Chase refused to let Ramsey cash his check without a thumbprint, even though he had called and verified that two forms of identification would suffice. The teller insisted that a thumbprint was required by a “rule.” How official sounding. Ramsey spoke with Heath, the bank manager.
- “Heath informed me that due to the Patriot Act, all negotiable instruments required a fingerprint as proof of my status as a holder in due course.”
Ah, the Patriot Act, that vague catch-all excuse for every vigilante action under the American sun.
Though not a lawyer, we have seen them on TV, so we rushed to find where the Uniform Commercial Code requires thumbprints. Wait a minute, it doesn’t.
Ramsey’s letter to Chase, inside…
JPMorgan Chase,I would like to inform you of the incredulous exchange I had at one of your local branches.
The company I work for currently uses your institution for its financial transactions. In return for my labour, my employer provides me with a negotiable instrument commonly known as a cheque drawn from the funds stored with your company.
Thursday, January the 11th at 5:45 pm, I entered your facility located at 1115 S 800 E Orem, UT 84097 with the intent to recoupe the amount entitled on my cheque.
Before visiting this branch I located the phone number for this facility and called ahead of time to find out what was needed to cash my cheque. I was informed that two forms of identification would be sufficient.
While at the bank, I spoke with a teller who promptly asked me for two forms of identification. I produced these forms of identification. The teller then proceeded to request that I press my thumb onto a pad of ink in order to place a copy of my thumbrint onto the cheque. I politely refused this request by stating “No thank you.”
After providing my signature on this cheque, your teller refused to provide recoupement of the amount shown on the cheque issued from your institution. At this point, I questioned the nature of this refusal as it clearly states on the cheque that funds were to be drawn from this institution. The teller stated that this was due to some sort of ‘rule’. She mentioned that this rule forbid her from lawfully producing the amount shown on this cheque. I requested that she show me some documentation on this policy as I was informed that two forms of identification would be sufficient to prove that I had rights as a holder in due course as per U.C.C. – ARTICLE 3 – NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS ..PART 3. ENFORCEMENT OF INSTRUMENTS
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/3-308.html)I proceeded to speak with the manager Heath who informed my father not 5 minutes before, that two forms of identification were sufficient to prove rights as a holder in due course. I questioned Heath as to why your institution would refuse to provide the recoupement endorsed by my employer and the cheque from your bank. Heath informed me that due to the Patriot Act, all negotiable instruments required a fingerprint as proof of my status as a holder in due course. Which seems to be in violation of U.C.C. ARTICLE 3 which I believe to be the law that federal banks subscribe to in order to conduct business.
I would like to call to your attention Heath’s insistence that the Patriot Act was his reason for denying the recoupement that I believe I am legally entitled to. I feel that this is absurd and I would expect that a manager at your facility would be educated enough to know why he or his tellers would refuse a request of recoupement. I am familiar with the Thumbprint Signature Program. However, I do not believe this holds sufficient legal authority to deny a holder in due course the advancement of this negotiable instrument.
I feel that your company could have treated this situation with more professionalism and that refusing to pay funds from an account drawn through your bank is wrong. I also feel that your employees are not provided with enough training on what is proper and what is not. It seems as if these employees were just quoting policy based on hearsay. This policy has cast your company in a negative light.
I feel that your prompt attention will help resolve this matter.
Nice to see Aaron Burr’s shoot first, ask questions philosophy remains alive and well in the bank he founded. — CAREY GREENBERG-BERGER
Previously: BofA Throws Out Customer Who Refuses To Give Thumbprint
More From Consumerist
-
If The Bank Hands You A Counterfeit Bill, You're Probably Stuck With It
-
Travelers Refuses To Believe Dad Is Dead, Sends Him Check For Mom’s Totaled Car
-
Banks Working On Linking Up Their Payment Systems To Make Person-To-Person Mobile Transfers Easier
-
Walmart Employee: Don’t Blame Cashiers For Requiring You To Show Your I.D.
-
A Chase Bank Teller Makes A Mistake, I Spend The Long Weekend $2,300 Overdrawn
@FLConsumer: Source for that?
Well come on, “The man who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.”
If you are all for a DNA database and have nothing to hide – go to the police and submit your DNA, your thumbprints, and ALL your personal data. Contact the IRS and let them know they have full access to your files. FBI, CIA, NSA as well. After all, you have nothing to hide, right? And since you’re all for it, you should do this to set an example, right? People should be all about it and you should be the first!
Me? Fuck that. It’s not about having something to hide, it’s about PRIVACY. If you’re okay with everything, go ahead and post it all to your myspace profile like all these idiot kids today, and wonder why everyone has no privacy anymore.
