over the overdraft fee, put another charge through for the $199 and correctly charge card xxxx-[redacted]. I would see this reflected in my account after midnight.
I thought that is fair. I understand mistakes happen, but it was straightened out.
On 3 August I found Apple had charged my account the $1517.27 and $186.67 (total of $1703.94). James’ account had also been charged an additional $1504.94, for total of 1743.15. So, now Apple has over $3300 of our money.
James again called Apple on 3 August and spoke with the “supervisor of the day”. James states her name was Christine or Kristen. He couldn’t remember which. Either way she told James, she saw where things were “pending” but it might take up to 5 days for me to receive the money in my account. I knew this wasn’t true. You can get people their money almost immediately. This was then evidenced to me when I received a credit to my account of $124.23 when I check my account on the 4th of August 2007. Didn’t have to wait 5 days.I have absolutely no idea where this number comes from. $124.23?
Why couldn’t Apple correctly credit my account for the $1517.27 plus $150 (overdraft, Clint stated he would do) and deduct the correct $199?
It is now the 5th of August, my mortgage is late and my bank account is over drafted.
I don’t think I could ever fully express to you my anger and frustration.
The mistake made by Apple in this purchase has caused me and my son great heartache.
I wish you could have seen how excited he was when he was picking out his new computer on line and the order went through. Unfortunately the error and lack of Apple’s ability to correct it in a timely manner has tainted his joy of having his first computer.
I was planning on purchasing another Mac Book for my daughter Lauren, who needs a computer for college. She is going to be freshman at NC State on the 18th of August 2007. I don’t think given the response I have had so far from Apple this far that it would be a wise.
While I am pleased with the Apple product, I am also angered by what has happened and not sure I would recommend Apple in the future.
I would appreciate your prompt response to this issue. I can’t imagine that I will have to wait another 4 days to receive my money and be able to pay my mortgage.
I can be reached via email at [redacted], cell phone [redacted], or at work [redacted] (I work on August 6th 7a to 7p).
Sincerely:
Julie [redacted]
If Apple can refund $124.23 randomly, why not the rest of Julie’s money so that she can pay her mortgage? The foreclosure rate is bad enough these days without adding Julie to the stats!
Psst, not to make Julie’s bad day worse, but this sort of thing is why we recommend buying large electronics purchases with a credit card and not a debit card.
(Photo:What Rhymes With Nicole)
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To clarify my comments – I should have said a debit/credit card directly tied to a bank account. Using it either way will immediately lock up the money in the account. A “real” credit card in my book is one that you pay off every month or accrue interest charges.
Obviously Apple messed up here and hopefully that will be taken care of. That said, I think there are lessons to be learned here about financial responsibility, like not using debit cards to make large purchases, having an emergency fund, and not overspending on a computer and other technology in the first place (if she’s a single parent with three kids and tight finances what is she doing with 5 ipods and an overpriced computer of her own, and encouraging her son who will likely have very little money in college to spend his money the same way?!?).
the problem here seems to be that this woman doesn’t understand the difference between credit cards, debit cards, and bank accounts. she says specifically in her letter that “we used two separate CREDIT CARDS to make the purchase” (caps added). if this is true, apple would have had no way to actually debit her bank account. i think this woman has more problems (financial and otherwise) than apple can be held responsible for.
also, this is just another reason not to use two forms of payment for one purchase. if she had just deposited $200 in her son’s bank account directly, all this could have been avoided. and not to add to the chorus of naysayers, but i would never spend ALL of my savings on a computer. if you’re really hurting for an extra $200, maybe you oughta consider a dell.
also also (double also! woo!), apple is notorious for putting crazy-ass authorization holds on credit/debit cards, so that’s yet another reason to only use credit cards when ordering from them–especially if your bank account is real tight. i can’t tell you how many people contacted us about getting $30 overdraft fees for 99 cent song purchases when i worked for itunes. IMHO, you shouldn’t be wasting your money on itunes music if you can’t cover a $1 authorization hold on your bank account, but that’s kind of beside the point. credit cards are your friend.
