I actually agree with the lawsuit. It is well known, particularly by auto manufacturers, that the EPA mileage estimates are a bunch of hooey. Yet they knowingly continue to advertise their product using this inaccurate information.

If anyone were too be sued here, I think the only logical choice would be to sue the EPA. I don't see how the blame can be pinned on Honda for using the EPA mileage estimates. Even though most people know that the EPA estimates are not realistic, they are still the only accepted forms of mileage estimates. Honda shouldn't be blamed for passing on information obtained from a government agency.

That being said, there should be no suit here at all. I feel that every reasonable person knows that the mileage estimates aren't reliable. Not to mention that there are so many other factors involved here such as how the guy drove his car. Maybe he drove it aggressively. Maybe he drives up hills a lot. Regardless, Honda shouldn't be sued for saying what the government tells them to.

Oh, and also, since I didn't make it clear, the EPA estimates are actually required to be displayed on every new vehicle sold. It's not like Honda had a choice on whether to not display the estimates or to come up with their own and display them instead. By law, all new cars must display the EPA mileage estimates.

Ptkdude, it's illegal for them to advertise their product using any other fuel economy numbers.

32MPG? Wow, my 2002 Hyundai Accent is averaging 35mpg highway and probably around 30mpg city. So what's the advantage of a hybrid then?

It's the law to display the EPA estimates, but not to bleed their customers out of an extra $7000 for mileage claims they know are false.

You can claim Honda was just obeying the law, you can claim the EPA is just doing their job. But this kind of underhanded advertising is simply unacceptable, and someone has to be held accountable.

I'm rarely a fan of these kinds of lawsuits, but if this is what it takes to get the system changed, then so be it.

It should be noted though that I'm currently in the process of finding a new car, so I think I'm probably a little jaded on the whole situation.

What a moron. This idiot ranks right up there with the $54 million pants judge.

Any reasonable person know you don't get the advertised mileage.

The article doesn't say how much he's asking for, but since it's a class action suit, you can bet it's a lot.

(As others have pointed out, it's not legal for Honda to use any other numbers in their advertising. Expect this one to get tossed out long before it reaches trial.)

Actually, I have always gotten the EPA figures (or at least within a couple of mpg) on every car I have ever owned. On a couple of cars (BMW 325 and Toyota Avalon) I managed better than EPA on the highway figures. Of course, I am talking about times when I drove normally which, for me, is still not driving easy. I tend to out-accelerate most other cars and drive about 5-10 percent over the speed limit. Maybe I have just been lucky...

It may be possible to reach 49 mpg in a Civic hybrid, provided the car is driven to maximize fuel efficiency. I know I have read posts in other forums where the owners have claimed to do so.

@csmcdonald: There is no advantage after you factor in the high cost of entry. It saves a nominal amount of fuel but costs a lot more money.

Not to mention that over its lifetime, the Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. (Batteries, two engines, shorter expected lifetime, and toxic chemicals used in hybrids all play a role.)

@TexasAg03: I have a Passat with the 2.0 turbo engine. EPA estimated highway mileage was 32 MPG. When driving gently on a 55 MPH highway, I can get 36-39 MPG pretty regularly.

My truck (Chevy Silverado 1500) was advertised at 21 MPG highway. Best I can do is 20.

The EPA estimates (at least until recently) were complete fabrications. They gave you a general idea of the actual mileage you'll get, but for different vehicles, the real world will give you wildly different results. Certain vehicles will regularly exceed the estimates, and others will never get that mileage.

I agree with Bulldog previously--anyone knows EPA estimates are hooey and no one ever gets what they are rated at. I sold VW's in the 80's (diesel Rabbit anyone?) and people always complained that they didn't get the EPA figures.
I feel a sense of smugness for the guy who would spend that much more and then complain about the mileage.

I'm with BULLDOG9908, My GTI and 2.0T Jetta both return manufacturer claimed mileage when driven at legal speeds on the highway. My Hybrid Camry does so as well (per highway, in town, and combined) - thus I'm always a little confused when people assert with all certainty that EPA figures are complete bunk.

