Back when I didn't have a driver's license, I got a non-driver's ID card. Since I was a resident of New Hampshire but living in Boston, it wasn't terribly effective as an identification, but most places would accept it as proof that I was who I said I was and old enough to buy beer. I'm sure New York has something similar that she could use as identification so she doesn't need to use her green card.

I guess I should have read the whole article, but I got bored half-way through. Honestly, though, is it that traumatic to get an non Drivers ID? I think immigrant issue is a red herring, and anybody without a drivers license would have the same problems.

My husband does not drive either - but he still has an ID which is the same format as a driver's license and never once has he been told it won't work as ID. If you hate carrying around your green card so much, get an ID card and you won't have this problem. The ID's have only the information on them that a driver's license has and have the right numbers for the store's computers.

I know consumer-is-god is the modus operandi of this very fine website (something I agree with, by and large, I should add), "RR" just sounds like spoiled brat with her "I HAVE A RIGHT TO RETURN" non-sense.

Umm...No. You have a right to free speech, but to return merchandise, you don't. Most retailers will let you do so to satisfy you and to prompt you to shop with them again. There is no contractual obligation and in those instances where there is a contract or warranty obligation, likely the retailer's lawyers have nailed it down to a science where you're at their mercy.

Having said that, you as a shopper will almost always get your way because ripping-off-shoppers is not a phrase any retailer wants after its name in a headline!

Not for nothin', LPRs DO get social security benefits. We can't vote and we can't get federal jobs...but we do work and pay taxes and thus qualify for the same social benefits as citizens.

Every state that I know of offers "State IDs" for those people that can't or don't drive and thus do not have a driver's license. They are quite common and quite useful. The person who experienced this problem should get one.

That of course does not absolve Victoria Secret, but seriously...

Being a Green Card carrier myself, I have time and again encountered issue of various establishments not accepting Green Card as valid photo ID - I suspect reason is it is sufficiently uncommonly used as PID (despite its widespread presence in US), most clerks / bouncers etc just don't recognise it. (Funnily enough, I never had a problem using a Croatian passport as PID - or Transit Authority (RTD) bus pass, for that matter). Nowadays, I just use my drivers' license, and there is peace in the Middle East.

Amusingly, for those who aren't familiar with 'green cards' - the thing is insanely complicated. Multiple light seal layering, 'bump' code, holo-watermarks and fingerprint of the bearer, a large holo-embossed magnetic cell on the back - if anyone had resources to make one, they'd be getting asway cheaper just bribing INS/USCIS for one.

As for getting a drivers license or state resident registration, I'm not sure about NYC - but I'm fairly sure it is illegal in Colorado for any resident over 18 (16?) to go about without either a drivers' license or state-issued ID card. So, while I can sympathise with this lady's plight, I refuse to do so (calloused that I am) - state-issued ID is hardly hard to obtain.

Jesus Christ, people. This isn't about the practicality of a photo ID in a Driver's License format (which I grant she should consider picking up), but the fact that a retailer (or its mnanager) gets to decide that a Green Card isn't good enough.

Yes, it could have been avoided with a more common ID, but did it need to be avoided when she flashed the Green card?

Not likely, and until Victoria's Secret fixes the problem, they stink to me.

I'm a little shocked the only time she ever has to show identification is once or twice when she goes to Europe. I feel like I'm constantly showing people my state ID.

That said, the rudeness of the staff is ridiculous. A policy can be enforced politely.

she/he (referring to the OP) must (if travelling abroad) have a passport that they use when they know they'll need it, but who brings a passport with them all the time? especially when running to the freakin' mall? mine's safe at home so i don't drop it out of my bag because it's so weird-shaped. kudos on the letter, it was written extremely well, and i'm sorry that they were so rude to you.

Have any of you been to a NY DMV? Let me tell you, it's a field trip that takes up the entire day. I was lucky for taking driver's ed and only having to go to the DMV for pictures, but I still ended up staying on line for hours. Sure, she can suck it up for a day, but maybe she didn't know she could get one of these Non-driver ID, which she knows now and can go get one :)

A photo-id credit card wasn't sufficient? WTH is the use of a photo on the credit card then?

She shouldnt even have to pull out her "green card". But she did and the manager wont accept it? Someone was obviously on a powertrip.