Who really cares why she bought the computer, who cares how she paid for it, these arguements are pointless. Whats so wrong with buying a computer for your child, thats a pretty high priority for alot of people. She knew how much money she had, and how can some people blame her for not using CC? I don’t use them, I have no need.
@ ZERORAVESON…There is nothing wrong with letting him put $1700 (not $1500) on his credit card if he in fact has the money.
As i said this story has lots of holes….If he had the money available, why didn’t he just pay his mom back? and then let her fight it out over the overdraft fees.
I’m starting to think he didn’t have the money….the $1700 was just his limit on his CC.
Apple made an erroneous charge on my credit card awhile back. It wasn’t a ridiculous amount – something like $40. But it took months to iron out. I was promised that the mistake would be fixed immediately, but it wasn’t. When I called back, I was told that they only process refunds in batches and it could be several more weeks before they got to mine. I asked the rep why I should be paying interest on their mistake – unsurprisingly, they didn’t have a good answer for that one. That’s when I disputed the charge on my card. Here’s hoping this situation gets resolved more quickly!
Note to The Powers That Be: MSGUNDAM84′s comments further illustrate the need for comment moderation. Wasn’t that supposed to be coming soon?
FWIW, I had the IRS suck money out of my checking account without authorization a few years ago. (I authorized a partial payment; they took the whole thing.) I called my bank and complained, they refunded the money, and this was one of the banks that gets excorciated (for good cause) around here. So I’m sure that a less sucky bank would do the same thing. In fact, I don’t use eBay, but I think chargebacks happen all the time among disgruntled eBay/PayPal customers.
@ColdNorth: No kidding. Even though this was the merchant’s fuckup, it’s also entirely her fault for buying something people think she shouldn’t.
Hey. We’re not her. We don’t know the whole situation.
SHUT UP and have a heart. What if it’s you idiot flamers in a fix next time? You’ll want some sympathy, right? How would you feel if everyone figured out a way to make it YOUR FAULT even when it wasn’t?
Uh, if she didn’t plan on paying for the entire computer why did she give them her card info?
If they couldn’t verify the son’s card (I’m assuming because she was on the phone and not him), why didn’t she get him to call them himself? He IS an adult, is he not?
If she was only giving him some $200 towards the total, she should’ve done a bank transfer to his account and had him call for his own stuff.
All that aside, yeah one or the other of them should’ve used a credit card.
Every time I see a complaint letter on Consumerist, I’ve started to play “guess what the commenters are going to jump down the throat of the OP for this time”. It’s getting kind of ridiculous. Mortgage payment or not, I think it’s fair to be upset that your account was charged $1500 more than it was supposed to be. Instead the comments become, “She has poor money management skills”… “What’s she doing spending money when she has a mortgage?”… “She’s being overdramatic”… “She’s a moron for splitting the charge”. It would have been smarter to put it on a credit card rather than debit, but must we get degrade single poster on Consumerist?
@Msgundam84: Man, I just love this. Every time a poster starts their post with “Not to be an ass…” you know it’s about to hit the fan.
Please, by all means, explain how calling a stranger a “bitch” three times (adding “stupid” twice) makes you NOT an ass. The OP didn’t say anything resembling “$100 on this card, $200 on this card, $250 in cash, and the rest I’ll write a check for.” She asked for it on two cards. NOT DIFFICULT. I’ve worked in retail for years and it takes about 60 more seconds to put it on separate cards.
Now run along and troll elsewhere. And I’m totally with MMD… comment moderation please?
You made a payment on a computer knowing you would barely had money to make your mortgage payment and you used a debit card??!!