He should have bought the non-hybrid...I average 35 mpg in my '06 Civic. Of course, I suspect that if John True spent more time focused on his driving and less on frivoulous lawsuits he wouldn't have this trouble. Obviously, his lawyer's ego is creating drag.

I own a 03 Honda Civic Hybrid. I love it. The added benefits of a hybrid also include auto-switching the engine off at a stop light and (for the newer hybrids) running solely on the electric motor

@Tom Chambers over Mark Jackson: And if they know the EPA numbers are a bunch of crap, they shouldn't advertise with them.

I own a 2006 gasoline civic with manual transmission and I get 35 mpg in mostly city driving. What the hell is this guy doing in his car?

@Bulldog9908:

Not to mention that over its lifetime, the Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. (Batteries, two engines, shorter expected lifetime, and toxic chemicals used in hybrids all play a role.)

Yes, it's probably best "not to mention" that talking point because it's a canard that has been thoroughly debunked. The "expected lifetime" numbers were seemingly pulled from thin air, and the environmental impact of manufacturing was vastly overstated relative to impact incurred by vehicle usage. At times, the author(s) of the "Hummer beats Prius!" white paper seemed to not even understand the scientific units being used. Details are available here, with another excellent article here and a bit more analysis here. And here's a link to the original "Dust to Dust" report, along with the author's rebuttals to some of the ensuing criticism.

This is beside the point of mileage figures, which can indeed be misleading. I support the guy's lawsuit. I don't think he'll win -- the case seems to be based on a very fine semantic distinction -- but it should bring attention to the fact that people need to research real mileage figures for their cars. It's counterproductive for both the auto industry and the environment if people feel like they are being duped by mileage claims on either end of the efficiency spectrum.

Great Lawsuit for the wrong reason. Everyone knows the EPA numbers are bullshit. He shouldn't sue because the mileage isn't as advertised, he should sue because his hybrid is giving him gas mileage he could have got in a non-hybrid. They hype these hybrid pieces of shit as great for the environment, and terrific on the wallet, and that's more full of crap than GW Bush's head.

Hybrids cost more than ICE-only cars. Many-to-most have about a five-year lifespan due to the batteries, which cost such a staggering amount of money to replace, you'd be better off buying a whole new car. The odds of you recaping the higher price for the car through better gas mileage is slim, even less so once the warranty expires because repairs are more expensive on a hybrid.

Want to save money on gas? Get a Yaris, Fit, or something similar. Hell, my Matrix almost gets as good gas mileage as his hybrid.

I'm wondering what the guy was doing to get such low mileage. I have a 5 year old Honda Civic and I'm getting 28-30mpg. I've known a couple of people who own the hybrid and they would tell me that they usually got about 40mpg. So... I'm really wondering about his terrain and driving habits.

@Johnny: Thanks... you beat me to the punch. Science FTW.

@Bulldog9908:

Our Passat turbo gets about the same range as your getting. The worst mileage was with four people in the car and every bit of available space packed with gear. We did 32-26mpg on the highway overloaded.

We paid for that vehicle in total about equal to what this guy paid in extra costs to get a Prius vs. a regular car.

Next on my list is a used VW beetle TDI diesel. Rumored to get 49-55mpg.

I've always found the EPA estimates to either be accurate to a little low. I average about 38-41 mpg in my 2000 Echo, highway and city combined. Highway is usually about 43-45 mpg. My previous car, a 1995 Metro got very similar mileage, both in line with EPA estimates.

Here to reiterate the EPA estimates. It's the US government that generates them, and it's the US government that forces manufacturers to display those values on the window stickers, and it's the US government that forces the manufacturers not to advertise any other values.

The EPA test is *not* accurate for hybrids, and it's no longer accurate for conventional engines, either. It *only* measures exhaust output at a variety of engine RPM's the simulate speeds. There's no accounting for rolling resistance, such as that which is minimized by aerodynamics or low rolling resistance tires.

Also CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) is calculated using these EPA values.

As for EPA values, if I drive sanely at 65 mph, I can easily get 29 mpg in my car with a 24 mpg highway EPA estimate.

I think the "will vary" v. "may vary" argument is a sure loser. Putting aside that it's a bit pedantic, it probably IS possible to attain the EPA esimate.