 
 
I can't believe the responses so far. This was entirely and completely unacceptable on Victoria's Secret part. If they ever saw my money before, they would certainly stop seeing it now, just so I could support this woman's boycott. I'm shocked that the replies above this one are siding with VS on this one. The customer had valid ID. If it's government issued, contains her name, birthday, etc, then why the hell is that not good enough? For crying out loud, it's twenty five dollars. The store should've given her the damn refund and figured out how to enter it into their clearly inadequate for use within this country system later. Ridiculous. Completely ridiculous.

Heck, if I had been on line behind her, I would've given her the $25 myself and then returned the bra for store credit, claiming it was a gift, and given the store credit to my girlfriend (which, yeah, wouldn't've done anything for RR's boycott, but it probably would've saved her quite a bit of aggravation that day, and, in doing so, may have prevented her from even starting a boycott in the first place).

So, yeah, that's what I would have done. Definitely. I would've been funny too.

"I'd like to return this. Yeah, uh, it was a gift. Just got it a few minutes ago, actually. Anyway, as you can no doubt imagine, it does not fit, so I'd like to return it. Now, as I siad, it was a gift, so I don't have a receipt, but store credit will be fine. Thanks."

Oh, man. If only.

It's amazing that they would even tell you no, having produced the receipt and card used to purchase it. Apparently they've never heard the term the customer is always right. Generally in retail you want to retain customers, not drive them out. Simply returning such an inexpensive item and saying how they have the policy, but they'll make an exception for you probably would have made you very happy. I'm sure this manager will get an ear full for the attention this will bring on them. I wouldn't be surprised if you get some free stuff out of it.

As for not using the green card as a valid form of ID, that is just plain stupidity. God bless America, hypocrites.

The problem here as far as I'm concerned is that they even require any ID at all. I can understand why they might need the credit card that it was charged to originaly but ID. What if I was ruturning something for my wife who couldn't make it back to the store. This country is becoming more and more of a surveilance society. Pretty soon you won't be able to go anywhere or do anything kind of business without presenting "your papers please", just like Nazi Germany.

As a retail-systems programmer, this screams "poor software design" to me. It sounds like the return software expects a driver's-license-style ID, and will not accept numbers in other formats.

It doesn't excuse the rudeness of the cashier and manager, but it's possible that they have no other way of accepting a return. It sounds like a stupid policy put in place because of stupid software.

@jeffj-nj: I like your style!

I could MAYBE understand why they need ID if she's returning something without a receipt, because they want to track such returns. But if she has a receipt, is returning the item to the same credit card used to purchase it, and/or is willing to accept store credit, I don't really get why they need to see any ID at all, much less a driver's license or state ID.

Well, she tried to return the bra and they wouldn't take it. Since she has the credit card & receipt from the purchase, just call the bank and request a chargeback!

Do you know what Victoria's secret is? She dresses like a slut.

I would try a different store. Perhaps you will get different results.

Also the effort involved in getting the state ID is probably 10 percent of what you expended writing that letter. You have some legitimate beefs but jumping through hoops is the real American pasttime. Happy July 4th ..sigh.

Wouldn't you want to carry around a state ID or a passport in case, I don't know, you wanted to buy alcohol? My husband has a green card and I know for a fact it's not acceptable as ID for alcohol purchases. But plenty of people I know use their passport (which she must have), so couldn't she just carry that with her? And wouldn't it make sense to carry ID besides the green card, especially since she states in the story that she "[doesn't] even like to carry it around with [her]"? (Stupid statement, though -- you MUST carry it at all times if you're a permanent resident -- interestingly, by law residents have to carry ID, and citizens do not).

I'll admit that it sounds like the clerk was a douche, but seriously, it's not hard at all to carry standardized ID so you can have the info the clerks need. If it's not good for beer, makes sense that it's not good for everything. I mean, I wouldn't expect them to accept my birth certificate for ID, even though it's a valid governmental form of ID. And their computers are probably standardized to cut costs and limit fraud, which is a good thing.

Yes, VS owes her an apology for the rudeness of the clerk and manager, but she needs to stop whining about what type of ID is acceptable and just bring a generally-accepted form of ID with her like everyone else.

The problem is that Leslie has a ID. It's a government issued ID. Who brings their passport everywhere with them? Who cares about a state ID. She has a government issued ID, so why should she need to get another piece of ID. I think that the people who are stating, she needs to get a state ID is missing the point. Why is this place asking for only a certain type of ID. It makes no sense. She has shown ID, so give her back her money.

I'm confused...in the states you have to show ID to return something?

Any time I've ever had to return something I just show them the recipt and give them the credit card I used to pay for it with and I'm done.