You are just asking for problems…
What if something else in your life came up? Car trouble, or you found yourself sick and in the hospital, or anything like that. A computer is a luxury not a necessity. And 1700 for laptop is definitely a luxury purchase. You choose to put luxury before your other duties and bills and this is the gamble you take. You should have bought the computer after you paid the mortgage.
This is half apple’s fault and half poor planning and money management on this woman’s half.
Sorry for the jaded response, but I can only care so much about someone who willingly forces a luxury purchase for something during a point where money was tight and knew full well that a mortgage payment was in the near future.
@metalhaze: She was not “asking for problems” when she requested a small amount of the charge to her account. If you read correctly, she asked for $199 on her own account, and her son paid for the other $1500+. Instead she was erroneously charged $1500 more than she should have been. Had she not been overcharged, she would have had plenty of money in her account for her mortgage payment and then some.
@metalhaze: How exactly is Apple making a $1500 charge to her account when all she wanted was $200 taken out her fault?
It’s back to school time, and maybe money’s tight for the time being as she’s buying stuff for all three kids.
Again, she approved $200 being taken out, and $1500+ was. How in the fuck is this her fault?
why not just file an ACH dispute with your bank?
Big purchases like these should be made on credit card and not a debit card.
I have to agree with the folks saying that the lady’s method of payment shouldn’t have mattered. This was a matter of trust between Apple, her son, and her. Yes, she could have bought her son a $200 gift card (and spent the gift card fee), or transfered $200 to his account by check or wire or direct deposit of cash (and spent the money for wire, the time for a check to clear, or the hassle of moving cash from one bank to the other). But she figured, quite reasonably, that when the sales person rang up the charges on the two cards, she would be debited $200 and her son debited the rest.
Naive? Possibly. Unreasonable to expect? Hell no. I always expect that if I sign for $200, that’s how much I’m going to be charged. And having some sanctimonious jerk telling me ‘you should have had more in your bank’ to cover for Apple’s screwup just annoys the hell out of me.
$1900 is a large sum for all but the richest of us, doubly so when it’s not budgetted. She budgetted for $200, not $1900. Had Apple done the right thing, she’d have her mortgage amount plus whatever was left. As it is, she’s got negatives in her account, not because she spent more than she had, but because Apple took out more than they were entitled. And on top of that, what’s worse is that they stuck her son for $1700, so now they’ve got $3,600 of hers and her son’s money for a product that only cost $1900.
Bottom line? Apple was what f*cked this up. Had they done a simple courtesy call, this could have been all averted. But for want of a dime and 5 minutes of somebody’s time, Apple’s having to give up $150 of their money and the woman got fraudulently charged $1700 (she didn’t authorize that charge, so by all rights, she could scream fraud).
@Hawk07:
There are many perfectly valid reasons to buy a more expensive laptop for a college student. Total cost of ownership is often much lower with better-quality computers; this is especially true for laptops. Furthermore, depending on one’s major, a powerful computer may be necessary for coursework. Try running Solidworks on a 3-year-old bottom-of-the-line laptop and see if you still think it’s foolish to buy the right machine for your needs.
And once again, we see that being judgmental is more fun than silly things like reading.
It took way too long for the victim haters to come out
@Dan25: If it was done on a Debit card she can file a Regulation E claim and have the money put back into her account within a day or two. Why hasn’t she contacted her bank about this?
Wow, there are some real class acts around here. I can’t believe some of you people.
Julie, I hope it all gets worked out. I sympathize.
For those who were asking, we editors hear your concerns about comment moderation and will be addressing them as a group when Ben returns from vacation. Yes, we are all paying attention to what goes on in these threads until then.
Please feel free to share your concerns with me at marco [at] consumerist.com, I’m very interested in hearing your thoughts.
“I am a single mother with 3 children and cannot afford to have mistakes made with my money.”
I can, however, afford two Macbooks and 5 iPods.
Apple is at fault. They ran a charge that was not approved by the card holder. A courtesy call would have been in order. There’s a reason you provide retailers with your contact information (and it’s not so that you can receive product offers at dinner time).