@csmcdonald: The advantage? Snobbery, of course.

While I'd wholeheartedly agree that the EPA needs a complete overhaul of their MPG certification, it needs be said that the majority of people who own hybrids don't drive them properly. See, the trick is that hybrid vehicles CAN get similar mileage, but you've got to use special techniques while driving to erk out the extra miles (for instance, you have to take special care to keep your speed steadily under 70MPH while driving on the interstate, or allowing the car to come to a rolling stop as opposed to using the brakes).

What they don't tell you is that the majority of these techniques will save you just as much petrol when applied to a standard vehicle. I routinely see 30 MPG in my 1993 Nissan 240SX just by observing some common sense driving techniques.

Seeing as how he payed $28k for a Civic Hybrid, you kinda know Mr. True ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, so how would he know his lawsuit is 110% baseless, especially considering he's targeting the wrong party (i.e. Honda which, as has been pointed out, is required by law to use the EPA's currently hyper-optimistic estimates in advertising and on the window sticker)?
Also, to get 32 mpg from a Civic Hybrid, I'd think you'd have to be driving the living shit out of it (nailing the accelerator from a standstill, cruising at 80+, slamming on the brakes at the last possible second, etc.). But as I said before, if he's dumb enough to pay that much for a Civic Hybrid, he's probably dumb enough to assume it's the car that's the problem and not him.
If the judge doesn't throw this out straight away, my faith in this country's legal system will dwindle just a little bit more, and that's saying something.

He should be suing the U.S. Government for allowing testing done in a lab, as opposed to road. [www.fueleconomy.gov]

According to a January 11, 2006 NYT Article, the EPA knows how they allow the estimate to be computer are BS. [select.nytimes.com] and [select.nytimes.com]

The first I remembered the NYT reporting this was on July 31, 2005 [select.nytimes.com]

Estimates also do not factor in that most people drive like assholes, gunning it from redlight to redlight, and from bumper to bumper on the highway, as well as sitting on a freeway during rush hour.

My Honda Prelude's sticker read 22/27 when I bought it. I frequently get between 28 and 31 MPG driving it as a commuter vehicle. Even though I have the ability to drive it around like a semi-asshole (it is a 4-cylinder VTEC), I do not.

i've got to agree. considering that so called 'hypermilers' can get upwards of 80 mpg by manipulating their driving habits on an unmodified hybrid car, i would think it would be somewhat difficult -- nay, impossible -- to argue that the 17mpg variance in his own results wasn't just caused by driving conditions and his own crap driving habits. they don't even need to be crappy -- just accelerating and driving aggressively destroy hybrid mileage.

@Lacclolith:

i should clarify. when i said agree, i meant with YOU! haha.

It IS possible to vary 17 mpg off of the estimates. The more power you ask of the engine, the more gas it will eat. Drive like a lunatic, you'll get bad mileage.

And Consumer Reports can't be trusted to have accurate numbers, they just do surveys and don't correct for driver habits.

The EPA estimates can only be compared to each other, and only for that model year. All it says is: this car will make xx MPG on these tests. Nothing else.

I have always gotten at least EPA fuel economy

You "EPA numbers are optimistic" folks need to do something about your lead feet.

Hybrids lose their advantage when driven long distances at highway speeds, just like this whiny twerp did. They excel in stop-go urban traffic. if you want high economy and drive long distances, get a Yaris, Fit, or a diesel VW when they come back next model year. Jeez, dude, do a little research before dropping that kind of money.

My old Passat got as high as 38mpg at reasonable (well, under 80mph) speeds which was better than the EPA number. My new A4 at best gets 28 despite being essentially the same car, though it's probably heavier being all-wheel drive and the engine is slightly larger (1.8t vs. 2.0t), but that's about the EPA number.

Base MSRP on the Civic Hybrid is $22,600, and the most expensive I could make it on the Honda website is $28,974 and that's only by checking every single stupid option ($1200 body kit? $230 gauge trim kit? $500 CD changer? sure!). Unless this guy really overloaded on the options, he really overpaid for this car. Sounds like he's trying to get out of it by having a lead foot and getting litigious.