I had a problem a few years ago with VS refusing to take an exchange (the underwire on a relatively new bra actually snapped in half while I was wearing it). All I wanted was an exchange, but they refused and were incredibly rude to me. However, when I called to complain, the phone customer service people couldn't have been nicer. Not only did they send me a replacement bra, but also a gift certificate (I can't remember the amount, but it was enough to actually buy a few things in the store). I would be surprised if she didn't receive some sort of satisfaction from non-store customer service.

(I say this as someone who actually hasn't shopped in VS for a few years - I now buy higher quality bras that actually fit correctly and generally don't fall apart in the first place).

For 57 years I have never driven a car. This simple fact has resulted in no end of hassles. I had Washington state ID when I applied for my PASSPORT and this was not good enough. THe moron actually photocpoied my VISA card and had my wife write a note that I was who I said I was. My US DD 214 form? Useless, Birth cert.? useless, of course. I have the letter of apology from the state dept following my complaints regarding the poor and insulting service. That green card is 50 times the ID I still have, 'cept that Passport which, get this, the clerk told me I was :lucky" to get. Along with the DD 214 I bet.

Do not get me wrong: Victoria's Secret's treatment of customer and sales rep's & manager's behavior: unacceptable (or at least it should be) in a consumer society.

But.

I know for a fact that many businesses do not accept Green Card as Photo ID - I was even warned about that by USCIS interviewer after I got approved for mine. And while I do not understand why USGov doesn't do something about it (except for them not giving a rat's ass about immigrants), the scenario is so perpetually-occuring and so often mentioned that no GC holder should be allowed to be victimized just because they never bothered to get informed.

Also, the straw that broke the camel's back: if one wishes to live and operate within a society, one should ensure one has the ability to do so. It is far from reasonable to rely on one's foreign passport and "photo credit card" as means of personal identification. It is far from unreasonable to expect the same person to spend an afternoon and a minute amount of cash to acquire a drivers' license or a non-driver state ID in order to insure seamless integration into existing system. Expecting special treatment because one cannot be bothered to acquire proper and infallibly accepted form of ID is no less ridiculous than a retailer expecting a birth certificate, DNA sample and three eyewitnesses to process a $25 refund.

@faust1200:
 
No, do YOU know what Victoria's Secret is? They sell more than just "sluttly" lingerie. They also sell a wide variety of completely "accpetable in your world" plain-jain bras and panties, both of which, my girlfriend insists, are amoung the most comfortable available.

I can't tell by your screenname if you're male or female. If the former, I suppose this information will serve only to possibly prevent you from sounding ignorant in the future. But, if you're female, maybe try giving the store a second chance. You may thank me.

Of course, you may also piss off RR, and I'm on her side right now, so wait at least long enough to assume that RR's elevated request to VS CEO's has reached a satisfactory conclusion before rushing off to buy those new comfy undies.

PS: The aforementioned girlfriend also has one of those outfits I assume you're under the impression makes up VS's entire line of merchandise, and it's wonderful! That is all.

I don't understand the "doesn't accept this number format" excuse. Because state drivers licenses all have DIFFERENT number formats. My Illinois one has letters and numbers, and is long and has dashes in it. My old Texas one was just a dozen or so digits. I'm pretty sure my New York one was also different, although that was a long time ago. Unless, I guess, VS also won't let you return something if you live in another state.

So if the system can take into account all those different formats, I see no reason why it couldn't accept whatever form the number on a green card takes.

Victoria's Secret's completely in the wrong here. There is no need for a license in the first place, and the credit card with her picture should have sufficed.

I'd be interested to know what race the poster is, as it wouldn't surprise me at all if she was denied solely because she's middle eastern looking. Call me cynical if you must.

 
Oops. "plain-jain"="plain-jane". Sorry. That was dumb.

"I was reduced to tears as I stormed out of the store though a chaotic crowd of weekend shoppers. Yes I had caused a scene, and yes, I was utterly embarrassed."

I'd hate to see what happens when you're faced with a true crisis.

it's times like these that i think a little organized "retail disobedience" is in order. get a load of ppl to go into that location, buy ~$100 of stuff, leave the store & then have every one come back at the same time to swamp the store with refunds...without the "proper" id.

the only way to combat policies like this is to expose their idiocy.

I would not have stormed out in tears, I would have stood in front of the cashiers, called my credit card company, and initiated a chargeback. I would then remind the manager that it would cost them a lot more than the cost of the bra to deal with a chargeback, while the result is the same for me: I get my money back.