Julie of course had numerous methods to prevent this situation (many already suggested by other people), but she trusted Apple to do the right thing the first time. The wisdom of her purchase decision given her tight budget is irrelevant whether it was for $200 or $2000. That is a wholly separate issue.
However, we’re past the point of prevention and dealing with damage control. There should be a means to dispute the charge, but unfortunately with debit cards the money is already gone and she’ll have to wait on a refund. The bad news is that she’s late on her mortgage payment.
One method that could have prevented this which has not been mentioned yet, is to use a virtual credit card number. It has a short expiry period and you even have the option of limiting the charge amount.
If Apple is smart about how to handle the situation, they’d refund the correct amount plus the fees Julie assessed because of Apple’s poor billing. How they handle the situation in terms of policy changes is up to them, but I would suggest that they train their sales staff that orders should be put on hold should a billing problem arise and that a customer be contacted to rectify the problem. Julie should hopefully learn to treat her debit card with more respect and understand its pros and cons.
While on the topic of moderation: This post’s comments brilliantly display commenters’ ability to rehash the same 5 things on what should have been done in this situation, and argue how it is or isn’t the consumer’s fault. Maybe a list should be tacked onto the end of the post and updated with points, tips, do’s and don’ts relating to the article or complaint, and it can be understood that they are recommended precautions, not tirades against the consumer’s intelligence.
Or, if we don’t like that kind of organization and maintenance, at least people can understand that, even if someone my rudely be blaming the consumer for something, the point may be a valid precaution, no matter whose fault it is.
Not sure why people are jumping on her case… She was only agreeing to put a 199$ charge on her card. I bet 99% of us would be screwed if what we believed to be a 200$ charge turned into a 1500+ charge. As a college-age male, I can attest that, unfortunately, my finances usually only leaves a few hundred to spare here and there. If I got hit with a 1500$ debt on something that should have cost 200$ I’d be S.O.L. Most people here are probably the same. I mean, half of America is a paycheck or two away from homelessness.
SHAME on anyone to blaim her or point to her spending habits. Yes it would be ridiculous IF she was buying a laptop and budgeting for her mortage and somehow messed up, but the clear party to blaim here is squarely APPLE.
as for you, Msgundam84: You seriously think a bank would float you 1500? SERIOUSLY? I practically have to toss a salad to get a 30$ overcharge taken off my account. For some odd reason I smell teen angst. Or maybe it’s early-twenties angst. But it’s stinky none the less.
As a former billing manager, it really is just as immediate to do a refund as it is to do a credit card charge. Yes sometimes it does not show up right away depending on float times for banks or depending on if its clearing a bank after 5pm eastern, but otherwise its right away.
Many times its a company’s internal processes that prevent a refund from going out right away. Some customers are habitual about returning goods and are flagged by some retailers. Others ask for refunds in a check form rather than a simple return to their debit or credit card.
As a personal policy running a billing department, if its our fault, we refund the overdraft too. It’s all going to depend on the ethical code the company has.
Good luck… Apple seems like a good company and should fix this issue. Next time you need a laptop and this may happen, you do know Windows laptops are about half right?
@Crazytree: I realize it’s tempting to just hit “End” and go right to the comment box, but if you’d read the first, oh, couple of paragraphs, you’d know that the son was picking up most of the tab on his shiny new laptop. As for the iPods, uh, maybe they budgeted for them over however long, or maybe the kids kicked in, and she didn’t just buy as many 80GB iPods as she could carry? Just a thought, as the comment was most likely thrown in to illustrate brand loyalty, not to reflect on irresponsible spending.
While yes, Apple boo-boo’ed and was willing to fix it there are a few things the person affected should know.
Regardless of what happens, a credit card company WILL NOT instantly refund an authorization. I believe it holds auto-matically for 7 days, that may have dropped since I used to work in retail (been a long while) but if you authorize a card, and cancel the charge, the authorization will stick for some time.