Driving style makes a huge difference in mileage (and apparently more so on a hybrid). I've managed to get both 12 mpg (on a race track) and 42 mpg (on a long highway drive with broken A/C) with the same car. Just because he doesn't get the numbers with his car, doesn't mean someone else can't get the higher mileage numbers with his car. Would be easy to test, get one of those crazy hypermilers in his car.

@Tom Chambers over Mark Jackson: From the linked article: "True plunked down $28,470, at least $7,000 more [than] a comparable nonhybrid Civic EX"

32 MPG on a hybrid? This guy must be stomping the gas pedal. Hybrid cars are like regular cars.. If you're constantly flooring the gas pedal, you're going to get crappy gas mileage.

I think this issue has been discussed all over the internet on various hybrid car forums.. You have to change your driving habits in order to get anywhere near the EPA estimates. I guess we can tag this story as "moron driver".

I wonder what fuel consumption Al Gore Jnr was getting when he cracked the ton in his Prius whilst inebriated.

20 miles and two lines per gallon?

How you drive and the kind of traffic you drive in, and the kind of driving you do (stop-and-go city or open highway) all makes a difference in the kind of mileage you get. Going to the carwash brings down your mileage (they leave the car running and it isn't in auto-stop [a feature on my Honda Insight - don't know if it's on the Civic also]). Being stuck in a parking garage...being stuck in traffic...any time you're just sitting there or stop-and-go, you're bringing down your mileage average. My car has regenerative braking (braking powers the battery) and does best if you don't floor it from a stop sign, and if you also don't have a lead foot in general. I learned all this stuff from driving it, but also from the Honda Insight boards where people are extremely helpful.

Everyone knows mileage statements are inaccurate for 'average drivers'. The figures are worked out under exact conditions and probably represent the best possible numbers you could ever get from that car. But they are still a good comparison to other cars that are tested in the same way.

You don't sue broadband ISPs for advertising the fastest possible speeds when you don't actually get that most of the time.

There are so many things that could seriously affect mileage, many aspects of how you drive, many aspects of who or what is in the car, traffic, and such, it would be night on impossible to claim numbers that were even right.

I would kill for an edit button. Night should have been nigh.

I'm so, so glad I work at a VW Dealership. More reality, less fluff.

Just wait until next year. VW has some cool stuff coming. TDI is where it's at.

@csmcdonald: Don't you watch South Park? Driving a hybrid means you get to love the smell of your own farts. It's the smug factor...

My guess is that this guy is a leadfoot, like most drivers and he wants to blame somebody else for his bad mileage.

Or, he's a plant from GM. That could be, as well.

The EPA tested these cars under standard conditions and got this mileage. It is possible that Honda modified the cars causing less mileage, but seems unlikely. Although, anything is possible, GM screwed up their whole fleet back in the 70s to save a few pennies per car.

Just to chime in on how bad this guy must have been driving: In 2005, my wife & I drove from Boston, MA to Myrtle Beach, SC (about 900 miles).

In our 1995 Honda Accord (which was 10 years old at the time), we got about 36 mpg! With 2 large adults and a good amount of luggage, etc!

The EPA also changed their testing standards for the 2008 Model Year. I drive an escape hybrid, which lost about 6-8 MPG from last year to this year. I'm beating it by at least 5 MPG even on a new engine.

Over at www.fueleconomy.gov, the comparison between 2007 and 2008 measurements results in the Civic hybrid getting 40/45 (42 combined) versus 49/51 (50). As for 7K more than a regular Civic likely he payed a premium at the dealer for a hybrid. Like people used to do with the Prius.

i never pay any attention to the EPA numbers. My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it.

@B:
You must be driving a hummer then because that's 0.00198 miles per gallon.

In mixed driving, I get 38 mpg on my Civic Hybrid. When I take a road trip, I hit 50 mpg with no problem.

If I could go back to 2002 when I plunked down my cash for it, I'd get a used Civic instead and throw a big party with the difference in price, especially since I got a new job a few months ago and don't drive to work anymore.

Though "payed" is a word, I'm sure most of you mean "paid."