The point here is not if she has a Green card or Not. The point here is what as a consumer we can do to stop this type of abuse from the corporations. Today is Victoria Secret tomorrow maybe Walmart.

@Kimsama

How is a form of identification granting permanent residence by the U.S. Federal Government not considered standardized ID? I don't think it would occur to your average person that only a driver's license or non-driver's license state ID count as valid, "standard" forms of identification.

VS asked for photo ID. She provided photo ID. She had a receipt, the card the purchase was made on, and several forms of photo identification. She was trying to return a bra, not apply for a mortgage loan. Completely unacceptable on VS' part, and I hope she gets some compensation for her trouble from corporate.

Having said that, I'd probably get myself a state ID after this fiasco for practical reasons, but she shouldn't need to.

_Charge_back_. The store allowed for returns within a set period, you attempted and was denied a return. Charge back the purchase and keep the merchandise!

Victoria's Secret bras suck. All the ones I've owned have fallen apart! They are shit bras(fraying or wire sticking out/breaking) with a big mark-up!I just go to Target or Kohls for my bras.
Now when I do splurge I go to [www.agentprovocateur.com] instead of VS.

I love stores like Target that keep your purchase information in their system for like 30days so you can return stuff without a receipt.(Make sure you have the card you made the purchase with though)

I occasionally used my military ID when asked for ID (back when I had one) and was actually denied entry to a bar because they didn't recognize it (I was over 30, so I wasn't even close to the limit -- except maybe too old). Needless to say, I found a better place to spend my pitiful money.

@RonDMC: Hey, don't blame me, I'm not the government. I don't know why that's the policy, but I do know from having an immigrant for a husband (and as andros said above), that the USCIS gives you the rundown of what your green card can and cannot be used for. Not knowing what you can use it for is like not knowing the law -- I wouldn't recommend it if you want to avoid crappy situations. (Most states will display on their state websites what ID is acceptable for specific situations).

So maybe it wouldn't occur to your average person, but a resident (or someone who had to go through the ordeal to get a green card with them) would know about it.

Regardless, it's pretty silly that VS didn't accept it, but they probably wouldn't accept other forms of photo ID either, like a student ID. That's a crappy return policy on their part, but I assume it's set up that way to protect against fraud (not sure how much fraud is being committed in the "returning bras" arena, though, hahaha). Complaining should help rectify the sitch.

But still, she should get state ID (or carry her passport) if she wants to do stuff like buy alcohol (and really, who's buying lingerie without buying alcohol? They go together like a horse and carriage ^_^).

So the cashier/manager being rude to her was inexcusable...but I highly doubt these people got to choose what types of IDs work with the return system and what types don't. Chances are the system requires entry of info from the IDs and, though it's dumb, indeed deems the numbers from student IDs and green cards invalid.

Les Wexner is probably the person who can do something here, not the manager in the store.

RR says that she knows she could get a state issued non-driver ID card, but hasn't NEEDED it. Read her 2nd to last paragraph. If all of her forms of ID have been sufficient before, it seems silly to suggest that she's an idiot for not having it.

She could sure use a lesson in writing succinct complaint letters.

This is the best written complaint letter that I've seen in quite sometime. Really, it seems like quite a few of the letters posted on the Consumerist are riddled with misspellings, run-ons and gramnmatical horrors (much like my post). I think it is always to the consumers benefit to state their grievance in a clear and comprehensible manner.

While I understand the desire of retailers to try to prevent fraud by asking for ID, but seriously...? They had to be a bunch of bitches over 25 lousy dollars? The manager couldn't just make an "executive decision" and make the return?

This reminds me of when I was in the Sir Force and tried to use my military ID to buy beer when I was on leave. The shop owner took one look at it and handed it back to me, shaking his head. I had to use my drivers license because he didn't recognize the military ID. That just made me laugh.

I can't believe the amount of people here that are actually telling her she should be expected to carry around a drivers license or a no DL state ID. That's ridiculous. As for the CO law previously mentioned requiring that, that's also ridiculous, but if that's the law, well that's the law.

I don't know the first thing about carrying a green card and using it as valid photo ID. If it's standard practice to not consider it standard photo ID, that's fine. But I do know a little about non DMV issued ID, and that's because I ran into problems using a military ID many places. I understand people are confused by it if they don't see it often, but I've had people come out and tell me "I can't use that, it has to be government ID" only for me to respond with "That is a United States military identification card, it doesn't get more government than that."