@capitalass: lol…now that’s a great idea! you could also dip your thumb in some hot wax & let it dry next time. let them try to match that print.
as usual, the “rules” only work until the criminals they mean to catch find a way around them.
check fraud is sooo 1980′s. credit card fraud is where all the action is today (& it’s costing banks 100 times or more what check fraud costs them).
i could see this as a precursor for using biometrics for card purchases. now you get to give your thumbprint to every cashier at every register in america. & someone will be logging those purchases in a file searchable by print & linked to whatever other records exist out there about you.
I’m stunned that there are actually people willing to hand over their blood, urine, DNA, and anything else requested, to just anyone who asks for it. And without any knowledge whatsoever as to how it will be used. How people that stupid manage to feed themselves is beyond me.
@The Nature Boy:
They could get into my secret lair and dis-organize my papers and redirect my death rays, duh.
If you guys are interested (and it seems like you would be), I am selling custom-made tinfoil hats at a fraction of the retail price. They block out all GPS, RFID, Short-wave, long wave, UHF/VHF, satellite, and infra-red technologies to keep what’s in your brain, in your brain. Unfortunately, I require thumb prints from all my customers before I initiate a transaction with you.
I had a bank request my fingerprint in order open an account at my wife’s bank.
I had two IDs including my passport. But that wasn’t good enough. I asked why and they said because of the Patriot Act (Which only require SOME sort of ID)
So I asked why they needed the thumb print. They had to ask the security chief. We left and they called us to tell me that the chief said ‘because’. We closed the account.
Thief steals checkbook.
Thief writes self check(w/ fake ID).
Checks reported stolen.
Police catch thief because of fingerprint evidence.
True story that happened to me 11/06.
The whole process took about 1 1/2 weeks.
If you’re going to waste your time writing to their customer no-service department, why not waste their time too. Simply Open a free checking account with them. As soon as they open your account, cash the check. Then casually walk over to another teller and close your account. I would do this even if it took 4 hours.
This lets the bank know how passionate you are about your RIGHT to privacy and how idiotic their “system” is to begin with.
Ps. I wouldn’t try this at B.O.A., you may be falsely arrested or tazed or something, that bank is loco.
OK, one more post and I’m out.
That hoary chestnut goes:
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
[Variants exist here: Franklin's Quotes Of course, Franklin said it many times during his life with slight variations.]
It’s important to quote this correctly because Franklin did not say it is never right to give up liberty for safety. Safety and life, are after all essential liberties themselves and must be weighed against others. But to give up a fundamental liberty like privacy for an unproven and small benefit is not a wise choice.
InfiniteMonkeys, Peace out!
@Angiol: http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/onstar.htm I hadnt heard of this myself but google found it in seconds…
M&T Bank in Maryland, (official sponsor of the Ravens, & bank used by the State of MD), would also want to charge you an additional $5.00 for the pleasure of cashing a check written by their customer. (Assumes that you are not their customer.)
Well, I’m off to lift prints off everything in sight, since it turns out you can do so much with them.
And I guess I’ll be wearing rubber gloves from now on. Lord.
@infinitemonkeys:
I never knew that you could change your SSN once in a lifetime.
I know it is not “supposed’ to be used for any other purpose, but our SSN’s are all over the place.
why not just deposit at an ATM? you’ll certainly never find me defending a scumsucking, soulless bank and i understand this fellow was obviously trying to cash a cheque but why waste time even going inside a bank?? just depoist via a machine, draw against existing funds, and save yourself the ignominy of trying to get “service” at a bank.
Some good quotes to consider:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. – Benjamin Franklin
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
>cleggy1969 says:
>
>Thief steals checkbook.
>Thief writes self check(w/ fake ID).
>Checks reported stolen.
>Police catch thief because of fingerprint >evidence.
It’s pretty funny that the thief was enough of a moron to let himself get fingerprinted.
As far as I’m concerned, I don’t have a problem with Chase doing what it needs to do to protect my money from somebody walking in off the street.
I suspect people flipped out like this when banks started requiring photo IDs in the first place…Then two forms if identification.
This happened to me this morning in NYC. I refused to leave my fingerprint with a bank. For what possible reason would you need my fingerprint? To stop fraud? Then why 2 forms of state ID? With photos? I have nothing to hide but this big brother crap has gotten out of hand. No More. This Has Got To Stop!
SOhp101, you’re right on target. As a security consultant working with banks, fraud is the #1 issue here. Nearly ALL banks now have this policy, not because of the Patriot Act, but because of the recommendation from the ABA. The CPA (Canadian Payments Association) is beginning to give the same recommendation. If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn’t bother you. If you are a criminal, the mechanism is now getting into place that can tie you to multiple cases of fraud.
CP3O