Second, wasn’t there another option besides trying to charge two cards? That is always confusing to the order entry systems out there a lot of them aren’t used to doing it. A simple mistake like maybe the son’s card was over the daily spending limit (if it was a debit card) so it fails, so by default it’s gonna go to the remaining payment – hers
I’m sure the people questioning the overdraft charges probably don’t realize that yes it puts a hold, and you dont’ get an overdraft, but if other checks/debits come in while the hold is on, and then the hold goes through as a charge -bang, OD charges.
No question that Apple made a mistake (and with a debit card that mistake is a lot worse than with a credit card).
The good news is that she isn’t “late” on her mortgage until her payment is more than 15 days late. She won’t find her credit harmed at all until she has 2 payments due at once on the 1st of the next month.
Hey, just in case Steve doesn’t get through to this e-mail in a timely matter, I sent my e-mail to the following addresses (pulled from a list of Apple PR representatives) and had my phone call within two business days
katiec@apple.com
dowling@apple.com,
lfox@apple.com,
anuj@apple.com
I don’t remember the site (on apple.com) or what exact departments these people are in, but she is bound to get an answer none the less.
Next time I suggest walking to the ATM, swallowing the $1.5 and squeezing out 2 bennies out of the metal teller.
That will save a lot of trouble.
In other news, a lot of people do transactions using their debit cards. My experience teaches me that they always hand out a receipt. And I have learned to double check the amount paid. $12.56 =/= $1,256.00. That saves a lot of trouble too when you catch it right away.
But hey, this is how we learn things: pain is good. It’s not likely to happen a second time. And now I’ll remember to use my trusty credit card. An extra layer of protection.
Here’s a thought too, I don’t think she asked any off us how we felt about her son buying a 2000 dollar computer and her helping him pay for 200 dollars of it. She is simply stating her frustrations with Apple, stating the issues their excessive payment withdrawals have caused, and she is soliciting advice on how to deal with the situation while also venting. Nowhere in the above post or letter do I see anything that says hey fellow consumerists be asses and focus on everything except the actual issue. Oh yeh, and who gave any of us the right to judge other’s financial situations? I’ll bet anything at least half the people in here, me included, have much less than stellar credit. So shush with your judging and snarky comments and give advice if you have anything that might actually be helpful or constructive.
Some majors require different types of computers. At Virginia Tech, last year’s incoming freshmen engineers were required to buy tablet pc’s while art majors are required to buy apple pc’s. So there’s no point in saying, should have gotten a $500 Dell.
Could she possibly go to an Apple Store to get this problem fixed?
@PINKBUNNYSLIPPERS
I was charged overdraft fees by my bank for a pending transaction. The bank “paid” the “pending” transaction by placing a hold on my funds for the amount of the pending transaction. When four checks came through the same day as my direct deposit, the checks bounced, I was charged $160 in fees, the direct deposit went through, the fees were deducted, and then the checks and pending transaction were paid. After a phone call and much comlaining, the fees were refunded. If I hadn’t called, they would not have been.
@ MSGUNDAM84
Why have a debit card if you can’t use the fucking thing? I guess you could do the smart thing and have multiple accounts and pay multiple fees…fucking tard.
@Msgundam84: do we need this kind of person on this site? Honestly.
YAY!! Msgundam84 has been banned! Keep up the good work, mods.
So long MSGUNDAM84, you will not be missed.
I also work in a business where credits are issued, it is up to the bank/credit card company as to when it is returned to the account. I have had customers calling everyday about a credit that had been issued, but was still pending at their bank.
I also have used multiple cards to pay for things, and not for the reasons stated. I do it for the points or bonus that the card gives. If I get X extra points for using my MC and AMEX , then I split the purchase and get the points from both. I also pay the balances in full each month, the credit card companies do not like it, but hey they work the system so why can’t I.