Usually after some pressure they accept it, but I've had many places tell me "it doesn't have a drivers license number, I can't take it." I've pressured managers/bouncers/whoever to show me where in their terms it state's I must show "a government issued ID card that contains a drivers license number" and a few times I've given up the struggle. If they want to make showing a DL/State ID card mandatory, announce it and follow the rule, but don't give me some BS about government ID and then not accept it if it doesn't fit what you thought you wanted.

/rant

@enm4r: I agree that the bars that didn't accept your military ID are wrong. At least according to my state's laws for alcohol purchases:

Types of Acceptable ID
The acceptable types of identification for determining age are: valid driver's license issued by any state or Washington, D.C., armed forces identification card, U.S. passport, foreign government visa, or a valid photo identification card issued by Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles.
(3 VAC 5-50-20) (from VA's state page).

However, it also states on the same page that a green card is not acceptable.

As someone in a business that checks I.D. with about 80% of the transactions I do, I know that many companies have policies on acceptable forms of I.D. My company only accepts a NON-EXPIRED driver's license, state issued I.D. card (looks like a DL but isn't) or a military I.D. No other form is acceptable.. not your work I.D., not your library card, not your credit card that has a picture on it and NOT YOUR EXPIRED DL or EXPIRED state issued I.D. That's our policy. If you can't abide by it, shop somewhere else. This policy helps me keep my job and keeps prices lower because it prevents fraud - fraud that costs companies millions of dollars a year and that cost gets passed on to who? YOU, the customer.

RR was dead right.
I don't think the customer is always right, but in this case she was.
Here we have a failure of corporate policy, plain and simple. In the quest for marketing data, they forgot they are in the business (as all businesses are) of customer satisfaction.
Why do they want an ID? So they can make sure to pepper you with catalogs and keep track of your spend and return habits to help marketing drones find ways to get more of your dollars.
Don't shop there anymore if they don't apologize and refund your money. Period.
Companies today think it is acceptable to force people to give information so they can try to get you to spend more money. I get a freakin' catalog from Ebay every month. A catalog. From an on-line auction site.
You want to save the environment? Stop sending me a paper catalog to a site I use to buy cheap crap for cheaper. I know I can buy stuff there. That's why I have an account. I don't need inspiration to shop at ebay.
This system is a breakdown at the corporate level.
I shop at a store called kohls. Why? Because all I need to return something is my receipt.

@jeffj-nj: I'm happy for your girlfriend, but I've never had a bra from Victoria's Secret that fits well - not the frilly fun stuff and not the "plain-jane" stuff. Maybe they do if you fall near the middle of the body shape bell curve, but if you're near the ends (say, large cup size and small band) you usually can't find your size, and when you can it just doesn't work. That's been my experience at least. And I've also had issues with their price-to-quality ratio - $45 for a crappy bra? Forget it - I'll spend $10-$20 more on a Wacoal that fits and will last me for a few years.

So as not to have a completely off-topic post, I agree with the customer. We're only hearing one side of the story, of course, but it's ridiculous that a receipt with the relevant credit card isn't enough. Especially when she produced photo ID proving that she was the card's owner. From one of the posts above, it sounds like she should call corporate to get some closure.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most citizens have never even seen a Green Card before. I only had one friend in college that had one, so I have seen one, but I don't think I've seen one since. I was also going to mention the different formats in different states.
[www.diogenesllc.com]
It would be a messy piece of regex to parse all the formats.

There are multiple issues here. First we have a retail store refusing a return despite RR's production of her original purchase receipt and credit card. Their "new" return policy requires photo identification even with a receipt. WHY? Issue number two is them refusing to honor the legitimacy of her green card. That is just flat out wrong. I don't care how easy it is to get a state issued ID, but why should she have to? Just to satisfy an underwear store's return policy? Third, those of you who say she doesn't have a "right" to return the bra, well I'm fairly certain, that like every other retail receipt, there is a return policy on the back of her receipt that sets forth the terms and conditions of a return with receipt. That can certainly be construed as creating a contractual obligation on the part of the retailer to honor that return statement assuming RR met all the conditions. I highly doubt the return policy on the back of the receipt says anything about the types of photo ID VS deems acceptable. Wake up people, this is a huge privacy issue let alone just horrible customer service and on some level, plain and simple discrimination!

Sorry, I just read the article again, and I absolutely love the last paragraph about a biometric retrun system. She is dead on. This is where we are headed people!!